Balancing Classes

[Talakeal]

What would you think of the following ideas to balance the classes:

Tier 1 classes receive a fraction of normal XP similar to 2nd edition XP tables. Tier 2 classess receive a slightly higher percentage.

Tier 3 is unchanged.

Tier 4 and 5 can play Gestalt characters so long as both sides are tier 4 or 5.

Would this still not be enough? Or would it hurt Tier 1 - 2 and make them unplayable or make tier 4 - 5 OP?

How much XP would you dock tier 1 and 2 classes?

Just brainstorming ideas right now, I didn't think too hard on this, but I wanted to get some feedback.

[TroubleBrewing]

It's not a bad suggestion. I'd have to test it before I give a real opinion on the matter. I can definitely say that it wouldn't make Tier 4-5 overpowered; a gestalt Fighter//Monk is still a crap character.

My usual balancing tactic is to just talk to the players. Tell the guy playing the Wizard to tone it down, and the guy playing the Fighter to maybe look at ToB.

[holywhippet]

Or require all players to play gestalt using a tier 1 and a tier 3 or lower class. If everyone can be awesome then if a player overshadows the others it's either because they are skilled or because the other players aren't aiming for awesome.

[Hirax]

If I had to run a system like this, I'd leave tier 1 and 2 unchanged, with 3 and below getting the ability to gestalt. A lot of tier 4 and 5 classes make great dips, but if someone insisted on playing a monk20/samurai20, I'd probably just give them more magic items and a higher point buy instead of messing with exp.

[TroubleBrewing]

but if someone insisted on playing a monk20/samurai20, I'd probably just give them more magic items and a higher point buy

Or a boot to the face. One or the other. :smallannoyed:

[Hiro Protagonest]

If I had to run a system like this, I'd leave tier 1 and 2 unchanged, with 3 and below getting the ability to gestalt.

But swordsage, warblade, and crusader are tier 3. Gestating them would definitely make it overpowered unless the guys playing casters were optimized as much as possible.

[Lateral]

Or a boot to the face. One or the other. :smallannoyed:

At least they aren't a monk//truenamer. *obligatory shockhorror*

Hell, the Monk//Samurai thing could be okay if they play up the intimidation a la ShneekyTheLost.

[Amphetryon]

What would you think of the following ideas to balance the classes:

Tier 1 classes receive a fraction of normal XP similar to 2nd edition XP tables. Tier 2 classess receive a slightly higher percentage.

Tier 3 is unchanged.

Tier 4 and 5 can play Gestalt characters so long as both sides are tier 4 or 5.

Would this still not be enough? Or would it hurt Tier 1 - 2 and make them unplayable or make tier 4 - 5 OP?

How much XP would you dock tier 1 and 2 classes?

Just brainstorming ideas right now, I didn't think too hard on this, but I wanted to get some feedback.

Player wants to make a Monk/Cleric - not a terribly uncommon multiclass concept. What Tier is that? Which XP table does that character fall into? Does the character half-Gestalt, or get a free template (which may go against the player's concept)?

Same set of queries apply to any multiclass concepts of divergent Tiers.

[Big Fau]

But swordsage, warblade, and crusader are tier 3. Gestating them would definitely make it overpowered unless the guys playing casters were optimized as much as possible.

Fact: Even a Swordsage//Warblade Gestalt can't stand up to an optimized Sorcerer. Or Psion. Or Wilder. Or anything in Tier 2.

Swordsage//Dread Necromancer? That might have a chance if Rainbow Servant is involved (but then they've gestalted into a Tier 1 build, which is to be expected). But anything else? Not much of a chance.

[TroubleBrewing]

Hell, the Monk//Samurai thing could be okay if they play up the intimidation a la ShneekyTheLost.

I actually laughed out loud at this suggestion.

Not because it's not a bad idea, but because of the thread about a week back asking which class was more MAD, and I think this answers it:

A class combo that needs Str, Wis, Con, Dex, and Cha.

Yay Int dumping!

[Lateral]

I actually laughed out loud at this suggestion.

Not because it's not a bad idea, but because of the thread about a week back asking which class was more MAD, and I think this answers it:

A class combo that needs Str, Wis, Con, Dex, and Cha.

Yay Int dumping!

Well, I was mostly joking, and I kind of meant 'ignore Monk completely and be an intimidator Samurai with a few bonus feats.'

[TroubleBrewing]

Fair. Fair. :smalltongue:

[NecroRick]

The only thing making tier 1 classes what they are is the ridiculous idea that they should have access to all spells ever published.

Banish the scroll supermarket where you just rock on up and get whatever you want - even if no other magic user in the campaign setting is actually powerful enough to cast it.

Carefully vet spells that players want to cast, feel free to make a list of approved spells they can have access to.

Got a whole lot of walking planned for the party? Don't give them teleport (and accept no substitutes). Then, a couple of levels later when they've done all that, you can allow it.

Feel free to retroactively take spells away as well. You let them have tensers transformation, but now the fighter is feeling inadequate? Next time the mage goes up a level and his spells known is up for review, take it away.

For a cleric, deities in a pantheon might have a shared spell list of approved spells, and anything outside of that requires an exemption. To bootstrap the list, amalgamate all their domain lists, but vet that ( of course ). Any arcane spells that crept in should be dropped off, and also see above remark regarding spells of "circumvent plot".

-----

Some other things help:

(1) make them earn their power by making them play the low hp character from low levels

[TroubleBrewing]

Simple alternative: Play 4e.

It had to be said. If you want to play a game with balanced classes, play 4e. Avoid 3.5 like the plague if you want balance.

[Talakeal]

Player wants to make a Monk/Cleric - not a terribly uncommon multiclass concept. What Tier is that? Which XP table does that character fall into? Does the character half-Gestalt, or get a free template (which may go against the player's concept)?

Same set of queries apply to any multiclass concepts of divergent Tiers.

Just off the top of my head, levels in which he takes monk he can gestalt, levels in which he can take cleric he cannot. Likewise, if his last level was in cleric he takes an XP penalty, if his last level was in monk he does not.

I don't see any reason why you can't multi class gestalt levels with non gestalt levels, gestalt basically works like a single class with the best of both worlds from two other classes.


Simple alternative: Play 4e.

It had to be said. If you want to play a game with balanced classes, play 4e. Avoid 3.5 like the plague if you want balance.

Not to start an edition war, but the loss of simulationist aspects kills all interest in 4E for me. Combat might be more balanced, but it is not at all fun for me, and, atleast in the groups I have played with, the game outside of combat is minimal at best.

[Talakeal]

EDIT: Sorry double post

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The only thing making tier 1 classes what they are is the ridiculous idea that they should have access to all spells ever published.

Banish the scroll supermarket where you just rock on up and get whatever you want - even if no other magic user in the campaign setting is actually powerful enough to cast it.

Carefully vet spells that players want to cast, feel free to make a list of approved spells they can have access to.

Got a whole lot of walking planned for the party? Don't give them teleport (and accept no substitutes). Then, a couple of levels later when they've done all that, you can allow it.

Feel free to retroactively take spells away as well. You let them have tensers transformation, but now the fighter is feeling inadequate? Next time the mage goes up a level and his spells known is up for review, take it away.

For a cleric, deities in a pantheon might have a shared spell list of approved spells, and anything outside of that requires an exemption. To bootstrap the list, amalgamate all their domain lists, but vet that ( of course ). Any arcane spells that crept in should be dropped off, and also see above remark regarding spells of "circumvent plot".

-----

Some other things help:

(1) make them earn their power by making them play the low hp character from low levels

Even without a scroll supermarket, you'd have to, as a DM look over a caster's spell list every time they level up to see what they get and what they don't. For arcane casters, that's not too bad. For druids, clerics, and archivists, their "spells known" is generally "all of my list, yes, even that."

[holywhippet]

Player wants to make a Monk/Cleric - not a terribly uncommon multiclass concept. What Tier is that? Which XP table does that character fall into? Does the character half-Gestalt, or get a free template (which may go against the player's concept)?

Same set of queries apply to any multiclass concepts of divergent Tiers.

Monk/Cleric is an odd mix since it's the logical combo to qualify for the Sacred Fist PrC. And that PrC is kind of odd in many ways - it's 3/4 spell progression, but doesn't have full wisdom save progression. It's also full BAB progression even though monk and cleric are only 3/4 BAB progression. It's a pretty strong PrC IMO.

However, Monk/Cleric has some distinct limitations - no armour as is typical for a monk (you can cover it a bit with spells though) which means AC won't be so great. If you go Sacred Fist, no weapon either which means no weapon enchantments (other than spells).

[Lateral]

Monk/Cleric is an odd mix since it's the logical combo to qualify for the Sacred Fist PrC. And that PrC is kind of odd in many ways - it's 3/4 spell progression, but doesn't have full wisdom save progression. It's also full BAB progression even though monk and cleric are only 3/4 BAB progression. It's a pretty strong PrC IMO.

However, Monk/Cleric has some distinct limitations - no armour as is typical for a monk (you can cover it a bit with spells though) which means AC won't be so great. If you go Sacred Fist, no weapon either which means no weapon enchantments (other than spells).

It's actually full-casting; text trumps table, and the text says it gains casting advancement at every level. You need two levels of monk (or one level and fractional BAB) to qualify at level 6 anyway, so you're already losing one or two caster levels.

[holywhippet]

It's actually full-casting; text trumps table, and the text says it gains casting advancement at every level. You need two levels of monk (or one level and fractional BAB) to qualify at level 6 anyway, so you're already losing one or two caster levels.

Hmm, I never noticed that. It's not cleared up in the errata either.

[Lateral]

Hmm, I never noticed that. It's not cleared up in the errata either.

Yeah, it happened to four or five of the classes in the book, including the infamous Rainbow Servant.

[AslanCross]

My usual balancing tactic is to just talk to the players. Tell the guy playing the Wizard to tone it down, and the guy playing the Fighter to maybe look at ToB.

This is usually my solution as well. People who intend to break the game will always find ways around rulings.

[holywhippet]

This is usually my solution as well. People who intend to break the game will always find ways around rulings.

I don't know if that is fair though. If you put yourself in your character's shoes, are you going to want to make yourself less effective out there on the battlefield or are you going to try and take your enemy down as hard and as quickly as possible? What if you prepare for a fight, don't bring your A game and get killed because the enemy was stronger than you expected?

[Kylarra]

That only works if you assume your character has had thousands or millions of lifetimes to hone his/her skills (to simulate the internet's optifu) and has no emotional biases, or at least ones approximating your own.

[holywhippet]

You can't be sure where your character might draw their inspiration from though. Maybe they thought up a particular combo themself, maybe their master told them about when they used it once, maybe they've heard tales of someone else who tried this particular trick.

[Doc Roc]

Simple alternative: Play 4e.

It had to be said. If you want to play a game with balanced classes, play 4e. Avoid 3.5 like the plague if you want balance.

There is... Anooothherrr....

[Lateral]

There is... Anooothherrr....

...I don't get it.

Oh, wait, you're propping Legend. :smallredface:

[Doc Roc]

...I don't get it.

Oh, wait, you're propping Legend. :smallredface:

I try to be subtle about this stuff, but after the test of spite, I'm a little uncomfortable supporting half-measure balance fixes. Some of the recent testing for Legend has left me worried too. I mean, we're getting to the point where four or five dice of damage is a really noticeable imbalance.

If you think your fix is going to end up that finely honed, I think we have an interesting chat ahead of us.

[holywhippet]

...I don't get it.

Oh, wait, you're propping Legend. :smallredface:

That's a quote from Star Wars - Empire Strikes Back I think.

Thing is, 4th edition isn't a balanced version of 3rd edition. It's a balanced version of D&D (more or less, the imbalances aren't huge). But it's a complete rewrite rather than being 3rd edition balanced out.

[Lateral]

I try to be subtle about this stuff, but after the test of spite, I'm a little uncomfortable supporting half-measure balance fixes. Some of the recent testing for Legend has left me worried too. I mean, we're getting to the point where four or five dice of damage is a really noticeable imbalance.

If you think your fix is going to end up that finely honed, I think we have an interesting chat ahead of us.
What fix? :smallconfused:


That's a quote from Star Wars - Empire Strikes Back I think.
I realize that. It was also propping Legend.

[Doc Roc]

What fix? :smallconfused:


I realize that. It was also propping Legend.

Sorry! Anonymous plural you for the your. Also apparently the anonymous plural ambiguous you!

[TroubleBrewing]

Sorry! Anonymous plural you for the your. Also apparently the anonymous plural ambiguous you!

He... He self-grammar ninja'd himself.

Repetitively.

WHATISTHISIDONTEVEN

[Doc Roc]

He... He self-grammar ninja'd himself.

Repetitively.

WHATISTHISIDONTEVEN

In the minespeak of the Seven Mountains Clan, I am known as Jeran Tor Decima, which translates roughly as "Not A Git On Purpose."

[TroubleBrewing]

Know what I love? Nerds and the internet. Comedy gold, right there.

(Side note: Bugbear!)

[Lateral]

Know what I love? Nerds and the internet. Comedy gold, right there.

So is nerds and anything. (Or the internet and anything, for that matter. :smalltongue:)

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Know what I love? Nerds and the internet. Comedy gold, right there.

(Side note: Bugbear!)


So is nerds and anything. (Or the internet and anything, for that matter. :smalltongue:)

Did someone say "NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERDDSSSS?!"http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_I2i8xqihwqQ/TDKwKDZiTJI/AAAAAAAAAXU/PBKhmWc2Dqo/s320/revenge-of-the-nerds.jpg

Honestly, though, get enough internet or nerds together, and anything - I dare say even FATAL - can turn into debate club. And for somethings, debate club is awesome!