Two Weapon Fighting Help

[mrcarter11]

Hello, I've been trying to understand some simple things about TWF, hoping someone can help some.

I'm level 10, with full BAB, and a Str of 18. I've currently got TWF and ITWF. So that allows for two attacks with the primary, and two with the secondary, correct? And now the part that confuses me more so, I've also gained a permanent Haste effect. So would I gain an extra attack with each weapon, giving me six total, or just my primary, giving me 5 total?

Currently I have it looking like this on my sheet

Full Attack: +14/+14/+14/+9/+9. I assumed that Haste would only grant a single extra attack, not two.

Note: The weapons are each +1.

So could someone tell me if a) Haste grants one or two attacks and b) what's worth using after I get GTWF, before epic?

[Origomar]

dont trust me, because i am not the most fluent in all of the rules.


but i count 13/13/13/13/8/8


13 because 10(BAB)+4(str)+1(+1 weapons)+-2(dual weidling)

and the way i read haste it says an extra attack with any weapon(so if your holding two weapons two extra attacks)

so 13(BAB)/13(dual)/13(haste)/13(haste)/8(bab)/8(dual)

[John Campbell]

It's an extra attack with any weapon, not an extra attack with every weapon. You get one extra attack. It doesn't have to be with your primary, though that's most likely, because presumably there's a reason that your primary is your primary.

[SleepyShadow]

Haste says: "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding."

Though some DM interpretation may rule otherwise, you only get one extra attack. A general rule of thumb for interpreting rules is whichever interpretation gives the fewest bonuses is probably the right one.

As for your attack sequence, the math works out like this:

10(BAB)+4(Str)+1(Weapon)+1(Haste)-2(Two-Weapon Fighting)

Giving a final total of:

+14(Main-Hand)/+14(Off-Hand)/+14(Haste)/+9(Iterative Main-Hand)/+9(Iterative Off-Hand)

[mrcarter11]

Alright so I got everything right then.. Thank you everyone, I had just wanted to make sure.. No one likes selling themselves short.. And advice on feats or the like?

[SleepyShadow]

Feats, eh? Well, what class are you, and what is your character concept? It's a lot easier to help with that sort of information. :smallsmile:

[mrcarter11]

That's true.. I didn't originally list them, because I'm using two homebrew base classes.. They are the War-Marked and Ebon Initiate.. I should mention it's a gestalt game.. Anyways, the game is a duo game set in the 9 Hells.. We start there and can try to escape or fight for survival. We plan on doing the latter and staying around to fight demons in the Blood War, to court infernal favor.

Theme: I can't really say.. He's a doctor type, he is evil, but not in the normal sense. He loves the concept of death. He enjoys studying how it happens and what happens to things that die. He understands the need to kill, to make such observations. I'll likely be LE or NE. He's a tyrant though, he enjoys ordering around his summoned minions and loves the power that comes with it.

I doubt any of that helps much, so allow a mechanical questions: Does rend trigger Sneak Attack

[Drglenn]

Quick question: do you have any method of doing extra damage on your attacks (sneak attack/skirmish/whatever)? If not TWF isn't really worth it as 2-handers do similar (sometimes more) damage and are more accurate

[Keld Denar]

Rend is not an attack, its just automatic damage. It would not trigger SA.

If you are regularly fighting big evil outsiders and you aren't evil yourself, I'd HIGHLY recommend the feat Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness. It allows you to make a save as a move action when you are afflicted by a handful of conditions, even if the condition you are affected by doesn't normally allow a save. This is one of the VERY few counters to Blasphemy, the most common tactic among evil outsiders with 12+ HD. If they are even or higher level than you, it will automatically daze you for 1d4 rounds. Assuming you aren't dead in 1d4 rounds, he could just daze you again ad nausium until you actually ARE dead. Quick Recovery allows you to make a save on the first round you are afflicted with it to shake off the effects.

[mrcarter11]

I'm evil yes.. Just not the mainstay evil that most think off.. And yes, I do have a source of extra damage. I was hoping rend would trigger.. Is rend worth the feat anyways? I also have Pounce if that makes any difference

[Cog]

Quick question: do you have any method of doing extra damage on your attacks (sneak attack/skirmish/whatever)? If not TWF isn't really worth it as 2-handers do similar (sometimes more) damage and are more accurate
There are other ways to get around that. Revenant Blade probably isn't relevant here, but Exotic Weapon Master with either Dragonsplits or Oversized TWF will do it.

[John Campbell]

I doubt any of that helps much, so allow a mechanical questions: Does rend trigger Sneak Attack

I don't believe so. The attacks themselves would get Sneak Attack if applicable, but the rend is just bonus damage, not another attack.

[Keld Denar]

Which marks are you going with for Warmarked? Cause some of them make TWFing decent, but most do not. Also, what ECL are you starting at and exactly what class makeup are you using? I know Warmarked is only 14 levels long, so...

[mrcarter11]

Nah, I'm dealing enough damage.. Alright so would Rend still be worth it? Or can anyone recommend something that is? My defenses are fine, so no worries there.. I've just really used TWF before and didn't know what to get.

[mrcarter11]

(God this seems familiar)Keld: War-Marked is full 20 actually.. Doc blessed the last 6 levels at the bottom of the page as the final 6. As for marks..

Mark of the Tempest
Mark of the Anvil
Mark of Dreaming
Mark of Fury
Mark of Lash

And I'm in fullplate.. So my move is 20 ft, and I got 20 ft reach..

[JaronK]

If you're evil already, have you considered going undead via Necropolitan? If you do, that opens up some nice options. For example, you could dual wield Lifedrinker (DMG) Kukris, doing two negative levels per hit... that's absolutely devastating. Dipping Warblade for Blood in the Water can also help.

JaronK

[mrcarter11]

I hadn't know.. And while the idea does sound nice, I have no idea where I'd fit it.. I plan on trying to take full 20 in both my bases for the capstones.. And I thought Lifedrinker was a specific weapon, not a property :smallconfused:

[JaronK]

MiC allows you to take the special weapons and apply them to different weapon types, so you could have a Kukri instead of Longsword.

JaronK

[mrcarter11]

Huh.. Never knew that.. Anyways, the Warblade dip isn't needed, as I'm not much of a crit fisher.. So, it's be better applied to the weapons I already use.. But thank you.. I can try to see where I could work that in.

[SleepyShadow]

If you are looking for two weapon fighting feats, I had a devastating two-weapon fighter who took great advantage of these feats:

Improved Trip
Double Hit
High Sword Low Axe
Karmic Strike
Robilar's Gambit

Double Hit allowed him to use his off-hand during an AoO, High Sword Low Axe allowed free trip attempts whenever he hit with both weapons during an attack sequence, and Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit allowed him to hit+trip the enemy whenever they attacked him, leaving my PC free to full attack them while they were still prone on my turn.

[mrcarter11]

I had been looking at taking Two Weapon Attack of Opportunity.. And Double Hit seems better in every way, so thank you for that.. Thank you very much.

[NeoSeraphi]

To answer your question that everyone seems to have missed, I don't believe Two-Weapon Rend is worth a feat if you already have pounce AND a permanent Haste effect. (Nice going, btw)

The Lifedrinking dual kukris are a nice idea, but of course that would require you to become undead, which costs you a level with the Necropolitan template.

If you don't want to become undead, I suggest keen wounding kukris, as your character wants to watch people die and dealing Con damage with each hit will really get them closer and closer to death. (If you're dual wielding kukris and you need to ask why you should get the keen enhancement, then I just simply can't help you)

An alternative would be to take the Lightning Mace feat and dual wield Light Maces (or do that stupid Aptitude kukri thing if you really want to optimize, but you said you weren't crit fishing so whatever)

For the sheer number of attacks, I would suggest taking the Martial Study (Dancing Mongoose) feat. This would require you to take the Martial Study feat 3 times (in order to meet the prerequisite, you need two other Tiger Claw maneuvers) so only do it if you have some feats lying around or maybe a couple of extra flaws. But to gain the ability to make 7 attacks 1/day instead of 5 seems like a useful last resort feat to have when fighting in Hell.

[mrcarter11]

NeoSeraphi: Thanks, yeah people seemed to miss that question. I didn't think it was worth it, the damage seemed to small to be worth a feat, but figured I'd at least ask..

Lifedrinking is doable at level 30th, but I doubt this game will even near that point.. I just plan my PC's out way to much.. Anyways, I do wish to gain wounding soon.. The only thing about the Kukris.. Mark of the Anvil is a class feature of mine, that requires me to have a hammer to use anything it gives.. And it gives some okay stuff.. I may invest in the kukris in the future... Or at least one, to replace my off hand light pick.. But currently rocking a warhammer in my main hand is just nicer..

I doubt I can find that many extra feats laying around.. I wish though..

[NeoSeraphi]

NeoSeraphi: Thanks, yeah people seemed to miss that question. I didn't think it was worth it, the damage seemed to small to be worth a feat, but figured I'd at least ask..

Lifedrinking is doable at level 30th, but I doubt this game will even near that point.. I just plan my PC's out way to much.. Anyways, I do wish to gain wounding soon.. The only thing about the Kukris.. Mark of the Anvil is a class feature of mine, that requires me to have a hammer to use anything it gives.. And it gives some okay stuff.. I may invest in the kukris in the future... Or at least one, to replace my off hand light pick.. But currently rocking a warhammer in my main hand is just nicer..

I doubt I can find that many extra feats laying around.. I wish though..

My apologies. I am unfamiliar with the homebrew classes you are taking. Though a warhammer is definitely an amazing choice for a main hand two-weapon fighting build.

In that case, you should look for some homebrew feats that allow dazing or stunning off of hitting with a bludgeoning weapon. (I'm sure there are plenty like it, or if not, you could homebrew one yourself)

I'm sure your DM would allow it, after all, bludgeoning weapons get so little love when compared to slashing and piercing. Slashing weapons have vorpal, piercing weapons have either reach or make up the majority of ranged weapons, and both of them have the keen enhancement. (I know there's a spell for doubling the threat range of bludgeoning weapons, but I don't think it ever made it into being an enhancement).

Bludgeoning weapons get the benefits of higher crit multipliers, but the slashing weapons even catch up there with the two-handed set, the greataxe and the scythe are both slashing weapons.

Knocking someone in the face with a hammer should daze them. There's the Deadly Concussion feat from Dragon 330, but it requires Power Attack and Improved Sunder, so it doesn't really fit.

[mrcarter11]

No problem on the not knowing about the homebrew, I totally understand that..

I may be able to find a few.. I shall look into the stunning side of things.

I think the other form of keen is called collision which is a weapon property..

In any case..

Can someone explain the difference between TWFAoO and Double Hit.. How does the former compare at all. Double Hit seems better all the way around.

[NeoSeraphi]

No problem on the not knowing about the homebrew, I totally understand that..

I may be able to find a few.. I shall look into the stunning side of things.

I think the other form of keen is called collision which is a weapon property..

In any case..

Can someone explain the difference between TWFAoO and Double Hit.. How does the former compare at all. Double Hit seems better all the way around.

The difference is that Double Hit has a +6 BAB requirement, which puts it almost at the half-way point for most twf builds (+6 BAB at 9th level for rogues and other skirmishers)

[King Atticus]

As for your attack sequence, the math works out like this:

10(BAB)+4(Str)+1(Weapon)+1(Haste)-2(Two-Weapon Fighting)

Giving a final total of:

+14(Main-Hand)/+14(Off-Hand)/+14(Haste)/+9(Iterative Main-Hand)/+9(Iterative Off-Hand)

Would he still take the -2 on the haste attack even though he's not taking a swing with his second weapon or is that one attack considered to be at the full amount?



As far as feats go, if your rocking the warhammer you might consider taking oversized two-weapon fighting and dual wield those bad boys. Also possibly the Pulverize Foe feat from CoR every hit after the first in a round with a bludgeoning weapon deals an extra 1D6. Plus if you can meet the prerecs Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning) will give you your +2 back on attack roles and give a little extra damage as well.

[Cog]

Would he still take the -2 on the haste attack even though he's not taking a swing with his second weapon or is that one attack considered to be at the full amount?
TWF penalties apply to all your attacks.

[Keld Denar]

Also, MWM: Bludgeoning is a prereq for...oh crap. Whats the bludgeoning version of Slashing Fury and Driving Attack? Its a stacking +1 to either hit or damage, or maybe both...I forget.

I forget if Warmarked count as Fighters to take Weapon Spec like Warblades do...

I'll have to look up my link to the PrC when I get home later.

[mrcarter11]

I believe it is Crushing Blow.. And how do I get around to using a warhammer in each hand?

[Keld Denar]

Same way you do anything with TWF...throw moar feats at it. Oversized TWFing (CAdv) will bring your -4/-4 penalty from Warhammers down to -2/-2.

Oh, one other advantage that bludgeoning weapons have over other weapons...Greater Mighty Wallop. Increases the weapon's effective size by 1 catagory per 4 CLs. 3rd level Wizard spell that lasts hours/level. Get you a friendly caster to cash one in.

[Draz74]

MiC allows you to take the special weapons and apply them to different weapon types,

Wait ... I always thought that was a houserule, or maybe a recommended "Adaptation" type thing. Does MIC actually say this in a rules-like way? What page?