Final Fantasy General Discussion: The Biggest Swords Around

[dgnslyr]

Exactly what it says on the label. This is the place for your rabid fanboyism, your unadulterated hatred, your utter bewilderment, or what have you, concerning Square Enix's flagship series.

[psilontech]

Sign me up for hatred and bewilderment, please.


Oh, except for FF Tactics. That was actually a decent game, enjoyed it quite a bit. And III/VI as well, I suppose.



... Then came Final Fantasy Tactics: Advance. The only game which has forced me to take the cartridge outside, soak it in lighter fluid and cleanse the plastic with purifying flames.
(Master of Orion III nearly qualified for the same treatment, but back then I was still praying for a 'make everything better' patch.)

[dgnslyr]

I found FFIV and FFT great fun to play. FFVII was pretty fun, if heavily overrated, but definitely worth my while. Just started FFIX, and had loads of fun pecking the ground with my oversized chicken.

I actually didn't think FFTA was so bad, but I played it while still young and impressionable and before the pleasure of enjoying FFT. In retrospect, it was a decidedly sub-par game, but being able to GO GO ASSASSIN STORM LOLOLOL and breaking the game apart paved over the flaws in storytelling a bit. I'm still not too bitter, though, considering the target audience Square had to work with. I'd still like to see some manner of sequel using FFT's gameplay mechanics, though.

[Zevox]

I fall into the "bewilderment" category. I don't get the series' popularity. What I've played of it (4, 8-13 sans 11, a couple of spin-offs) has been a decidedly mixed bag ranging from terrible to good, but even the good ones haven't been that impressive. I can't understand how out of all the JRPG series out there, this is the one that attained widespread popularity outside of Japan.

Zevox

[Winthur]

I still keep trying to understand what exactly is so much fun about jRPGs. I don't know, maybe I enjoy it for no real reason. Maybe, for Final Fantasy, I just like to play it because of its classic status. Somehow, I'm always kept immersed with the world. I have to finish FF4, SNES version, too. I still don't get why I like this game so much. It's hard to explain. :smallconfused:

[Ogremindes]

I liked FFTA. A lot. One of the few games I 100%'d, even after having to restart (damned black thread).

[Fan]

I'm here just for completeness sake.

Let me just say I've played Mystic Quest and liked it.

I've yet to find one I don't find at least something absolutely phenomenal about it.

[Comet]

My favourites would probably be VI, VII, X and IV. Likely in that order, too. VI, especially, is just ace. VII was the first one I played, followed closely by IV. X was the first Final Fantasy I played after a long, long break and the story was really good and it had a good enough romance plot in it, which pleased me after the dissapointment and overhyped "love" story that was VIII.

And, for the record, I also like XIII a whole lot, though I can't quite play it without significant breaks in between sessions. Running down corridords gets old fast, but the story and mechanics are still good so whatevs.

[Terry576]

I've played... Oh let's see..

Remake of FFI
Remake of FFIII
GBA Version of FFIV
FFXIII (dear lord that was bad)
FFT: WoL (It's actually really fun. And good.)
FFTA (It's pretty amazing. People hate it?)
FFTA2 (Okay this was not so good.)

I liked War of the Lions the best. Ramza is the coolest guy, what with his grey morality questline and his inner turmoils.

[Cespenar]

FFT is the best of the series IMO, though it still suffers a little from "We have to make the story more complicated!" issue that Japanese writers seem to love.

[Triaxx]

Final Fantasy Tactics is was and will always be awesome in it's original form.

Except you know who, you know where. And if you don't, rejoice. It's the only game with a three quarters of a megabyte guide dedicated solely to the mechanics of the combat system, because there's so much depth to it.

And continuing from the other thread: Drawing Junctions is only time consuming if you haven't prepared properly for it. Drawing blind off the plants in the training center gives you the ability to disable most enemies you'll face, so you can draw from them without worrying about injury, and once you've got the initial spells, and refines, you don't ever have to draw more than one or two spells ever again, and those only because they're hard to find.

Exploiting the game is merely a manner of looking at numbers, and doesn't require a guide of any sort.

[Atcote]

Just started playing Final Fantasy VII through again... Well, that is to say, I started playing a saved game that I had done 40 hours on before I started university again.

There's something so charming about the simple graphics, and blatant anime style. I hate to be one of those in a camp to want to see a series regress a bit, but I wouldn't mind the next generation to go back to something more open world and 'cartoony'.

[Brother Oni]

FFT is the best of the series IMO, though it still suffers a little from "We have to make the story more complicated!" issue that Japanese writers seem to love.

Hell the mechanics are equally bad at times - hands up who used their knowledge of their characters' zodiac sign to influence who would attack who?

That said, I found nothing wrong with the story's complexity - it was a very political story and making it less complicated just turns it into your typical black and white morality, rather than the far more interesting shades of grey.

Now the original English translation of the story in the original release - that was a mess, which didn't help for understanding the plot.

[Tengu_temp]

Here are my opinions on various Final Fantasy titles:

1 - it was revolutionary when it came out, but it's pretty bad from today's standards.
2 - one gigantic experiment, and unfortunately a failed one. The worst FF title out there.
3 - the best of the NES era, but the existence of FF5, which is very similar but superior in every way, makes it redundant.
4 - the most overrated Final Fantasy title ever. It was very good when it came out, but it aged really badly and is at best average/okay by today's standards.
5 - on the other hand, the most underrated Final Fantasy title. The story is simple but very charming, the characters are fun, the music is awesome and the class system is one of the best out there.
6 - the best one. The characters are great and well-rounded, the story is epic and moving, the visuals are very good by SNES standards and the music is awesome by any standards. It has one of the fastest, least pain-in-the-ass combat systems I encountered in a jRPG. It's the only Final Fantasy title I think everyone should play.
7 - the second most overrated FF title, but unlike 4 I think this one is still very good. The story has its issues and the lego people graphics look silly, but it's still an enjoyable game. Overall, solid with some really great moments.
Tactics - very interesting story, the tactical gameplay is much more interesting than normal ATB bars, and offers a lot of customizing. On the other hand, the difficulty is very uneven, the game is pretty grind-tastic and the music is subpar in comparison to the FF norm. Still top 3 material.
8 - pretty bad gameplay, ridiculous storyline with lots of wasted potential, characters ranging from okay to ridiculously stupid and unlikable. It's not terrible and there are some rare good moments, but it's still one of the worst FF titles out there.
9 - very inconsistent: sometimes it's awesome, sometimes it's bad, most of the time it's okay. Some very fun characters, some very annoying ones. The return to a happy-go-lucky protagonist is refreshing. Has one of the best moments in all FF games (everyone who played it knows what I'm talking about).
10 - haven't managed to finish it. It's boring.
12 - played only a bit of it. Story and characters look good, but the gameplay is uninspired.
13 - I think it's a great title. It removed many elements that are not really needed in a jRPG anyway, and in exchange it gave us a tight, cinematic story. It has flaws, like having too many uninteractive action cutscenes, but it's still one of the best.

If I had to rank them from best to worst, I'd go with:

Awesome tier:
FF 6
FFT
FF 13
Good tier:
FF 7
FF 9
FF 5
FF 12
Skip It tier:
FF 8
FF 4
FF 10
FF 3
FF 1
FF 2

The series overall is okay. There are better jRPGs out there, there are also much, much worse. Its strongest point is the music, which is almost always excellent.

[MonarchAnarch]

I lol that everyone is turning a blind eye to the existance of FFX-2.

I'm a big FF fan, and bought FFX-2. So I took it to my friends house to debut, four FF fans waiting to see the new game. 30 minutes in, my friend starts this dialogue:

Friend: How much did you spend on this?
Me: I think it was $50.
Friend: Yeah, you could have gone and bought $50 of gay porn and had less gay than this.

True. True.

[Mx.Silver]

I fall into the "bewilderment" category. I don't get the series' popularity. What I've played of it (4, 8-13 sans 11, a couple of spin-offs) has been a decidedly mixed bag ranging from terrible to good, but even the good ones haven't been that impressive. I can't understand how out of all the JRPG series out there, this is the one that attained widespread popularity outside of Japan.


Probably on account of it being the first JRPG to hit the west and the nostalgia factor. In terms of success, name recognition and exposure have a lot more to do with success than anything else, and FF has had decades to establish itself. Hence why it remains so incredibly popular despite the existence of other, better JRPGs (Persona, Shadow Hearts etc.).


I lol that everyone is turning a blind eye to the existance of FFX-2.
That's because nobody wants to remember FFX-2. Nobody.

[Tengu_temp]

That's because nobody wants to remember FFX-2. Nobody.

Eeh, from what I've heard it's silly but overall better than FF10. And it's so campy on purpose, like Rocky Horror Picture Show, not by accident. I haven't played it so it's not on my list, though.

[dsmiles]

Sign me up for bewilderment, too. Really, Square-Enix? FFX-2? You should have called it Pretty Princess Dress-Up, and saved us all a bunch of hate. :smallannoyed:

[Tengu_temp]

I don't really understand the hate towards dress spheres. From my understanding it's pretty much the same thing as different classes in FF5, only with more fanservice due to better graphics and having a 100% female party.

[Zevox]

Probably on account of it being the first JRPG to hit the west and the nostalgia factor. In terms of success, name recognition and exposure have a lot more to do with success than anything else, and FF has had decades to establish itself. Hence why it remains so incredibly popular despite the existence of other, better JRPGs (Persona, Shadow Hearts etc.).
Except that it wasn't the first JRPG to hit the west. Dragon Quest (or Dragon Warrior, as it was then known in the west) predates it by a year, yet it struggles with non-Japanese audiences just as much as newer JRPG titles.

Zevox

[Tono]

Personally, T>8>9>Everythingelse>7. But thats just me.

I actually liked X-2's battle system. Being able to change jobs mid-battle was very nice, even if half the time I ended up everyone with one job, that was more of balance issues. (ie: Alchemist can spam mega-potion and heal everyone faster then the enemy can damage.) One of the only final bosses that I ended with full life without trying. That being said, everthing out side of a battle got annoying fast.

[dsmiles]

Except that it wasn't the first JRPG to hit the west. Dragon Quest (or Dragon Warrior, as it was then known in the west) predates it by a year, yet it struggles with non-Japanese audiences just as much as newer JRPG titles.

Zevox
Dragon Warrior didn't struggle too much for me. I loved it. Well, the first two. After that it got a little silly. I mean, Jesters? Really? Why make Jesters the most useful class in the game? :smallwink:

[Danin]

To say FF6 (3 in North America) was progressive for it's time would be a gross understatement. Not only did it subvert many of the established norms in JRPGs (The bad guy wins? Say what?), it also tackled many social taboos at the time such as teenage pregnancy, suicide and mental illness.

This, combined with a well paced battle system, challenging encounters, elegant character progressions system and technical achievements on the SNES came together to make a good game. Yet it was the plot that truly separated this one from the pack, with its deceptively simple protagonist/antagonist relationship and yet highly nuanced characters and enough twists and turns to keep you guessing.

I've played most the FF games (All except tactics, 8, 9 and 13) and this remains the only one that I am consistently motivated to go back and play through.

[Zevox]

Since others are doing it, how I'd rank the FF games I've played:

Enjoyed them:
FF 4 > FF 10

Mediocre, rental-worthy but not purchase-worthy:
FF 9* > FFTA > FF 12 ~ FF 13

Terrible, not worth the time I spent on them, much less money:
FF Crystal Chronicles > FF 10-2 > FF 8

*Note: I have not completed FF 9, but intend to go back and finish it at some point in the future, so its place in this ranking is not necessarily fixed.

I also played most of the way through FF Tactics, but couldn't follow the story due to the poor translations and some of the characters looking alike. I'm thus hesitant to place it until I get the chance to play the PSP version, which I hear fixes the translation issue.

Long story short, what I've learned from playing FF games is to always rent them first, not purchase them right off the bat.

Oh, apparently there was a playable demo of 13-2 (http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2011/06/final-fantasy-xiii-2-gameplay/) at E3. Looks like the combat is largely unchanged from 13, except for the addition of quick-time events to do things like dodge powerful enemy attacks. For me, eh. I liked 13's combat system (better than other applications of the otherwise-bad ATB system anyway), but can't say that I care for quick-time events. Besides, where 13 fell flat on its face with me was the story and characters, and the demo of course can't really tell me much about that, so it doesn't really help me.

Zevox

[dsmiles]

FF1 > FF2 > FF7 > the rest > FFX-2.

That sums it up for me.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Am I going to have to come in here and White Knight FF8? I found it very enjoyable for the first two discs.

Utter **** after that, but for the first two discs, it was great.

[Comet]

Am I going to have to come in here and White Knight FF8? I found it very enjoyable for the first two discs.

Utter **** after that, but for the first two discs, it was great.

My thoughts, exactly.

[Illieas]

anyone check out the new FF XIII-2 trailer? what are peoples thoughts?

I like it they made the world bigger, but kept the paradim shift system and a QTE extra damage thing. I personally like XIII combat. the animal companion or shape shifter part. i am not as happy about it because then you have pokemon got to copy/tame them all thing and I like human protagonists.

as for story, lightning seems to be out of the picture(presumed dead). Serah is now the protagonist. and now she is team with the young man Noel Kreiss and a moogle. seems Snow is out of the picture. good thing too. i think it was kinda creepy when serah that look like 16 and snow in his late 20s were about to get married. this noel guy also gives off some tidus vibe to me for some reason.

I am looking forward to it

[Zevox]

Am I going to have to come in here and White Knight FF8? I found it very enjoyable for the first two discs.

Utter **** after that, but for the first two discs, it was great.
The problem that drove me away from it is universal throughout: its combat and stat system is by far the worst I've ever seen in any JRPG. On top of the already-bad ATB, I have to put up with a magic system that discourages me from actually using magic, has me do something with that magic that makes no sense whatsoever (equip it to my stats? WTF?), and requires me to engage in the most tedious and rage-inducing practice I've ever seen in a video game: drawing magic from enemies. It would be be impossible for me to enjoy even if the story were worth a damn for that alone.


as for story, lightning seems to be out of the picture(presumed dead). Serah is now the protagonist. and now she is team with the young man Noel Kreiss and a moogle. seems Snow is out of the picture. good thing too. i think it was kinda creepy when serah that look like 16 and snow in his late 20s were about to get married. this noel guy also gives off some tidus vibe to me for some reason.
The Noel kid looks a lot like Fang I noticed. Lazy character design or intentional connection I wonder? Fang was the only character in 13 that I actually liked.

Anyway, I'm not really looking forward to it or anything at this point, but I'm sure I'll rent it so I can see if it's any good. The combat being so similar to 13's is at least one good point for it I can be sure of, which is more than I can say for most of the series.

Zevox

[Tengu_temp]

Noel looks like older Sora. The obvious development is to make a dog guy and a birdman join the party too.

[Sipex]

My thoughts, exactly.

I usually spew hatred from every oraface about FF8 but this opinion actually fits my overall opinion of the game pretty accurately.

I've always been a big FF fan ever since I played FF4 (Back when it was FF2) for the SNES. I don't know why mind you, there are a lot of complaints but when I play one it's just fun. I've played nearly all of them I think.

FF1 - Fun game, kind of grindy and confusing but not bad for a NES game.

FF2 - Meh. I played it through but I wouldn't do so again.

FF3 - This was infuriating at times, particularily the end sequence where you had to do an entire set of dungeons & bosses up to the end of the game without a chance to save. Job system was fun though.

FF4 - I have a soft-spot for this one because it was my first, therefore my opinion is biased. The new DS game was fun though, nice challenge.

FF5 - This was alright, ended up having to play it through on my GBA after getting most of the way on the PSX only to have my disc crap out.

FF6 - I've only played the PSX version and it was horrible (horrible load times, absolutely horrible). I want to reserve judgement for this when I have a proper copy to play.

FF7 - An overall fun game which, due to it's graphic style, doesn't actually look worse with every passing console generation.

FFT - Fun, infuriating difficulty spikes in some parts but overall it remains a great game.

FFTA - Would've been better had I not gotten constantly beaten by rules. No attacking with weapons? Seriously? Argh.

FF8 - Hated the second half of the story. Super pixel graphics make it incredibly hard to play nowadays too.

FF9 - My favourite of the series, I love the setting and the atmosphere.

FF10 - I enjoyed it. Kind of linear, yes but overall...fun. Switching out characters in battle was a nice touch.

FF10(2) - If they hadn't thrown the damn song sequence into the start of the game I might actually be able to play through this again. Kind of uninspiring in bits but the battle system was unique.

FF11 - Super grindy, and waiting for parties was horrible. I was a white mage by the way, so I had the shortest wait for any one party. Average wait was 1 hour.

FF12 - I found this incredibly fun...although I have no idea why. The battle system was just fun to play I guess. Story was too short for my tastes though. Would've liked if I could have magic for effective offense...as it is magic was used solely for buffs and healing.

FF13 - I had to slog through this which is unfortunate, I loved the character driven parts of the game. Overall it was just boring for me though.

FFCC - Had some good points and bad points. Good. Multiplayer. Bad. Everyone needs a GBA for no good reason. Never beat it unfortunately.

FFCC:RoF - Bottom of the rung for me, so much bugged me about this installment.

FFCC:MLaaK - Interesting concept, got to the point where I'd just constantly send my adventurers out to die without any real way of helping them though which got old fast (I re-arranged my town, no dice).

[Mx.Silver]

Except that it wasn't the first JRPG to hit the west. Dragon Quest (or Dragon Warrior, as it was then known in the west) predates it by a year, yet it struggles with non-Japanese audiences just as much as newer JRPG titles.

Yeah, that's always kind of puzzled me, especially seeing how huge DQ is in Japan. Either way, FF was probably the first JRPG series most western gamers played.


*Note: I have not completed FF 9, but intend to go back and finish it at some point in the future, so its place in this ranking is not necessarily fixed.
I rate IX higher than X, personally. Mainly because the only thing X has going for it is the combat system (no ATB, thank Tyr) and that's not enough to justify overlooking the plot, characters and writing. IX's not exactly spectacular on those grounds either, but by videogame standards it's still passable. Plus it lacks Blitzball.

[Bobbis]

Figured I'd throw in my 2 gil.

Favorites:
5 - Wooo, job classes.
6 - Fantastic all around, and a low level game makes for a great challenge, love the GBA remake as well.
Tactics - <3 SRPGs, and FFTactics ranks up there with Disgaea for my favorites.

Like 'em:
7, 8, 10, 10-2, 12 - not a whole lot of major comments here; I didn't find the draw system infuriating, and like the GF system, and while the plot of 10-2 was often goofy, there was a very solid battle system.

Decent enough:
1 (PS remake), 3, (DS remake) 4 (SNES) - Not a whole lot to say about these. They are what they are.
FFTA, FFTA2 - I like SRPGs, and these were solid enough if you don't go into them expecting the same quality as FFT.

Would never play again:
2 - I managed to make it so the final boss couldn't touch me in about 4 hours of gameplay due to abusing shields; weak mechanics, obviously not very well thought out.
9 - You play a robot monkey clone from space, I thought the plot was pretty awful.
11 - Grind so bad. On the bright side, WHM/NIN with dual hammers was very amusing.

Haven't played enough to judge:
Crystal Chronicles - (though it seemed enjoyable enough if you had 4 friends)
13 - (I don't own a PS3, but I had about a week with it. Seemed about as linear as 10, so I wasn't sure what people were complaining about.)

[Tono]

The problem that drove me away from it is universal throughout: its combat and stat system is by far the worst I've ever seen in any JRPG. On top of the already-bad ATB, I have to put up with a magic system that discourages me from actually using magic, has me do something with that magic that makes no sense whatsoever (equip it to my stats? WTF?), and requires me to engage in the most tedious and rage-inducing practice I've ever seen in a video game: drawing magic from enemies. It would be be impossible for me to enjoy even if the story were worth a damn for that alone.


Not always true, tbh past getting Siren[Doilet tower] I almost never draw magic except for a few rare circumstances as most magic that is really important can be drawn from the wild or made using abilities. I think Aura/meltdown and one or two others are the exception. Not to mention that from the plethora of GFs and this skills you get refining enough magic to make a mage type character is extremely easy. Hell 99% of the time at least one of my three is equipped with magic for Aura/Healing/status removing.

[deuxhero]

So, the Human Revolution Leak has a FF27 poster.

Wonder what the odds of the girl on it cameoing in a future Dissida are.

[MechaKingGhidra]

I love the series as a *whole* but I don't really care for this current paradigm (spelling?) crud. It just feels unnecessary to me, but then again, I wouldn't be suprised if I'm just biased due to wanting to keep things simple.

The original and FF IV are tied as my favourite(s) of the entire collection thus far.

Beyond the paradigm bias, I would think the only other bit that truly made me grit my teeth in disgust was when I still played my Gamecube and rented FF: Crystal Chronicles.

It was meh in my opinion for the most part, and at the final (or, perceived final, as I cannot remember correctly) boss I was overwhelmed by just how cruddy the camera angles were for both both forms.

First, having to run around a half-circle and avoid things when the boss' fat rear blocked the overwhelming majority of my screen was NOT FUN. And when I finally beat that, I get rewarded to fight a more powerful foe with attacks I couldn't even *begin* to register as such because the camera was set so far away from my character. :smalleek:

It also doesn't help that this second form's boss stage was practically an entirely white/light-blue background and adjusting television settings didn't have any effect on my ability to distinguish one characteristic from another. :yuk:

It was this fight alone that is the reason I feel games with control over camera angle and (more importantly, zoom) are a bloody-well godsend.

Great, now I feel compelled to look up this fight on YouTube because I wonder if anyone was as baffled by this as I was. :smallfrown:

EDIT:

So clearly my memories are partially corrupted as I was watching a very clear video of someone doing the first part of the fight and it was not nearly so bad as I remember it. Maybe it just felt overwhelming because of how little space there was to move around in that I just wrote it off as being the boss' fault.

As for the second part of the fight, I completely forgot about this and am surprised as I feel it was one of the more slick and overly wicked monster designs I have seen in the FF series to date.

The *third* part of this fight was what I felt was a complete effort in futility. However, watching others play this made me realize something: something was horribly horribly wrong with my particular copy of the game because I only WISH I could have seen that well.

That is so very discouraging, my opinion being tainted by something which was likely nothing more than a completely unique problem.

I will have to dig out my Gamecube, find a copy of the game and go through it all again just to see it properly. That is just....ugh. :smallannoyed:

[Triaxx]

I loved Final Fantasy 8. I could really have done without large parts of the story. (Like Rinoa.) But the awesomeness of Junctioning and GF's and Triple Triad completely makes up for it.

So does Zell. And Quistis and Selphie. And Irvine, who was totally awesome.

[Gnoman]

My ranking of the FF games (don;t have a system to play XIII, not an MMO fan so XI and XIV are right out:

FFXII: Ties with X for "second most horrible ability system ever (what were they thinking with the liscense board)," but makes up for it by far with the wonderful battle system where buffs actually feel useful (because they last for more than one combat, and you can set them up to autocast), massive world, and plenty of openness for almost all the game.

FFX: Easily the second best in terms of story, with great characters. Far too linear for most of the game. Bonus points for having blizball. An excellent battle system is a huge plus, but the Sphere Grid is horribad.

FFVIII: This game's story was beautiful, and the characters trump every other game in the series. If the system were not so horribly broken (it's virtually impossible for the game not to be obscenely easy unless you know how to make it hard, which is backwards) it would take the top spot. Innovative ability system and great style are a plus. Has Triple Triad, one of the best minigames in the series.

FF T: Brilliant story, although it would have been better if they hadn't included demons and focused on the political intrigue and class issues of the early game. Horribad translation makes it difficult to follow, and game gets far too eassy halfway through. Now that I know that it is possible to mod the game, this problem has greatly diminished.

FFIII: Here we see, in rudimentary form, mechanics that would be huge in the series. Changable classes make their first appearance, allowing for true character customization. Materia/Magicite makes a primitive and silent appearance in the form of the spells that can be shuffled between party members and stored in inventory. Staple character classes like Dragoons make their first appearances.

FFVI: An opera? In a SNES game? Pure genius. Brilliant music, and one of the most memorable and evil BBEGs ever. Solid difficulty curve, but tends to a little too easy in parts.

FFX-2: Never having been opposed to fanservice, and well-accustomed to disguised classes, the two biggest gripes of this game are a mystery to me. Tired old battle system returns in full force, but on-the-fly class changes helps a lot. The best part is that it allows you to see the world earn its happy ending after the great evil was vanquished.

FFV: Great customization on the characters, builds heavily on III. Average story. Difficulty decently balanced.

FFIX: Good story. Ugly art design. Far too easy (there was little need for Phoenix Downs in my experience) unless sequence breaking. Chocobo Hot and Cold is a fun minigame. Tetra Master is not.

FFI: Not much to say. Minimal story, slightly annoying mechanics, but solid dungeon crawl.

FFIV: Far too easy. Overly cliche story. Good characters.

FFVII: Materia's an interesting mechanic. Excellent music. Story would have been better without Sephiroth, Jenova, or Meteor and keeping the Shin-Ra Electric Power Company as the main antagonist. Annoying fanboys. Difficulty's too spotty.

FFII: Unplayable due to the absolute worst stat system in the history of RPGs.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The problem that drove me away from it is universal throughout: its combat and stat system is by far the worst I've ever seen in any JRPG. On top of the already-bad ATB, I have to put up with a magic system that discourages me from actually using magic, has me do something with that magic that makes no sense whatsoever (equip it to my stats? WTF?), and requires me to engage in the most tedious and rage-inducing practice I've ever seen in a video game: drawing magic from enemies. It would be be impossible for me to enjoy even if the story were worth a damn for that alone.

Fortunately, I realized (along with most people who stuck with the game, I think), that combat-drawing was fairly pointless aside from getting certain GFs and unique spells. You don't need a lot of equipped Magic early-game, and by late game you can just refine cards and items for all the good spells. And unlike combat, playing Triple Triad to get unique cards is actually fun, at least when you start getting a few rares and uniques of your own from the plot.

Also, casting magic is almost never as useful as summoning or base-attacking/limit breaks until the final battle, so you never want to cast regardless. Whether this makes the system better or worse, I'm not sure.

Overall though, Junctioning was a tedious and failed experiment, I agree. I just respect it for being an experiment, and unlike the annoying parts of FFXII's combat, they didn't bother trying to bring it back up again.

[Tengu_temp]

The biggest reason I liked Triple Triad was the theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoKxXASDGYw). You could play Drive Rusty Nails In Your Eyes to that music and it'd still be fun.

[Volug]

I'm really not that into Final Fantasy terribly much... Despite my avatar. Redmage will still be my favorite style of play in any RPG game.

I too will be making a list!


This is my favorite... Yes, yes it is. The story is STILL pretty good in my opinion (or at least the ending twist). The problem with the NES one that I first tried was that it took forever to level effectivly, GBA remake solved this problem so now it's a bit too easy. It's simplicity and lack of hour long cut scenes and dialogue is what makes me like it, especially class selection.
Tried it (GBA), could have liked it if the leveling up system didn't suck so much. Quit pretty early.
First FF game I've played (NES). I really really liked it when I was a lad. A long time later the remake came out and it's... A bit too "hard". I keep dying in 1-2 hits even though I'm considered a bit over leveled, and I do kill things in 1-2 hits as well (even some ending bosses). I really wished they lowered damage values... It also doesn't go well with the "Spells per day" sort of thing it has going on, and revive items/spells dont do anything as they'll just die once they rez (Unless you have full revive). I think it would have done a lot better ESPECIALLY if those damage values were lower all around.
This has my favorite normal boss battle music in the whole series. The 5 party system is neat, and it kept my intrests... Until I got late into the game then just stopped.
Haven't played
Haven't played
Over-hyped, yes. But I've recently started playing it again and it really isn't that bad of a game. I enjoy it, the problem is playing to the end takes so long and I forget about the game file for months or maybe years at a time.
Haven't played, DO NOT want to
Haven't played
I. Hate. Tidus.
Willing to try, but I probably shouldn't bother.
Didn't really like it due to the need for GRINDING SO MUCH. Though after years I picked it up again and after figuring out some tricks and auto-leveling I find it to be a lot more enjoyable and may finish it sometime soon.
I'm not going to bother
Total flop, why another MMO?


Crystal Chronicals (First one): I still play it for big parties with my friends! I hate that final boss though, going single player Yuke was a bad idea since bosses are too tough to beat for them. Dungeons were a joke though.

Rank would be...
(Great)
FF1
FFTA
FF7
(Good)
FF12
FFCC
(Meh)
FF3
FF4
FFTA2
(Ew)
FF2
FF10

I never played the first Tactics game, I started with FF:TA after I became a fan of the first Fire Emblem game. I really liked FF:TA, a lot. FF:TA2? Eh... In all honesty, it SHOULD be better... But the HORRIBLE characters and HORRIBLE story probably just made me lose complete interest in what should have been better, the gameplay doesn't feel better at all to me even though it IS better.

I'm trying to get ahold of the first tactics though.

[Tengu_temp]

I don't get what's good in FF1 from a modern perspective. It's good for a NES game, yeah, and good for nostalgia value or if you want to find out how very old jRPGs looked like. In comparison to more recent titles, though, the story is pretty much nonexistant, the gameplay is extremely simplistic and grind-tastic and most of the battles are just annoying. The huge random encounter rate doesn't help at all.

[RPGuru1331]

*Looks over the FFX-2 talk*

Why do people behave as though dresspheres are anything other than classes? You do realize that literally every Final Fantasy with a class system varies character appearance by class, right? Do people complain that FFV is pretty princess dressup because every character ends up with their own interpretation of a given class' sprite? FF3 is the same except for the 'their own interpretation' due to graphics limitations.

It's truly baffling. I mean, there are some problems with the game, principle among them being the music and the guide dang it, but the latter is pretty present in every FF from 8 on, and really only affects completists who just NEED a 100% (I sympathize, I do that). But no, people decide to say the game is pretty princess dressup because... why? Why would you let that kind of inaccurate statement mess with your enjoyment of a game with great mechanics and an excellent script?

[Sipex]

The idea of dress spheres was a risky one that only helped to compound the issue that a lot of people (including myself) had with the game.

See, on it's own right the game is pretty good, good battle system which challenges the player and is innovative, story is a bit underpar compared to it's predicessor and the re-hash of some areas seems a bit lazy. Overall it's still a good game.

But then you feminize it.

"YOU SEXIST-" you might start, but I say wait until I've finished.

Is it a bad thing that square made a game with an all female party? Not at all.

Is it a bad thing that everything suddenly had to take on classical female traits because of this? Kind of, it definitely tells us that square believes that in order to have an all female party the game has to have classical female elements (instead of say...normal elements like most FF games).

Now, add in the typical FF player at the time. Teenage boys. Sure, there were men and women and teenage girls all playing as well. Even kids. But Teenage boys definitely made up the majority amongst them and currently makes up the vocal majority of the games online.

Give them FFX-2, with all it's elements and how is this typical guy going to feel?

One of three ways.

1) He won't care. It's simply another FF game and he's able to deal with that.

2) He'll be immature about it, feeling like square made a 'girl game'.

3) He'll be incredibly embarressed, feeling like a pervert playing a fanfic.

I was in the camp of #3 and the game constantly screamed 'FAN SERVICE' to me at that age with the opening sequence not helping at all. I turned an interesting shade of red playing that in front of the family, I can tell you that.

[RPGuru1331]

The idea of dress spheres was a risky one that only helped to compound the issue that a lot of people (including myself) had with the game.
Do you argue that FFV's job system was a risky system?


Is it a bad thing that everything suddenly had to take on classical female traits because of this? Kind of, it definitely tells us that square believes that in order to have an all female party the game has to have classical female elements (instead of say...normal elements like most FF games).
It's the elements it always had in a class system. I'm not making this up.

http://sdb.drshnaps.com/objects/4/401/Sprite/Butz.png
Here's a sprite sheet of Bartz in every class available from FFV for instance.

Clothes change. Looks change. They are stylized to the character, such that the same class can look different between characters. This isn't novel and it wasn't a 'feminized' addition tot he games. It's taking a system FF always had and applying it to a game with a party that has no men in it.

[Sipex]

You misunderstand me. The idea system itself wasn't feminised. Job swapping has been in several FF games and on the fly is even in FF13.

Calling the system 'Dress Spheres' and putting the feminine flair on it and the transformations is more what I was going on. They didn't need to call it 'Dress Spheres' they could've called it 'Class Swapping' or something more interesting sounding but still neutral.

edit: If I remember right, the transformations are vaguely sailor moonish, aren't they?

edit2: Re-reading your post it seems I misunderstand you as well, but my main point, the fact that the system itself 'Dress Spheres', had to be feminised wasn't needed. The costumes looking feminine? I have no issue with that. FF has always made it's women look feminine.

[tonberrian]

I'll say I didn't mind X-2 all that much. Granted, I only played it for like 2 hours because I didn't finish X because that stupid chocobo game.

I had a time of 0:00:00! But you need less than that to get Tidus's ultimate weapon! *sobs*

[RPGuru1331]

Calling the system 'Dress Spheres' and putting the feminine flair on it and the transformations is more what I was going on. They didn't need to call it 'Dress Spheres' they could've called it 'Class Swapping' or something more interesting sounding but still neutral.
I'm going to assume you get dressed every morning. It's kind of a gender neutral thing. I'd buy this better if they were all dresses, but they're really not.

I really, really don't think that calling it a job system would have suddenly made everyone realize the inaccuracy of their claims of how it's all about pretty pink dresses. It really does seem more based on having stylized outfits for each job (Which has been a thing for a long time).


edit: If I remember right, the transformations are vaguely sailor moonish, aren't they?
The short transformation screen, yes. The extended ones are more about exit, stage left (usually with an explosion or magic), followed by a dynamic entry with a pose in a new outfit (Sometimes with an explosion).

[Sipex]

But yet it is seen as 'Dressing Up' which is associated with feminine traits. Possibly because of the extra flair on it I don't know and it's hard to get over that.

It could be argued that square simply meant 'Like getting dressed in the morning' like you reason but the fact that it's a risky term at best used on the first all-female cast game causes suspicions.

[Terraoblivion]

Suspicions of what? From what I can tell the only suspicions that can cause is that Square wasn't trying to solely market to the heterosexual, male teenage demographic and frankly I can't see anything wrong with trying to appeal to girls too. Even if the amount of fanservice might ruin that in a lot of cases, though it didn't for me.

Really, Square's newer tendency to focus more on the female characters is something I quite like. They really do tend to be a lot more developed a complex in newer games than they used to be and at least to an extent that started in X-2, though the weakness of the plot and the desire for fanservice weakened it a fair bit.

[Sipex]

But that's the thing, do they need to make it 'girly' to appeal to girls? Of course not. They don't make the rest of the FF games 'manly' (sans some choice characters), they're just RPGs.

And it's not like they haven't proven their ability to make non-stereotypical female characters before. FF5 and 6 had pretty deep stories, both with women who were more real than typical. Further FF games keep to this formula (with some obvious niche characters here and there of course) so it just seems odd that FFX-2 seems highly feminized.

Maybe it's the tinge of fan service that does it, I've noticed japanese fan service tends to take on the (stereotypical) traits of the gender focused on.

Also I was incredibly happy with FF13 on it's portrayal of Lightning and Fang, so much that they were in my final party.

[dsmiles]

It could be argued that square simply meant 'Like getting dressed in the morning' like you reason but the fact that it's a risky term at best used on the first all-female cast game causes suspicions.
It's not just the heterosexual teenage boys that give it the moniker of "Pretty Princess Dress-Up." My sister, who is 6 years older than me, is where I first heard it. She was in her 30's (I think, I can't remember what year the game came out) when this game was produced. All her female friends (and male friends, but that's another story) feel the same way. The Dress Spheres are what turned them all off of this game. It was a ridiculous implementation of what could have started off as a good idea.

[Tengu_temp]

I don't think if the dress spheres are supposed to appeal to little girls. I think they're supposed to appeal to male otaku who enjoy the moe/fanservice.

[Sipex]

That's even worse and explains my discomfort with some of them.

[Tengu_temp]

Why? From what I've seen on screenshots and artwork, very few of the dress spheres are actually skimpy. What's wrong with classy fanservice?

[Sipex]

Mainly? It makes me feel like a perv.

Or it did. I haven't played the game since my original playthrough at 17.

[RPGuru1331]

It's not just the heterosexual teenage boys that give it the moniker of "Pretty Princess Dress-Up." My sister, who is 6 years older than me, is where I first heard it. She was in her 30's (I think, I can't remember what year the game came out) when this game was produced. All her female friends (and male friends, but that's another story) feel the same way. The Dress Spheres are what turned them all off of this game. It was a ridiculous implementation of what could have started off as a good idea.
The irony of calling Charlie's Angels Pretty Princess Dress Up is really not getting any less ironic for being done by a woman. Paine and Rikku punch dudes out within the first 5 minutes. If that's what princesses do, sign me up.


Mainly? It makes me feel like a perv.
I can see that for some of them. Others are just awesome. Paine-Bard is Elvis, for instance, pelvic thrusts and all.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't care what anyone thinks of me for it. I want to play FF7 someday....even though don't got the time or resources right now....just have to be patient....find some way...

[MechaKingGhidra]

I don't care what anyone thinks of me for it. I want to play FF7 someday....even though don't got the time or resources right now....just have to be patient....find some way...

FF VII is one of the very few FF games I haven't played myself, personally. I'd watch others play this game for countless hours, ingest the story, figure out how the game is played, and laugh at horribly futile attempts to do some crazy act which ended in utter failure (ie super weapons) and be perfectly content.

However, one of my friends recently gave me his old Playstation 2 along with a second copy of the game (not sure why he had two copies but oh well, don't look a gift horse in the mouth, right?).

I think I'll have a bit of fun when I can actually manage to find the room to hook this beauty up and go at 'er with my previous 'experience'. My only real concern with this game is that it is the iconic image when thinking about Materia. I don't like the idea of using a combination of little stones to min/max.

I think I'm crazy because min/max tactics in various other games hasn't been a problem for me but with this game, I'd watch people do this and be overwhelmed and say offhand comments such as: "Sooo...Tiffany's is going to have a lot of business when you sell them all those rocks you're basically tossing in the trash, then?"

I never said it had to make sense. But I *was* referencing the jeweller store.

[T.G. Oskar]

Oddly enough, while FF7 isn't one of my favorite games, it isn't one I hate. When I got it for the first time, I was engrossed by the story and basically swooned over all the parts, including the no-need-to-spoiler-anymore event of Aeris' death, and the trippy sequences where Cloud lost control. However, I managed to pass the page, and I eventually found the rabid fanbase of the game to be a bit exaggerate on some terms, and the developers of the game (specifically Nomura; I have a whole skeleton's worth of bones to pick with that guy) stating Sephy is essentially the most powerful thing in existence in that world, before or after, which takes him straight to Villain Sue territory,

While I feel there's an equally rabid fanbase regarding FF6, however, it's still the one story I enjoy the most. I couldn't say it's the best FF game ever, but to me it's my favorite and thus I take a stance of taking it out of "top 3" or "top 5" if only because it would be unfair. Not only having such memorable scenes (the Opera is one, the flashback at the Esper world, pretty much everything from the beginning of the game to the battle at Narshe), a rather surprising female lead (not to mention the only character I would declare as my platonic love interest, which also forces me into a rivalry with a fellow Playgrounder), a wide and memorable cast, a villain whose guts I abhor so much that I would never forgive even if I were a Paladin and he was repenting for reals, amongst others. I do recognize the game could use a slight facelift and perhaps develop the World of Ruin segment a bit more (I do appreciate the uniqueness of having the group figure out what happens with the rest of the cast, and how throughout the game there's no defined main character, and if there is, the competition is between two females, but as someone else pointed out to me Kefka seems to do nothing after gaining absolute power), but I still find the game to be perhaps my favorite Final Fantasy, if not my favorite RPG, period.

I also played Final Fantasy Mystic Quest. I also appreciate that game, for it cemented my status as a geek. I'll make my niece play it, and if she asks why, I'll say "your mother played that game as well" (and finished it before me, oddly enough...), hoping it leads her through the path of geek as it did to me.

I have not many qualms with Final Fantasy 8, actually. It has an intriguing concept, and I find Ultimecia as a pretty conniving villain which assumes the traits of pretty much all of the other villains before her, and actually pulling off something only Kefka and the Emperor could pull (I'd say Exdeath as well), and to a degree that it requires a gamble to make it fail.

I have no appreciation for Sephiroth, just in case. Perhaps it's because of the fanbase, but after hearing the idea that he's pretty much almighty, immortal, and that his fanbase refuses to accept defeat and just claim he'll return back when everybody's gone and whatnot makes him lose quite a bit of villain cred. And I've discussed that with fans that actually have some good points regarding him, not the fanbase that, and excuse me if this sounds harsh, is easy to rebuke.

If I were to mention a FF game that I can't tolerate, that'd be Final Fantasy 9. Maybe it's the blocky characters, or the advancement system (which gets adapted in FF Tactics Advance and then turned worse on FFXII and FF Tactics A2), or maybe it's the really pointless true final boss, but it doesn't really convince me. Kuja gets mad props, though, and Beatrix is yet another great female character.

Oh, and I absolutely refuse to play FFXIII (or any derivative). I heard about the story, and how the characters are supposedly well developed, and how it has the second black character after Barret, but there's nothing that really convinces me to play it. Also one of the few games whose soundtrack doesn't impress me: songs like "Dark Messenger" and "Grand Cross" are amazing even if I don't like FFIX, but Hamauzu isn't my favorite composer. I'll probably find my way into hearing Agito's soundtrack if only because Yoko Shimomura is on the helm.

Regarding the other FF directors that aren't Sakaguchi or Kitase: please, for all that's good and nice and fluffy, take Kawazu away from Crystal Chronicles and make him churn another SaGa game. Pretty please with a non-maraschino cherry on top. Final Fantasy II is hated by a lot of people if only because it's either quite hard or a breeze because of the growth system, but I'm happy because it inspired SaGa's existence, which uses roughly the same growth system but vastly improved, and led to a game which still remains far advanced to its time (Romancing SaGa 3). And whenever Matsuno is at the helm of one story, let him have his time with it. FF Tactics and Ogre Battle are great works, and despite what people say I believe that FFXII is a great game (even if I haven't played it and might have issues with the License Board).

From the rest...I prefer FF 5 over FF 4 (better development system and one of the few villains whom makes a solo stand against the heroes in mid-adventure, not to mention a story that seems vast), and having FF 5 being one of my top 5 means the difference between the two should be pretty long. FF X is so-so; Auron is badass, Kimahri is badass, the Ronso are a Badass race, the Shyamalan-esque twist reveal was pretty unique, the exclusively underwater battles are pretty cool as well as the ability to shift characters in mid-combat, but there's issues with the rest. I'd love to play FF XI at least once, and FF XIV is right there with FF XIII in games I might not have the interest to play.

And with the other contention game (FF X-2)...I guess the real problem here consists on Yuna's sudden attitude change. She's entirely different from her X incarnation, replacing her position as the High Summoner that brought the Eternal Calm into...a J-Pop star that wields guns!? Really!? Paine is basically Auron's paradox clone-daughter (not in the Homestuck sense, but in the "Ingram <-> Cobray <-> Viletta" from SRW sense), and could have done well without that snazzy attire, and it does feel like a "girly" game if only because portrayals of females in videogames is oddly still on diapers (either too girly or too manly, and if The Escapist people is right, not even Samus Aran can be considered a true and respectable female character), so an all-girl team (and especially an all-girl trio, right at the moment where oddball series like Totally Spies was airing) definitely gives off that vibe. Don't have many issues with the Dresspheres (I don't care if it's dress-up, it's a class system and I approve of class systems, and the Garment Grid's bonus abilities are awesome) aside from the developers' intention to bounce amongst classes like if they were...erm, underwear...to get the special Grid bonuses instead of the more refined system that began with FF 5, flourished in Tactics, improved in TA and culminated in TA2 (which I consider has one of the best class systems around, only utterly crushed console-wise by Seiken Densetsu 3's utterly superior class system).

That leaves the very first one (which is basically a mish-mash of Dungeons & Dragons 1e, 2e and Wizardry) and FF3 (not the American FF3, but the one that came for DS which...well, has a decent story but not something extraordinary). I guess I covered all. Not counting FF: Spirits Within or FF VII AC/BC/CC/DC or FFV's direct-to-video sequel, and with the brief mentions of FF: Crystal Chronicles and FF Tactics Advance/A2.

[Winthur]

I still keep trying to understand what exactly is so much fun about jRPGs.

(Quoting my own posts yeah)
OH MY GOD I DEFEATED THE KING OF ALL DRAGONS AND CAN SUMMON HIM WHENEVER THE HELL I WANT

OH MY GOD I FLEW TO THE MOON ON A SPACESHIP

OH MY GOD THIS GUY IS MY BROTHER

OH MY GOD I JUST KILLED ONE OF THOSE ANNOYING TITANS WITH SUMMON CHOCOBO

OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD

[Triaxx]

I really liked FF9, partly because of the characters in the story, because they felt like real characters. And the love story felt... natural, rather than crammed in because they suddenly felt it needed one. I even liked the ability system.

Frankly, I played and hated both FFTA and FFTA2. They were just... no fun.

[banjo1985]

Final Fantasy 8 is my favourite, followed by 9 and 10. I've played over a dozen FF's and none of them have held my attention or have drawn me into the story in the way these three games did. I tell FF fanboys my top three and they tend to giggle and call me offensive names:

"WTF? How can FF7 not be your best game EVAR?!!!1!!one!!!1"

Because my best game ever played isn't a Final Fantasy, it's Grandia, so there. :smalltongue:

FF7 was alright, but I just couldn't get into the story and I dropped it after a disc or so. I've still got the game somewhere if I decide to try again.

FF8 had a great world, amazing characters, a fantastic and addictive card game, and a story that kept me interested and entertained from start to end. Rinoa didn't annoy me, and drawing magic just seemed fine. A little slow, but fine. I loved this game so much I bought the Triple Triad cards they bought out, that's how sad my obsession was. :smalleek:

FF9 was also great, it just didn't quite hit the heights of FF8. Gaia was a charming little world, and several of the characters were great and likeable, Freya and Vivi in particular. I liked the set-up of Tantalus and the nasty Queen Brahne, and then Kuja being an A-grade lunatic just added to the fun. The Chocobo treasure hunt sidequest was good fun, but Tetra Master wasn't as good as Triple Triad. I still bought the card game of that though too. :smalltongue: The final boss was a silly move that made no sense in regards to the story whatsoever, but the ending afterwards was pretty good so I can forgive that particular faux pas.

FFX was also very good. The combat was entertaining, and sometimes challenging to boot. That weird sphere grid for character advancements was odd, but I thought it worked and didn't have any problems with it. The characters were decent but weren't as strong as the above two games. Tidus and Yuna didn't annoy me as most people tend to say though. I also liked the diferent take on summons. Blitzball was alright, but not a patch on Triple Triad. I didn't really play X-2 long enough to have an opinion on it, but the airheaded girl-power style dialogue and character actions didn't exactly endear the game to me. It was a bit like watching a Spice Girls video. :smalltongue:

None of the new games have really drawn me in. FFXII was alright but I couldn't connect to Vaan or any of the other characters, and I got bored after about 12 hours. FFXIII I've played for about half an hour, then put aside and never got back to. Linear corridors followed by battles where I only have limited control over what my characters do? Bugger that, this is a game, I'd rather like to play it if you don't mind!

[Gnoman]

Did you play XII long enough to realize that Vaan's pretty much a background character, with Ashe and Basch as the protagonists?

[RPGuru1331]

Did you play XII long enough to realize that Vaan's pretty much a background character, with Ashe and Basch as the protagonists?

Although this is fact, I will be fair and say 4 hours or so is a bit much for the main character to show up.

...Maybe. It's valid storytelling, but it's hard to feel weird when people don't like it.

[banjo1985]

I had heard that, but it kind of made me wonder why they bothered starting the game with Vaan and tried to make me give a monkeys about what he was getting up to, rather than just making Baasch and Ashe take centre stage.

It wasn't enough to make or break the game for me though, so I might get back to it at some point. Be aware that you're talking to someone who still has the original Mass Effect and Oblivion on his list of games-to-get-around-to-at-some-point. :smalltongue:

[Sipex]

Rumour has it that either Basch or Balthier was the original starting character but then to appeal to what the producers thought the fans would want (and the teenage girls in their audience) Vaan was shoehorned in.

I heard this upset the director pretty badly and he quit shortly afterwards.

[Toastkart]

I though IX was really good, but it was also the first one I played. On the subject of the final boss, this in depth analysis (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197338-final-fantasy-ix/faqs/36121) offers some interesting theories, and is a good read besides. The gameplay was fun, the characters were interesting, and it was overall a good experience.

I played VII and VIII much later and was not as impressed. VII had good gameplay, but I always felt the story was full of holes. Also, Sephiroth was kind of a letdown as a villain. He had a lot of buildup, but was totally trounced when we actually fought him. VIII was just boring from beginning to end, I'm kind of sad to say that I actually finished it.

Final Fantasy Tactics is, I think, the best. I replay it pretty frequently. Yeah, the translation has some errors, but it never kept me from understanding what was going on. I like the complexity of both the gameplay and the story. My only real complaint is the difficulty. I think story based fights should have scaled with level like the random battles did. It would have made the boss fights much more satisfying.

I also played X. It was too linear for my tastes, but overall it wasn't bad. I also started playing V, but never finished it.

[Hyudra]

Final Fantasy Tactics is, I think, the best. I replay it pretty frequently. Yeah, the translation has some errors, but it never kept me from understanding what was going on. I like the complexity of both the gameplay and the story. My only real complaint is the difficulty. I think story based fights should have scaled with level like the random battles did. It would have made the boss fights much more satisfying.

Do you do any self imposed challenges in FFT, Evrine?

Straight character challenge: Playing with 5 people in one class from Dorter to endgame, using only that class' skills and abilities. (I love these. Currently in the endgame series of battles as geomancer, just prior to such with samurai, and midway through chapter 2 with squire. I love doing thief, but they need powerleveling before Wiegraf/Velius and I always get bored.)

Pokemon challenge: Ramza with mediator primary/secondary, can only invite monsters to your party from Dorter onwards.

Solo ramza challenge: Ramza alone. No party members.
Each has level caps, so you can't level to 99 in chapter 1 and roflstomp every story encounter. I find it makes some otherwise tame boss battles rather intense, when you don't have some of the wtfpwn options you do in a conventional group. You also come to see some aspects of the game in a whole new light (skills and items you'd never think twice about become invaluable). The general lack of reliable heals or rezzes is a big boost in natural difficulty.

Like fighting Adramelk with a party of knights (such a pain, since you can't move fast enough to close in against dycedarg, and he murders faces if you close in too much).

[Gnoman]

Try the FFT 1.3 mod. (You'll have to google it.) It makes the game extremely hard.

[Hyudra]

I felt 1.3 kind of ruined the flavor by screwing with core classes, though. Like, half the skills and items don't work the same way.

You can mod the game so enemies have tons of JP (and consequently, lots of skills to draw from) and scale with your level, though. Recommended.

[Gnoman]

There's several different ones. I reccomended 1.3 because it's the one I'm currently trying. I can't get past Dorter.

[GungHo]

To say FF6 (3 in North America) was progressive for it's time would be a gross understatement. Not only did it subvert many of the established norms in JRPGs (The bad guy wins? Say what?), it also tackled many social taboos at the time such as teenage pregnancy, suicide and mental illness.
Honestly, I'm not into remakes, but I wouldn't mind a high-res FF6. Don't change the script, don't "upgrade" the core gameplay, or anything else. Just make it look pretty on my big TV.

[Murdim]

The games I've played so far, in rough chronological order :

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance has a great gameplay, and frankly, that's all that I expected from it. I didn't care that much for the protagonist or the main plot, but some side characters were likeable enough, and I would've wished I could mess a bit more with the world of Ivalice than what was actually possible in game.

Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles is a decent dungeon crawler, and like all decent-or-better games in its category, it has the potential to become somewhat addicting. Fortunately (or not), it has enough frustrating and repetitive aspects to discourage even the most tenacious players after a few in-game years of intensive play. The multiplayer was a good idea, but unrealistic in most cases, and with only two players, isn't even really worth the hassle, much less the price of two GBA and two cables.

Final Fantasy I was surprisingly enjoyable, despite the basic story, basic graphics, basic gameplay and basic everything else... or maybe because of it.

I didn't "get" Final Fantasy II. Apparently, not many people did. Not much more to say about it, really.

Final Fantasy IV is pretty much the archetypal JRPG. As such, it's an honest game that I enjoyed much, but there's really nothing that makes it stand out for me. Besides being a revolution for its time, that is.

Final Fantasy V is a pretty cool game, eh kills evil trees and doesn't afraid of THE VOID. The story doesn't take itself too seriously, but it does have the most emotional moment by this point of the series. By the same occasion, it also breaks Square's infamous habit of giving us final bosses that we have no reason to care about on a personal level. The class system was fine, but since I had played FFTA (much) before, I found it quite frustrating to have to go back to an earlier, more frustrating version of the same system.

I couldn't really get into Final Fantasy III, for the obvious reason that I had just finished to play its superior-on-about-every-point spiritual successor. Maybe I should try again some day.

I have a weird relationship with Final Fantasy VII. Like most everyone else, I always thought there was way too much hype around this game (and the Final Fantasy series in general) for what it actually is. And now that I've actually played this game, after years of (non-hateful) (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HateDumb) aversion (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HypeAversion), I still stand by this position, despise the hype by that much more, and do not regret at all having waited for so long.
The thing is - I actually loved FFVII. It's just that apart from the general plot, the game that I've experienced has pretty much nothing to do with what I've been hyped and counter-hyped about for years. Part of it may be because I lived the story from a somewhat unusual viewpoint (basically Tifa's rather than Cloud's), but even that cannot explain how a lively, savvy, energetic, independent, somewhat careless trickster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SacrificialLion) living from her charms and her wits is remembered in the collective mind as a naive, otherworldly, self-sacrificing little lamb (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SacrificialLamb). Or how Cloud went from an awkward, terminally dependant dork with ****ed-up memories and a piece of Lovecraftian abomination in him to a stoic, angsty loner who supposedly became the archetype for all JRPG protagonists. Or the insane amount of hype around Sephiroth. Or...

[Nerd-o-rama]

The answer to all those questions is "bad fanfiction" and Square cashing in on it.

[Toastkart]

Do you do any self imposed challenges in FFT, Evrine?

I've never done any challenges like you describe, but I generally take just Ramza and a party of generics using mostly the mid-tier classes.


Try the FFT 1.3 mod. (You'll have to google it.) It makes the game extremely hard.

I've got the original cd that I bought new years ago and a ps2, not much modding you can do with that. Wish you could, though, that would be awesome.


I felt 1.3 kind of ruined the flavor by screwing with core classes, though. Like, half the skills and items don't work the same way.

You can mod the game so enemies have tons of JP (and consequently, lots of skills to draw from) and scale with your level, though. Recommended.
I took a quick look at 1.3, and I kind of agree, it doesn't even seem like the same game. In general I'm a little wary of what it would take to mod the game. That being said, I would pay for a pc version that was easily mod-able.

[T.G. Oskar]

The answer to all those questions is "bad fanfiction" and Square cashing in on it.

Speaking of bad fanfiction, here's a fast one:

Assume the following: Jenova wasn't really killed, but she somehow got alive. She essentially "reincarnates" in the form of Aeris, and somehow convinces Cloud to do a turncoat and go evil. This forces AVALANCHE and the Turks to join, and when the going gets rough, they convince Sephiroth to join and deliver a beating to the two, with a climatic battle with Cloud at the end.

I'll give you about an hour to clean up that brain with bleach and finish shuddering.

Now, can you imagine a friend of mine claimed this was the reason the current developers of the Final Fantasy games decided to decline going for any other future Final Fantasy game OR FF VII sequel (instead of, you know, a baton pass? Because somebody supposedly revealed the secret behind the sequel of FFVII (notwithstanding that the actual sequel is between Dirge of Cerberus and Advent Children...)

I still can't imagine how that "My Immortal"-grade fanfiction pitch could ever become a sequel. Now, if that were true (I mean, I had to defend FFVII when I usually don't!), and if the person who said that is the person I think of (*coughcoughtetsuyanomuracoughhackwheeze*), then I might be laughing for a good while. Though I don't believe that story could ever be true; I mean, it topped the meter I use (which is based off a synonym for one of the two components of the Bull's Strength spell in D&D) after hearing about 2 seconds out of it.

So yeah, I do believe that might be a fast hoax, but if it does, it completely redefines the quote above.

[Seerow]

Do you do any self imposed challenges in FFT, Evrine?

Straight character challenge: Playing with 5 people in one class from Dorter to endgame, using only that class' skills and abilities. (I love these. Currently in the endgame series of battles as geomancer, just prior to such with samurai, and midway through chapter 2 with squire. I love doing thief, but they need powerleveling before Wiegraf/Velius and I always get bored.)

Pokemon challenge: Ramza with mediator primary/secondary, can only invite monsters to your party from Dorter onwards.

Solo ramza challenge: Ramza alone. No party members.
Each has level caps, so you can't level to 99 in chapter 1 and roflstomp every story encounter. I find it makes some otherwise tame boss battles rather intense, when you don't have some of the wtfpwn options you do in a conventional group. You also come to see some aspects of the game in a whole new light (skills and items you'd never think twice about become invaluable). The general lack of reliable heals or rezzes is a big boost in natural difficulty.

Like fighting Adramelk with a party of knights (such a pain, since you can't move fast enough to close in against dycedarg, and he murders faces if you close in too much).

You missed the best challenge: Solo Single Class Challenge. Those are a huge bitch, and require a lot of preplanning and hundreds of resets for the perfect RNG on some of the levels, but it's a great feeling of accomplishment to finish one. (Though something like Full Calc, or Ninja is just easy).




Anyway, yeah. FFT is by far my favorite final fantasy. I invested well over a thousand hours playing it, and many times that on the GameFAQs FFT forums, including the FFT Challenge board and the Supertact board (place where people used to do pbp FFT matches, with one person as a ref handling the RNG and such. Lot of fun, but a ton of work).

Honestly I didn't care for the story a whole lot, the translation was pretty terrible in some places and a lot of the plot really stretched credibility, but the game itself was good enough I really don't mind it all that much.

Then of course came the abomination that was FFTA. If they would have just left well enough alone and given us the same combat system with a new story, it would have been fine, but they went and hybridized it with FF9, and except with weapon drops that are all sorts of random unless you follow specific guides... yeah that game pissed me off enough even without considering the story that was frankly just retarded rather than stretching what I'm willing to swallow. I haven't even looked at FFTA2 because of it.

On the core Final Fantasies, I'm only really familiar with the playstation era games. The NES/SNES Final Fantasies I played when I was young and barely remember, and the ones from FFX onward have been disappointing. I kind of liked FFXIII's battle system, but instead of an actual world, it was a series of hallways.

So onto the playstation era final fantasies, which I remember a bit clearer:
FFVII-Probably the most popular game of the franchise. I'm of the opinion it's vastly overrated, but still a good game. It's got plot holes a mile wide, but you can ignore them and have a good time. I particularly enjoyed the Materia system for the sheer customization it allowed, and would love to see more games that used it. The systems used in the core final fantasies since have been rather disappointing in comparison. My main FFVII file has like 5 sets of Master Materia, and several mastered materia of just about everything else, just to give an idea of the sort of time I put into maxing out materia to play with it. So yeah, that's definitely the high point of the game to me.



FFVIII-This was my least favorite final fantasy. Seriously, I couldn't stand it. The Drawing/Junctioning system was terrible. I hated the card game (I actually preferred the one that got put in FFIX, which was similar but with less retarded rules), which most people put forth as the high of the game. And finally, the story broke it for me. I can put up with stupid **** in a story. But this was almost as bad as FFTA.

I was okay with the first half of the story, so you're a newly minted soldier out to take part in some war. Cool starting point. But by the time disc 3 rolls around and you get to the "We all grew up in an orphanage together, with the BBEG as our mother and the GFs made us forget!" I get pissed and shut off the game. A few years later, I wonder why I hated the game so much, and give it another shot. Rinse and repeat. Like seriously, the stupidest most unneeded plot twist ever.

It doesn't help that not one member of the main cast has any redeeming quality about them. Squall is an emo annoying ****, Zell is just an annoying ****, Rinoa has no personality, and I can go on down the list. I really just couldn't get attached to any of the characters. Then you throw in the random dream sequences where you take over Laguna, where even once you find out the reason behind them it still doesn't come off as something that was so relevant you had to spend an hour at a time wandering through dream world to see it.

So yeah, I just don't get people who enjoy this game, at all.


FFIX-This game on the other hand I liked. I consider this the anti-FFVII, because I like it for the exact opposite reasons. I liked FFVII for the materia system, but didn't care much for the story. On the other hand FFIX, as someone else noted earlier in the thread, had characters that felt real, and a plot that actually made some modicum of sense. I hated the weapon-skill system, and how straight jacketed all of the characters' roles are. I also didn't like the Chocobo Hot and Cold minigame, where the Chocobo Racing was a great source of entertainment from FFVII. But the graphics were smooth for the time, even if they were cartoony, and the setting fit, and the story was entertaining. The villains ranged from silly to awesome, but they were universally entertaining, and that is what a game is all about, entertainment. But I'm honestly happier with the idea of FFIX as a movie than as a game.

[Hyudra]

What about the theory that Squall...
Died when Edea stabbed him through the chest with a huge hunk of ice?

To clarify, things only really start getting wacky after that point. Roombas, out-there plot direction, etc. What if all of that was, for lack of a better term, a dream?

After being stabbed: "My wound... it's gone?"

It also explains some of the gaping plot holes. Like, what hapened to the Galbadian occupation of Timber? You return after chapter 1 and it's normal. Nobody even mentions it.

Galbadia Garden disappears and never returns.

Yadda yadda.

[tyckspoon]

rd game (I actually preferred the one that got put in FFIX, which was similar but with less retarded rules)


Really? I have to admit I don't understand that at all- Tetra Master's rules were never fully explained to you in game (like what each one of the numbers/letters on the card actually meant) and once you actually did go find out what they meant.. the card battles were so -ing random that it didn't matter. 9 strength magic card against 1 strength defense? Doesn't matter! Your randomly chosen starting value of 128 loses against the other card's randomly chosen starting value of 6! How? They're never going to tell you! The only redeeming value that game had was being almost completely irrelevant to the rest of the game, so there was no real pressure to play it if you didn't enjoy it.

[Seerow]

Really? I have to admit I don't understand that at all- Tetra Master's rules were never fully explained to you in game (like what each one of the numbers/letters on the card actually meant) and once you actually did go find out what they meant.. the card battles were so -ing random that it didn't matter. 9 strength magic card against 1 strength defense? Doesn't matter! Your randomly chosen starting value of 128 loses against the other card's randomly chosen starting value of 6! How? They're never going to tell you! The only redeeming value that game had was being almost completely irrelevant to the rest of the game, so there was no real pressure to play it if you didn't enjoy it.

Yes, but FFVIII had the annoying rules varying by location. And the rules at each location constantly evolve. And changing those rules to what you want involves a huge time and money investment, and typically even then you need a guide to figure it out. I prefer the FFIX game for its simplicity. I don't consider either a great card game that I would willingly spend hours on, but I do think FFIX's is easier to get into and used to if you do care. Maybe FFVIII did have a better/more reliable core ruleset, but that doesn't make up for the random getting a ruleset that makes you lose all of your cards when you lose, or worse, losing one of your best cards even when you win.

[T.G. Oskar]

You missed the best challenge: Solo Single Class Challenge. Those are a huge bitch, and require a lot of preplanning and hundreds of resets for the perfect RNG on some of the levels, but it's a great feeling of accomplishment to finish one. (Though something like Full Calc, or Ninja is just easy).

SSCC Mime? Or maybe SSCC Archer? SSCC Squire (non-Ramza) or SSCC Chemist aren't so bad, but Mime is just annoying and Archer loses a lot of steam after you get guns. They aren't the godlike beings of Tactics Ogre, where dealing over 100 points of damage on a single hit while striking at 9+ squares on a game with a max HP limit usually within the 300-500 limit... Then you get the overtly washed down version of FFT, which has the annoying Charge mechanic which really, really doesn't work. Though, if you have a huge amount of Brave, a Thief with Speed Save/Adrenaline Rush gets pretty monstrous.


Then of course came the abomination that was FFTA. If they would have just left well enough alone and given us the same combat system with a new story, it would have been fine, but they went and hybridized it with FF9, and except with weapon drops that are all sorts of random unless you follow specific guides... yeah that game pissed me off enough even without considering the story that was frankly just retarded rather than stretching what I'm willing to swallow. I haven't even looked at FFTA2 because of it.

I actually like what they did with the classes, though they could have done some polishing and definitely drop the "learn stuff through the weapon you wield". That's really the most annoying thing, actually, since you might have a struck of luck and get a weapon that teaches Firaga...or stay with Fira pretty much until the end of the game.

From FFTA's class system, I abhor certain classes (specifically the annoying Gadgeteer/Tinker which makes absolutely no sense, and the Morpher which was pretty pointless; FFTA2 has the Spellblade covering for that) but otherwise I find pretty nice mixes (aside from the Sniper/Assassin mix most people tend to favor, or the odd high speed Chocobo Knight eventually going into Juggler for insane turn delivery). It needs some polishing, and definitely remove the odd way of learning abilities, but it's a system that shows promise (although it'll never beat, of course, the SD3 class system).

Regarding Materia: IMO it's a mixed bag. By the moment you realize that you get Master Materia, the whole customization schtick really loses steam, since you no longer have the motivation to build a character as you desire. FFXII's License Board is much closer to true customization since everyone starts with only a minor nudge to what they want and they can be build as you might desire (nudges being the weapon choices and perhaps a minor inclination in stats), but FFVII still has very defined roles that Materia cannot really alter. It's slightly more intuitive than growth based on Junction (though you can alter Guardian Forces into "classes", actually, to simulate a FFV-based system), though.

And regarding Triple Triad...Random + Direct. Sorry for that.

[tyckspoon]

And regarding Triple Triad...Random + Direct. Sorry for that.

Fair enough. It's been a while since I played without systematically demolishing all the really bad rules (usually Random, Plus, and playing crap cards until the trade rule changes if it's actually managed to get stuck on Direct..which it usually doesn't, because it trends back to One pretty fast. Same can stay because nobody can match you anyway if you're using a high end cardset and Elemental is mostly harmless.) I'm pretty sure it doesn't take any longer than the time spent going "FFFFF you lucked into two of my GF cards *reset*"

[Mx.Silver]

What about the theory that Squall...
Died when Edea stabbed him through the chest with a huge hunk of ice?

To clarify, things only really start getting wacky after that point. Roombas, out-there plot direction, etc. What if all of that was, for lack of a better term, a dream?

After being stabbed: "My wound... it's gone?"

It also explains some of the gaping plot holes. Like, what hapened to the Galbadian occupation of Timber? You return after chapter 1 and it's normal. Nobody even mentions it.

Galbadia Garden disappears and never returns.

Yadda yadda.
I've never bought that at all. Mainly because the only real arguments for it are 'but the storyline has loads of plot holes and is a bit stupid otherwise'. The problem is that it's just far more likely that all the problems with the story are just that: problems.
My reasoning for this is pretty simple: none of the main final fantasy games are particularly well written. It's also worth considering that VIII is notable for the fact that Hironobu Sakaguchi wasn't on the writing team, and that there was some discontent among staff about VIII anyway. All of which just makes it far moe plausible that VIII is just a badly written game. The 'Squall's Dead' hypothesis just strikes me as being an example of wishful thinking from fans who'd rather not admit that the game's story is rather poor.

[SITB]

Yes, but FFVIII had the annoying rules varying by location. And the rules at each location constantly evolve. And changing those rules to what you want involves a huge time and money investment, and typically even then you need a guide to figure it out. I prefer the FFIX game for its simplicity. I don't consider either a great card game that I would willingly spend hours on, but I do think FFIX's is easier to get into and used to if you do care. Maybe FFVIII did have a better/more reliable core ruleset, but that doesn't make up for the random getting a ruleset that makes you lose all of your cards when you lose, or worse, losing one of your best cards even when you win.

Tetra Master is literally random. It's a great big pile of Calvinball with some cards added into it. True, Triple Triad had some awful rules, but liking a card game that's basically a disguised coin toss that later is mandatory to the plot is perplexing.

[Seerow]

SSCC Mime? Or maybe SSCC Archer? SSCC Squire (non-Ramza) or SSCC Chemist aren't so bad, but Mime is just annoying and Archer loses a lot of steam after you get guns. They aren't the godlike beings of Tactics Ogre, where dealing over 100 points of damage on a single hit while striking at 9+ squares on a game with a max HP limit usually within the 300-500 limit... Then you get the overtly washed down version of FFT, which has the annoying Charge mechanic which really, really doesn't work. Though, if you have a huge amount of Brave, a Thief with Speed Save/Adrenaline Rush gets pretty monstrous.

Chemist is probably one of the easier SSCCs thanks to auto-potion, but it's fun. Mime isn't just annoying... it's impossible. Unless you're confusing the SCC with SSCC. SCC mime can be annoying, but fun once you get used to dealing with all your attacks being mimed, and lining your stuff up to make it work. SSCC mime is basically a monk without gear or abilities.

Similarly, SSCC archer is a huge pain. As you note, the charge mechanic is actually fairly weak for what it does. If the charge times were about 1/4th of what they are it wouldn't be so bad... but you literally cannot use charge+20 without wasting more than one turn on it.

Knight SSCC was the most difficult one I actually completed. Though Addy was a huge pain.




I actually like what they did with the classes, though they could have done some polishing and definitely drop the "learn stuff through the weapon you wield". That's really the most annoying thing, actually, since you might have a struck of luck and get a weapon that teaches Firaga...or stay with Fira pretty much until the end of the game.

Well a lot of the base mechanics got changed. iirc the clock tick mechanic was totally changed, which was a big thing I enjoyed with FFT. But the biggest annoyance was definitely the weapon requirements. If it was more like FFIX where all weapons showed up in shops relatively early it wouldn't be so bad, but a lot of weapons depended on random drops/finds, so to get the best weapons you needed a guide.

I also think that the extra races was an unnecessary complication. I don't care about nu mu or banga. Moogles as a playable race is kind of cool in theory, but it really wasn't needed.


Regarding Materia: IMO it's a mixed bag. By the moment you realize that you get Master Materia, the whole customization schtick really loses steam, since you no longer have the motivation to build a character as you desire. FFXII's License Board is much closer to true customization since everyone starts with only a minor nudge to what they want and they can be build as you might desire (nudges being the weapon choices and perhaps a minor inclination in stats), but FFVII still has very defined roles that Materia cannot really alter. It's slightly more intuitive than growth based on Junction (though you can alter Guardian Forces into "classes", actually, to simulate a FFV-based system), though.

On the contrary, I found Master Materia actually opened up more customization options. Yes, having a person as your dedicated black mage or white mage doesn't work so well anymore, but with enough materia, you can still get some cool specializations. For example I had my setup that could solo sephiroth without touching the controller (Long Range, Cover, fill the rest of the slots with counter-attack).

I had a setup for a summoner with MP-Turbo Master Summon, MP-Absorb Master Summon, HP-Absorb Master Summon, Add Effect Hades on armor, Add Effect Hades on attack, W Summon, and final-attack phoenix. The end result was basically a ribbon without using the accessory slot, add all those status effects on a normal melee hit, and any summon would deal high damage and absorb basically full HP and MP. I want to say there was also a quadra-magic KotR, I know I tried it, I cant remember if it worked. If it did work it took so long I rarely used it.

There was also a similar lineup with master magic materia instead, with a couple extra magic+ and MP turbos, and a quadra magic linked in to mastered Comet materia, to get a series of 32 comet hits in via a 8xcast of comet 2, for 9999 damage each.

I also had a setup for when harvesting stat+ items via morph in the gelinka, a bunch of sneak attack and blue counters paired with morph.

And of course there's far more, those were the setups I'd commonly use. While you're right that the characters have base stat growth that encourages them towards one role or the other, you can in fact max out your stats to 255 in everything (though you don't really need to go -that- far), so if you want Cid to be a magic attacker rather than a brute, it is wholly possible.

Basically the tl;dr: If you were using materia just to gain ability access, yes the master materia could ruin it. If you were taking full advantage of blue and pink materia, then master materia is just the start of what you can do with the system. If we got another materia based game, I'd like to see more of those and make more of the combinations works (for example blue counter + double cut for some reason doesn't work. I was disappointed to discover this, because I figured being able to spend two materia for a 4 hit counter attack was a great idea. Similarly Slash All doesn't play nice with blue materia either.)

[RPGuru1331]

Rumour has it that either Basch or Balthier was the original starting character but then to appeal to what the producers thought the fans would want (and the teenage girls in their audience) Vaan was shoehorned in.
Really, the fujoshi meme is here too? If a cheap appeal is going to be made at demographics, the primary target of that cheap appeal is going to be teenage boys.

If Balthier or Basch were intended as the MC, it doesn't really bear out in the plot. Ashe is the Main Character (The story revolves primarily around her), and Balthier is her Foil. Basch is the loyal sidekick, Vaan and Penelo play in the sand, Fran stands around looking hot.

Tetra Master isn't entirely random. There are, however, large numbers of hidden stats that give the appearance of randomness. I don't remember it being necessary to the plot though.

[SITB]

Really, the fujoshi meme is here too? If a cheap appeal is going to be made at demographics, the primary target of that cheap appeal is going to be teenage boys.

If Balthier or Basch were intended as the MC, it doesn't really bear out in the plot. Ashe is the Main Character (The story revolves primarily around her), and Balthier is her Foil. Basch is the loyal sidekick, Vaan and Penelo play in the sand, Fran stands around looking hot.

Tetra Master isn't entirely random. There are, however, large numbers of hidden stats that give the appearance of randomness. I don't remember it being necessary to the plot though.

Middle of the game has the Tetra Master tournament and I am pretty sure it has a large of randomness regardless of 'hidden stats'.

Also, the whole 'bishounen' protagonist IS a major appeal to the teenage boy demographic. In japan. See NieR Replicant for instance.

[Gnoman]

I've got the original cd that I bought new years ago and a ps2, not much modding you can do with that. Wish you could, though, that would be awesome.


Modding it requires the original CD, or at least you can use it as part of the process. You won't be able to play it on the stock Ps2, but what you need is pretty reliable.

[tyckspoon]

Middle of the game has the Tetra Master tournament and I am pretty sure it has a large of randomness regardless of 'hidden stats'.


You have to play it, but you don't have to be any good at it- no matter how you do at the tournament the story will advance, and the reward for winning isn't anything really huge, so the impact on the game proper is minimal.

[Tirian]

Really? I have to admit I don't understand that at all- Tetra Master's rules were never fully explained to you in game (like what each one of the numbers/letters on the card actually meant) and once you actually did go find out what they meant.. the card battles were so -ing random that it didn't matter. 9 strength magic card against 1 strength defense? Doesn't matter! Your randomly chosen starting value of 128 loses against the other card's randomly chosen starting value of 6! How? They're never going to tell you! The only redeeming value that game had was being almost completely irrelevant to the rest of the game, so there was no real pressure to play it if you didn't enjoy it.

The basic idea wasn't that hard to work out once it gets explained. The four stats are your physical strength, your magic strength, whether you were an physical or magic attacker, and your hit points. When I attack you, my card gets to choose whether it is a physical or a magic fight based on my stat, then we each choose a random number between 1 and that stat's strength and the person with the lower score loses the difference in hit points until one is dead. So there really shouldn't be a surprise when a mid-range magic card beats an elite physical card, and it is still possible for a card to lose against an inferior card of the same type but that will become increasing unlikely as the relative strength between the cards grows.

All that being said, understanding Tetra Master still doesn't want to make me want to "complete" the game (which, so far as I can tell, would be having exactly one copy of each of the 100 cards and no duplicated arrow patterns among them).

[Terry576]

You guys you guys

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1755/finalfantasytacticsadva.png

I have serious problems you guys. :smallbiggrin:

[TheLaughingMan]

I love how VIII is getting the most support because it's the most hated game in the main series. Only you, Final Fantasy. :smallwink:

On the topic of games:

I: Decent, I guess. It's a bit hard nowadays to go back to barebones RPGs like the first, but a fairly solid game in its own right.

II: Haven't played, but I'll give it a little love for introducing major stories to the series.

III: Haven't played.

IV: Oooohhh, I'm gonna get some flak for this, but I just don't see much in IV nowadays. Yes, revolutionary. Yes, extremely popular. But it really doesn't hold up as well for me. Another solid game, (with great voice acting :smallbiggrin:), but nothing too spectacular.

V: Now this one is awesome, if only the GBA translated one. The fun translation, and the refined Job-system really make this one. Plus, Gilgamesh!

VI: A favorite of mine. Solid story, solid characters, solid gameplay. The major beef I have with this one, however, is the hype. At least with VII you have enough counter-hype to balance it out, but holy crap. The endless praises heaped on by the fandom do not cease.

VII: Not much I can say that hasn't been said. I liked the story, characters, and setting, but the battle system was simply average. Advice to newcomers: Avoid the Compilation at all cost, with the half-hearted exception of Crisis Core.

VII: The major reason I really detest this one is for its mediocrity. It's not the greatest game ever, but it doesn't dip into so bad it's good territory either. The playable cast is composed of flanderized versions of previous characters (Squall, Riona), annoying (and in one case traitorous) characters (Zell, Selphie) and the rare awesome character (Quitis, Laguna). Story takes a back seat to romance (and not even a very well-written one). Battle system is average. Triple Triad is a plague upon my existance. :smalltongue:

IX: This one needs more love. It really is that sort of Wind Waker of the franchise: Everyone considers it child's play thanks to the art, though the way the story is handled speaks of a greater maturity than previous titles. It doesn't need to be dark or edgy to accomplish its goals, and recognizes that. Fairly good story, great characters, okay battle system. A personal favorite.

X: *Tidus and Wakka flashbacks* AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH


Also, the whole 'bishounen' protagonist IS a major appeal to the teenage boy demographic. In japan. See NieR Replicant for instance.

I see your NieR and raise you Raiden.

[RPGuru1331]

Also, the whole 'bishounen' protagonist IS a major appeal to the teenage boy demographic. In japan. See NieR Replicant for instance.
I would agree. They have a different conception of what they want from a man, perhaps, I don't know or care why.

It's not the same as "They were trying to appeal to the gross fujoshi and totally forgot their core demographic" BS I usually see that argument tied to.


X: *Tidus and Wakka flashbacks* AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSzCwFu1dYY

[TheLaughingMan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSzCwFu1dYY

I knew what that would link to, and yet for some reason I clicked anyways. I'm a sucker for punishment undying torment.

[psilontech]

Damn you people. Partially because of this thread I was forced to dig through a box of old games, dust off FFT and spend nearly an hour looking for a PS1 memory card.

Load everything up, find my old savegame still there and... I suppose I completely forgot how to play the damn game!:smalltongue:

Apparently I had been going for a solo Ramza challenge, level 68 and going into a battle where I had no effing clue what was going on.

Starting a new game right now, but my god, the sheer time it takes to place a single letter for some of these cut-scenes is obscene.
Letter ........ another letter. .... Oh hey, another letter. Hey, I think I know what the word is now! One more letter to go before the word is done! Yup, it was totally 'before', it only took half a minute for it to come up!
... I'm going to go outside for a smoke and maybe the sentence will be done by the time I come back!:smallbiggrin:

[Kurai]

Oh, Final Fantasy! Me likey. FF will never take the place of 'most awesome series ever', because it's too inconsistent and often badly written for that, but I will always buy it for the fun aspect and the fact that I have awesome childhood memories of some parts.

I-VI: Haven't played them, sadly. I would love to get my hands on VI one of these days, though.

VII: I liked it, but that's it. I'm easy to please, so I have no great expectations. The characters were interesting and I liked some plot points and though I don't hate Sephi, I also don't believe he's the top of the crop. Cloud's sword I think was awesome, but Sephiroth's...? Talk about compensation, man. I would certainly love to play it again with 'awesum graphix'.

VIII: Haven't played it myself, but sat next to players for about 80% of the story. So I can't really comment on the ridiculous grinding for magic you do... other than that it's ridiculous. I remember watching an amusing review about that aspect. The story was fine, in my eyes, minus the whole 'same orphanage' aspect and the stupid romance shtick. Much love for Quistis and Laguna, heaps and heaps of hate for Rinoa and some for Squall. Triple Triad? You could chase me around the globe with games like that.

IX: I admit, I underappreciated it for a long time. But is one of the better games, if you can look past the weird child-like graphics of the characters. But the characters were fun and I take ten Garnet's happily over one Rinoa. The story was interesting despite the dumb end, but I throw bonus points like confetti for my favorite villain of all time: Kuja. I love that guy. Beatrix, Vivi and Freya also come to mind, so I think this is a well rounded game.

X: Much points for the interesting story, in my opinion. I loved the world and the whole atmosphere of Spira. The characters were... okay, Lulu, Auron and Yuna were the only ones I really appreciated, though. The fights were fun, though I think the Limit Breaks were stupid. Well rounded game, it kept me interested and had the most diverse side stuff for people who are into that.

XII: Well, yeah. Didn't like it, won't play it again. I played a good portion of hours myself and saw huge parts at a friend's house and also the ending. Which was... epically stupid. The characters were boring and uncreative (with the exception of Balthier and Freya, why the heck didn't they make the game about them?!) and if I see one more weird, annoying teenage boy who wants to become a sky pirate, I think I'm going to scream. They didn't even have the usual Bestias (other than as ships, yeah, awesome..) and the leveling was... less than mediocre. This is just my own impression of course, but this one I think was the weakest part of them all.

XIII: Now here comes a beauty. Incredible graphics aside, I think I'm making this my new favorite game... yes, despite the linear battle system and world. The world they created was very cool, the fact that the history it spans goes across several hundred years is pretty fascinating. While playing, I loved the fact that the characters stood between two equally uninviting options and had to find reasons to go on, while on the same side I liked the switches they did between story-telling and fighting. I didn't mind the new ATB system and X-button meshing, because my personal focus in roleplaying falls on other aspects. The one thing that makes XIII in my opinion so darned good are the characters. It's the first time I really felt for FF characters and really could understand their differences and goals, I honestly cared for each of them. Hope in particular had the most interesting character growth I have seen in all of the FFs. Still, I give a huge minus for the hit-and-miss that were the side missions... I can understand the lack of freely running around due to the story, but the side missions were lackluster and out of place.


So, anyone here seen the news about FF XIII-2 up to now? I admit, I'm incredible underwhelmed so far. After the great characters of XIII, I'm not quite sure that new guy Noel can keep up with them and I sincerely dislike the thought of Sarah as a main character. I liked her... but on the side lines and as a plot point. Noel and Sarah together feel too much like your typical FF main team, especially after the diversity that dear grumpy, loveable Lightning set. On the other hand, the fights get a little freshened up, which is pretty positive.

[Drascin]

That's because nobody wants to remember FFX-2. Nobody.

My cousin had it. I played a big deal of it. It was more fun than a lot of the entries in the series, really. To this day I have never been able to play FFX to the end, but I beat Angra Mainyu in FFX-2 for fun.

But then, I also liked FFTA and FFTA2. Bad stories, yes, but such entertaining gameplay.

Also, I find there's not enough love for the "offshoots" of the series. Crystal Chronicles is an amazing series (let's forget the Wii one for a moment), and the original GC one is still one of the most beautiful and atmospheric games in my shelf.

[RPGuru1331]

Also, I find there's not enough love for the "offshoots" of the series. Crystal Chronicles is an amazing series (let's forget the Wii one for a moment), and the original GC one is still one of the most beautiful and atmospheric games in my shelf.

Forget the Wii ones? But My Life as a Dark Lord and My Life as a King were the most interesting-looking of the bunch, from what I've seen on the wikia. Only played hte original, was not personally a fan though they seemed neat enough.

And yes, I noticed they did not have nearly so much attention to detail as the others. Again from the wikia, but...

[Seerow]

Starting a new game right now, but my god, the sheer time it takes to place a single letter for some of these cut-scenes is obscene.
Letter ........ another letter. .... Oh hey, another letter. Hey, I think I know what the word is now! One more letter to go before the word is done! Yup, it was totally 'before', it only took half a minute for it to come up!
... I'm going to go outside for a smoke and maybe the sentence will be done by the time I come back!:smallbiggrin:

It takes so long for those letters to go up because the developers got paid l.... i... t... t... l... e... m....o...n...e...y...

[Drascin]

Forget the Wii ones? But My Life as a Dark Lord and My Life as a King were the most interesting-looking of the bunch, from what I've seen on the wikia. Only played hte original, was not personally a fan though they seemed neat enough.

And yes, I noticed they did not have nearly so much attention to detail as the others. Again from the wikia, but...

I was talking about The Crystal Bearers. Which is... bad. I admit I tend to forget about My Life As.

[SITB]

I would agree. They have a different conception of what they want from a man, perhaps, I don't know or care why.

It's not the same as "They were trying to appeal to the gross fujoshi and totally forgot their core demographic" BS I usually see that argument tied to.

But their core demographic is japanese teenagers who dig that thing. Apprently Vaan was the main charcter because in Vagrant Story having a an old lead didn't work out.

Or possibly, I don't get your point.

[T.G. Oskar]

But their core demographic is japanese teenagers who dig that thing. Apprently Vaan was the main charcter because in Vagrant Story having a an old lead didn't work out.

Say what? Ashley Riot is old?

...Well, anyone over the age of 30 is considered old in JRPGs, but Ashley does fit somehow the demographic aimed at: funky hairstyle, odd clothing... The only thing is that it's more of a 30-something than a youngster; in fact, it'd be someone rounding 25 years old.

Vaan...makes no sense. Except it appeals to the demographic that shows inclination towards the metrosexual trend, something that's currently losing steam in the Western world (unless I'm wrong, but IIRC rugged and manly is once again "in") but that never lost steam in Japan/South Korea. Probably later we'll see a character that has a strong Visual Kei flavor (not glam metal; we already have that with Nikki on Chrono Cross), since that seems to work so well with the demographic?

Still, it's question of perceptions. The Japanese (and to an extent the South Koreans) find the range of 16-30 the appropriate adult age, with 31 and higher representing battle-hardened veterans enjoying their retirement. In the Western world, the range of 18-50 the appropriate age for a character, and anyone that's still going on at 51 or higher is definitely a man (or woman) to behold.

Probably one of the reasons why The World Ends With You was so popular; it actually exploited the idea of trends, and thus people here and there could feel identified, except for those who don't identify with any trend in particular (or rather, that isn't much of a fan of mainstream) which might not find the characters interesting in first glance.

[Terraoblivion]

Honestly, western fondness for ruggedness is far more puzzling than a Japanese and Korean fondness for softer looking men. Throughout most of history and across most cultures, men have put as much care into their appearance as women with results that would often seem highly girly to modern, western perspectives. Just look at eighteenth century paintings of men.

In general it seems that the modern, western ideal of masculinity stems from a mix of 19th century ideals of masculine rationality and inspiration from choice bits of Greek writing. This in turns conceptualizes concern for appearance and any hint of softness of appearance as inherently feminine. Given the inherent misogyny of both cultures, that naturally puts a concern for appearance as anti-masculine and threatening to the male self who largely governed the society of the 19th century. Like so many other things from the 19th century, this appears to still be quite influential in the culture of Europe and those nations culturally descended from Europe. This makes it like conceptions of the mental fragility of children in the face of learning about sex or the existence of different social identities based on sexual attraction. There's no reason why the Japanese would have adopted it wholesale, lacking this tradition for fetishizing ruggedness as the epitome of masculinity.

[SITB]

Say what? Ashley Riot is old?

...Well, anyone over the age of 30 is considered old in JRPGs, but Ashley does fit somehow the demographic aimed at: funky hairstyle, odd clothing... The only thing is that it's more of a 30-something than a youngster; in fact, it'd be someone rounding 25 years old.

Vaan...makes no sense. Except it appeals to the demographic that shows inclination towards the metrosexual trend, something that's currently losing steam in the Western world (unless I'm wrong, but IIRC rugged and manly is once again "in") but that never lost steam in Japan/South Korea. Probably later we'll see a character that has a strong Visual Kei flavor (not glam metal; we already have that with Nikki on Chrono Cross), since that seems to work so well with the demographic?

Still, it's question of perceptions. The Japanese (and to an extent the South Koreans) find the range of 16-30 the appropriate adult age, with 31 and higher representing battle-hardened veterans enjoying their retirement. In the Western world, the range of 18-50 the appropriate age for a character, and anyone that's still going on at 51 or higher is definitely a man (or woman) to behold.

Cloud is one of the oldest FF protagonists, he is also 22 years old. Ashely is also married if I recall correctly.

And you lost my point, the bishounen look is popular in japan and that's what the game core demographic targets, saying that 'rugged and manly is in' only applies to the west; which isn't Square-Enix core demographic.

[Terry576]

If we're on the subject of FFXII, might I remind you that Vaan wasn't supposed to be the main character.

Basch and Ashe were supposed to be the main characters. It's from a gameplay perspective. When you see Vaan leading the party, you assume he is the main character. You were supposed to (http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20060902/ff10.htm) be able (http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20060902/ff11.htm) to choose who led the group originally.

And then they ditched it, and awkwardly tried to shoehorn Vaan as a main character.

Ah ha, here we are. Wikipedia quote:


Basch was initially meant to be the main character of the story, but the focus was eventually shifted to Vaan and Penelo when the two characters were created later in development.


On a side note, I hated the characters of FFXIII. Lightning was the generic emo protagonist, Snow was like Sora if Sora was permanently on Prozac all the time.

"We might be turned permanently into crystals? No problem, it'll work out!"
"This kid hates me with such a passion that he might kill me in the middle of a battle? It'll all work out!"

Hope was just whiny as hell all of the time. Venale or whatever was... creepily insane. "yay, monsters are attacking!"

And the black guy whose name I can never remember had no reason to be involved in the game. He was like bad comic relief.

I got up to half way through the second disc. Stopped when they gave me just Venale and the black guy, no decent weapons, and expected me to knock off two 10,000 HP monsters.

In other news, FF Versus XIII looks bloody amazing. It uses one of my favorite battle systems from a Square game ever.

[dgnslyr]

You guys you guys

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1755/finalfantasytacticsadva.png

I have serious problems you guys. :smallbiggrin:

Huh? I don't see anything wrong. You did name teh clan Beoulve, yes?

Also, if you're not too far into the game, fire a bunch of people so you can grind the Help Wanted missions until you get Negotiate 30, which nets you the super-special awesome Steal Ability knife, so you can steal Steal Weapon, so you can break the game (more than normal, anyways) by getting late-game weapons and abilities extra-early.

Also, GO GO ASSASSIN STORM. HAHA, EVERYTHING DIES.
Doublecast Madeen summoner with Mistle Robe is also hilarious, and Hunters are a pretty good physical class for Humans, for long-range insta-gib sniping.

[Fayd]

I'm actually a fan of the hunter/paladin. Holy Blade at bow range? Thank you!

Speaking of Tactics, has anyone heard anything more about the iPod version, such as a specific release date or anything? I know it is "supposed" to be sometime towards the end of this month or early next, but it was also "supposed" to be a lot of other times too.


If we're on the subject of FFXII, might I remind you that Vaan wasn't supposed to be the main character.

Basch and Ashe were supposed to be the main characters. It's from a gameplay perspective. When you see Vaan leading the party, you assume he is the main character. You were supposed to (http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20060902/ff10.htm) be able (http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20060902/ff11.htm) to choose who led the group originally.

And then they ditched it, and awkwardly tried to shoehorn Vaan as a main character.

Actually, you could change who was leading in you party. You just had to ... gosh... I can't remember all of a sudden. I think it was use the d-pad as if in battle to select someone, but... dunno. Doesn't work in places where the party isn't walking around together, obviously.

Also, I proffer that XII doesn't have a main character, but is more of an ensemble thing. After all, one could almost see Balthier as a 'main protagonist' for a good portion of the story too.

[Zevox]

Basch and Ashe were supposed to be the main characters.
Basch? You sure? Seems to me that Balthier was more important than him. Really, he didn't do all that much more than Vaan and Panello when you think about it.


It's from a gameplay perspective. When you see Vaan leading the party, you assume he is the main character. You were supposed to (http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20060902/ff10.htm) be able (http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20060902/ff11.htm) to choose who led the group originally.
Um, you still can do that. I spent the vast majority of the game with a party of Ashe, Balthier, and Basch, with Ashe as my controlled character.

Zevox

[RPGuru1331]

Or possibly, I don't get your point.
Thinking it over, I'm okay with that, since you weren't doing what I was worried about in the first place and everything after that was just trying to explain what I'm watching out for. don't worry about it, I guess.


Cloud is one of the oldest FF protagonists, he is also 22 years old. Ashely is also married if I recall correctly.
No, he THOUGHT he was married.


Basch? You sure? Seems to me that Balthier was more important than him. Really, he didn't do all that much more than Vaan and Panello when you think about it.
While I'm inclined to agree with you, this is backed up by developer statements you can check out on the wikia. Despite all appearances, Basch was intended to be the MC.

[Tirian]

While I'm inclined to agree with you, this is backed up by developer statements you can check out on the wikia. Despite all appearances, Basch was intended to be the MC.

I think the game was pretty generous at having a whole bunch of stories told well. I think you could make a case that the story revolved heavily around Larsa. It's just that the only people who very very much definitely yes were not main characters were Vaan and Penelo.

[GloatingSwine]

I think the game was pretty generous at having a whole bunch of stories told well. I think you could make a case that the story revolved heavily around Larsa. It's just that the only people who very very much definitely yes were not main characters were Vaan and Penelo.

That was very much the intent. The point of Vaan and Penelo as viewpoint characters is that they're ordinary people that are swept up in vast changes way above their heads, and they never become anything else.

It's an interesting choice for a PoV character in an RPG, and for what it's worth I think FFXII did really well with it. Ivalice as a setting probably helped, it's a place that's used to that sort of high political scheming.

[Triaxx]

You know, I actually liked FF8, aside from certain aspects. Rinoa for one. I guess at the end of the day, she was part of the story, but she'd have been just as effective if she were dead.

FF9 was great. Graphics don't mean a thing to me, and the story was amazing.

Thinking about it after a long time since playing it, Exdeath suddenly makes sense, since it was the thingy that was eventually going to destroy Gaia, Which is why you had to fight it at the end.

[Terry576]

Huh? I don't see anything wrong. You did name teh clan Beoulve, yes?

Also, if you're not too far into the game, fire a bunch of people so you can grind the Help Wanted missions until you get Negotiate 30, which nets you the super-special awesome Steal Ability knife, so you can steal Steal Weapon, so you can break the game (more than normal, anyways) by getting late-game weapons and abilities extra-early.

Also, GO GO ASSASSIN STORM. HAHA, EVERYTHING DIES.
Doublecast Madeen summoner with Mistle Robe is also hilarious, and Hunters are a pretty good physical class for Humans, for long-range insta-gib sniping.

Nope. Phoenix.

Abused to 30 Negotiate. Ramza's got like 6 Thief/4 Blue Mage/10 Hunter. And a ton of abilities. :smallbiggrin: My actual clan is:

Ramza
Montblanc
Tia (13 assassin/1 Fencer/6 Sniper)
Eldena (Red Mage/Summoner)
LINI!!!! (Mog Knight/Juggler/Gunner)
Caines (Jumplar)
Dave (Time Mage/Sage/Illusionist)
Loldispatchnoob

They pretty much murder. Black Robe+Lotus Mace+Prominence=Over 100 damage on every enemy character. :smalltongue:

[T.G. Oskar]

Honestly, western fondness for ruggedness is far more puzzling than a Japanese and Korean fondness for softer looking men. Throughout most of history and across most cultures, men have put as much care into their appearance as women with results that would often seem highly girly to modern, western perspectives. Just look at eighteenth century paintings of men.

In general it seems that the modern, western ideal of masculinity stems from a mix of 19th century ideals of masculine rationality and inspiration from choice bits of Greek writing. This in turns conceptualizes concern for appearance and any hint of softness of appearance as inherently feminine. Given the inherent misogyny of both cultures, that naturally puts a concern for appearance as anti-masculine and threatening to the male self who largely governed the society of the 19th century. Like so many other things from the 19th century, this appears to still be quite influential in the culture of Europe and those nations culturally descended from Europe. This makes it like conceptions of the mental fragility of children in the face of learning about sex or the existence of different social identities based on sexual attraction. There's no reason why the Japanese would have adopted it wholesale, lacking this tradition for fetishizing ruggedness as the epitome of masculinity.

I'd actually point that the idea of ruggedness concerning "masculinity" actually ascribes to an idea of classification. The West is rife with this line of thought, where things are defined by their characteristics. Ruggedness isn't perceived in that way as the epitome of masculinity rather than as a way to see the "common" man, the individual who had no resources to fix his appearance. 18th century paintings? Notice that's the aristocracy you speak about, which definitely had the resources and the refined taste; the common man could have said concerns, but it wasn't allowed such grace. Basically, looking rugged is more of an expression of being "common" rather than being manly; that association comes much later, as the bourgeoisie and the Industrial Revolution began to blur those divides, having aristocracy lose its status as leaders to an ever-growing parliament.

Whether that serves to explain that point of view (in fact, Greek culture was, to a great extent, somewhat worried about their appearance; even Lacedemonians had a distinctive form of aesthetic regarding their bodies which involve some of the things that could currently be considered "unmanly") or not, the divide remains present when you realize what they're meant to do. The perception of "what is a soldier" comes to mind; while 16th-17th century aristocrats held a higher standard of appearance and usually a superior skill with the blade, what we have here is the "common" man rising up to be a hero, so you might expect someone a bit more "common" looking. At least, the West expects that; yet, on Western RPGs, the trend is the "make your own character" because of the tradition of tabletop RPGs allowing you to express your idea of what should be a hero. The default usually lends to rugged men whom are perceived as veterans in their task, but they could be anything.

The concern is less with bishounen (or rather, biseinen) and more with the perception of main characters in RPGs, with Eastern RPGs going for extravagant-looking characters while Western RPG characters instead go for "make your own hero". Their pretty appearance is only a descriptor of the general trend regarding these characters, which could only be described as non-Japanese in appearance (though Tidus seems a bit of a ganguro)...


Ashely is also married if I recall correctly.


No, he THOUGHT he was married.

Actually, if my memory is correct, he was led to believe he was married. Later you figure out that the memory in which his family is slain is really him slaying that people, and that guilt was used against him to restrain his powers (the Chain and Defense tactics) from the time when he was an assassin.

"Manipulated" into believing he had a family is actually better. Sydney calls him on that one.


That was very much the intent. The point of Vaan and Penelo as viewpoint characters is that they're ordinary people that are swept up in vast changes way above their heads, and they never become anything else.

I take your Vaan and Penelo and raise a Cooke and Mack (from Lost Odyssey). Perhaps it's because I haven't really played XII (so what I gather is what I see of Vaan from Tactics A2), but he doesn't seem like an ordinary people. He looks quite a lot like a shounen protagonist, which is then swept to a story of political intrigue from which he doesn't seem to belong. The only tie to the story is that he dreams of becoming a Sky Pirate and Balthier just happens to be one. The story seems to fully flesh the remaining characters (except Fran, which is pretty much eye candy, and even she has an interesting backstory regarding her status as an exile of her own civilization, as if she had "fallen from grace"), making Vaan's story somewhat dependent from the rest. Perhaps this isn't the intention, but he stands out when he shouldn't because he's some sort of a missing link to the cohesion of the group: Ashe is a princess, Balthier and Basch are outlaws in their own way, but Vaan seems to have just stumbled in because of his theft and then... Well, he could be the voice of the "common man", but the fact that he stands out from the common people by having dreams and aspirations, not to mention wearing a vest and shirtless, seems to deride that thought. Penelo, on the other hand, does seem like the common person drawn to a larger story, but her story seems to be less fleshed out, standing more as Vaan's love interest so that Ashe could stand on her own as a widower.

Regarding Advance: try Bishop/Templar with Soul Sphere and Healing Staff. I had lots of fun with them. Also, Gunner/Mog Knight, because they get Ultima Shot up to 8 squares away and also Concentration as a countermeasure to the Mog Rush loss of accuracy. My Marche was built as a Paladin/Fighter (odd combo since each class cancels each other's benefit somewhat), though a Paladin/White Mage isn't out of the question.

[Terry576]

I prefer Hunter/Paladin Marche. He gets something like 6-7 panel Holy Blade, Ultima Shot, and a bunch of loverly buffs.

And even as Paladin/Hunter Marche, Marche gets the kickin' rad Ultima Shot with weapons like Maxed Sequence, Nagnarok, and Excalibur2. So it's still a win-win.

Also: I can make Montblanc useful.

1.) Hack your FFTA to make Montblanc a Nu Mou.
2.) ???
3.) PROFIT!

I still kill him on the jagd mission. Mostly because it's hilarious how Marche's all like "Montblanc lets go back to Baguba!"
"...Montblanc?
Montblanc!"

And then Nono doesn't act sad that his brother died getting back his stupid airship.

[Brother Oni]

Basically, looking rugged is more of an expression of being "common" rather than being manly; that association comes much later, as the bourgeoisie and the Industrial Revolution began to blur those divides, having aristocracy lose its status as leaders to an ever-growing parliament.


You also end up getting into the issues of cleanliness and what it means to Japanese culture.

Ronin and other vagrants are usually depicted as the traditional western ideal of rugged manliness, but to the Japanese, it's also a sign of how far they've fallen.

The other influences would be the predominance of kawaisa and the backlash against the armed forces, a traditional bastion of strong maleness.



The concern is less with bishounen (or rather, biseinen) and more with the perception of main characters in RPGs, with Eastern RPGs going for extravagant-looking characters while Western RPG characters instead go for "make your own hero". Their pretty appearance is only a descriptor of the general trend regarding these characters, which could only be described as non-Japanese in appearance (though Tidus seems a bit of a ganguro)...


Depends on the depiction. In FFX, I'd agree that the in-game models are just pretty, but if you look closely during the cutscenes, they're distinctly Japanese, or at least very oriental.
The three characters who can swim (Wakka, Rikku and Tidus) are all very tanned, but only the latter two could be described as ganguro.

Yuna was intentionally designed to be a shrine maiden, which meant traditional Japanese standards of beauty, (pale skin, quiet demeanor, etc), while Auron fulfils the ronin stereotype to a tee.


While most western RPGs have a 'make your own hero', it's only a cosmetic change - your looks don't affect how people interact with your character.
I suppose then you run into issues of the style differences between western and Japanese rpgs - JRPGS tend to be more of an interactive book, where you follow a character through their story. WRPGs tend to be more freeform - there's a general plot but how you achieve the goals is up to you.

Of course you can always make your WRPG hero pretty as well - a friend of mine spent well over an hour making her Commander Sheppard before even starting Mass Effect. :smallbiggrin:

[SITB]

I dunno, I find that most wRPG are linear as well. It's just the difference between normal books(jRPG) and CYOA(wRPG).

[Terraoblivion]

It isn't solely a divide between common people and aristocracy. If you look at pictures of the upper class in the 19th century the men are of course washed and wearing clean clothes, but said clothes also eschew visible signs of decoration and large, wild caveman beards were quite popular. Darwin and Marx are probably the archetypal examples of this kind of beard, but far from the only ones and both represented the better part of the middle class.

However, the rugged ideal seems to generally be more of a 20th century thing, at least in Europe. In addition to 19th century gender roles defining concern for appearance as something weak and feminine, the frontier myth found in the US helped a whole lot too. American influence of Europe spread this ideal of ruggedness above and beyond what could be found in common, urban citizens. However, this is not to say that Europe didn't have its own ideals of ruggedness, Germany was quite enamored with Spartan ideals of how to raise boys for example. Complete with the ridiculous myths about it that Athenians made. And let's not forget the intentional amounts of brutality, privation and focus on brutal, physical sports in British boarding schools of the century.

As for the Greek focus, remember how I only said some parts of it. Xenophon lecturing his wife on why any kind of bodily decoration is a violation of nature was one of those bits. Athenian writing on the Spartan way was another. Finally, there was a strong tradition in Athens as well about rugged asceticism, such as can be found in Aeschylus' tragedy Persae. The main theme of this tragedy is how the rugged, unforgiving terrain of Greece has made the Athenians rugged and manly, without softness or care for luxury, while the rich lands of Asia has made the Persians soft and feminine and so it was only natural that the Greek would win.

While I know that Greece hardly left an indelible trace throughout European history as some people claim, I think that it is still relevant for this due to the importance of classicism in the 19th century. Appeals to ancient Greece and a desire to emulate that time period was rife throughout the century whether in architecture, philosophical debate or otherwise. It extended to cultural fields as well, such as can be found in the constant comparisons Germans made between their country and Sparta and the frequent appeals to the heritage of Athens made by the French.

So, no, it's not just about common vs. noble, it also has deep seated roots in western conceptions of masculinity itself, though likely more so in the US than in Europe. And remember, when you can make your own character, the model still tends towards rather buff and powerfully build for men, which does tie into differing conceptions of masculinity as well.

[Brother Oni]

VIII: Haven't played it myself, but sat next to players for about 80% of the story. So I can't really comment on the ridiculous grinding for magic you do... other than that it's ridiculous. I remember watching an amusing review about that aspect. The story was fine, in my eyes, minus the whole 'same orphanage' aspect and the stupid romance shtick. Much love for Quistis and Laguna, heaps and heaps of hate for Rinoa and some for Squall.

The 'same orphanage' is actually quite an important plot point:

It emphasises that the Guardian Forces they use cause them to forget their memories.
Only that cowboy-hat-wearing chokes-under-pressure nimrod (Edit: Irvine) remembers that they were all together in the same orphanage together, and that's because he joined Garden and the SeeD program at a later age.

The orphanage is a significant in the formation of Squall's personality - most of his abandonment issues stem from there (even if he doesn't properly remember it), which makes him put up the stoic front so that nobody can get close enough to hurt him again, hence why he collapses at the end when he thinks he's been abandoned again after opening up to Rinoa.

As for the Squall-Rinoa romance, taken as written without context, I agree that it's not very well written. However...
Taken as the fulmination of Laguna and Julia's (Rinoa's mother) romance, it becomes very heartwarming, especially if you remember the lyrics to 'Eyes on Me'.


I dunno, I find that most wRPG are linear as well. It's just the difference between normal books(jRPG) and CYOA(wRPG).

I like that comparison - it's very accurate.

[Gnoman]

Also, for those who think the "GFs cause memory loss" came out of nowhere, you can learn about it, (along with the radio interference) less than 5 minutes into the game.

[Seerow]

The 'same orphanage' is actually quite an important plot point:

It emphasises that the Guardian Forces they use cause them to forget their memories.
Only that cowboy-hat-wearing chokes-under-pressure nimrod (Edit: Irvine) remembers that they were all together in the same orphanage together, and that's because he joined Garden and the SeeD program at a later age.

And how is that an important plot point? I'll note that Quistis even objects saying that only GF critics claim that is true, so it's left uncertain as to whether the GFs even did it... and even if they did where is it an important plot point that GFs erase memories EXCEPT for that one memory that makes no sense in the first place?


The orphanage is a significant in the formation of Squall's personality - most of his abandonment issues stem from there (even if he doesn't properly remember it), which makes him put up the stoic front so that nobody can get close enough to hurt him again, hence why he collapses at the end when he thinks he's been abandoned again after opening up to Rinoa.

Why hello there mr. frued.


As for the Squall-Rinoa romance, taken as written without context, I agree that it's not very well written. However...
Taken as the fulmination of Laguna and Julia's (Rinoa's mother) romance, it becomes very heartwarming, especially if you remember the lyrics to 'Eyes on Me'.


So the romance is good because the parents had a crappy romance?

[Gnoman]

And how is that an important plot point? I'll note that Quistis even objects saying that only GF critics claim that is true, so it's left uncertain as to whether the GFs even did it... and even if they did where is it an important plot point that GFs erase memories EXCEPT for that one memory that makes no sense in the first place?


For one thing, it's a major component of every non-Rinoa's character. Zell's bravado, Selphie's immaturity, Siefer's general jerkiness, all stem from the upbringing they've forgotten. Not only is most of the cast psychologically distorted in some way, they con't remember why. In fact, a lot of things make a lot more sense on the second or third playthrough about why characters act the way they do.



Why hello there mr. frued.

Not only is it made very clear in the game that Squall has abandonment issues, that he couldn't deal with them because he couldn't remember the source of those issues, and that many of the other characters have similar problems, it's on record that this is exactly what was intended.
[/QUOTE]

[Brother Oni]

So the romance is good because the parents had a crappy romance?

Depends on what you mean by the parents having a crappy romance.

If you meant that it was also poorly written, then I disagree.

If you meant that their romance didn't go well, then I agree.

In the second scenario, their relationship was so utterly screwed up by events beyond their control and their children get to make things right again. If you still think that's crappy writing, then that's your right. I'm a bit of a sucker for 'promises eventually being kept' type stories, so I like it.



Not only is it made very clear in the game that Squall has abandonment issues, that he couldn't deal with them because he couldn't remember the source of those issues, and that many of the other characters have similar problems, it's on record that this is exactly what was intended.


I remember reading somewhere that Squall doesn't actually act like an adult, he acts what a child thinks an adult should be like.

[Gnoman]

Exactly that. Ellone's "abandonment" instilled in him the desire to be very tough and grown up so she wouldn't worry about him. Many children with much older siblings do the same thing when those older siblings go off to college or when a parent dies. Most people grow out of it. Squall forgot he was doing it.

[RPGuru1331]

Also, for those who think the "GFs cause memory loss" came out of nowhere, you can learn about it, (along with the radio interference) less than 5 minutes into the game.
Providing a phlebotinium excuse for amnesia doesn't change that amnesia on the lead is itself an overused device that one should be careful with. multiplying it by what, 5? Isn't going to help matters. It can still be done, but the one time I saw it done well it wasn't so broad. It was one solitary event.

If you actually wanted to foreshadow this well, I would start with... let's say Timber, or shortly thereafter. Have the SeeDs squabble for a few minutes over some sort of minutiae of their exams.

Personally, I don't really hate 8, I just don't really like it. A number of these defenses seem silly, but ultimately it doesn't bother me that other folks did like it, or anything.

[Mewtarthio]

This is the place for your rabid fanboyism, your unadulterated hatred, your utter bewilderment, or what have you, concerning Square Enix's flagship series.

Okay, time for an honest question from someone who's never played an FF game. I figure this is the best place for this, so here goes:

What's Final Fantasy?

No, I'm well aware that it's a popular JRPG franchise published by Square Enix, but Square Enix publishes a lot of JRPG franchises. What is it that makes a Final Fantasy game a Final Fantasy game and not just a stand-alone JRPG?

[tyckspoon]

No, I'm well aware that it's a popular JRPG franchise published by Square Enix, but Square Enix publishes a lot of JRPG franchises. What is it that makes a Final Fantasy game a Final Fantasy game and not just a stand-alone JRPG?

A: Being produced by Square.
B: Featuring some mix of...
Chocobos
Moogles
Airships
The 'Active Time Battle' variant of a turn-based system, consisting of visibly filling action bars that let you know when your characters will act (X had the most refined variant of this, IMO, with the turn bar that not only showed your character turn order but the enemies as well, which allowed for much more tactical play.)
Crystals
A "job" based class system, with or without ability to change a character's job.
Sci-fi/technomancy elements imposed onto an ostensibly fantasy setting

I suppose there might be a few other factors that reliably show up in Final Fantasies, but those are what stand out to me, since you can track a lot of them all the way back to the very first NES outing before the series really gained its own identity (Crystal-based plot, Job classes, airship, sci-fi junk in your fantasy trunk.)

Edit: Cynically speaking, I suppose it'd be the presence of the mascot Chocobos and Moogles, since those are the things Square will probably sue you for using. You could build a FF-clone out of the mechanical and plot/style elements pretty easily otherwise.

[Gralamin]

The 'Active Time Battle' variant of a turn-based system, consisting of visibly filling action bars that let you know when your characters will act (X had the most refined variant of this, IMO, with the turn bar that not only showed your character turn order but the enemies as well, which allowed for much more tactical play.)

I guess Final Fantasy Tactics isn't Final fantasy then? :smalltongue:

[Ogremindes]

I guess Final Fantasy Tactics isn't Final fantasy then? :smalltongue:

Or about half of the main series (ATB was used in what, 4-9?).

[tyckspoon]

I guess Final Fantasy Tactics isn't Final fantasy then? :smalltongue:

Nah, FFT uses the Active Time as well, it's just the variant that was developed into X later on- each character has a Speed rating, their action value increments by Speed each tick, when that number hits 100 the character acts. It's ATB in practice. Besides, I said some mix of those elements- a lot of the newer generation of FF don't do much or anything with the Crystals, but when they do use them they're still a very strong "This is Final Fantasy" marker (specifically, the appearance of a crystal/set of crystals as a keystone element of the world/universe.)

[Kris Strife]

Anyone have any artifact naming advice for Dissidia Duodecim?

[Zevox]

The 'Active Time Battle' variant of a turn-based system, consisting of visibly filling action bars that let you know when your characters will act (X had the most refined variant of this, IMO, with the turn bar that not only showed your character turn order but the enemies as well, which allowed for much more tactical play.)
Bwah?

FF 10 did not have an ATB system at all. It's the only FF from 4 onward to use a true, regular turn-based system. All it did differently was split the turns up by character rather than having everyone act in each turn - which, unlike the ATB, is something that RPGs from other series have done as well. That is in fact one of the reasons I like it more than most Final Fantasy games, since I dislike the ATB.

Zevox

[T.G. Oskar]

A: Being produced by Square.
B: Featuring some mix of...
Chocobos
Moogles
Airships
The 'Active Time Battle' variant of a turn-based system, consisting of visibly filling action bars that let you know when your characters will act (X had the most refined variant of this, IMO, with the turn bar that not only showed your character turn order but the enemies as well, which allowed for much more tactical play.)
Crystals
A "job" based class system, with or without ability to change a character's job.
Sci-fi/technomancy elements imposed onto an ostensibly fantasy setting

I suppose there might be a few other factors that reliably show up in Final Fantasies, but those are what stand out to me, since you can track a lot of them all the way back to the very first NES outing before the series really gained its own identity (Crystal-based plot, Job classes, airship, sci-fi junk in your fantasy trunk.)

Edit: Cynically speaking, I suppose it'd be the presence of the mascot Chocobos and Moogles, since those are the things Square will probably sue you for using. You could build a FF-clone out of the mechanical and plot/style elements pretty easily otherwise.

Dude, you forgot Cid. There's no game that I know of that lacks one. Heck, even the Final Fantasy: Spirits Within movie had a frickin' Cid (except this time, it was a Dr. Sid) Bonus points if it's a Tactics game, where Cid is always controllable (and generally one of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful: A2 had the Revgaji Cid and Al-Cid Margrace; Advance had Judgemaster Cid, and Tactics...has that game's instance of God). In fact, that name has such presence that the first game was retconned to have a Cid (Cid of the Lufaine, whom eventually becomes the narrator of Dissidia).

Also, the game has somewhat distanced itself from class systems. Heck, since...Final Fantasy II they have considered distinct methods of character customization without using job systems; it's that the games that DO have it usually tend to influence the others. FF7 had Materia, FF8 had the Guardian Forces, FFX had the Sphere Grid, FFXII had the License Board and FFXIII had the Crystarium, which can be used to create characters that resemble earlier game jobs OR something entirely different.

In fact, the most significant point about a Final Fantasy game is that every numbered game is an entirely different story. Until X-2, no two Final Fantasies were equal; X-2 thus was considered a true game sequel (FFV anime notwithstanding) and broke that conception. You can expect FFXV to be different from the earlier games in one way or another.

[Brother Oni]

If you actually wanted to foreshadow this well, I would start with... let's say Timber, or shortly thereafter. Have the SeeDs squabble for a few minutes over some sort of minutiae of their exams.


Except that the GFs eat their earliest memories first. Having them swiss cheese their memories at random according to the demands of plot is just bad writing if not done well.

Rinoa notices this as well - when the SeeDs really get into a battle, they kick it up another level, displaying a level of integration and teamwork that she simply can't keep up with.

Given how recently they were thrown together, it's unlikely that they've had the time to achieve this normally, barring another plot device like the GFs providing a telepathic link. When you consider it's because they've known each other nearly all their lives, it makes much more sense.

While I agree that it is an overused device that needs to be handled carefully, it doesn't intrude that much into the plot of VIII. It's mentioned specifically once, where Squall declares it doesn't matter whether the GFs do or don't because they need the GFs regardless, but most of the time it's in the background.

[tyckspoon]

Bwah?

FF 10 did not have an ATB system at all. It's the only FF from 4 onward to use a true, regular turn-based system. All it did differently was split the turns up by character rather than having everyone act in each turn - which, unlike the ATB, is something that RPGs from other series have done as well. That is in fact one of the reasons I like it more than most Final Fantasy games, since I dislike the ATB.

Zevox

Eh. I suppose you can see it several ways, but with so many abilities in the game that can modify your turns (Quick Hit basically works out as "your ATB for the next turn starts at +50" and all the high-delay abilities would be "your ATB starts at -X instead of 0") and the fact that having a high Agility/Speed trait still makes that character get more turns more quickly (in most turn-based games, that just means you usually go first in the turn order, not that you take more actions) it looks to me like ATB is still going on under the interface; they just found a more graceful way to present it.

[Zevox]

Eh. I suppose you can see it several ways, but with so many abilities in the game that can modify your turns (Quick Hit basically works out as "your ATB for the next turn starts at +50" and all the high-delay abilities would be "your ATB starts at -X instead of 0") and the fact that having a high Agility/Speed trait still makes that character get more turns more quickly (in most turn-based games, that just means you usually go first in the turn order, not that you take more actions) it looks to me like ATB is still going on under the interface; they just found a more graceful way to present it.
Um, that use of the speed stat is just a modification for a turn-based system in which the turns are split up by character instead of having everyone act in each turn. It's only a slight modification of the standard turn-based dynamics, still using it to determine turn order, just altered since the turns themselves function differently.

The hallmark of the ATB systems, forcing a real-time timer onto an otherwise turn-based interface, is absent. You can take as long as you want selecting attacks with no drawback. Your enemy will not be attacking you while you're picking out your moves, as nothing is occurring in real time. Without that, it is not an ATB system. Heck, that's what the name ATB is referring to: "active time battle." Emphasis on "active time."

Zevox

[tonberrian]

I hate the ATB system.

[Tono]

AS a note, several of the games(May be all of them, I can't really remember.) featuring a ATB system could be changed to CTB in the options menu. The only difference is whether or not you get that, 'pause' in order to decide. It really is the same system.

[Zevox]

AS a note, several of the games(May be all of them, I can't really remember.) featuring a ATB system could be changed to CTB in the options menu. The only difference is whether or not you get that, 'pause' in order to decide. It really is the same system.
Right, but all that does is prevent the computer from selecting a new attack while you're selecting one for yourself. The real-time progression of the game is unchecked. If the computer had already selected an attack and was just waiting for some of your actions to play out to make the attack, it will do so as usual for an ATB system. Even if not, the little meters that represent the time each character is forced to wait still fill up as normal - so if the computer's fills up, they'll just do their next attack immediately after you do yours.

In FF 10, however, this isn't the case. Nothing occurs in real-time. It's just a turn-based system. The computer acts when it's its turn, your characters act when it's their turn, and the amount of actual time spent on anything affects nothing.

Zevox

[T.G. Oskar]

Regardless of whether it isn't ATB or not (and the way Square patented the Active Time Battle system was essentially allowing the characters' turns to emerge in "real time"), the battle system from FFX was quite interesting.

For starters, the idea that you can predict the enemy's movement and use tactics to delay them. This already appeared on earlier RPGs; essentially, it's one of the hallmarks of the combat system available at the first two Grandia games. The main difference is that the turn-delaying abilities are limited to one or two attacks (mostly Tidus, whom combines Delay attacks with speed to gain control of the turns) in comparison with the ability of all characters to delay attacks by making Critical hits.

The other is allowing the entire party to participate, since all characters (except Kimahri) had their schtick in combat: Tidus was the fastest and had better accuracy with speedy characters; Wakka is best against flying, etc. However, the ability to change your party members on the fly seems much better than replacing your party only on specific locations (and fits well with the idea of a group on a pilgrimage) and allows some degree of tactics well until the moment where the party grows far too strong that the differences no longer matter. This was also done before, specifically with Breath of Fire IV where you could shift your party members and they also collaborated from the back row (either through an extra attack or partaking from a buff-all spell or taking advantage of the combo system to refresh them without taking damage, then shifting and doing the same with the people on the front row).

So, ATB or not, FFX had an interesting combat system, giving a twist on traditional turn-based systems (something then copied by LotR: the Third Age, and experimented with in Lost Odyssey and hilariously subverted with any Zeboyd game).

[Triaxx]

Technically Irvine was already part of SeeD, but didn't start working with Memory erasing Guardian Forces until he moved to Balamb, because Galbadia was technology focused, and didn't use them. I don't remember what Selphie's Excuse was.

My objection wasn't how badly written the romance was. It's exactly what I expect out of two teenagers in fiction of any kind. It's that there was SO much focus on the romance, it seems to cause the rest of the story to become washed out. Which is a pity, because it was a good story.

IX blended them together better.

[T.G. Oskar]

I don't remember what Selphie's Excuse was.

Irvine confronts her when he claims that only Balamb makes strong use of Guardian Forces, then Selphie claims that she also lost her memories because she was forced to use a GF once, during training. The details elude me, but she made temporary use of a GF before ending on Squall's team, which she used from a fallen comrade after an expedition gone wrong (might be real off on that one, but that's the gist of it). That prompts the idea that Guardian Forces eat the earliest (or rather, the most important) memories first, because otherwise Selphie should have known everyone else.

What really throws the idea of "loads of amnesiacs" off is that Irvine holds off that information until MUCH later. Everyone meets him, and for some reason he doesn't seem to recall his old mates at the orphanage. He only hesitates when he's forced to shoot Edea, because of his memories; however, oddly enough, the story could have gone well with Irvine's cool lost at the most important moment, and his need to atone for losing his composure makes him follow the group.

It feels like something that got tacked on, but that the developers thought a nice twist. It's not a bad twist, but it could have been polished a bit more before deploying the story. The "Squall is dead" theory is much more entertaining actually.

[Zevox]

So, ATB or not, FFX had an interesting combat system, giving a twist on traditional turn-based systems (something then copied by LotR: the Third Age, and experimented with in Lost Odyssey and hilariously subverted with any Zeboyd game).
Other games that used a similar system would include the Xenosaga trilogy and the recent Radiant Historia - the latter of which takes the whole turn-controlling thing to another level entirely.

Zevox

[Tono]

Irvine confronts her when he claims that only Balamb makes strong use of Guardian Forces, then Selphie claims that she also lost her memories because she was forced to use a GF once, during training. The details elude me, but she made temporary use of a GF before ending on Squall's team, which she used from a fallen comrade after an expedition gone wrong (might be real off on that one, but that's the gist of it). That prompts the idea that Guardian Forces eat the earliest (or rather, the most important) memories first, because otherwise Selphie should have known everyone else.

What really throws the idea of "loads of amnesiacs" off is that Irvine holds off that information until MUCH later. Everyone meets him, and for some reason he doesn't seem to recall his old mates at the orphanage. He only hesitates when he's forced to shoot Edea, because of his memories; however, oddly enough, the story could have gone well with Irvine's cool lost at the most important moment, and his need to atone for losing his composure makes him follow the group.

It feels like something that got tacked on, but that the developers thought a nice twist. It's not a bad twist, but it could have been polished a bit more before deploying the story. The "Squall is dead" theory is much more entertaining actually.
IIRC, Selphie in the everyone remembering everything scene claims she killed a monster when she was younger and pulled a GF out of him. I've always imagined her poking around monster brains looking for the GF, but w/e. The same scene I believe Irvine states that he did remember who everyone was but was majorly bummed that nobody else remembered him or each other so he stayed quiet, which seems to be IC for him. I think I remember him being the one to start everyone down memory lane anyway. I've played that game way to much.

[Gnoman]

That, and they were off to kill, basically, their mother. The others not having to deal with that was a Good Thing.

[RPGuru1331]

Except that the GFs eat their earliest memories first. Having them swiss cheese their memories at random according to the demands of plot is just bad writing if not done well.
"Bad unless done well" is an improvement on 8 in this regard, which is just "Bad".

GFs eat the earliest memories so they could do the plot this way. I sincerely doubt they wrote the rules, then wrote the plot;t hat's just not really how Square seems to operate.


While I agree that it is an overused device that needs to be handled carefully, it doesn't intrude that much into the plot of VIII. It's mentioned specifically once, where Squall declares it doesn't matter whether the GFs do or don't because they need the GFs regardless, but most of the time it's in the background.
It's not really important in the plot, no. It was poorly done, but it's lack of importance aside from the wtf timecube makes that, well, less important.

It's kinda like the FFIX final boss in that regard. And X's. Shoot, Final Fantasy went at least 3 games in a row having a complete nonsense final boss who's presence is poorly connected to the rest of the plot. Well, maybe that's a bit unfair to X's. Or maybe I'm just so accustomed to "God is Evil" that I can accept Yu Yevon more readily than "Random Sorceress from nowhere" and "What the hell did that thing come from again?" FFX-2 has a meh plot for it's fantastic writing, but at least they managed to not repeat the "WTF did that come from" phenomena.

Re: ATB, CTB

CTB is a fancy term close to ATB that square invented for an extremely common setup in video game RPGs. That said, tyckspoon (Dig the avatar, btw) did also say "A combination of", so he or she clearly did not intend to say only a game that has it is Final Fantasy.

[Mewtarthio]

A: Being produced by Square.
B: Featuring some mix of...
Chocobos
Moogles
Airships
The 'Active Time Battle' variant of a turn-based system, consisting of visibly filling action bars that let you know when your characters will act (X had the most refined variant of this, IMO, with the turn bar that not only showed your character turn order but the enemies as well, which allowed for much more tactical play.)
Crystals
A "job" based class system, with or without ability to change a character's job.
Sci-fi/technomancy elements imposed onto an ostensibly fantasy setting

I suppose there might be a few other factors that reliably show up in Final Fantasies, but those are what stand out to me, since you can track a lot of them all the way back to the very first NES outing before the series really gained its own identity (Crystal-based plot, Job classes, airship, sci-fi junk in your fantasy trunk.)

Edit: Cynically speaking, I suppose it'd be the presence of the mascot Chocobos and Moogles, since those are the things Square will probably sue you for using. You could build a FF-clone out of the mechanical and plot/style elements pretty easily otherwise.

See, those are all things that a Final Fantasy game has. What I'm mainly asking is what's the theme or element that ties the series together. Say, if someone were to identify themselves as a "Final Fantasy fan," what does that mean? Just that they're really fond of Moogles and Chocobos?

If it helps, I mainly ask because I've never played an FF game and want to know if it's a series that's worth looking into. So, basically, I want you to sell the series to me.

[tyckspoon]

See, those are all things that a Final Fantasy game has. What I'm mainly asking is what's the theme or element that ties the series together. Say, if someone were to identify themselves as a "Final Fantasy fan," what does that mean? Just that they're really fond of Moogles and Chocobos?


Ah. There.. really isn't one thing. The biggest thing that makes Final Fantasy stand out, as compared to almost any other series of games sharing the same name, is how *different* they all are from each other. You play a Megaman game, you pretty much know what you're going to deal with. Devil May Cry, Halo, Zelda, God of War.. all franchises built on basically repeating and improving a known style and approach to the games. Final Fantasy doesn't have that; it is quite possible, and even very common, to be a fan of particular entries in the series while hating others.. so the phrase "Final Fantasy fan" itself does basically tell you that that particular person likes Moogles, Chocobos, and Cid, because those are the only things you can safely assume are in whatever FFs they like.

[Ozymandias]

Devil May Cry, Halo, Zelda, God of War.. all franchises built on basically repeating and improving a known style and approach to the games.

Strongly disagree on Zelda; the 'main' franchise entries (Zelda, Zelda 2, LttP, OoT, WW, and TP) are significantly and often radically different from each other on even basic levels. Certainly much more variability than in Final Fantasy.

Final Fantasy does reinvent itself a lot, though; compare it to the other powerhouse RPG series in Japan, Dragon Quest, which has had basically the same mechanics forever, which, in my opinion, is much to its discredit.

[tyckspoon]

Strongly disagree on Zelda; the 'main' franchise entries (Zelda, Zelda 2, LttP, OoT, WW, and TP) are significantly and often radically different from each other on even basic levels. Certainly much more variability than in Final Fantasy.


Zelda 2 is an aberration, I'll admit. But other than that, Zelda comes in basically 2 varieties- Zelda, Link to the Past, and all the Game Boy and even DS versions work in the same template. And then Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess use the 3d version of that template. The structure and basic mechanics of the games remain pretty much the same, and usually feature basically the same story (enter dungeons, get items, use item to defeat dungeon boss to collect plot widget, gather enough plot widgets to open final dungeon, save Zelda.) Heck, most of the puzzles are even reused, to the point where somebody with prior Zelda experience (and good pattern recognition) can come into a new Zelda game completely blind and ID the kind of puzzle in a room on sight. That doesn't suggest variability and radical differences to me.

[Sipex]

FF games are unique in that respect, while you can always expect them to be RPGs you can't really expect much else. They share similar spells, signature characters (moogles/chocobos/cid) and some monsters but really they're very different.

Many of the games share similar staff (writers/musicians/programmers) for differnt time periods though so there's always the 'This game was made by my favourite Square director, so it's worth a try.'

You'll notice that the FF series has a lot of disparity between games, different fans have wildly differing opinions about most of the games.

[Brother Oni]

You'll notice that the FF series has a lot of disparity between games, different fans have wildly differing opinions about most of the games.

This thread is proof enough of that. Plenty of polarised opinions on the FF8 story, although general consensus on the poor mechanics.

I dislike the story of 9 for a variety of reasons, although it did have some neat world features like the Mist. The mechanics for it were great though.

[0Megabyte]

Selling Final Fantasy. Okay then:

It is more like an anthology than anything else. There isxno interconnecting story, so you can jump in on any of the main games without needing to play any others to get it point. This is a good thing, because other than shout outs, there is no worry about continuity.

Gameplay itself is something that, as a rule, Square has always experimented with. In this way, you never have the problem of a game like Dragon Quest, which keeps the mechanics static.

Sometimes these experiments fail. See Final Fantasy 2 with the worst character progression system of almost any rpg. Also see FF8'd tedious "drawing" system.

Other times it creates great things. FF7 uses swappable spell tokens called materia, which are what give you various abilities as they level up and are swapped around. You have FF13's paradigm system, which gets rid of the tedium of worrying about hitting x to attack, so you can instead worry about higher level strategy such as whether characters should combo, buff, heal, tank, etc. Especially in the late game, this system proves it's worth.

Each game generally has a relatively high quality story for it's time, with a focus with pushing graphical boundaries in most cases. Compare FF1 to Dragon Quest. FF4 to anything that came before. Ff6 to Phantasy Star 4. Basically, the series is obsessed with creating a cinematic mentality, and had been ever since the NES. (see the true opening of FF1, after the prologue section.) This tendency runs deep.

So, if you want an rpg that is cinematic, needs no previous story knowledge to play, and has unique, highly identifiable gameplay systems every game, you can't go wrong with a Final Fantasy.

[RPGuru1331]

Sometimes these experiments fail. See Final Fantasy 2 with the worst character progression system of almost any rpg. Also see FF8'd tedious "drawing" system.
Actually, Final Fantasy 2 is a successful experiment. From FF2, they drew out the SaGa games, which continuously refined on that idea of how to advance until the current form, and even from SaGa 1 was tolerably well done. FF2 is a *terrible* game, but they learned what they needed from it to make fantastic ones; erego, successful experiment.


So, if you want an rpg that is cinematic, needs no previous story knowledge to play, and has unique, highly identifiable gameplay systems every game, you can't go wrong with a Final Fantasy.
They're at least decent, but given expectations from fans, it really is more than possible to feel completely disappointed, if not outright dislike a game, just for the record.

I'm not much for sales sorry, just accuracy.

[Sipex]

Yeah, just be careful not to allow yourself to overhype an FF game.

Although I'll second Megabyte's post, that's the most accurate depiction of the FF series I can think of.

[Terry576]

Well, after finding out that Final Fantasy Tactics signs were, in fact, used for something, I started a new file.

So far, Ramza, Eon, and Eldena are ending the early game. Eldena's ridiculously overpowered Black Magic (Arcane Strength FTW), and the fact that Eon grinded to 600 JP to learn Holy at level 4, means that the early game is going to be the easiest part of the entire game.

Also, Ramza is a Heavy Armor Monk. It's very fair. :smalltongue:

Then I have the two other characters, who are placeholders for Agrias and Beowulf/Cloud (Depending on if I feel like Hacking Cloud to the appropriate level). Their names are Fist Rockgroin and Ser McMuffin. McMuffin's giving me precious Chemist spillover, while Fist Rockgroin grinds as an Archer with Brawler so I don't ever have to be an archer ever. :smallbiggrin:

FFT is far too much fun. I don't even know how I played FFTA so damn much. I had like four 100 Hour + files on that game. My FFT file has 7 hours, and I'm still in chapter 1.

[dgnslyr]

Somebody's been spending time following Orange Fluffy Sheep...
I should know, I lurk on Something Awful all the time to follow LPs.

Anyways, kung-fu Ninja is one of my favorite combos for brutalizing people, so maybe work towards that. Specifically, it's Ninja with Martial Arts and PA-boosting gear, not Monk with Two Swords. I prefer Ninja because they get hats, which means more HP and PA. I think Ramza reached a point on my last playthrough where even Martial Arts was unnecessary, and his two fists of death murdered everything alive. Unfortunately, this gets obsolete when you have a teleporting Samurai Wizards instagibbing people with Draw Out and Mathematicians nuking entire teams from across the map, so I made Ramza a Lancer for the long-range attacking.

Beowulf is awesomely useful. He may not be able to punch demons back to hell, but he's an expert at making lifelike statues. Train him, it's worth it.

I like using Agrias, especially once she gets Lightning Stab, so have fun grinding the 700 JP. I used her over Cid, because using Cid is just cheating, and Agrias already has the sword skills worth using. She works well with Geomancer, because Geomancers wear clothes and use swords, so you get crazy boosted PA with Twist Headbands and Power Sleeves.

I have to agree, FFT is much more fun than FFTA. I played FFTA first, and only got Tactics much later, and drat is it better.

[Terry576]

Oh yes, I did read OFS's LP.

I prefer his FFTA LP, mostly because it's just so hilarious.

"Forsooth! I am but the Doubleking!":smalltongue:

[Zevox]

So, the NA Wii Virtual Console apparently just got Final Fantasy 6 (http://www.siliconera.com/2011/06/30/final-fantasy-vi-finally-hits-the-u-s-virtual-console/) released on it at last. In a bizarre move though, they listed it as Final Fantasy 3, even though Square has long since abandoned using the alternate numbering system for NA FF releases. I really don't get that - I can only see that confusing people, especially given the relatively recent DS remake of the actual Final Fantasy 3.

In any event though, it gives me a nice convenient way to get ahold of that game and finally give it a try. Once I finish up my current backlog of games I own but have yet to play, anyway.

Zevox

[Burner28]

as for story, lightning seems to be out of the picture(presumed dead). Serah is now the protagonist. and now she is team with the young man Noel Kreiss and a moogle. seems Snow is out of the picture. good thing too. i think it was kinda creepy when serah that look like 16 and snow in his late 20s were about to get married. this noel guy also gives off some tidus vibe to me for some reason.

I am looking forward to it


Personally, I actually found FF 13 to be a boring disappointment

[GloatingSwine]

So, the NA Wii Virtual Console apparently just got Final Fantasy 6 (http://www.siliconera.com/2011/06/30/final-fantasy-vi-finally-hits-the-u-s-virtual-console/) released on it at last. In a bizarre move though, they listed it as Final Fantasy 3, even though Square has long since abandoned using the alternate numbering system for NA FF releases. I really don't get that - I can only see that confusing people, especially given the relatively recent DS remake of the actual Final Fantasy 3.

Remember that Wii Virtual Console is just the original running on emulation. I guess they didn't want to do work patching in a new translation.

[Terraoblivion]

Burner, I have to ask you something. How does one person's short briefing on the content of one game make an unsupported assertment of the quality of another game an appropriate response? It just seems random and arbitrary despite the obvious connections between a sequel and the original.

[Nerd-o-rama]

My two cents on the FFVIII amnesia reveal:

It was an interesting idea that was executed hamfistedly and poorly. Just like everything else in FFVIII.

[Zevox]

Remember that Wii Virtual Console is just the original running on emulation. I guess they didn't want to do work patching in a new translation.
Then why not use the PS1 or GBA remake instead of the SNES original? Those used the proper title even for the NA version. Heck, Wikipedia says the GBA version even had an improved translation.

Zevox

[Nerd-o-rama]

Then why not use the PS1 or GBA remake instead of the SNES original? Those used the proper title even for the NA version. Heck, Wikipedia says the GBA version even had an improved translation.

Zevox

But it was distinctly lacking in the Ted Woolsey touch, particular around SON OF A SUBMARINER! and the like.

Still, you'd think they'd have gone off the GBA ROM just for the sake of the bonus features.

[Gnoman]

For one thing, there were quality sacrifices in the GBA verision, and the PSX one ran very poorly.

[Burner28]

Burner, I have to ask you something. How does one person's short briefing on the content of one game make an unsupported assertment of the quality of another game an appropriate response? It just seems random and arbitrary despite the obvious connections between a sequel and the original.

Hmm... Sorry for not being clear about what I meant. I was really wanting to actually talk about FF 13 really, not to talk about the FF13-2. I should not have quoted that as it gave off the impression that I believe that just because the first game of a series sucks it means that the second one will.

[GloatingSwine]

Then why not use the PS1 or GBA remake instead of the SNES original? Those used the proper title even for the NA version. Heck, Wikipedia says the GBA version even had an improved translation.

Zevox

Virtual Console doesn't emulate the GBA.

Also, this way you'll buy it again on the Virtual Console on 3DS, which does do GBA games, so you can have a not-awful translation.

[Terry576]

Personally, I actually found FF 13 to be a boring disappointment

FF13 was pretty bad. I got through about half of it before realizing that I could feel the linearity closing in on me.

Also, the characters were insane..


Lightning: Smug all the time, no personality.
Snow: Combination of Sora, Prozac, and the Idiot Ball.
Hope: Too obsessed with killing Snow, so much so that he seems like a total tool. Also, he was a wuss half the time.
That insane happy girl: I don't need to say anything.
The black guy: Why is he there? He has no purpose.



I'm still going to wait for FF: Versus 13 instead. :smallcool: Noctis, a KH-esque battle system, and a main character whose from the Future!Japanese Mafia Royalty? Oh yes.

[T.G. Oskar]

Also, the characters were insane..


Lightning: Smug all the time, no personality.
Snow: Combination of Sora, Prozac, and the Idiot Ball.
Hope: Too obsessed with killing Snow, so much so that he seems like a total tool. Also, he was a wuss half the time.
That insane happy girl: I don't need to say anything.
The black guy: Why is he there? He has no purpose.

Would it be fair to compare Tetsuya Nomura with Rob Liefeld? I dunno, but they seem to have some similarities between them.

[RPGuru1331]

I'd correct your massive distortions of FF13 characters, but I'm lazy and if my read on the situation is correct, it will be corrected regardless of whether I choose to say anything specific or not.

Tetsuya Nomura is similar to Rob Liefeld in that they both have distinctive styles. The difference is that while Liefeld can not get anything remotely correct about human anatomy, and wouldn't know style if it danced naked on a table with a comically oversized bust and an extremely tiny waist in front of him, Nomura manages alright, producing decent-to-excellent character designs which manage at least some measure of style; this despite his tragic addiction to zippers and belts. In fact, Nomura managed character design on a game that is literally about fashion and style, and part of the positive critical reception was for managing to pull that off.

Additionally, I'm not familiar with Liefeld having contributed anything positive beyond Deadpool's name, though I'm not a huge comics nut so maybe I just missed out on stuff.

[Zevox]

The black guy: Why is he there? He has no purpose.
Sazh's existence is more than justified by being one of the only really likable characters in the entire game (outside of a single awful, over-the-top melodramatic scene - and hey, at least he only gets one of those, unlike just about everyone else in the group). As the realist and cynic of the group he was just about the only character in that game I could relate to at all. Besides, anyone and anything that gave the game something to show me other than Snow or Hope qualifies as a plus in my book to at least some degree.

Zevox

[T.G. Oskar]

Tetsuya Nomura is similar to Rob Liefeld in that they both have distinctive styles. The difference is that while Liefeld can not get anything remotely correct about human anatomy, and wouldn't know style if it danced naked on a table with a comically oversized bust and an extremely tiny waist in front of him, Nomura manages alright, producing decent-to-excellent character designs which manage at least some measure of style; this despite his tragic addiction to zippers and belts. In fact, Nomura managed character design on a game that is literally about fashion and style, and part of the positive critical reception was for managing to pull that off.

Seems right on.

The similarity is a bit more than skin deep. Most character designs currently owe a lot to Final Fantasy, particularly the JRPG group (compare, say, the original designs of Lufia II which have rather normal fantasy designs to those from Curse of the Sinistrals which are entirely different). So, in a way, Nomura is one of the many designers whom subtly (or blatantly) altered the design of JRPG characters to their current standards, much like Liefeld pretty much pioneered the gritty antihero of the Dark/Iron Age of comics.

Also, the designs polarize fandom, although in that regard Nomura strikes a balance. Liefeld, on the other hand, is almost universally reviled in that aspect.


Additionally, I'm not familiar with Liefeld having contributed anything positive beyond Deadpool's name, though I'm not a huge comics nut so maybe I just missed out on stuff.

Image Comics. Though how positive that can be is debatable.

Also, IIRC, he was creator (or co-creator) of Cable, as well as most of his entourage (Domino, for example, or the Six-Pack). Cable is (or was) quite important to the X-Men if only because he started, alongside Bishop, all of the time travel shenanigans in the series.

Also, Cable is the son of Scott Summers (Cyclops) and Jean Grey (Phoenix), and reputed to be one of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful, mutants (and psychics, in that regard) in existence. His technorganic virus is more of a limiter than anything, ranging from limiting to pretty much burning his powers. He's one of the keys to the current X-Men series, or was (kinda flimsy on that, but he was key on Messiah Complex and subsequent series with the mutant Messiah, which is IIRC yet another Summers-Grey child). I could say he could fight Sephy on equal terms and win. See what I did there? ;)

[dgnslyr]

Sazh is the only party member whose name isn't a common noun. This gives alone gives him a degree of respectability.

[Terraoblivion]

I would like to point out that all of those people were meant to act quite insane, Terry. Those behaviors were coping mechanisms, they all pretty much admit as much. Four of them had been cursed to become the bogeymen they had grown up terrified of, knowing that their only four options were: Suicide, let someone kill them, do something horrible that they aren't sure what is or become a shambling monstrosity forever in despair over their failure. On top of that Lightning saw her sister die, Snow his fiance and Hope his mother. They honestly deserve some slack for not being examples of cheerful, happy and well-adjusted people.

That being said, I can't really recognize your descriptions of Lightning and Snow, or are you trying to tell me that you can't see either of Lightning's bitterness and motherly instincts topwards Hope. For that matter, her snark isn't exactly of the smug kind, more the aggressive, defensive kind. You didn't notice that Snow is kind of, well, loud, noisy and energetic either? He doesn't just phlegmatically assert that everything will work out alright, he tends to state it in quite a loud fashion, not to mention that the hints that he's repeating those statements because he desperately wants to believe them himself. He even admits as much later. I won't go into how Vanille is the least happy of the group or how Sazh very definitely has a reason to be there, beyond desperately trying to survive the purge, because both of those are spoilers. I will say that if you didn't learn what their deals were or see Hope grow up some, you weren't even near the middle of the game.

[RPGuru1331]

Also, the designs polarize fandom, although in that regard Nomura strikes a balance. Liefeld, on the other hand, is almost universally reviled in that aspect.
Polarize? I'm sure Belt Boy has a hatedom, but wouldn't a polarization require there to be opposite poles? Who is pleased with Liefeld?



Also, IIRC, he was creator (or co-creator) of Cable, as well as most of his entourage (Domino, for example, or the Six-Pack). Cable is (or was) quite important to the X-Men if only because he started, alongside Bishop, all of the time travel shenanigans in the series.
Ah, I guess there had to be two good things. Image Comics I knew about.

[Burner28]

FF13 was pretty bad. I got through about half of it before realizing that I could feel the linearity closing in on me.





Woah! Isn't that kinda extreme?:smalltongue:

[Seerow]

Woah! Is'nt that kinda extreme?:smalltongue:

Well really, when you have a game that is literally more linear than the original Super Mario Bros...

[Fan]

Well really, when you have a game that is literally more linear than the original Super Mario Bros...

Actually, once you reach



The second world after you get the airship, which then immediately crashes...



The world is pretty open, and you don't really "have" to do anything.

Though honestly what makes me angriest about 13 is that it had the potential to be another 7, but with it's own original ideals, structure, and feel.

7 being my definition of "High quality, likely to be overrated, and quite pretty for it's time".

Now if only Square would stop shying away from the idea of truly open world's like they used to have, and would just DO IT. I wouldn't care if the open world looked like an Atlas with little to no features provided they simply let us land where we chose (creating a generic forest landscape with a few treasure chests, same for desert, etc. With paths that eventually take you to a secret area, or the closest set of settlements.)

Because honestly, I've seen how rendering is done, and an extra 10 or so hours rendering would produce a low spec map (like that of Fable...), and would make the game at least FEEL infinitely more open. And hell you could even just treat your character / method of transport / etc as a mouse cursor. It wouldn't even be an exceptionally difficult feat!

So very easy just to do that, and your game makes SO MUCH MORE MONEY.

[RPGuru1331]

I really don't get this fetishization of an open world. And I *REALLY* don't get the implication that it's what Square 'used to have'. No, they had semi-straight lines and gated content. It's generally difficult to sequence break without abuse of glitches and the like, and generally worlds have been gated; You might technically have the ability to backtrack, but you don't possess the ability to move where you lack whatever vehicle you need (Such as islands that can only be landed on with the Black Chocobo in V, or your inability to travel into the Subsurface World without the right plot coupons in IV. FFVI's World of Ruin and FFX-2's Spira are probably the only ones they've ever actually produced.

Really, I don't see the problem in linearity. And it really feels like RPGs get this onus thrust on them far more than any other genre of game, which makes it double weird.

Additionally, I find that in general, Square's best work is in the closed sections. The World of Balance is more tense and more exciting than the WoR. Midgard is quite possibly the best 7 hours of FFVII. FFVIII gets continually weirder once the Garden activates, and is much better before you finish the assassination attempt than after. IX maintains steam til after the world is opened up. X and X-2 serve as counterexamples in my mind, so there's that, to be fair, but...

[Fan]

I really don't get this fetishization of an open world. And I *REALLY* don't get the implication that it's what Square 'used to have'. No, they had semi-straight lines and gated content. It's generally difficult to sequence break without abuse of glitches and the like, and generally worlds have been gated; You might technically have the ability to backtrack, but you don't possess the ability to move where you lack whatever vehicle you need (Such as islands that can only be landed on with the Black Chocobo in V, or your inability to travel into the Subsurface World without the right plot coupons in IV. FFVI's World of Ruin and FFX-2's Spira are probably the only ones they've ever actually produced.

Really, I don't see the problem in linearity. And it really feels like RPGs get this onus thrust on them far more than any other genre of game, which makes it double weird.

Additionally, I find that in general, Square's best work is in the closed sections. The World of Balance is more tense and more exciting than the WoR. Midgard is quite possibly the best 7 hours of FFVII. FFVIII gets continually weirder once the Garden activates, and is much better before you finish the assassination attempt than after. IX maintains steam til after the world is opened up. X and X-2 serve as counterexamples in my mind, so there's that, to be fair, but...

My idea of an open world is being able to go, and do what you want, when you want.

In FF 7 you could literally flip the clock just playing Golden Saucer Games, and there were loads of secret areas, even in FF 8 once you got the Airship the plot was no longer a required element, and you were completely able to just go fly off to a random continent to hunt a FLYING SAUCER, or go to some god forsaken corner of the map to fight Omega Weapon.

There was no true requirement, or restriction placed on you once you reached a certain point, and that was what I liked on it. Sure it was still a sand box type deal with secular area's that were essentially smaller sandbox's in between the larger sandboxs, but that gave the illusion of freedom, and at least being able to fool myself into believing that much is better than OH HEY, GO THIS WAY BECAUSE THERE IS NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, AND NO FUN DISTRACTIONS.

[dgnslyr]

Well, other games usually at least pretend to have an open world for you to explore some of the time. I guess FFXIII's linearity is not that far off from other FFs, and the open world section is very open-worldy. A bit too open, for some people, even.

[RPGuru1331]

My idea of an open world is being able to go, and do what you want, when you want.
Yeah, I got that. I understand what the term means. I don't understand the desire for one. I've played games that were broad and open, sure, but I just don't see the draw.

even in FF 8 once you got the Airship the plot was no longer a required element, and you were completely able to just go fly off to a random continent to hunt a FLYING SAUCER, or go to some god forsaken corner of the map to fight Omega Weapon.
Ah, I see. You're aware that Final Fantasy isn't Elder Scrolls, or a bioware game, yes? If you want a non-plot-centric game by the same company, might I recommend SaGa series? With one exception they're quite open, and are set up to give you a lot to explore in each replay by only allowing so many events to occur in a given game (Barring extreme manipulation of game mechanics).


There was no true requirement, or restriction placed on you once you reached a certain point, and that was what I liked on it. Sure it was still a sand box type deal with secular area's that were essentially smaller sandbox's in between the larger sandboxs, but that gave the illusion of freedom, and at least being able to fool myself into believing that much is better than OH HEY, GO THIS WAY BECAUSE THERE IS NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, AND NO FUN DISTRACTIONS.
So to make sure I understand, you're annoyed that a series famed for its lack of sandboxes, that really doesn't specialize in sandboxes, and that in a very long history produced perhaps 3 examples of games that weren't semi-straight lines (And that's being generous; further, one of them sucked completely), isn't actually giving you a sandbox.

Congratulations, you've successfully confused me. Here, have a Shopoke.
http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/3c342dd3f2f1c0410e499543cd3b5cf1.jpg

[Brother Oni]

My idea of an open world is being able to go, and do what you want, when you want.


FF11? You can go where you want, do what you want, when you want, just expect to die horribly when you run into monsters that aren't suitable for your level.

[Fan]

I played FF XI, and yeah, I experienced that, but those were rare spawn event monsters with special names.

FF XI was a good game, I'm still subscribed, and plan to do so for XIV, when it stops being free to play.

I guess what I said was being weird, but.. when I say a sandbox I mean something like in Prototype, and inFAMOUS.

A vast open area, with numerous smaller sub areas, that you are allowed to explore, and are rewarded for exploring at your leisure without any sort of constraint confining you to the specific small radius of the plots town.

[RPGuru1331]

I played FF XI, and yeah, I experienced that, but those were rare spawn event monsters with special names.
No it isn't. If you're level 10*, and you decide Castle Oztroja sounds like a really cool place and you want to explore it, you're going to get your head handed to you by an army of Yagudo. A lot of things aggro in FFXI. And Castle Oztroja is actually open to you without doing plot; if you want to go to Sky, or Tavnazia, you better have competent friends, excellent and well chosen gear, and a good handle on your job. And then after *THAT* you better be able to handle what you find there. Yes, it's set up to be open, but that doesn't mean the game's content isn't at all gated; far from it.


I guess what I said was being weird, but.. when I say a sandbox I mean something like in Prototype, and inFAMOUS.
Haven't played those, but if you want anything that could reasonably be called a sandbox, find a game that's actually intended for it. Imagine if I said "Prototype shouldn't be a sandbox; it's a cool idea and all, but the plot and aesthetics should be packaged with complete linearity, because I like it that way." I'm having a little trouble wording this properly, but...

Don't demand everything be designed to your tastes. Make criticisms of how games follow along with their intentions, and feel free not to like a game because its intentions don't line up with yours. Demanding that everything that exists be designed to specifically suit your tastes, however, demonstrates entitlement.

*Yes, I'm aware that there is Sneak and Invis consumables. No, it doesn't magically make the world an open place. Especially not since you're still going to end up home pointing if things get really bad and you end up losing Sneak/Invis at the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Kurai]

I think the problem with FFXIII's linear play versus the open play is that is just thrown out there without anything great you can do. In my opinion, the linear play in the beginning was pretty much a given, because it's the only thing that fit with the story. I can live with that, I mean, they were running for their lives. Because it would've been pretty awkward for a bunch of Cocoon state enemies to just run around in the city and do missions/grocery buying/normal stuff. On the other hand, there were great chances for the player to explore the great options and landscapes they had been given (Nautilus, for example, could have been used much more), but couldn't, and this is where FFXIII lost some great chances.

The open part of FFXIII on the other hand (I'm just gonna spoiler it, 'cause I don't even know what I'm supposed to spoiler and what not),

was a great, fat wasted opportunity. The missions were a bad substitution for great possibilities on the otherwise great and impressive area that was Gran Pulse. I mean, doing a hundred missions that were, in essence, the same damn thing in every fight just with different monsters was really lame and I don't think I'll ever play them all. Because there's not even a gain. You don't get great cutscenes or worthwhile information (just a few snippets, if I remember correctly), you just fight, fight, fight. Thank god it's optional or otherwise I might not have gotten to the end of FFXIII yet.
I, personally, don't really need a world map. The teleporters in FFXIII, which you could free during the missions (the only thing that made sense with these things) were quite enough for me. But hey, everyone has a different taste and different priorities what they want and don't want in a games and that's totally fine.


On the topic of the characters, I want to support Terraoblivion, who actually summarized them pretty well. There is in no way Lightning comes across as smug for me, or Sazh as being useless. Even Vanille, who got on my nerves sometimes, has a pretty damn good reason to be how she is, because it's all one big coping mechanism. That's another thing I think they did pretty well with FFXIII, they show you the characters, sometimes pretty unlikeable, and then tell you more and more why they are actually acting this way or what drives them. Hope is the best example for a hurt teenager that needed to grow up I've seen in a while. Still, I admit they could have done more with the material they've been given in the game. Otherwise it really might have come out as one of the best FF's yet. Shame on you, Square, shame on you for wasting such a good opportunity.

All just personal opinion and how I saw the situation when playing, please don't feel attacked if anything sounded passive-aggressive or worse. Some might steem from the fact that I've been battling the whole time with my cat for my food and the keyboard. Grr.

[Moonshadow]

Hope is the best example for a hurt teenager that needed to grow up I've seen in a while.


You mean Hope is the best example of a whiny teen who needs a good punch in the mouth, right? :smallbiggrin:

[Sipex]

So, the NA Wii Virtual Console apparently just got Final Fantasy 6 (http://www.siliconera.com/2011/06/30/final-fantasy-vi-finally-hits-the-u-s-virtual-console/) released on it at last. In a bizarre move though, they listed it as Final Fantasy 3, even though Square has long since abandoned using the alternate numbering system for NA FF releases. I really don't get that - I can only see that confusing people, especially given the relatively recent DS remake of the actual Final Fantasy 3.

In any event though, it gives me a nice convenient way to get ahold of that game and finally give it a try. Once I finish up my current backlog of games I own but have yet to play, anyway.

Zevox

I am so happy. I finally get to play this.

[Zevox]

@ RPGuru1331 - While I personally didn't care one way or the other about FF13's linearity (heck, I tend to have more problems with the sandbox style myself), it really shouldn't be hard to see where those with that criticism are coming from. Even in FF10, the most linear prior FF game I know of, there were towns you stopped at, shops to visit, and plenty of side-quests and mini-games littered across the game - Blitzball, the lightning-dodging thing on the Thunder Plains, two optional Aeons to find, etc etc. And most of the rest of the series had an overworld map to explore on top of that, which only got more open for exploration as time went on and you acquired things like a ship to travel on water with or a flying vehicle.

FF13 is a big break from that, as 4/5 of the game goes by until you hit the one area that isn't basically a tunnel, and even then there isn't a heck of a lot of exploration to do there, and the side-quests it has (at least those that I played) mostly just amounted to "go kill this" missions, not exactly a big change when the entire game so far has been walking from point A to point B and killing monsters that got in your way. There aren't many things that the FF series hadn't changed up until that point, but that ability to wander the world and find a few optional things to do that weren't just killing stuff was one of them, so it shouldn't be hard to see why even a fan of the series could be off-put by that.

Zevox

[Sipex]

Add to that, it didn't feel like there was much challenge in the areas. Most of the time things felt like "Walk forward, fight, walk forward, fight, take the obvious side path for a chest, walk back, fight."

Unlike previous FF games where there was out of battle challenges to break things up. Anything as minor as 'explore this section' and 'hit a switch' to more major things like 'play a minigame to open up the door' or 'solve a puzzle'.

I mean PUZZLES. There were none.

I did like the characters though.

[Terraoblivion]

How were those things major challenges? I mean they were there in older games in the series and with a few possible exceptions, they were just meaningless busywork that made the time where you were running around and killing stuff longer. Either that or even more meaningless busywork where you do a completely meaningless task over and over, like the lightning dodging game in FFX.

[Sipex]

Major challenges was the wrong term, as the hardest parts in any FF game are the battles.

That said, I always felt like they broke up the action and made it feel like I was doing something more than running to the next fight. Some of the stuff was tedious though, I'm not saying just because it's not a fight means it's great.

For example, finding a keycard to continue on in Shinra tower made that section of FF7 feel much more real to me, even with the graphics. It would've been nice to see some of that in 13. Maybe 'disable the generator' or 'unlock the train car door'.

Admittedly there were a couple sections, like when you take over the mech but I felt it could've been more involved.

[Drascin]

How were those things major challenges? I mean they were there in older games in the series and with a few possible exceptions, they were just meaningless busywork that made the time where you were running around and killing stuff longer.

If I may interject in the conversation for a moment, puzzles aren't really busywork. Puzzles are quite fun. I always was a bit sad that FF was light on puzzles compared to other RPGs... and instead of adding more as time went by, they decided to go for the other extreme and just progressively eliminate them in the newer ones - walking and fighting and that's that. And since most RPGs tend towards aping the two big franchises (DQ and FF), well, that means that puzzles in RPGs are getting to an all-time low, which is really sad.

And now I need to go replay Lufia II yet again :smallsigh:.

[Sipex]

If you're into puzzle heavy RPGs I would recommend the Wild Arms series.

[Terraoblivion]

I have no problem with puzzles in general. But when they consist of trial and error, running to the obvious switch and getting into ten battles on the way there and ten on the way back or even more tedious grinding, they are just meaningless busywork. That's basically what the puzzles in earlier Final Fantasy games were like. Also, the keycard hunt in the Shinra tower seemed incredibly contrived and silly to me, also not really very hard or requiring much thought. Just as an example.

[RPGuru1331]

@ RPGuru1331 - While I personally didn't care one way or the other about FF13's linearity (heck, I tend to have more problems with the sandbox style myself), it really shouldn't be hard to see where those with that criticism are coming from. Even in FF10, the most linear prior FF game I know of, there were towns you stopped at, shops to visit, and plenty of side-quests and mini-games littered across the game - Blitzball, the lightning-dodging thing on the Thunder Plains, two optional Aeons to find, etc etc. And most of the rest of the series had an overworld map to explore on top of that, which only got more open for exploration as time went on and you acquired things like a ship to travel on water with or a flying vehicle.

FF13 is a big break from that, as 4/5 of the game goes by until you hit the one area that isn't basically a tunnel, and even then there isn't a heck of a lot of exploration to do there, and the side-quests it has (at least those that I played) mostly just amounted to "go kill this" missions, not exactly a big change when the entire game so far has been walking from point A to point B and killing monsters that got in your way. There aren't many things that the FF series hadn't changed up until that point, but that ability to wander the world and find a few optional things to do that weren't just killing stuff was one of them, so it shouldn't be hard to see why even a fan of the series could be off-put by that.

Zevox
The lightning dodging minigame. Really. Blitzball was pretty decent, sure, but the lightning dodging minigame is the rough level of interest and goodness of FFX's other minigames. You really should have just referenced other games' minigames (I'd recommend Chocobo Hot and Cold, personally), because there was really no need for the minigames to be awful as X's, as a whole.

Here's the reason I don't really care about the fact that it's a straight line; those searches don't inherently add anything but playtime. Most optional things come down to a dungeon and a boss fight. Now, I happen to like dungeons and boss fights, so this isn't necessarily a minus to me, but it's also not necessarily a plus either, and there's something to be said for condensing and delivering the story, especially when it's good.

I'll certainly grant that it shifted from a semi-straight line to a completely straight line. There was more to do, and there was exploration to be had, etc. But what was not traded was an 'open world' for one, and that is what I said.

[Zevox]

The lightning dodging minigame. Really. Blitzball was pretty decent, sure, but the lightning dodging minigame is the rough level of interest and goodness of FFX's other minigames. You really should have just referenced other games' minigames (I'd recommend Chocobo Hot and Cold, personally), because there was really no need for the minigames to be awful as X's, as a whole.
Just referenced the ones that came to mind. I didn't say they were good (heck, the reason I remember the lightning dodging minigame is precisely because it was terrible). I personally tend not to bother with minigames at all unless the rewards are particularly good, and even for that I could never bring myself to finish something like the lightning dodging minigame.

And again, I'm not someone who cared one way or the other about FF13's linearity myself, I was just pointing out that it was a big shift from previous entries in the series, so it should be easy to see how it would bother people who do like having all those minigames, extra areas to explore, and so forth.

Zevox

[Drasius]

Was 1st introduced to VII many moons ago now, but still quite a while after it was released. It still maintains a spot in my top 3 games of all time, and holds the cherished spot of most epic final battle ever for me.

Didn't play VIII or IX. Thought X was great and loved Blitzball, hated X-2 not for the girlyness, but for totally changing the characters and intoducing new ones without reason. Don't play MMO's so didn't play XI, hated the boring generic stereotyped characters and total absence of meaningful plot in XII.

XIII was a horrible botched abortion that should never have seen the light of day, with the only silver lining being Lightning (or should I say female Cloud) and Chapter, what, 12? on Gran Pulse which finally wasn't a god-damn freaking hallway. Seriously, it's about 25 hours before you get to make any descision about where to go. Why bother making me run down the hallway? Just give me 500 boring push X to win fights in a row and then give me 20 minutes of exposition. It would have been vastly better than the 20-odd hour grind of nothing interesting happening in the same damn hallways.

Hope (who wasn't that bad of a character really) would have become my personal hero if he had of stabbed Snow, or at least made a heroic sacrifice and pulled that bugger off the cliff when he had the chance. I swear, Hope is a cross between Shinji from Neon Genesis and young Simon from Gurren Lagann while Snow is a try-hard Kamina without ANY of the extremely manly blazing man on fire KICK!!!! awesome (or any of the death, unfortunately).

The moment between Sahz and Vanille was awesome, but that was about it and Vanille and Fang both seemed even more out of place than they were meant to.

So we have 1 and a bit interesting characters and a plot with no direction, minimal backstory, very little sense and a slow plodding pace that jumps between characters constantly. Gee, what a winner that idea is.

Splitting up the party and making us use them seperately is fine if used sparingly, but not for as long as you did with nothing happening. A large part of the appeal is to find a combination that you like and making it work, not being forced into stuff you don't find fun repeatedly, and that's my main critisism of XIII, it wasn't fun for 90% of the game, and that's not something I want to play.

[RPGuru1331]

hated the boring generic stereotyped characters and total absence of meaningful plot in XII.
What. What do you play that the heroine seriously considering genocide becomes stereotypical. I really, really, REALLY want to know. Also Balthier. I could buy that for Basch, and the other 3 are kinda useless, but those 2? Further, it's got a male and female lead who don't, at any point in time, even *flirt*. That is beyond not-stereotypical. It seems to be where FF got its start on *finally* not gratuitously including romance. Wait, no, that was X*

As to meaningful plot... I can't blame you if you got lost hunting Marks and filling in your Clan Primer, but that doesn't mean the plot isn't there, or that it isn't meaningful.

XIII was a horrible botched abortion
However horrible it was, it was by no means an 'abortion'. Abomination? That I could buy. Abortion? Perhaps look that word up, and don't use it just to describe a game (Or anything else) you dislike, however much you do. It's offensive, and kind of demeaning.


while Snow is a try-hard Kamina without ANY of the extremely manly blazing man on fire KICK!!!! awesome (or any of the death, unfortunately).
That sounds absolutely nothing like Snow, and more like a heavily flawed interpretation that is left without support from the actual game.

But hey, haters gonna hate.


And again, I'm not someone who cared one way or the other about FF13's linearity myself, I was just pointing out that it was a big shift from previous entries in the series, so it should be easy to see how it would bother people who do like having all those minigames, extra areas to explore, and so forth.
Which is cool, but like I said, there was a specific claim, and it was wrong. I was also narrow in saying that it was wrong, and that I didn't say FFXIII wasn't a change. I said it wasn't a major change, so there's that, but I didn't deny that a shift took place at all. The guy sounded like he was referring to like, sandbox games, and he was, and that's just not really what Final Fantasy does; it also doesn't generally do them *well* when it tries.

*I love romance. A lot. Really. That's why I hate boring MMC/FMC romance plots. They add nothing, and aren't interesting. You can still do a romance between MMC and FMC, but it takes effort, like X, or like, you know, an actual romance. It's possible to do, and do well, in a game. But that isn't the norm, and if you're not going to at least try, don't do it at all.

[Sipex]

I dunno, I would say that the characters were the one thing I loved about FF13. They felt far more real (than previous FF games I mean) and each one had separate conflicts to deal with.

[Drasius]

What. What do you play that the heroine seriously considering genocide becomes stereotypical. I really, really, REALLY want to know. Also Balthier. I could buy that for Basch, and the other 3 are kinda useless, but those 2? Further, it's got a male and female lead who don't, at any point in time, even *flirt*. That is beyond not-stereotypical. It seems to be where FF got its start on *finally* not gratuitously including romance. Wait, no, that was X*

Ashe was a standard fantasy action princess with martial skills from nowhere who still relies on others to save her while not appreciating their help. Sky pirates are not new and interesting, the rogue with a heart of gold shtick got old a while ago. Fanservice McBunny-ears was about as subtle an inclusion as Seven-of-Nine. Basch was the nobel hero wrongly imprisioned who helps out anyway for love of his country.

Vaan and what's-her-face had no buisness actualy tagging along past the 1st couple of chapters. And not flirting between Balthier and Ashe? What overly long cutscene were you playing? There's no romance which is nice, but NOT including a romance plot is certainly not grounds to declare something revolutionary, interesting or even good on those grounds alone.


As to meaningful plot... I can't blame you if you got lost hunting Marks and filling in your Clan Primer, but that doesn't mean the plot isn't there, or that it isn't meaningful.

It was there in the same way a spiders web is there when you look at it side on, but by god it's dificult to notice. There was very rarely any reason for them to go where they were going or do what they were doing. The whole thing just seemed totally forgettable to me unlike the other FF's I'd played before-hand. I'll certainly grant you that I'm not a die-hard fan who's played every installment, but 12 was a huge letdown for me.


However horrible it was, it was by no means an 'abortion'. Abomination? That I could buy. Abortion? Perhaps look that word up, and don't use it just to describe a game (Or anything else) you dislike, however much you do. It's offensive, and kind of demeaning.

Hence the word botched infront of it. It should have been killed off before it got released, but it didn't, and felt like there was only the base framework for a game there waiting to be fleshed out into a proper AAA title. If you get your knickers in a twist over the use of that word, I can only assume you have made a choice involving that action in the past or are very new to the internet. Either way, I am sorry for your lost innocence.



That sounds absolutely nothing like Snow, and more like a heavily flawed interpretation that is left without support from the actual game.

But hey, haters gonna hate.

ORLY? "Heroes don't need plans!", "Heroes never die. C'mon, we got a world to save.", "Go in, guns blazin'." A slightly rough, undereducated, white late teen/early 20's male who is a replacement older brother/father figure to a bunch of early teen kids fighting a war which they are on the extreme underdog side of. Someone who charges in at the drop of a hat and gets rebuked for it by a female main character who has been fighting far longer in the same war than he has. Someone who's main attribute is all about heart and being the determinator and if you believe hard enough everything will work out just fine? Someone who has a love of showing of his chest at every opportunity? Someone who tries so very hard to embody Machiso?

Seriously, I'm surprised they didn't give him a pair of sunglasses and a cape.

The lack of awesome is a personal thing, I'll grant you that, but to me, Snow tried so very hard to be "cool", and I think we all know that when people try to be cool, they can never be cool. Snow is not cool, for massive ironic lulz.

[Terraoblivion]

Snow was meant to be a moron with an unrealistic outlook on life and their situation. It's what his entire character arc is about. Also, with one exception the other people in NORA are his age, so it's not like he's an older brother taking care of them. He's simply a gang leader of some of the kids from the orphanage, which is hardly the same thing. He isn't high energy all the time either and most of his most energetic outbursts are him being defensive about his beliefs and the way they prop up his remaining mental stability after losing his girlfriend and being condemned to being the antichrist of his homeland. Really, if you look at the slightest bit of depth in his character he's nothing like Kamina.

As for FF XII, Ashe had pretty good reasons to be skilled at fighting. She was an active resistance fighter for two years, learning some combat skill from that is pretty obvious, especially with Vossler there to train her. Her reasons for not trusting the thieves who robbed her palace, stealing the symbol of her position in the process, and the man who killed her father seem pretty solid too. And again, she's far more hateful and angry than most heroic protagonists regardless of media. She spends most of the game seeking to monopolize WMDs so she can take revenge on an entire nation.

Honestly, it seems to me that you only look at the most surface traits of a character when declaring them cliché. All characters are cliché if you look at them in that general a sense, it's inevitable that they wouldn't be given how much literature, cinema, etc. is out there.

[Sipex]

Welcome to media, everything is cliche now. No more good characters ever.

Ever.

[RPGuru1331]

Ashe was a standard fantasy action princess with martial skills from nowhere who still relies on others to save her while not appreciating their help.
Being a leader of a Resistance for two years is "From nowhere"? And uh, I'm trying to figure out how m- oh, yes Spoilers Tags.

She got over her problems with Basch, for one, because he was helping her. She didn't execute Vossler; we're talking about a woman who was looking for a setting equivalent to a nuke, it's not like execution is outside her list of possibilities. She stops doubting Balthier at every moment. What do you need for 'show appreciation'?. Do you require her to announce her feelings?

Sky pirates are not new and interesting, the rogue with a heart of gold shtick got old a while ago.
Okay, uh, did you miss Balthier's primary motivators entirely?
He has heart of gold elements, but compared to his desire to stop his insane father, which is primarily a personal feud, and wanting to see Ashe stay sane and not commit an atrocity? Those 'heart of gold' tendencies are nothing in comparison. If you wanted to complain about combining James Bond and Han Solo, that'd be one thing, but... not really what you're saying.

Also, I wasn't really referring to the fact that he was a sky pirate. But how do you justify occupation as part of the cliche, on its own? I mean, you're a fan of FFVII. Cloud's a sellsword. I mean, he's got his own stuff, like Balthier or Ashe, but you're the one raising occupation as if it defines characters by virtue of being mentioned.


It was there in the same way a spiders web is there when you look at it side on, but by god it's dificult to notice. There was very rarely any reason for them to go where they were going or do what they were doing
WHAT!? There's always a direct impetus for every action taken after Balthier steps in, and it is a relevant plot one. From the top:

Garamsythe: Stuff just went down, the imperial army is in full force, and the Dusk Shard disabled Fran and Balthier's speeder bike
Barheim Passage: Prison Escape. Simple stuff, that.
Lhusu: Rescue hostage. From a meta perspective this still has value in setting up Ondore's work in organizing the resistance, introducing the intra-Imperial scuffles, and giving Larsa a window into the plot at all.
Sandsea: Get to Raithwall; you could argue this was extraneous, and from a plot perspective it was, if not a setting perspective, since the Tomb really needs to not be anywhere that can easily reached.
Tomb of Raithwall: Obtain the Dawn Shard; this is critical. Ashe has no proof of her birthright as the Princess of Dalmasca, because Balthier stole it, and it was taken from him when he was captured. Archades can set up a puppet much easier if she has no proof of her birthright. Vossler's betrayal.
Garif Vilage: Learn how to use her nuke. Doesn't work.
Golmore/Henne Mines: Set up Nethicite better, meta. In-universe, save Fran's sister.
Stilshrine: Retrieve the Plot Sword, which can actually destroy Nethicite; also sets Ashe up as Raithwall's successor, in-setting and meta. That meta comes in handy later.
Archades: Reclaim Dawn Shard (Doesn't work), mess up Nethicite production. Balthier reveals. Humanize Archades a lot better.
Giruvegan: Occuria reveal, chasing Cid to reclaim Dawn Shard. The truth of the Dynast King is revealed, Ashe wavers.
Pharos at Ridorana: Ashe makes her decision to tell the Gods 'Screw You'; also, mass destruction isn't cool, even for Dalmasca. She specifically throws away her claim to successorhood of the Dynast King, as well as the Dawn and Dusk Shards, and the Sun Cryst (Which is where you get more Nethicite).
Bahamut: Kick Vayne's ass, save Dalmasca and the Resistance.
You can say it's boring, or terrible, of course, but the reasons to physically be present? There, well explained, and with the possible exception of the Henne Mines, valuable from a storytelling perspective. I strongly suspect you just got lost Mark Hunting if you completely forgot what you were doing there. That's understandable, it happened my first game.


If you get your knickers in a twist over the use of that word, I can only assume you have made a choice involving that action in the past or are very new to the internet.
Look, kid, maybe I'm not doing it for me, but because it's actually not a word that you should throw around horribly, because you don't know who's there. A lot of people on the internet manage that just fine. You seem to recognize that it was offensive, and are just hiding behind the fact that people on the internet say it anyway. They say a lot of things for pointless shock value. That's one of the ones that actually should stop.


ORLY? "Heroes don't need plans!", "Heroes never die. C'mon, we got a world to save.", "Go in, guns blazin'."
This has been explained to you once already;


ot to mention that the hints that he's repeating those statements because he desperately wants to believe them himself. He even admits as much later.
Terraoblivion has repeated herself, explaining in better depth now. To call him a tryhard Kamina completely misses that no FFXIII character is playing their obvious role straight. They're maintaining an affectation of it for reasons of their own, which any but the most cursory readings will reveal to you.

I know that modern voice acting is still not up to the same level of theater acting, but they've come a long way. You need to really pay attention to delivery, emphasis, and the like to catch some of the subtleties. The days of text are fading, quickly, and writers are clearly catching up. You're probably not going to see much "THAT MAKES ME FEEL ANGRY" anymore.


A slightly rough, undereducated, white late teen/early 20's male who is a replacement older brother/father figure
...Whether Snow is white or not falls under general possible arguments of anime character ethnicity (Because the Japanese really do have very light skin tones, for reals, so ambiguity is expected in a lot of places), but Kamina? The guy dressed like a shirtless samurai with a nodachi? He's not white. Maybe be a little less ethnocentric.

[Drasius]

Please excuse the length of the post, 99% of you will tl;dr anyway.


Snow was meant to be a moron with an unrealistic outlook on life and their situation. It's what his entire character arc is about. Also, with one exception the other people in NORA are his age, so it's not like he's an older brother taking care of them. He's simply a gang leader of some of the kids from the orphanage, which is hardly the same thing. He isn't high energy all the time either and most of his most energetic outbursts are him being defensive about his beliefs and the way they prop up his remaining mental stability after losing his girlfriend and being condemned to being the antichrist of his homeland. Really, if you look at the slightest bit of depth in his character he's nothing like Kamina.

I didn't see any character to Snow past your first 2 sentances, which I agree with.


As for FF XII, Ashe had pretty good reasons to be skilled at fighting. She was an active resistance fighter for two years, learning some combat skill from that is pretty obvious, especially with Vossler there to train her. Her reasons for not trusting the thieves who robbed her palace, stealing the symbol of her position in the process, and the man who killed her father seem pretty solid too. And again, she's far more hateful and angry than most heroic protagonists regardless of media. She spends most of the game seeking to monopolize WMDs so she can take revenge on an entire nation.

Fair enough on Ashe, I certainly don't recall her being in the resistance for 2 years, but then it has been a long time since I played it and I found it very dull at the time. I never argued that she should trust them, I argued that they shouldn't have stayed together and go where they did.

I did actually like that she had the all consuming need for vengeance thing going on, I thought that part was actually well carried out, especially given the hopeless situation she and her nation was in.


Honestly, it seems to me that you only look at the most surface traits of a character when declaring them cliché. All characters are cliché if you look at them in that general a sense, it's inevitable that they wouldn't be given how much literature, cinema, etc. is out there.

Possibly due to me not liking the game or story very much and therefore not looking very hard at something I didn't enjoy. If you found the characters deep and engaging then that's cool, they came across as fairly generic to me.


Being a leader of a Resistance for two years is "From nowhere"? And uh, I'm trying to figure out how m- oh, yes Spoilers Tags.

She got over her problems with Basch, for one, because he was helping her. She didn't execute Vossler; we're talking about a woman who was looking for a setting equivalent to a nuke, it's not like execution is outside her list of possibilities. She stops doubting Balthier at every moment. What do you need for 'show appreciation'?. Do you require her to announce her feelings?

Already addressed the resistance issue. I Don't remember every detail enough to argue with you, but I'm not sure not executing someone falls under show appreciation. She doubts Balthier at every opportunity well after she should given the amount of times he assist her.


Okay, uh, did you miss Balthier's primary motivators entirely?
He has heart of gold elements, but compared to his desire to stop his insane father, which is primarily a personal feud, and wanting to see Ashe stay sane and not commit an atrocity? Those 'heart of gold' tendencies are nothing in comparison. If you wanted to complain about combining James Bond and Han Solo, that'd be one thing, but... not really what you're saying.

Also, I wasn't really referring to the fact that he was a sky pirate. But how do you justify occupation as part of the cliche, on its own? I mean, you're a fan of FFVII. Cloud's a sellsword. I mean, he's got his own stuff, like Balthier or Ashe, but you're the one raising occupation as if it defines characters by virtue of being mentioned.

Balthier's motivators were his own self interest at all times, he had no clue his father would be part of this whole series of shenanigans as far as I can recall, and I doubt very much that he would care overly much one way or another about Ashe's state of mind or number of atrocities commited early on in the piece, giving him no real reason to hang around.

Him being far too much like Mr Solo is what I was getting at with the jerk with a heart of gold as he is pretty much the poster boy for it.

Perhaps I had just binged on too much Crimson Skies around the time, but it seemed overdone at the time and despite actively looking for examples, I can't find a reason for it. Consider that point retracted.


WHAT!? There's always a direct impetus for every action taken after Balthier steps in, and it is a relevant plot one. From the top:

Garamsythe: Stuff just went down, the imperial army is in full force, and the Dusk Shard disabled Fran and Balthier's speeder bike
Barheim Passage: Prison Escape. Simple stuff, that.
Lhusu: Rescue hostage. From a meta perspective this still has value in setting up Ondore's work in organizing the resistance, introducing the intra-Imperial scuffles, and giving Larsa a window into the plot at all.
Sandsea: Get to Raithwall; you could argue this was extraneous, and from a plot perspective it was, if not a setting perspective, since the Tomb really needs to not be anywhere that can easily reached.
Tomb of Raithwall: Obtain the Dawn Shard; this is critical. Ashe has no proof of her birthright as the Princess of Dalmasca, because Balthier stole it, and it was taken from him when he was captured. Archades can set up a puppet much easier if she has no proof of her birthright. Vossler's betrayal.
Garif Vilage: Learn how to use her nuke. Doesn't work.
Golmore/Henne Mines: Set up Nethicite better, meta. In-universe, save Fran's sister.
Stilshrine: Retrieve the Plot Sword, which can actually destroy Nethicite; also sets Ashe up as Raithwall's successor, in-setting and meta. That meta comes in handy later.
Archades: Reclaim Dawn Shard (Doesn't work), mess up Nethicite production. Balthier reveals. Humanize Archades a lot better.
Giruvegan: Occuria reveal, chasing Cid to reclaim Dawn Shard. The truth of the Dynast King is revealed, Ashe wavers.
Pharos at Ridorana: Ashe makes her decision to tell the Gods 'Screw You'; also, mass destruction isn't cool, even for Dalmasca. She specifically throws away her claim to successorhood of the Dynast King, as well as the Dawn and Dusk Shards, and the Sun Cryst (Which is where you get more Nethicite).
Bahamut: Kick Vayne's ass, save Dalmasca and the Resistance.

You can say it's boring, or terrible, of course, but the reasons to physically be present? There, well explained, and with the possible exception of the Henne Mines, valuable from a storytelling perspective. I strongly suspect you just got lost Mark Hunting if you completely forgot what you were doing there. That's understandable, it happened my first game.

No Mark hunting beyond what crossed my path which was very little. I simply felt most of the early story was filler with nothing actually happening. Lhusu could have been replaced better with a cutscene, the sandsea had nothing of interest, Garif Village felt like forced busywork and Golmore and the mines could have been dropped as well with no real loss. That's a big chunk of the early/midgame that felt like nothing but grinding through filler and it lost my interest in the story and didn't really get it back.

I don't mind a long game, and lament that fact that most campaigns are <10 hours these days, but at least they are filled with interesting story and not tedious busywork. I can deal with some grind, but by god, please move the plot forward occasionally and give me some progress rather than sending me to another pointless area with the party not getting any closer to actually doing something that will affect the course of the game.



Look, kid, maybe I'm not doing it for me, but because it's actually not a word that you should throw around horribly, because you don't know who's there. A lot of people on the internet manage that just fine. You seem to recognize that it was offensive, and are just hiding behind the fact that people on the internet say it anyway. They say a lot of things for pointless shock value. That's one of the ones that actually should stop.

Ah, calling the other person kid in order to make yourself seem more mature and your point more relevent. Nice touch, I haven't been called kid in a long time. If you're not doing it for you, then try not to get offended on other peoples behalf, many people on the internet (and in real life) are big enough and ugly enough to get offended all on their own.

I recognised you were getting butt-hurt over it and tried to soothe things over and be diplomatic for the sake of civility. I'm not hiding behind anything and stand by the comment that I made as apt, and not to be taken as shock value at all. I think you are reading more into it than was ever there (much like I think you are over-analysing 12 and 13, but then that's part of the argument, isn't it?).



Terraoblivion has repeated herself, explaining in better depth now. To call him a tryhard Kamina completely misses that no FFXIII character is playing their obvious role straight. They're maintaining an affectation of it for reasons of their own, which any but the most cursory readings will reveal to you.

I know that modern voice acting is still not up to the same level of theater acting, but they've come a long way. You need to really pay attention to delivery, emphasis, and the like to catch some of the subtleties. The days of text are fading, quickly, and writers are clearly catching up. You're probably not going to see much "THAT MAKES ME FEEL ANGRY" anymore.

As per previous paragraph, I think you are over-analysing to find a depth that's not really there.


...Whether Snow is white or not falls under general possible arguments of anime character ethnicity (Because the Japanese really do have very light skin tones, for reals, so ambiguity is expected in a lot of places), but Kamina? The guy dressed like a shirtless samurai with a nodachi? He's not white. Maybe be a little less ethnocentric.

The whole series had a distinctly western bent to it, possibly one of the reasons it did so well, appealing to western audiences more via being more similar to what they expect, and challenging japanese audiences with a set of characters so very different from what they are familiar with.

Either way you cut it, I didn't like either 12 or 13, and found that they were boring and not fun. Maybe I didn't sit down and analyse every sentance for it's subtle nuances and tonal changes correctly, but that's not how I roll. If you enjoyed them and found they had more depth than the Mariana trench, more power to you friend.

[RPGuru1331]

Already addressed the resistance issue. I Don't remember every detail enough to argue with you, but I'm not sure not executing someone falls under show appreciation. She doubts Balthier at every opportunity well after she should given the amount of times he assist her.
Not executing a traitor, when you've demonstrated a willingness to go MUCH FURTHER, is appreciation.
I didn't say you had to call them engaging, I challenged the idea that they were stereotypical. Now, tell me straight across:
What do you watch that the heroine willing to use nukes on people, potentially even civilians, and risk endless, massive, and complete war (Given that Rozarria and Archades stand as opposed superpowers) is stereotypical?


Balthier's motivators were his own self interest at all times, he had no clue his father would be part of this whole series of shenanigans as far as I can recall, and I doubt very much that he would care overly much one way or another about Ashe's state of mind or number of atrocities commited early on in the piece, giving him no real reason to hang around.
You know what? I'm not commenting on this matter with you on this after this post. I was just replaying it last weekend, and your memory is completely wrong.

His motive to obtain the Dusk Shard, and to escape, were self interest, yes. It's not entirely clear whether it was lulz or actual financial gain that was the initial motivator, but either way it's self interest. He goes to Lhusu because he feels indebted to Penelo, since she was kidnapped because he spoke to her, and will at least help rescue her. This is *Text*. Within the mines, however, things change. That scene where Larsa is like "This is manufacted Nethicite"? Did you not notice his ears perking up at that? The part where he starts interrogating Larsa to ask him where he got it, before Ba'Gamnan interrupted? that was so hamfisted that calling it 'overanalysis' is utterly laughable.

Notice that he doesn't seem to actually mind receiving a 'treasure who's worth can't be measured' at Raithwall, in lieu of the promised reward, although he does sarcastically comment on it. The 'payment' he takes from her to assist her is her wedding ring; any doubts on this matter should be silenced by this point. he's deduced by now that it's important to her, and isn't really taking it for its monetary value (Which is likely nil to him, compared to things like the Dawn Shard). If *THAT* didn't do it, the Garif village or the Stilshrine should; by this point, it is abundantly obvious that he is opposed to Ashe starting a huge empire with war. Think about this; if the guy was only in it for his own sake, wouldn't he you know, support her, for the rewards?

I mean, yeah, it's never boldly stated, out loud, until he's actually face to face with Cid again and all, but it's not exactly a leap given everything he does.


No Mark hunting beyond what crossed my path which was very little. I simply felt most of the early story was filler with nothing actually happening.
Well, it really doesn't kick in until the main character joins, which is a problem Square's had recently, so that's true, but if that's what you wanted to say, say that instead of "the plot never gives them a reason to do what they're doing". I started my plot run down with Balthier's introduction for a reason, and it's because that's where the plot started (And not even where it kicks into gear).


Lhusu could have been replaced better with a cutscene, the sandsea had nothing of interest, Garif Village felt like forced busywork and Golmore and the mines could have been dropped as well with no real loss.
I shouldn't have included the Sandsea in that at all; It's not really a specific location. It's a world map segment. It's the same treatment I granted the others, like Ozmone Plains or the Mosphoran Highwaste. The Garif village had a high point to me, in that the Native American standins weren't actually specially magical and always full of ancient wisdom for the others. Plotwise, it still had a purpose, in that it's where her methods start to be challenged. Even her goals are called into question.

Henne was weak; but I didn't say every place in the story was evidence of masterful craft. You said that the party never had a reason to be anywhere, and that was wrong.


Ah, calling the other person kid in order to make yourself seem more mature and your point more relevent.
You can't possibly be concerned about this after an identical implication from "You haven't been on the internet long". It would be utterly absurd. I'm forced to assume that you're not actually saying this, and that stray data has somehow entered your packets. I never even knew that was a thing, and it still would make more sense than this bit of text.


then try not to get offended on other peoples behalf, many people on the internet (and in real life) are big enough and ugly enough to get offended all on their own.
No. I refuse to be quiet just because other people can speak on the matter. If you're still using the word in something so frivolous as an argument about video games, it's still a problem.


I recognised you were getting butt-hurt over it and tried to soothe things over and be diplomatic for the sake of civility. I'm not hiding behind anything and stand by the comment that I made as apt, and not to be taken as shock value at all. I think you are reading more into it than was ever there
Really? Homophobia too? Are you going all-in on offensiveness just because you don't like being told that what you're saying is hurtful? How entitled you are.

Seriously, that you think it's appropriate doesn't make it so. You should stop digging now.


(much like I think you are over-analysing 12 and 13, but then that's part of the argument, isn't it?).
Dude, I recognize that 12 has at least some things that are technically subtext, but the stuff we're saying about 13? That's boldly stated out loud, eventually. It's at least technically possible to overanalyze when you're looking at subtext (No matter how blatantly stated it may be; indeed, some of it in 13 is so hamfisted as to be reasonably declared amateur, such as the Lhusu Mines), but you can't overanalyze when you're returning the text. I'm not even saying XIII or XII is particularly deep. I'm saying that sometimes, characters didn't say everything they were thinking out loud. If that's somehow controversial to you, well, that's... extremely unusual.


As per previous paragraph, I think you are over-analysing to find a depth that's not really there.
So... Palumpolum didn't happen to you?



The whole series had a distinctly western bent to it, possibly one of the reasons it did so well, appealing to western audiences more via being more similar to what they expect, and challenging japanese audiences with a set of characters so very different from what they are familiar with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY
Have you ever seen a super robot show in your life prior to TTGL? Because not having done so is the only way to even begin to make this claim. Kamina's archetype is so common, that Martian Successor Nadesico sent it up 11 years before Kamina even existed, and it's by no means alone in this. The others aren't exactly new either. Rossiu is the classic doubter and pragmatic skeptic who needs to STFU, Nia is the magical girlfriend and deep cover mole (who is still a magical girlfriend), Yoko is the awesome girl in teeny tiny clothes, Lord Genome's a well intentioned extremist, Viral is the good-hearted rival who's just trying to do right... Just because it's awesome doesn't mean it's unfamiliar. The only remotely unusual thing about it is that in-universe, their power is explicitly derived from their willpower and drive.


Either way you cut it, I didn't like either 12 or 13, and found that they were boring and not fun. Maybe I didn't sit down and analyse every sentance for it's subtle nuances and tonal changes correctly, but that's not how I roll. If you enjoyed them and found they had more depth than the Mariana trench, more power to you friend.

You're not even demonstrating a care for outright text. A lot of XII that you say I'm 'overanalyzing' is the level of subtext understanding popcorn action movies intend for you. I don't even count it as subtext. If you're not going to 'analyze' at the level 2012 expects of you, please don't talk to me as if I'm 'overanalyzing'

You'd have a point if I were saying that FFXII was a successor to Tim o' Brien, carrying on his anti-war polemics by demonstrating the squeamishness that people that weren't poor men demonstrated in the face of atrocity, but the posts I've been making? This isn't even grade school level literary or theatrical analysis. I'm not saying it's particularly deep, but it does require some tiny modicum of understanding of subtext that TV and movies should have trained you for.