Is there anything Non-Epic characters can't do?

[Aemoh87]

This is a spin off thread, is there anything a party of non-epic characters cannot do? Without pun-pun?

[Jack_Simth]

This is a spin off thread, is there anything a party of non-epic characters cannot do? Without pun-pun?
If you ignore pun-pun levels of cheese, but otherwise allow everything?

You're probably going to have significant difficulty locating a specific task that cannot be accomplished by a full four-person party that's specifically tailored to that task. It might be possible to find one, but ... ah... it's not likely.

[Aemoh87]

If you ignore pun-pun levels of cheese, but otherwise allow everything?

You're probably going to have significant difficulty locating a specific task that cannot be accomplished by a full four-person party that's specifically tailored to that task. It might be possible to find one, but ... ah... it's not likely.

Yeah, well the original thread I started was Epic characters...

There are some deities out there that might be challenging for the players to beat especially if role played properly.

[Varil]

Be level 21.

[Veyr]

Other than "be Epic" (which a non-Epic character cannot do by definition), I'd wager the answer to this is the same as the Epic one.

If nothing else, a Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer who has done the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and has a Bard buddy who can use Inspire Greatness can qualify for Epic Spellcasting as a non-Epic character, so mostly he's just limited by how much he can pump his Spellcraft pre-Epic, which is not much of a limitation when you consider that he can use Epic Spellcasting to create Epic Items of +Spellcraft while still being, himself, non-Epic.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Be level 21.


Other than "be Epic" (which a non-Epic character cannot do by definition), I'd wager the answer to this is the same as the Epic one.

If nothing else, a Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer who has done the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and has a Bard buddy who can use Inspire Greatness can qualify for Epic Spellcasting as a non-Epic character, so mostly he's just limited by how much he can pump his Spellcraft pre-Epic, which is not much of a limitation when you consider that he can use Epic Spellcasting to create Epic Items of +Spellcraft while still being, himself, non-Epic.

These two together, with liberal reading, mean that even non-epic characters can be [EPIC] under the right conditions.

EDIT: Assuming a similar rule applies to DR epic as it does to DR magic, every wu jen who chooses to cast Transcend Mortality can become [EPIC] for at least a brief time.

[Keld Denar]

Can they see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

[TroubleBrewing]

In short, no.

[Glimbur]

Can they see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

No, because no one puts ranks in appraise.

[Sims]

What alot of people on this site like to do is create a build just to kill a particular monster in the epic level area. Rather than fight one with no knowledge as they would in real life against any competant DM.

Or at least, thats what I've seen.

EDIT: In a sense, they use "Player Knowledge" rather than "Character Knowledge"

[RaggedAngel]

Maybe we're just not thinking big enough. Could 4 nonepic characters make peace between Celestia and the Abyss? Could they make the Vestiges cease to be?

Killing things is easy in DnD; we have to think of non-combat challanges.

[kardar233]

Assuming I could find a way to get a ridiculous amount of AoOs, I could make a character using only official sources that could 1v1 a Hecatonchires and kill it with only physical damage, probably at level 18 or so. Just need to get enough AoOs.

[TroubleBrewing]

What alot of people on this site like to do is create a build just to kill a particular monster in the epic level area. Rather than fight one with no knowledge as they would in real life against any competant DM.

Or at least, thats what I've seen.

EDIT: In a sense, they use "Player Knowledge" rather than "Character Knowledge"

Therein lies the difference between practical optimization and theoretical optimization.

Also, Divination magic and the ability to boost your Knowledge checks to NI levels makes the boundary between PK and CK very, very, very slim.

[Seerow]

Maybe we're just not thinking big enough. Could 4 nonepic characters make peace between Celestia and the Abyss? Could they make the Vestiges cease to be?

Killing things is easy in DnD; we have to think of non-combat challanges.

Non-combat challenges are equally likely to succeed regardless of epic vs non-epic. Unless there's something new available at epic that makes you more likely to succeed, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to make it work at non-epic. So that sort of question is 100% irrelevant.

[Starwulf]

Assuming I could find a way to get a ridiculous amount of AoOs, I could make a character using only official sources that could 1v1 a Hecatonchires and kill it with only physical damage, probably at level 18 or so. Just need to get enough AoOs.

What is a Hecatonchires, and what manual is it in? I checked in the MM, MM2 & MM3. Is it in the 4th or 5th ones(don't have those).

[kardar233]

It's in the Epic Level Handbook. CR53 if I recall correctly.

Kalashtar version of the God of Smack using Bodyfeeder Large Heavy Gauntlets and Karmic/Robilar's could take it down solo.

[Starwulf]

It's in the Epic Level Handbook. CR53 if I recall correctly.

Kalashtar version of the God of Smack using Bodyfeeder Large Heavy Gauntlets and Karmic/Robilar's could take it down solo.

Wow, that was an interesting read. Even deities have a hard time fighting them. Awesome ^^

Is that the strongest monsters available in the 3.5e books? Certainly seems like it.

[Veyr]

What alot of people on this site like to do is create a build just to kill a particular monster in the epic level area. Rather than fight one with no knowledge as they would in real life against any competant DM.

Or at least, thats what I've seen.

EDIT: In a sense, they use "Player Knowledge" rather than "Character Knowledge"
Especially for an Epic character, the "character knowledge" more-than-likely greatly exceeds "player knowledge". Divinations are powerful, and the Intelligence of an Epic-level Wizard is orders of magnitude greater than that of any actual human being.

[TroubleBrewing]

Especially for an Epic character, the "character knowledge" more-than-likely greatly exceeds "player knowledge". Divinations are powerful, and the Intelligence of an Epic-level Wizard is orders of magnitude greater than that of any actual human being.

Veyr, you and I see eye-to-eye on so much stuff. You're just way, way better at explaining it.

[Aemoh87]

Maybe we're just not thinking big enough. Could 4 nonepic characters make peace between Celestia and the Abyss? Could they make the Vestiges cease to be?

Killing things is easy in DnD; we have to think of non-combat challanges.

This is more of what I was going for.

[Talakeal]

Wow, that was an interesting read. Even deities have a hard time fighting them. Awesome ^^

Is that the strongest monsters available in the 3.5e books? Certainly seems like it.

I don't think so, there are bigger things in the epic book. I believe the great wyrm prismatic dragon is the highest CR in any official book, but I could be wrong.

[kardar233]

I think that's the biggest official thing in 3.5. Still probably killable by most gods, even though it's higher CR than most of them. Before this edition, there were much nastier things.

[Alleran]

I don't think so, there are bigger things in the epic book. I believe the great wyrm prismatic dragon is the highest CR in any official book, but I could be wrong.
A Great Wyrm Time Dragon is even higher, but it's from Dragon #359 rather than an actual splatbook. The Rakshasa Rajahs from Dragon #337 have approximately 60 HD, but I don't recall it they have a CR listed.

Hilariously, Demogorgon himself is only CR 33. Most of the abominations and epic dragons in the ELH can either defeat him outright, or at least give him a run for his money.

[Endarire]

Short answer: A non-epic creature can't do anything that specifically requires him to be epic, like be level 21+. Wish, etc and minions. go a long way toward doing everything else.

An optimized Wizard that doesn't use every trick in the books to his full advantage (sample (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.msg119987#msg119987)) can still be nigh invincible or actually invulnerable pre-epic.

[Veyr]

Maybe we're just not thinking big enough. Could 4 nonepic characters make peace between Celestia and the Abyss? Could they make the Vestiges cease to be?

Killing things is easy in DnD; we have to think of non-combat challanges.
By strict RAW? My understanding is that "there is (or could be) an Epic Spell for that."

[blazingshadow]

Could 4 nonepic characters make peace between Celestia and the Abyss?diplomancer might be able to do that

[PirateLizard]

Having played epic characters in ADnD and 3.x, I believe the correct response is, "defeat something a very well-seasoned DM wrote up to challenge a ECL 36 party". They just don't have the HP or saves.

[Veyr]

Having played epic characters in ADnD and 3.x, I believe the correct response is, "defeat something a very well-seasoned DM wrote up to challenge a ECL 36 party". They just don't have the HP or saves.
By the rules, neither would matter. An ECL 20 character can quite literally ensure that no damage ever touches his HP pool, nor does he ever have to roll a save.

[Divide by Zero]

Draw a square circle?

[PirateLizard]

By the rules, neither would matter. An ECL 20 character can quite literally ensure that no damage ever touches his HP pool, nor does he ever have to roll a save.

So you can ensure those things don't matter, but a level 36 encounter cannot ensure they do? If you don't want to play past 20 because you think its moot, don't. If you do, I doubt you'll be allowing said effects.

If you walked into said DMs game trying to roll that you would what, automatically win because you say so? Please also note I said "defeat". I'm pretty sure there's more to the victory conditions than being a cheese ball. How about I amend this to "defeat something a very well-seasoned DM wrote up to challenge a ECL 36 party to his liking"?

[Alleine]

How about I amend this to "defeat something a very well-seasoned DM wrote up to challenge a ECL 36 party to his liking"?

That sounds just vague enough to be able to compete with a schrodinger wizard!

It also sounds vague enough to be the Blue Eyes White Dragon!

[Retech]

How about: defeat another party of four specifically designed and optimized to defeat you, but they are twenty levels higher + use all the cheese that you can use.

If you have a REALLY killer DM, there's not much that you can do.

[Aemoh87]

How about: defeat another party of four specifically designed and optimized to defeat you, but they are twenty levels higher + use all the cheese that you can use.

If you have a REALLY killer DM, there's not much that you can do.

lol I actually thought of this... and it comes down to a initiative/contingency/similar cheese/celerity/cheese topping sandwhich. But at a certain level you can beat almost anything if given a turn too.

Also whats with all the logic flaws, yeah they can't draw something that doesn't exist and so on. I mean actual things that are potentially possible, that non-epic characters can't do.