Alternate Class Features to Replace Bardsong?

[wayfare]

I'm looking to play a bardsongless bard in an upcoming game. Any ideas as to what I can replace it with (In print or homebrew)?

Thanks

--Wayfare

[Madcrafter]

The bardic music is an integral part of the class; without it you are pretty much an adept who knows a bit more about stuff. There are a few ACFs that trade away specific uses, but nothing that gets rid of it entirely. If you want a list of those, the bard handbook is here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0

[Cog]

Yeah, the songs are basically what makes a Bard what it is - the casting can be had as a Sorcerer and the skills as a Rogue, or you can ply a middle ground with a Factotum. What is it about Bard that you do want, and maybe we can match you up with something?

If it's specifically the Bard casting you like, there's a Spellthief ACF somewhere in Dragon that trades out all sneak attack save for the first die for bardic casting (there may be other details as well).

[FMArthur]

If it's the dumb visual of playing music as a combat tactic that you don't want, Bard works perfectly fine with Perform (Oration), inspiring your allies with mere words. You can make a serious battle commander type who never touches music at all with the Bard class.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you're looking for a no music bard, play a factotum.

[Thurbane]

If you're looking for a no music bard, play a factotum.
Or a Beguiler.

[Amnestic]

If you're looking for a no music bard, play a factotum.


Or a Beguiler.

These. Bardic Music (even if it's not actually music and is instead dance, or oration, or whatever) is the centrepiece of the class. Cutting it out is like cutting out the spellcasting from a Wizard.

I'd probably fluff a Factotum or a Beguiler to be a bard-like character (maybe grab the Collector of Stories skilltrick for some extra crunch reflection) and roll with that.

[Thurbane]

If you can squeeze Beguiler into Loremaster or Paragnostic Apostle, then it becomes even more Bard-like.

[true_shinken]

Perform (dance) is awesome for a Bard. I remember someone saying they played a dancer Bard with bells tied to her clothes so as to make the dancing audible. It's also a requirement for Snowflake Wardance.

[dextercorvia]

Archivist also makes a good Bard replacement if you don't want music.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, if you want to play a Bard without Bardic Music, then you are really wanting to play a completely different class. As others have suggested, Beguiler is an excellent way to go, getting a bunch of Illusion and Enchantment spells, plus being a little on the sneaky side.

[Draz74]

Giving the Bard the Dragon Shaman's auras instead of his music is an idea I've toyed with. Probably kind of weak at higher levels, but at high levels the Bard tends to be more focused on spellcasting anyway.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Giving the Bard the Dragon Shaman's auras instead of his music is an idea I've toyed with. Probably kind of weak at higher levels, but at high levels the Bard tends to be more focused on spellcasting anyway.

Weak is certainly an understatement, at *any* level. IC can at least be optimized. I'm still trying to work out how to optimize auras. The Horn that is part of the same set as the Badge can work for a +1. I can't find much else to boost it.

[visigani]

Instead of NOT answering the questis question... or telling him to play a completely different class, let's try answering the guys question...


That question being what would be an equivalent class feature for the bard to take in the event he or she lost bardic music.


In the game there are two other similar abilities... Turn Undead and Wildshape.... however, in feats there's an alternative... Luck Feats.


Try this... you begin play with the granted power of the luck domain and every three levels after first (or whenever the bard would get a new ability for bardic music, take your pick) you get a new Luck Feat from complete scoundrel.

Unlike normal Luck Feats you can use these to benefit your allies as well as yourself.


Your spellcasting comes from being a jack of all trades and your penchant for dabbling in whatever.





If that doesn't suit, consider adding the "beastmaster" pertaining to animal companion class features to your bard, dispersed in a similar fashion. You gain a plethora of animal companions.




For a more divine bend... your bard could now pick up the class features of a paladin, namely Divine Grace, lay on hands, special mount and instead of "Smite Evil" you could Bless Good, allowing you to grant a bonus to skills and saves for good creatures equal to your class level a number of times per day equal to the number of times you'd ordinarily be able to cast smite evil.

[Heatwizard]

Instead of NOT answering the questis question... or telling him to play a completely different class, let's try answering the guys question...


That question being what would be an equivalent class feature for the bard to take in the event he or she lost bardic music.


In the game there are two other similar abilities... Turn Undead and Wildshape.... however, in feats there's an alternative... Luck Feats.

Well, for one, if you're going to be unnecessarily condescending and rude, at least try to be witty about it. The majority of Bard runs on Bardic Music, so 'bards without the song' being just a different class is pretty reasonable.

For two, I'm no expert, but I don't think Bardic Music and Wildshape are equivalent.

[true_shinken]

Well, for one, if you're going to be unnecessarily condescending and rude, at least try to be witty about it. The majority of Bard runs on Bardic Music, so 'bards without the song' being just a different class is pretty reasonable.

For two, I'm no expert, but I don't think Bardic Music and Wildshape are equivalent.

You might be no expert but you're completely right. Wildshape is one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

Also, I must point out that aside from the luck-based thing, all alternatives visigani presented already exist as RAW for bards already without losing bardic music.

[Coidzor]

This variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bard)and the Eberron bard stuff that trades specific songs for feats (not very good ones, IIRC, since most are related to bardic music) are the closest in official material I can think of offhand.

It's not all that good, and beguiler + PrC Bard dip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard)gets you any bardic spells you wanted without investing in the music, really.

[ILM]

In print there's a variant in UA that gets you an animal companion (as druid), nature sense (as druid), resist nature's lure (as druid), wild empathy (as druid), sacrificing bardic knowledge, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness and inspire heroics. So while technically you don't lose bardic music, you do lose almost everything you do with it as a straight bard.

edit: also, this variant sucks. Just so I'm clear.

[Darth Stabber]

If we view classes as a metagame construct (a container for features), then the answer is likely Beguiler, though factotum, sorcerer, and rogue are all valid options.

If we don't adopt this view, then there are no ACF's published, nor would there be. Bard - music = expert x/sorcerer y. If classes are not metagame constructs then Bard is defined more by bardic music than any other class feature.

The only way to answer you question is why you would want to do that, and the answer in this section would inevitably be hand it over to the homebrew section as a homebrew request.

[wayfare]

Thanks for all the responses!

Beguiler is definitely on the table, though my initial concept was something like "Magical Swashbuckler" which I don't think beguiler does too well. I might end up going Duskblade, but that takes out a certain social aspect of the bard that I wanted.

Once again, thanks for the opinions!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Factotum can easily be a magical swashbuckler. Of course, he relies on intelligence and not charisma. But both are good swashbuckler skills.

[true_shinken]

Swashbuckler itself could be a magical swashbuckler. There is an ACF for this in Complete Mage and you could always prestige out (Suel Arcanamach and Dragon Devotee spring to mind).
Mystic Ranger works as well, specially with Sword of the Arcane Order.

[wayfare]

Factotum can easily be a magical swashbuckler. Of course, he relies on intelligence and not charisma. But both are good swashbuckler skills.

I tend to prefer Chameleon to Factotum.

[Darth Stabber]

Thanks for all the responses!

Beguiler is definitely on the table, though my initial concept was something like "Magical Swashbuckler" which I don't think beguiler does too well. I might end up going Duskblade, but that takes out a certain social aspect of the bard that I wanted.

Once again, thanks for the opinions!

Since you were looking at bard's relatively crappy spell progression, you may consider beguiler1/swashbuckler2/beguilerX. You'd lose out on 2 cl, and a few sill ranks (and the really good beguiler capstone pre-epic), but you would have basically everything you wanted with out having to rip bard apart. Of course that depends entirely on what kind of spells you wanted in the firstplace. If you want damage, duskblade is a reliable glass cannon, where as beguiler is more bardic in that the have the illusions and enchantments for which bard is known for. Also note the build I just gave you is the not optimized, just as close a fluff fit as I could make it. Do you want to be a gish, or just a caster/party face that is not utterly useless with a sword?

[Cog]

...Duskblade, but that takes out a certain social aspect of the bard that I wanted.
If it's certain skills you wanted, there are ways to change that (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0).

[Mordokai]

Thanks for all the responses!

Beguiler is definitely on the table, though my initial concept was something like "Magical Swashbuckler" which I don't think beguiler does too well. I might end up going Duskblade, but that takes out a certain social aspect of the bard that I wanted.

Once again, thanks for the opinions!

I fail to see what you mean by that. While factotum may be slighty better at the swashbuckling aspect, beguilers can do it very well themselves. They have the magic to back it up and natural inclinations for it(very high requsted intelligence and above average charisma) and skill points to back them up.

If anything, I'd say beguiler can make an admirable swashbuckler.

[Tokuhara]

I tend to prefer Chameleon to Factotum.

Why not play a Changeling Factotum/Chameleon? You can be whomever and whatever (to a degree) you want

[subject42]

Swashbuckler itself could be a magical swashbuckler. There is an ACF for this in Complete Mage and you could always prestige out (Suel Arcanamach and Dragon Devotee spring to mind).
Mystic Ranger works as well, specially with Sword of the Arcane Order.

I've played a Magical Swashbuckler 3 / Factotum in a campaign before. It worked perfectly as an almost-gish dashing outlaw type.

[Cog]

If anything, I'd say beguiler can make an admirable swashbuckler.
Something like an Incarnate can get away with 1/2 BAB because it has class features to get around that. Beguiler does not, nor does it mesh very well with a lot of gishy PrCs, and it doesn't have very many gishy spells, either. Knowledge Devotion will get you to the attack bonus that a plain Rogue merely starts with. You can get it to work, but you have to jump through a whole lot of hoops, and it probably takes most of your feats and class levels to pull off.

Beguiler is a fun class, but it's not really made for the buckling of swashes.

[Darth Stabber]

Something like an Incarnate can get away with 1/2 BAB because it has class features to get around that. Beguiler does not, nor does it mesh very well with a lot of gishy PrCs, and it doesn't have very many gishy spells, either. Knowledge Devotion will get you to the attack bonus that a plain Rogue merely starts with. You can get it to work, but you have to jump through a whole lot of hoops, and it probably takes most of your feats and class levels to pull off.

Beguiler is a fun class, but it's not really made for the buckling of swashes.

They do have heroism. While a gish heroism doth not make, it is a small edge. I would suggest splashing a level or two of some full bab class, if martial aptitude is desired. Actually warblade is INT powered, and full BAB, and the diamond mind discipline is very fencer friendly, and swachbuckling is a derivation of fencing. And you really only need one level of it to make dipping worth it (I end up with Warblade1 in a lot of builds).

[dextercorvia]

I'm going to say that Spellthief1/Duskblade5/Chameleon10/AbjurantChampion4 is going to do what you want. For feats, you want Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion, Power Attack, Master Spellthief, Arcane Strike. Obtain + Improved Familiar is optional, but a good choice.

[ffone]

Perform (dance) is awesome for a Bard. I remember someone saying they played a dancer Bard with bells tied to her clothes so as to make the dancing audible. It's also a requirement for Snowflake Wardance.

Well neat. I always wondered what the mechanically 'best' type of bardic music was:

- Singing and dancing seem favored to instruments so having free hands, needing actions to draw, getting it taken or sundered, etc. are nonissues (OTOH masterwork instruments, and the rare magic instrument with Perform(X) ranks or checks required)

- Singing seems favored to dancing so that people who can't see you can benefit; the bells are a clever way to dance around that. Also you can sing while immobilized

- But singing can be stopped by being silenced

The bells seem like the best of all worlds - no hands; you get the sound aspect even if your mouth is muted; you get visual and sound (so it works if you can't be seen or if in a Silence area effect, but not both).

Only downside I can think of is moving silently. But I guess you usually know in advance when you want to MS and could take them off and still be a regular dancer.

[Divide by Zero]

Perform (cowbell).

[subject42]

Perform (cowbell).

This has a synergy bonus with Heal when the afflicted character has a fever.

[Draz74]

So, the concept is "magical swashbuckler with good social skills"?

Bard could certainly work for that, even without any variants (just take Perform (oratory) if music in combat seems silly to you).

Barring Bard, my top recommendation would indeed be Factotum. Or multiclass stuff ... if you're starting at a higher level, the Swashbuckler / Suel Arcanamach idea could be quite nifty.

Or psionics. A Wilder (possibly with PrCs) can be a fun magical swashbuckler.

[Divide by Zero]

What about Perform(comedy)? Every swashbuckler needs to be skilled at bad puns and other quips, anyway.

[Thurbane]

Struggling to find a link, but wasn't there a WotC online-only PrC (possibly 3.0) that was pretty much an arcane swashbuckler? I know of Swiftblade, but I believe I'm thinking of a different one...

[dextercorvia]

Arcane Duelist. It's 3.0

[Hiro Protagonest]

Struggling to find a link, but wasn't there a WotC online-only PrC (possibly 3.0) that was pretty much an arcane swashbuckler? I know of Swiftblade, but I believe I'm thinking of a different one...

arcane duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a). Thank you google!

[Thurbane]

arcane duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a). Thank you google!
That's the one. My google-fu failed me - I was searching for arcane swashbuckler, and found arcane duelist just after you and dextercorvia had posted! :smalltongue:

Well that's underwhelming - I had forgotten that the class didn't progress casting at all...

[Coidzor]

Well that's underwhelming - I had forgotten that the class didn't progress casting at all...

Sorta defeats the point in my mind, really. Much like Arcane Archer's point is quite handily defeated by not progressing casting at all.


Mystic Ranger works as well, specially with Sword of the Arcane Order.

I'd just like to echo this if you can at all get Dragon Magazine material, and you're willing to fill in a couple of the blanks in regards to the spellbook. It's got the skill-focus and with Sword of the Arcane Order, it rewards an Int-focus. Without being a wildshaping mystic ranger, sword of the arcane order very handily fits in at 6th level the way natural spell does for druids.

[FMArthur]

Rangers don't have any social skills and are a little too MAD (especially with SotAO) for points in Charisma.

[Darth Stabber]

I'm going to throw this out there, take it or leave it as you choose:

1)Do be a bard with normal music.
2)Use perform(satire) for your music.
3)Take Dragonfire Inspiration (acid).
4)Profit.


Much like duskblade, you are adding magic damage to your melee attacks, but you are doing it for everyone.

[Coidzor]

I'm going to throw this out there, take it or leave it as you choose:

1)Do be a bard with normal music.
2)Use perform(satire) for your music.
3)Take Dragonfire Inspiration (acid).
4)Profit.


Much like duskblade, you are adding magic damage to your melee attacks, but you are doing it for everyone.

I don't have much to contribute beyond saying that I like the way you think sir. :smallbiggrin:


Rangers don't have any social skills and are a little too MAD (especially with SotAO) for points in Charisma.

True, I forgot about that. :smallfrown:

I think a non-wildshaping mystic ranger could very well become fully MAD if it also focused on its CHA synergy with the whole animal friend role in addition to the archery/fighting role (though there's a slight bit of increased synergy for Zen archery, it's still important to have dex anyway unless one goes for wildshaping mystic ranger and is the right level...

Human + able learner + a dip in Cloistered Cleric helps that out a lot on the skill front, especially since you'd have all the knowledges one would need and a knowledge devotion...