[PF Alchemist] Vivisectionist natural attack build

[stack]

Would this work:

The Vivisectionist archetype for the Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist)gives a rogue's sneak attack in place of the normal bombs. Could a level 1 human achieve four natural attacks using both starting feats to take:
1-extra discovery-feral mutagen
Hu-extra discovery-tentacle

To get an attack routine of:
1D8 Bite
1D6 claw x 2
1D4 tentacle (secondary attack)

with 1D6 sneak attack applied to each, assuming flanking?

If so, then add in enlarge person (1st level extract). Seems like a good routine for level 1.

[The Gilded Duke]

Although lovely, I don't think it would work at such a low level. Extra discovery has a prerequisite of the discovery class feature. You don't gain discovery until second level. Would still be a pretty nice third level build.

I guess in the end you would go for Feral Mutagen, Tentacle, Vestigial Arm, Vestigial Arm?

[stack]

Ah, thought that might be a problem. Would you get extra natural attacks with the vestigial arms? Feral mutagen specifies 2 claw attacks, and vestigial arms specifically don't add attacks or actions (though a specific note on natural attacks to clarify this would have been nice, what if your normal arms have natural attacks?).

Oh well, still decent, just not amazing at level 1. Would be a fun combo with chirgeon for a mad doctor build. Wouldn't mind playing that, the character writes itself.

[Luckmann]

Although I'd definitely ask my DM for an extra discovery at lvl 1, The Guilded Duke is right. You need Discovery for Extra Discovery feats and you don't get your first discovery until lvl 2.

You can always try to sneak it past him, though. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Oh, and Tentacle specifically don't grant you an extra attack. You can choose to use it as an attack, but there's no extra attacks, no.

Edit 2: Screw the tentacle and ask if you can play a Ratkin. Not only does it already have a Bite attack, but it also allows you to transmit diseases through bite attacks.

[stack]

Bah, it would be much better if it worked as a normal secondary. Still gives the creepy look and can hold potions/grapple. You would eventually look odd with four arms, two wings, and a tentacle though.:smalleek:

[The Gilded Duke]

The Vestigial arms don't give any natural attacks, but they can be used to hold weapons. Could you do something with Multiweapon Fighting + Multiattack?

Dagger, Dagger, Dagger, Dagger, Bite, Tentacle?

[stack]

The Vestigial arms don't give any natural attacks, but they can be used to hold weapons. Could you do something with Multiweapon Fighting + Multiattack?

Dagger, Dagger, Dagger, Dagger, Bite, Tentacle?

They can hold weapons and make attacks, but not add to your number of attacks. If you have four arms and a tentacle you can make (1) two-handed attack or (2) one-handed attacks w/ dual-wielding penalties with any given set of hands or your natural attack routine (bite/claw/claw) or a tentacle attack while holding three wands/potions/etc in the empty hands/tentacle, but you get NO extra attacks or actions (weapon attacks assume no iteratives, add as necessary). Kali builds are still limited to the summoner.

(edited to add quote)

[stack]

So, with that out of the way, what would be best for level one feats? Dodge and improved natural armor (assuming its allowed to work only when using mutagen) would up the AC. I don't see much else that jumps out for a natural weapons build without specializing in a particular combat maneuver. I suppose combat reflexes for AOOs, then using enlarge person for reach would work. Anything better?

[DeMouse]

Way I read the vesigial arms was that they would work with claws but not weapons.

[Keld Denar]

Are you allowed 3.5 feats? Lords of Madness has Aberrant Blood + Inhuman Reach + Deepspawn that would give you 2 tentacles, +5' natural reach with all weapons, and a bonus on skills. Unlike those given by Discovery, the tentacles you get from Deepspawn would function as secondary natural attacks in addition to all of the other cool things you get.

[Dakaar]

Are you allowed 3.5 feats? Lords of Madness has Aberrant Blood + Inhuman Reach + Deepspawn that would give you 2 tentacles, +5' natural reach with all weapons, and a bonus on skills. Unlike those given by Discovery, the tentacles you get from Deepspawn would function as secondary natural attacks in addition to all of the other cool things you get.

If you go feral, but use vestigal arms to wield weapons, don't you get your arm attacks (lets say I'm using a 2H weapon), alongside your natural attack routine, albeit with your naturals all at -5?

So youd get +0/-5/-5/-5

[Larpus]

If you go feral, but use vestigal arms to wield weapons, don't you get your arm attacks (lets say I'm using a 2H weapon), alongside your natural attack routine, albeit with your naturals all at -5?

So youd get +0/-5/-5/-5
Don't think it works that way since the Vestigial Arms very sadly specifically mention that they do not give the Alchemist extra attacks or actions per round.

Still, would've been much cooler if it did, a Mutagen Alchemist could turn himself into some sort of mini-Eidolon...still, 3 Natural Attacks at full bonus + Sneak Attack for each one of them is already quite scary in my book, my only concern for a melee Alchemist is how to get some extra AC, so far the best way I've found is to dip your char sheet a level or two into the Barbarian, which gives you some nice proficiencies and also Rage, which is quite nice to stack with your Mutagen (and if you're going Chymist gives you some RP potential for Mr.Hyde being all barbarian while Dr.Jekyl remains a fine gentleman).

[Keld Denar]

Ah, but Vestigial Arms aren't giving you more attacks than you'd normally be allowed. If you had Armor Spikes, you could make an attack with those + 2 claws. Thus, there is no more attacks than you'd make with a greatsword in your Vestigial Arms + Claw/Claw/Whatever.

[Larpus]

Ah, but Vestigial Arms aren't giving you more attacks than you'd normally be allowed. If you had Armor Spikes, you could make an attack with those + 2 claws. Thus, there is no more attacks than you'd make with a greatsword in your Vestigial Arms + Claw/Claw/Whatever.
That is one way to look at it, and one that I'd allow if I were the DM (though maybe I'd ask for the Alchemist to grab 2 Vestigials before he's able to do this).

But it could be argued that your standard amount of attack actions in a round is a bite attack and either TWF/2HW, 1 weapon and 1 claw or 2 claws; so if the DM follows this interpretation, being able to attack with the Vestigial Limbs would be considered "extra attacks" and thus impossible (darn you, text that specifies that this cannot be done).

But don't get me wrong, I agree with you, don't see any truly good reason not to allow it.

EDIT: I do wonder, however, if having one Vestigial Limb allows you to use a X-Bow + some other weapon/shield with little or no penalty; or if it allows you to carry a shield without the needed proficiency and still give you no penalty for doing it.

[Lord Hionhurn]

I was considering a multiclass option with this strat, with 2 levels of Barbarian.

2 vestigal arms, feral mutagen gaining one bite attack and 2 claw attacks.
Beast totem gaining 2 extra claw attacks while raging.

In theory this should give one bite attack and 4 claw attacks.
But would it work?

Edit: Combined with Beastmorph abilities, it would also give you access to pounce at level 12.

[Larpus]

First, in this case it is quite clear that those are "more attacks" since under normal conditions the Rage claws would be neutered, since they're weaker (if memory is not failing me).

But if your DM does allow something like that, I do believe it'd be easier to ask him to grab Feral Mutagen twice and have it affect your extra limbs as well (possibly even the second head if you have Parasitic Twin), this way Pounce comes at level 10, you don't lose 2 caster levels, 1d6 worth of sneak attack and there is no timer on how long you can have the claws ready (as in, longer than a lvl2 Barbarian's Rage).

[Allycard]

i find skinwalkers make a great natural attack build. you go wearboar for hooves 2 secondary attacks race feat for primary goar attack you are now up to 3 attacks lvl 2 you get feral mutagen for bite and claws now you are up to 6 attacks lvl 2 lvl 3 you get multistrike so your secondary attacks are only at a -2 also skinwalkers can gain a pounce like feat so you can charge and full round attack. if you wanted to not be alchemist you can go 2 lvls ranger for aspect of the beast witch give you two claws and adopted trait witch gives you the tusked trait for bite. if your dm lets you add natural attacks with the tenticals you could also grab more arms and dip the two lvls in ranger so all your arms have claws

if you want to stick with human you can take racial heritige aesmer and go down the feat tree to get you wings and wing attacks

[stack]

Skinwalker would have been a great choice if they had existed 6 years ago, yes.

I was looking for a natural attack build, not a thread necromancer.:smallbiggrin: