What can't Epic Chars do?

[Aemoh87]

So I came up with the argument that a party of four which includes multiple caster is capable of anything in 3.5. My friend and I could not come up with any examples going against this, can the playground? Please us by the book Wotc only material. No epic spells except pre-written ones.

Some staples we worked with is having full Arcane, Divine, and Psionic casters, then a martial adept that knows elder mountain hammer (can break ANY object).

[Lateral]

What can't epic casters do?

Nothing. There is nothing a group of epic-level casters cannot theoretically do with epic spells.

[Starbuck_II]

They can't tell why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Even Pun-Pun fails at that.

[Aemoh87]

What can't epic casters do?

Nothing. There is nothing a group of epic-level casters cannot theoretically do with epic spells.

How about using just by the book, no epic spells except pre-written ones. Sorry, I should have clarified that.


They can't tell why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Even Pun-Pun fails at that.

It's the sugar cinnamon mixture, same one used on mini donuts. Sold my soul to a demonic baker for that tid bit of info.

[Lateral]

Ah. Still, with all the spells out there, there's not much they can't do (assuming a five-man-band of Cleric, Wizard, Druid, StP Erudite, and Warblade.)

[Qwertystop]

Can they turn the world into an avocado permanently?
Can they repeatedly explode without dying?
Can they eat (not drink, eat) liquids?
Can they create a challenging task that they cannot complete?
Can they lose levels at will?
Can they gain any more levels?

[Yuki Akuma]

Can they turn the world into an avocado permanently?
Can they repeatedly explode without dying?
Can they eat (not drink, eat) liquids?
Can they create a challenging task that they cannot complete?
Can they lose levels at will?
Can they gain any more levels?

Yes, yes, with enough thickener, yes, with energy drain effects, sure.

[Eric Tolle]

Have their character sheets fit on one page? Be written up in under an hour? Take less than 30 minutes for a reader to understand the effects of all the feat and item synchronization? Look summoner than your average Champions character?

[TroubleBrewing]

Can they turn the world into an avocado permanently?
Can they repeatedly explode without dying?
Can they eat (not drink, eat) liquids?
Can they create a challenging task that they cannot complete?
Can they lose levels at will?
Can they gain any more levels?

I'm pretty sure that first one already IS an epic spell... :smalleek:

Regardless, Epic Spellcasting has clearly defined parameters within the ELH. So, using Epic Spellcasting is going "by the book". :smallannoyed:

[Aemoh87]

Can they turn the world into an avocado permanently?
Can they repeatedly explode without dying?
Can they eat (not drink, eat) liquids?
Can they create a challenging task that they cannot complete?
Can they lose levels at will?
Can they gain any more levels?

This is child's play... the third one can be accomplished with a 0th level spell. The avocado thing doesn't sound to tough, 4 is interesting but still doable. The 5th requires some finesse but is possible, and the last is obviously yes. Especially if you include divine levels.


I'm pretty sure that first one already IS an epic spell... :smalleek:

Regardless, Epic Spellcasting has clearly defined parameters within the ELH. So, using Epic Spellcasting is going "by the book". :smallannoyed:

I am saying this just because epic spells can do anything, and that makes this challenge less fun :)

[Qwertystop]

Yes, yes, with enough thickener, yes, with energy drain effects, sure.

If you thicken it enough that it is edible, it is not a liquid. The problem is in the definition of "eat" and "drink".

What tasks can they create that they cannot complete? The fact that the answer is "yes" means that there are things they cannot do.

If they are really high into epic levels, what is left for them to beat and get XP from?

[Aemoh87]

If you thicken it enough that it is edible, it is not a liquid. The problem is in the definition of "eat" and "drink".

What tasks can they create that they cannot complete? The fact that the answer is "yes" means that there are things they cannot do.

If they are really high into epic levels, what is left for them to beat and get XP from?

Clam chowder is a liquid and you can stab it and eat it with a fork.

Yeah the task they cannot complete is a common philosophical argument, but it's very general. The biggest problem is characters can grow and change, being able to complete it eventually.

[Veyr]

Technically speaking, there's nothing that non-epic characters can't do, and Pun-Pun can become Epic if he feels like it, so the answer is quite definitely yes. Even without Pun-Pun, as far as I know there are no actual limitations on what Epic Spellcasting can do, given enough time/money/XP.

I've also been told there's also a build (non-epic, from what I understand) that has actually has a chance of killing Pun-Pun, so even that can be done. I'm not really sure on the details there, since that seems fantastically hard to believe (or even imagine: Pun-Pun can literally say "Whatever you just did didn't actually happen" as a Free Action that can be taken out of turn; I'm not really sure how that can be beaten)

[Qwertystop]

Clam chowder is a liquid and you can stab it and eat it with a fork.

The bits you are eating are solids suspended in the liquid.

[Aemoh87]

The bits you are eating are solids suspended in the liquid.

no the grey goo, the chowda part not the clam part. You can defiantly fork it... I am doing it right now.

But for a challenge, you could just suspend time then eat the suspended liquid.

[Qwertystop]

Technically speaking, there's nothing that non-epic characters can't do, and Pun-Pun can become Epic if he feels like it, so the answer is quite definitely yes. Even without Pun-Pun, as far as I know there are no actual limitations on what Epic Spellcasting can do, given enough time/money/XP.

I've also been told there's also a build (non-epic, from what I understand) that has actually has a chance of killing Pun-Pun, so even that can be done. I'm not really sure on the details there, since that seems fantastically hard to believe (or even imagine: Pun-Pun can literally say "Whatever you just did didn't actually happen" as a Free Action that can be taken out of turn; I'm not really sure how that can be beaten)

Only build I can think of is the Omniscifier. That's because it knows everything, so it essentially becomes a battle between a very-powerful being with arbitrarily-high stats and a being who knows everything that ever has or will happen. If there is a way to kill Pun-Pun, the Omniscifier can do it. As I remember, it was some combination of an infinite damage loop, a Delay Death spell, and something that gives a bonus to skill checks equal to recent damage taken.

[TroubleBrewing]

Veyr: I believe you speak of the Omniscificer. One of LoP's Dirty Tricks, if I'm not mistaken.

How he defeats Pun-Pun is simple: he prevents said Kobold from living long enough to ascend to godhood.

EDIT: Gah, SWORDSAGE'D!

[Hiro Protagonest]

If the Omniscificer knows everything, he knows how to travel through time and where Pun-Pun lived before he became Pun-Pun. Therefore he can defeat him before he even exists.

[Lateral]

If the Omniscificer knows everything, he knows how to travel through time and where Pun-Pun lived before he became Pun-Pun. Therefore he can defeat him before he even exists.

But Pun-Pun can use the same trick and therefore do the same thing, and can be achieved at a lower ECL.

[Jack_Simth]

What tasks can they create that they cannot complete? The fact that the answer is "yes" means that there are things they cannot do.Just to be pendantic, I might point out a silly oversight in your argument:

Can group A produce a task A that group A cannot complete? Absolutely possible.
Can group B, tailor made to handle task A, handle Task A? Absolutely possible.

So is there a task that a group of Epic characters can make that they (no other pronouns involved, so "they" contextually refers to the specific Epic characters in question). Sure. Is there another group of Epic characters that can do said task? Sure.

[CTrees]

Alright, I'll go there and open that can of worms again. They can't kill the Lady, because she has no stats (regardless of other reasons).

Yes, you can houserule them, but at that point you're back into the Seraphim thread from earlier. 'If it has stats, we can kill it.' Well, part of Her mystery is that very lack-she exists, partially, to not have stats, so as to be something truly impossible to beat.

[Innis Cabal]

Can they turn the world into an avocado permanently?

Yes


Can they repeatedly explode without dying?

Can do that pre-epic


Can they eat (not drink, eat) liquids?

Yes and so can you. It's called ice.


Can they create a challenging task that they cannot complete?

Yes. They can also complete the challenge they can't complete by making another challenge.


Can they lose levels at will?

Yes, you can do that pre-epic.


Can they gain any more levels?

Yes, you can do that pre-epic.

[Aemoh87]

Just to be pendantic, I might point out a silly oversight in your argument:

Can group A produce a task A that group A cannot complete? Absolutely possible.
Can group B, tailor made to handle task A, handle Task A? Absolutely possible.

So is there a task that a group of Epic characters can make that they (no other pronouns involved, so "they" contextually refers to the specific Epic characters in question). Sure. Is there another group of Epic characters that can do said task? Sure.

Yes everyone is aware of these classic arguments. And I offer the classic responses to them. But now that we got that out of the way.


Alright, I'll go there and open that can of worms again. They can't kill the Lady, because she has no stats (regardless of other reasons).

Yes, you can houserule them, but at that point you're back into the Seraphim thread from earlier. 'If it has stats, we can kill it.' Well, part of Her mystery is that very lack-she exists, partially, to not have stats, so as to be something truly impossible to beat.

Not all challenges are killing based, but I think outside the box thinking is needed to discover something that is impossible.

[Qwertystop]

But Pun-Pun can use the same trick and therefore do the same thing, and can be achieved at a lower ECL.

When the Omniscifier was developed, the only punpun build was one that required Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3. The Omniscifier, as a 4th level Artificer, acheived power faster. The newer pun-pun build beats it, but the older one lost.

[Lateral]

When the Omniscifier was developed, the only punpun build was one that required Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3. The Omniscifier, as a 4th level Artificer, acheived power faster. The newer pun-pun build beats it, but the older one lost.

I'm well aware of that, but the Omniscificer is still beaten to the punch by the latest Pun-Pun.

[Qwertystop]

Yes and so can you. It's called ice.
Yes, you can do that (gain levels) pre-epic.

Ice is a solid. Is eating ice cream eating a liquid?

What I meant was that the farther into Epic you are, the less there is to challenge you enough to give you XP for levels.

[Aemoh87]

I'm well aware of that, but the Omniscificer is still beaten to the punch by the latest Pun-Pun.

This is off track but I always wondered if d2sader could kill a flat footed pun-pun... I know the it's unlikely the d2sader would even get a chance to approach said pun-pun, but if it could swing at a flat footed one...

[ffone]

If the Omniscificer knows everything, he knows how to travel through time and where Pun-Pun lived before he became Pun-Pun. Therefore he can defeat him before he even exists.

The end of 'Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey' touched on this idea...the good guys and bad guy engage in back and forth Wish-like 'conjuring' of things at hand, which are at hand b/c after they beat the other side they will go back and time and place them, but of course only the winner can actually do that (Bill and Ted defeat the BBEG by explaining that to him and laughing when one of his 'conjurations' fails). I don't think it was actually self-consistent but hey, it's Bill and Ted.

Also funny (to me), and annoying, is that I've had PBP detentes where the player said 'I ready an action to attack if attacked' and acted as if that should guarantee that they always get to act first. (I usually point out that you need to do initiative before you can use the ready action, but I hate having to deal with it.)

[The Rabbler]

I'd like to point out that the omniscifer doesn't actually stop Pun-Pun anymore. the Omniscifer was designed to stop Pun-Pun before he ascended (level 5) by achieving his infinite knowledge at level 4. This allows him to stop Pun-Pun by killing him in the time it takes for him to hit level 5.

The problem with this is that Pun-Pun is now achievable by level 1, so the omniscifer's main point is moot.

EDIT: swordsage'd

[Veyr]

This is off track but I always wondered if d2sader could kill a flat footed pun-pun... I know the it's unlikely the d2sader would even get a chance to approach said pun-pun, but if it could swing at a flat footed one...
Pun-Pun would be able to interrupt the attack at any point, probably including at any point in the middle of the damage cycle, and say "no, you didn't hit me. I don't care that you've already rolled damage, it didn't actually happen."

From what I understand, Pun-Pun is capable even of retroactive action.

[Godskook]

This is off track but I always wondered if d2sader could kill a flat footed pun-pun... I know the it's unlikely the d2sader would even get a chance to approach said pun-pun, but if it could swing at a flat footed one...

Pun-Pun is immune to damage, so no.

[Innis Cabal]

Ice is a solid. Is eating ice cream eating a liquid?

Ice is the solid state of water. a liquid. It is not in fact a true solid because it will revert back to it's liquid state unaided. You are a true solid, you will remain solid unless outside forces are acted out on you. So the answer is yes, ice cream is a solidified liquid.


What I meant was that the farther into Epic you are, the less there is to challenge you enough to give you XP for levels.

There is always a challenge for you. There is merely less printed challenges for you.

[Sims]

Alot of people rely on "Surprise Rounds" too. As if a char would have adequite knowledge of most Epic level creature, including their weaknesses as if they've fought them before. . . . . . .

Cooking up a team of impossible to defeat monsters isn't all that tough.

The Wicked Pantheon. There.
Or 7 Seraphim.

Wow, this game kinda sucks now. I wonder why.