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View Full Version : [3.x,feats,PEACH] I got the magic in me!



Sir Swindle89
2011-06-07, 07:34 AM
Nearly evey casting system in 3.x has feats associated with it to allow access to chatacters that did not take one of the associated class. The largest exception being Arcane and Divine. I designed these feats to remedy that. The trick was to make them worth while for non-casters but not overpowered if a caster took one.

Student of the Arcane
Prerequisites: Knowlege (Arcane) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Benefit:You gain access to 2 arcane spell slots of up to the max level you can learn. Your max spell level is equal to half your level (up to 9th level spells). Upon taking this feat you may choose to either prepare spells or cast spontaneously for all spell slots gained from Studnet of the Arcane. If you choose to prepare spells, you may prepare spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. You must have an Int score of at least 10+half spell level and . If you choose to cast spontaneously you must have a Cha score of at least 10+half spell level and your level is treated as 1 lower for determining max spell level. You also add two spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. Your caster level for these spells is equal to your level. Saves DC's against these spells are equal to 10+spell level+Int or Cha modifier.
Special:This feat can be taken more than once, gaining new spell slots every time. This is NOT a fighter bonus feat nor a wizard bonus feat.

Student of the Divine
Prerequisites: Knowlege (Divine) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Benefit:You gain access to 2 Divine spell slots of up to the max level you can learn. Your max spell level is equal to half your level (up to 9th level spells). You may prepare spells from the cleric spell list. You must have an Wis score of at least 10+half spell level. Your max spell level is equal to the value for your level on chart 1. Your caster level for these spells is equal to your level. Saves DC's against these spells are equal to 10+spell level+Wis modifier.
Special:This feat can be taken more than once, gaining new spell slots every time. This is NOT a fighter bonus feat nor a wizard bonus feat.

Student of the Nature
Prerequisites: Knowlege (Nature) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Benefit:You gain access to 2 Divine spell slots of up to the max level you can learn. Your max spell level is equal to half your level (up to 9th level spells). You may prepare spells from the druid spell list. You must have an Wis score of at least 10+half spell level. Your max spell level is equal to the value for your level on chart 1. Your caster level for these spells is equal to your level. Saves DC's against these spells are equal to 10+spell level+Wis modifier.
Special:This feat can be taken more than once, gaining new spell slots every time. This is NOT a fighter bonus feat nor a wizard bonus feat.

Kyrinthic
2011-06-07, 07:46 AM
These seem too powerful.
A level 6 fighter tossing around a couple fireballs is pretty strong.
It will also allow access to several Prestige class combinations really not designed for it.

If you want something like these, I would go with max spell level of 1/3rd or 1/4th level, so a full caster has access to higher level spells. A non-caster shouldnt be able to pick up wish twice a day for example, or miracle.

I would probably only give 1 spell, but maybe let you use it twice per day. It would not be changable daily by way of spellbooks or whatever.

And it wont count for 'ability to cast a level X spell' for prestige class entrance.

That covers the brokenness, without making them worthless.
It of course depends on what you are looking for, If you are looking for a cheap way to let lower tier characters compete with higher tier ones, you could use it as written. But realize that it just means your already powerful wizard can now cast heal and true ressurection. And enter any theurge class without losing spell progression.

Morph Bark
2011-06-07, 08:22 AM
I'd add as a prereq that you cannot have levels in the class they grant spells from, and that they don't gain bonus spell slots from a high ability score. Also, giving TWO spell slots is quite a lot, especially since they scale with your character level. Making it one of the highest level and one below that and have it only work for one base class, plus all PrCs, that would make it more balanced.

Sir Swindle89
2011-06-07, 01:31 PM
I didn't take theurges into account when i made these. However i don't know that it's a huge issue, since you don't have "levels in existing spell casting class" to increase, you simply have a spell from a list. It would take a few levels out of those builds tho. Banning fullcasters might be an answer I shall think on it.

I personally do not see any thing wrong with a fighter that put 16 ranks(2 cross class skills) and spent a feat having 2 level appropriate effects each day (miracle, ect. have exp costs for a reason). Not to mention the MAD-ness he would have to endure.

these were some waht inspired by the this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201699) thread.

Morph Bark
2011-06-07, 06:54 PM
I didn't take theurges into account when i made these. However i don't know that it's a huge issue, since you don't have "levels in existing spell casting class" to increase, you simply have a spell from a list. It would take a few levels out of those builds tho. Banning fullcasters might be an answer I shall think on it.

The issues is that, as is, the feats can be used to give spellcasters more spell slots for their highest-level spells. To get two spell slots of their second-highest level spells, it would cost two or four feats already. (Earth Spell et al. from Races of Stone, IIRC.)


I personally do not see any thing wrong with a fighter that put 16 ranks(2 cross class skills) and spent a feat having 2 level appropriate effects each day (miracle, ect. have exp costs for a reason). Not to mention the MAD-ness he would have to endure.

Correction, 16 skill points, not ranks.

And it wouldn't be very MAD if he rolled well or simply sticks to whichever spell level is the highest he can access.

Kyrinthic
2011-06-08, 09:27 AM
miracle can basically be any level 8 or lower cleric spell, any level 7 or lower spell of any other sort, or cure most harmful effects, with no xp cost. The spell is underrated as an all purpose handy spell, giving spontaneous versatility in prepared slots.

A fighter investing in this isnt that powerful, cause fighters suck. But take a good T3 class like a swordsage, add a dose of 'whatever spell they want' and it becomes noticable. I'm just saying that gaining access to the most powerful class abilites of T1 classes for a feat is something you want to be careful with.

I mean, lets say you are just a fighter, and you put your level 6,9,12,15 and 18 slot into this. You can now cast 10 level 9 or less spells a day. This isnt a full caster, but for a fight or two you will be, and you can do most of the same game-crushing tricks. And you have some hp and feats. And again, if you are a warblade or something, that becomes even nastier. Hey, just having mass heal for 200 points on tap 10 times a day is pretty damn handy.

And, of course giving the casters more options is also generally a bad plan.

keeping a level normally needed to dip for theurging is worth a feat alone, especially when you get a couple free slots to cast with on top of it. Hey, lets get 1 cleric level (oh darn, I get stuck with turn attempts and another +2 to a couple saves), then theurge it up, and keep a pair of level maxed spells to boot. All for 1 wiz level that wont even put my spell progression slower than a sorc.

16 skill ranks, or 4 for quite a few classes that would find these sorts of feats interesting.

Basically, spells, especially top level spells, are the most powerful thing in the game. A feat that gives them is basically better than any other feat I can think of. This needs restrictions or you will see your players taking them to exclusion. At the very least, pretty much any class that takes this feat, especially a few times, is going up a tier. Thats not something you can say about any other feat.

Solaris
2011-06-08, 05:08 PM
Basically, spells, especially top level spells, are the most powerful thing in the game. A feat that gives them is basically better than any other feat I can think of. This needs restrictions or you will see your players taking them to exclusion. At the very least, pretty much any class that takes this feat, especially a few times, is going up a tier. Thats not something you can say about any other feat.

The first point he makes is that this feat is the definition of broken: It's the single best option to take.

The second point, about classes that take it going up a tier... eh, I can see how this could be a good thing. It depends on the situation (and could rock as a replacement for casters). Overall, however, it is a dangerous thing for game balance.

I'd break these down into feat chains that kind of mimic spellcasting progression, only with small numbers of slots - one slot at the highest it gives, one slot at the level lower (or two levels lower, if it's the second-level spells or higher). Thus, Arcane I would grant a 1st-level and a 0-level, Arcane II would grant a 2nd-level and a 0-level, Arcane III would grant a 3rd-level and a 1st-level, Arcane IV (if you go that high!) would grant a 4th-level and a 2nd-level, and so on. I wouldn't take it past third-level slots, but that's just me. I'd also bump up the ability score requirements to what they are for normal casters +2, so a character would require a Wisdom of 13+ to get 1st-level spells.

Kyrinthic
2011-06-08, 07:21 PM
I was thinking about this some this afternoon, and I was thinking along these lines:

Intiate of blah: knowledge (blah) becomes a class skill. You gain 1 level 0 spell slot.

Student of blah: req: intiate of blah, knowledge (blah) 4 ranks.
You gain two spell slots.
one must be higher than the other.
None can be higher than character level / 2
you must have a slot of every level between 0 and the slot learned.
You can take this multiple times, each time the knowledge req increases by 3.

-------------------------------

So, level 1, you can get a level 0 slot, and the knowledge skill as class (makes sense for a student line of feats).

If you focus every leveling feat on this path, you would have
0 01 23 34 56 67 89 spells. You would need a 18 ranks in knowledge as well.

This is a lot weaker than real spell progression, and costs 7 feats, so its a serious investment. Lesser investments can be useful, but less so. You wont have feats to get things like metamagic, so you wont rival a real caster at all.

I would also suggest limiting 'spells known' in some way, either pick a specific spell rather than having a slot when you take the feat (probably the most balanced option), or having a limit to how many spells you can know.


At that point I dont think this feat line would be the best possible choice for everyone, but instead a compelling choice for anyone.

Sir Swindle89
2011-06-09, 07:07 AM
Ok, i feel like there's been a diconnect from my original intent as far as what spell slots and at what level you have access to them.


up to the max level you can learn.
Was not suppose to keep scaleing. (maybe that needs clarification)

by my intent taking the feats exclusivly would yield: 2x0th lvl, 2x1st lvl, 2x3rd lvl, 2x4th lvl, 2x6th lvl, 2x7th lvl, 2x9th lvl spell slots

Also upon review the spontaneous option for arcane is awful in comparison. Maybe if i convert all of the feats to that sort of system and have it give 2spells known and 1 more spell known of every level spell you have gained from this feat. (no clue how to word that properly) basically what i'm trying to say is when you take it at 18th level and gain your 2 9th lvl slots and gain you 2 9th lvl spells known you would also gain one 3rd lvl spell known from when you took it at 6th lvl along with a 1st lvl spell known ifyou took it at 3rd lvl.

Veklim
2011-06-09, 07:47 AM
This:
I'd break these down into feat chains that kind of mimic spellcasting progression, only with small numbers of slots - one slot at the highest it gives, one slot at the level lower (or two levels lower, if it's the second-level spells or higher). Thus, Arcane I would grant a 1st-level and a 0-level, Arcane II would grant a 2nd-level and a 0-level, Arcane III would grant a 3rd-level and a 1st-level, Arcane IV (if you go that high!) would grant a 4th-level and a 2nd-level, and so on. I wouldn't take it past third-level slots, but that's just me. I'd also bump up the ability score requirements to what they are for normal casters +2, so a character would require a Wisdom of 13+ to get 1st-level spells.Is not a bad way of going about things actually (though I'd expect nothing less from Solaris :smallwink:).
Looking hard at this though, you're essentially making a feat which gives you (spell X 1/day) X2, like an SLA. Following that logic, you should NEVER consider giving anything above a 4th-5th level slot for any and all character classes with a feat. Ever.

...until epic anyhow.

Sir Swindle89
2011-06-09, 10:28 AM
Looking hard at this though, you're essentially making a feat which gives you (spell X 1/day) X2, like an SLA. Following that logic, you should NEVER consider giving anything above a 4th-5th level slot for any and all character classes with a feat. Ever.

...until epic anyhow.

why? wizards suggestions/guidlines? A SLA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) is significantly different from actually casting a spell. (Armor, Xp, ect.)

Veklim
2011-06-09, 06:22 PM
ACP only applies to spells with somatic components, plenty of stuff out there not needing them.

Sir Swindle89
2011-06-09, 11:50 PM
ACP only applies to spells with somatic components, plenty of stuff out there not needing them.

could you post a list? because the last time i looked it up i think i found all of 2 spells in the players handbook.

Veklim
2011-06-10, 05:23 AM
Good lord, seriously?! OK, OK, I'll start compiling a list for you, may take me some time as I work crazy hours but I'll have a preliminary one for you asap unless you or I find one elsewhere... :smallbiggrin:

Sir Swindle89
2011-06-10, 06:38 AM
found one (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/78262-list-arcane-spells-without-somatic-components.html)

There are some useful ones on there, but i would hesitate to say they are plentifull. I suppose the entire druid and cleric spell lists are also worth mentioning.

Veklim
2011-06-10, 07:57 AM
There are some useful ones on there, but i would hesitate to say they are plentifull.
You're not looking for massive choice, you're looking for limited use diversity and handy tricks. If you want truly plentiful, then you should be playing a caster.

Bards also have a fair few tricks at their disposal when it comes to non-somatic, but you don't have the bard list there under student of the arcane.


I suppose the entire druid and cleric spell lists are also worth mentioning.
They are indeed, on account of caring little about what armour they are in. I hadn't got that far into a rant yet!


A SLA is significantly different from actually casting a spell. (Armor, Xp, ect.)
I realise this, but there are ways past a lot of those problems, spells with no somatics (as discussed already), the eschew materials feat which takes away a small headache for the fighter with minimal pockets in his breastplate, and just having a few ranks in concentrate (which most of my fighters have, plus their good con mod).

The point I'm trying to make is that you're offering two select spells of a level roughly equal to a wizard/cleric of your level, to a class with no casting. The issue is with the power of the idea, as much as anything else. I really think you're on to something kinda sweet, but the basics of these feats need changing before we can argue semantics and somatics :smallamused:
Have you ever looked at the spelltouched feats btw? What you're proposing here is an interesting counterpart to those feats, perhaps you should look to them for balance?

Ingus
2011-06-10, 09:32 AM
I like the fix Kyrinthic proposed, but I would add something.
1) You have the ability to cast like a spellcaster, but you earn no actual caster level, nor the actual ability to cast spells (i.e.: this feat chain cannot be used to qualify for PrC, other feats, metamagic or whatever)
2) To qualify, you can't have caster level. This to avoid to grant spellcasters other powerful options (Cleric+Wiz spells)
3) You can't gain a spell slot higher than 6th. Even Kryn-like stated, any player I know would put it on his fighter. And this feat chain outshines the Chameleon PrC to go gish (consider Factotum8 + Swashbuckler3 + Assassin1 + ChameleonX WhateverYouLikeX; or simply add in Chameleon and reach 9th level spells).