Reaching Epic Skill Checks w/ Non-Epic Wizard

[sapmarten]

Alright, what do? Let's say I have a male wizard who has no balance ranks, but needs to make an untrained balance 150 check. He has all the spells listed in d20srd.org to aid him, including spells from other classes. WHAT DO?


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Let's just say that the wizard needs to meet any skill check, to prove that a level 20 wizard is better than a rank 16 deity with 1 level in commoner.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Use fly or overland flight. Simple as that. Air walk for clerics and druids.

[sapmarten]

This isn't an issue of flying. Let's say it's a diplomacy problem instead. Or a knowledge (local) problem instead. Point being, any skill check when the wizard needs to.

(Cheeses and exploits accepted.)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Diplomacy? Charm person/monster, dominate person/monster, suggestion, and the mass versions of those.

Knowledge? Contact other plane.

Spot/listen? Clairaudience/clairvoyance.

[Jack_Simth]

Potentially Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm), by way of the clause

Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.

If hitting a creature with AC 10,000 is in line with hitting a skill check DC of 150, you're good.

[Lateral]

Potentially Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm), by way of the clause


If hitting a creature with AC 10,000 is in line with hitting a skill check DC of 150, you're good.

^(O_o)^
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Not much you can do in core besides using spells to just get around it entirely. That's kind of the point of spells.

[NineThePuma]

I can get +51 on a diplomacy check without (much) cheese by level 6.

[sapmarten]

Potentially Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm), by way of the clause


If hitting a creature with AC 10,000 is in line with hitting a skill check DC of 150, you're good.

Huh, that's an interesting way of interpreting the rules. Complete success with next action guaranteed. Hmm...

Waiiiit, can I limited wish a death attack? LOLWTF?

[Jack_Simth]

Huh, that's an interesting way of interpreting the rules. Complete success with next action guaranteed. Hmm...

Waiiiit, can I limited wish a death attack? LOLWTF?
On the attack roll: Absolutely. The target still gets their save, however.


^(O_o)^

You know, I don't think I've ever seen that in a conversation before. Does that mean I won the OP's challenge?


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Not much you can do in core besides using spells to just get around it entirely. That's kind of the point of spells.
Generally, yes.

[Psyren]

If hitting a creature with AC 10,000 is in line with hitting a skill check DC of 150, you're good.

It's not. While you can natural 20 an attack roll (and thus autohit), you can never autowin a skill check this way. Therefore they are dissimilar and the clause fails.

[Lateral]

You know, I don't think I've ever seen that in a conversation before. Does that mean I won the OP's challenge?

Not exactly. Let's see if this clears it up:


^(O_o)^
<(>_<)>
(>X_X<)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dwLTXAGvG_I/TdGbZxp4sKI/AAAAAAAAHbI/py03MHdMqWM/s1600/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

[Jack_Simth]

It's not. While you can natural 20 an attack roll (and thus autohit), you can never autowin a skill check this way. Therefore they are dissimilar and the clause fails.
They don't need to be "similar to"; they need to have a "power level" that "is in line with" the other stuff.

The Balance check DC listed (150) would be... what? Balance on a cloud? Casting Fly (a 3rd level Sor/Wiz spell), Overland Flight (Sor/Wiz 5), or Air Walk (Cleric-4/Druid-4) would obliviate the need for the check; clearly, then, the DC is "in line with" a Wizard-5 spell, or a Cleric-4 spell.

Training a Horse for Combat Riding in one minute (DC 120)? That'd be very similar to ... what, Dominate Animal? Phantom Steed? Again, in-line with the listed effects of Limited Wish.

Tumble DC 100 to ignore falling damage? Well, that's just the 1st level spell Featherfall. Again, the impossible skill check is in line with something Limited Wish can explicitly duplicate.

Really, the Epic skill checks are mostly just ways to duplicate lowish-level spell effects mundanely anyway.

[Psyren]

The Balance check DC listed (150) would be... what? Balance on a cloud? Casting Fly (a 3rd level Sor/Wiz spell), Overland Flight (Sor/Wiz 5), or Air Walk (Cleric-4/Druid-4) would obliviate the need for the check; clearly, then, the DC is "in line with" a Wizard-5 spell, or a Cleric-4 spell.

Still not comparable. I can dispel/AMF your fly spell and send you plummeting to earth - you can never dispel my balance check, or disable it, because ESCs are explicitly (Ex.) They're not in the same league.

I appreciate a good TO as much as anyone, but Limited Wish don't bend that way, yo.

[Jack_Simth]

Still not comparable. I can dispel/AMF your fly spell and send you plummeting to earth - you can never dispel my balance check, or disable it, because ESCs are explicitly (Ex.) They're not in the same league.

I appreciate a good TO as much as anyone, but Limited Wish don't bend that way, yo.
So's Darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision). Including Darkvision that comes from the spell, Darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkvision.htm). If the Darkvision spell goes away, so does the Darkvision it grants.

If you're making a skill check that requires you roll regularly (such as the Balance on a Cloud, DC 120), but the only reason you can make it is a few magical items that are boosting your check (like +12 Gloves of Dexterity, a Luckstone, et cetera), negating the boosts causes further skill checks to fail, and thus, you fall when next your need to roll the check comes up. Yes, I *can* dispel it. Sure, if you have 119 ranks in Balance, I can't remove your ability to walk on clouds easily (can be done, though...), but generally, that's not going to be the case.

Or to put it another way: If a Wizard is only making a particular bluff check due to a +12 Cloak of Charisma, a Luckstone (+1 to all skill checks), an Elixer of Glibness (+30 to Bluff checks to convince someone of a falsehood), a Circlet of Persuasion (+3 all Charisma based checks), and a Greater Heroism spell (+4 to Skill Checks), his ability to do so still goes away in an AMF, even though the skill check itself is nonmagical.

How, really, is using Limited Wish there any different?

Besides: the spell specifically references the power level of the effect, not it being a similar effect in any way, shape, or form. The vast majority of Epic skill DC's are essentially duplicating low-level spells anyway. Thus the *power* is in line, even if the specific effect doesn't seem thematically appropriate. And the power being in line is all that's required.

[Psyren]

Or to put it another way: If a Wizard is only making a particular bluff check due to a +12 Cloak of Charisma, a Luckstone (+1 to all skill checks), an Elixer of Glibness (+30 to Bluff checks to convince someone of a falsehood), a Circlet of Persuasion (+3 all Charisma based checks), and a Greater Heroism spell (+4 to Skill Checks), his ability to do so still goes away in an AMF, even though the skill check itself is nonmagical.

How, really, is using Limited Wish there any different?

Because you're attributing the power to replicate all of those item effects simultaneously to Limited Wish. It's ridiculous.

Best to agree to disagree, Jack.

[Jack_Simth]

Because you're attributing the power to replicate all of those item effects simultaneously to Limited Wish. It's ridiculous.
For a single skill check, that expends 300 xp and a 7th level spell slot, vs. a number of effects that are permanent and/or long-running. Really. Do you also have problems with Meteor Swarm, which mostly duplicates the effects (once) of simultaneously burning a very large chunk of a Necklace of Fireballs?

Best to agree to disagree, Jack.If you say so. But I might point out that I've always been of the opinion that debating to convince the other person is quite pointless. That's not my goal here, even though it might superficially seem so.

[Psyren]

For a single skill check, that expends 300 xp and a 7th level spell slot, vs. a number of effects that are permanent and/or long-running. Really. Do you also have problems with Meteor Swarm, which mostly duplicates the effects (once) of simultaneously burning a very large chunk of a Necklace of Fireballs?

No, for several reasons. For one, a Necklace of Fireballs is one item, versus the entire suite of skill-boosters you are attempting to replicate with a single LW. For two, a 9th-level spell is several orders of magnitude more powerful than a 7th-level one. Such as, oh I don't know, the difference between Limited Wish and Wish. Third and finally, neither of the necklace nor MS are duplicating an epic skill check.


If you say so. But I might point out that I've always been of the opinion that debating to convince the other person is quite pointless. That's not my goal here, even though it might superficially seem so.

Where did I say that was your goal? :smallconfused:

[Douglas]

There's always the Omniscificer trick. I'm pretty sure a wizard would be able to pull it off, just not at level 4 like the Artificer does.

[Jack_Simth]

No, for several reasons. For one, a Necklace of Fireballs is one item, versus the entire suite of skill-boosters you are attempting to replicate with a single LW.
Burning most of a Necklace of Fireballs would also take several actions, under most circumstances. One per bead (it doesn't specify it's not a command-word item, so it's still a standard action per bead... unless you set it off on yourself and voluntarily fail all saves... which requires immunity, or a sacrificial minion, to set up). Meanwhile, casting Meteor Swarm takes just one standard action. That's a fairly severe difference in resource cost, yes. That Neclace of Fireballs is expensive in battle.


For two, a 9th-level spell is several orders of magnitude more powerful than a 7th-level one. Such as, oh I don't know, the difference between Limited Wish and Wish.
Spells do what they say. A 2nd level spell can foil a 4th level spell (See Invisibility vs. Greater Invisibility). A 1st level spell can completely foil a 5th level spell (such as Protection from Evil vs. Magic Jar), and mostly foil a 9th level spell (Protection from Evil vs. Dominate Monster).

What does Limited Wish say it can do? "any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" - and the "above effects" include 6th level or lower Arcane spells, and 5th level or lower Divine spells.

What are these Epic checks getting you? Very little that can't be duplicated with a spell of 5th level or lower. Ergo, exactly as written, Limited Wish lets you duplicate most Epic skill checks.
Third and finally, neither of the necklace nor MS are duplicating an epic skill check.

So basically, you're just stuck on the "it's Epic" thing. You haven't really argued that the utility you get out of an Balance check, Magically-enhanced to the Epic "Balance on a cloud" is not in line with the utility you'd get out of a casting of Air Walk. You haven't really argued that the utility you get out of the "Ignore Falling Damage" from Tumble is out of line with the utility you'd get from Featherfall. Just that things "aren't similar" when the actual text of the spell in use doesn't specify things need to be "similar" just "in line" with the same "power level".

Where did I say that was your goal? :smallconfused:Where did I say you said it was my goal? The answer: Neither of us did ... at least, not directly. The "agree to disagree" bit is almost always done by someone who's attempting to convince the person they're arguing with and has pretty much given up. It was suggested by your statements, not specifically stated.


There's always the Omniscificer trick. I'm pretty sure a wizard would be able to pull it off, just not at level 4 like the Artificer does.While that would mostly be true, the specific Wizard involved in this particular challenge:

has all the spells listed in d20srd.org to aid him, including spells from other classes
And Masochism isn't on the SRD.

[Dylaer]

Assuming level 20 human wizard, with an item familiar (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Item_Familiars), 19 int (would realistically be more, but that'd be absolute minimum) and all skill ranks invested from 3rd level onwards, skill bonuses all stacked on one skill, with half of the wealth by level gp spent on a +skill item, comes to +84 (+23 from item familiar, +61 from +skill item) on one specific skill if my maths is correct. That's all I can think of using core. Make that skill Bluff, you can add a +30 glibness bonus on top of that.

EDIT: Just realised that rogue could up that by a lot. +73 from item familiar assuming the same level, int, and race.

EDIT 2: Critically failed my knowledge check there. +23 is the most from item familiar. Fixed that up. Still get the extra points, just they have to be put elsewhere. This means the stated rogue gets 3 skills with a +23 bonus, and another +4 for distribute. Looks like fun.

[CTrees]

I'm looking through, to refresh my memory, and for effects of epic level skills which can't be easily replicated with low level spells...

Escape Artist - move through a wall of force. actually stepping through physcially, no, but any number of teleport effects can do the same thing. (actually, I reread - the move through a wall of force version *probably* takes one minute, making teleporting out (assuming it's a force cage or the like, and you can't just walk around) dramatically superior)

Epic forgery could be difficult to replicate with normal spell usage.

Specific actions on Epic Ride could be odd, but when you have spells, why would you care?

I'd say possibly some uses of profession, but if we're getting technical, "Profession does not posess an epic usage," so... doesn't count for this discussion.

So what are we talking about, then?

[Dylaer]

Well, take my rogue with Bluff and Glibness. With that, he could take 10 to replicate any of the epic bluff skill checks.

[Psyren]

Burning most of a Necklace of Fireballs would also take several actions, under most circumstances. One per bead (it doesn't specify it's not a command-word item, so it's still a standard action per bead... unless you set it off on yourself and voluntarily fail all saves... which requires immunity, or a sacrificial minion, to set up). Meanwhile, casting Meteor Swarm takes just one standard action. That's a fairly severe difference in resource cost, yes. That Neclace of Fireballs is expensive in battle.

Action economy is not a resource WotC considers when creating magic items. Consider a simple item like a Crystal Ball of True Seeing - activating the scrying and TS effect on one's own would normally take two actions, yet the item lets you do both in one. Similarly, an elemental gem casts SNA (a 1-round casting-time spell), yet crushing the gem is only a standard.

Comparing the time it takes to get the spell off vs getting the item to do the same thing is not meaningful. In your example, the spell is faster, but there are several instances where the item is faster.

Is action economy a resource WotC should consider? You and I both know the answer is yes. You and I also both know that they don't.



What are these Epic checks getting you? Very little that can't be duplicated with a spell of 5th level or lower. Ergo, exactly as written, Limited Wish lets you duplicate most Epic skill checks.

I've already addressed this. Limited Wish's effects are magical and the skill checks aren't. Sure if you aren't Epic you need magic to get there, but it's not a fundamental assumption/requirement of the system.

Your argument is like saying "Hiding behind a tree and bending light around yourself to turn invisible are the same thing, because the end result is that you aren't seen."


So basically, you're just stuck on the "it's Epic" thing.

We're having a discussion about power level, aren't we? Specifically, what effects are "in line with" the ones allowed by a 7th-level spell. Epic effects are very clearly not in line with these.