Help with Song of the White Raven

[Tavar]

Well. I'm joining a campaign soon, but after about a year away from DnD, I'm a bit rusty. Plus, information about the setting is very, very sparse, so I'm having trouble getting inspired. Here's what I know so far;


The party is a Dwarven Dragonborn Knight, using a breath weapon, a Dwarven Cleric of Pelor, and a Changeling Rogue, with a ranged combat focus. There might also be some sort of Factotum, but all I know for certain is that another character is being entered.
Homebrew is not allowed.
Non-Core material must be approved, but the approval seems pretty lenient.
Starting level is 1st.
Official description of the world is as follows; Run of the mill Greyhawk world, with splashes of Ebberon. Whatever that means. We're starting in a small city, only features of note are a Temple to Pelor, a local chapter of the Adventurer’s Guild, and a small building run by the Mage Academy.
We're apparently not going to be dealing with foreign countries, and there has been peace for over 500 years.
Optimization is probably pretty low(essentially, most will use the classes in the exact way that Wizards intended them to).



New thought; what about Bard/ToB? Obviously with Song of the White Raven somewhere in there. Now, of course, the question becomes; what more. I mean, what's the ratio of classes I should have, and are their any PrC's that would help me? I'd assume I want Inspirational Boost as soon as I can get it, but what else?


So, ideas? I was thinking of some kind of brawler, probably swordsage or warblade, but I'm just not really feeling anything. And from experience, if I'm not enthused about a character, it gets really boring to play him, fast.

[SleepyShadow]

If you are looking for a brawler character that you won't get bored with, try the Sacred Fist PrC. It's in Complete Divine, and is essentially a cleric/monk. It's in Complete Divine, so it should not have any trouble being allowed by your DM. It is simple to qualify for, either Monk 1/Cleric 6 or Cleric 1/Monk 6 gets you in, depending on whether you want more or less magic. I recommend looking into it.

Also, a Tashalatora monk would proved equally fun and effective to play. You can either be up front in the midst of the fighting, or in the back blasting away with your psionics, depending on your mood at the moment.

[Tokuhara]

If you are looking for a brawler character that you won't get bored with, try the Sacred Fist PrC. It's in Complete Divine, and is essentially a cleric/monk. It's in Complete Divine, so it should not have any trouble being allowed by your DM. It is simple to qualify for, either Monk 1/Cleric 6 or Cleric 1/Monk 6 gets you in, depending on whether you want more or less magic. I recommend looking into it.

Also, a Tashalatora monk would proved equally fun and effective to play. You can either be up front in the midst of the fighting, or in the back blasting away with your psionics, depending on your mood at the moment.

I suggest the following build:

Race: Changeling
Class: Changeling Rogue 1 (skill points basically)/Factotum 7 (Starting to become awesome)/Chameleon 10 (Almost perfect)/Cabinet Trickster 1/Master of Masks 1 (Now, you rock)

Here's the Long & Short: You are Schrodinger's Hero: You are everything and nothing, you can emulate any race, class, and PrC (to a degree), and you blow EVERY OTHER skillmonkey clean out of the water

[Tavar]

We already have 1, possibly 2 skillmonkeys, one being a changeling rogue, the other might possibly be factotum. I'd rather not step on the other players toes like that.

[Tavar]

New though; what about Bard/ToB? Obviously with Song of the White Raven somewhere in there. Now, of course, the question becomes; what more. I mean, what's the ratio of classes I should have, and are their any PrC's that would help me? I'd assume I want Inspirational Boost as soon as I can get it, but what else? Important feats to get?

And, do you think Warblade or Crusader would work better with the build? What impact would using one over the other have?

[Gabe the Bard]

It looks like the party could use another tanker, so I would suggest warblade.

Song of the White Raven doesn't work well with Inspirational Boost, since they both require swift actions. If you're using Eberron books, I would pick up Song of the Heart at 3rd level, to give you a boost to your bardic music (+1 to everything).

[Madcrafter]

Warblade is usually better than crusader for a martial bard, unless you have the urge to tank. You can usually get away with very few levels of bard, (especially if your DM allows Song of the White Raven to stack for uses/day as well), so most of the time it comes down to how much spellcasting you really need, or if you want to pick up some ACFs or other music uses (other than IC).

As for feats, the best ones are out of core; you may want to check out:
-Dragonfire Inspiration (add Xd6 dmg instead of +X for inspire courage) (Dragon Magic?)
-Word of Creation (double your IC bonus) (BoED)
-Song of the Heart (+1 to IC) (ECS)
As well, Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn), Knowledge devotion (CC) (with collector of stories skill trick), and Lingering Song (CAd) work quite well.

Edit: Song of the white raven is may use a swift action, so you can spend longer if you want the boost, or start quickly without.

[Draz74]

Why the devil would anyone ever suggest 7 levels of Factotum without going on to take Level 8? Level 8 is the best Factotum level of all. :smallconfused:

On-topic: The standard recommended build for Bardblades is Bard 4 / Warblade 16. Losing 2 initiator levels doesn't hurt too much, four levels of Bard only loses you one point of BAB, and it gets you a few uses/day of Inspire Courage.

[Amnestic]

As for feats, the best ones are out of core; you may want to check out:
-Dragonfire Inspiration (add Xd6 dmg instead of +X for inspire courage) (Dragon Magic?)

In addition: DFI keys off of your IC bonus to attack rolls. This means that using a Masterwork Mandolin (ComAdv) can get you an extra +1d6 on your DFI for no negatives whatsoever. You may want an alternative instrument on hand if you use Inspire Courage as it is though, as otherwise you lose +1 damage and +1 on fear/charm.

[Tavar]

Any particular order I should take those levels in? I'd assume staggered in some way, but besides having bard as a first level, is their anything else important?

Also, 28 point buy, if that matters.

[Draz74]

Any particular order I should take those levels in? I'd assume staggered in some way, but besides having bard as a first level, is their anything else important?

Also, 28 point buy, if that matters.

Depends what level you're starting at. Generally, you want to save the Warblade levels as long as possible, so your initiator level will be higher when you get maneuvers. For example, if you start with all four Bard levels before taking Warblade, then your first Warblade maneuvers taken can include Level 3 gems like WRT or IHS.

But since you're starting at Level 1, you might feel pressure to take a Warblade level at level 2 or 3, so you can become less fragile.

[Tavar]

Hmm... Would being a divine bard allow me to wear whatever armor I pleased?

[Amnestic]

Hmm... Would being a divine bard allow me to wear whatever armor I pleased?

Yes, though obviously it helps to be proficient with said armour too :smalltongue:

[Madcrafter]

The divine bard is an ok choice, but the use of wiz instead of cha makes you a little more MAD and a little less bardy. Although since you are really only likely to get up to 2nd level spells, that may be less of an issue (since saving throw spells wouldn't be a great choice anyways, you can leave you wis at 12)

[Greenish]

Hmm... Would being a divine bard allow me to wear whatever armor I pleased?You probably don't want to wear anything heavier than mithral breastplate, since warblade is only proficient with medium armours, and mithral full plate isn't very cost effective until highest levels (where you can smack the ASF to negligible).


I'm not sure how your party is going to divine exactly how wizards' intended the classes to be used, though.

[Coidzor]

Song of the White Raven doesn't work well with Inspirational Boost, since they both require swift actions. If you're using Eberron books, I would pick up Song of the Heart at 3rd level, to give you a boost to your bardic music (+1 to everything).

Well, the other use of Song of the White Raven is that having crusader or warblade levels means one is still progressing one's inspire courage. Generally though, yeah, one will spend a standard action getting bardic music up and a swift getting inspirational boost off. So one could spend that move action getting into a position from which a charge maneuver might be viable, I guess.


I'm not sure how your party is going to divine exactly how wizards' intended the classes to be used, though.

I guess clerics aren't allowed to prep anything but cure and healing spells and wizards have to be evokers. x,x

...Any other class and I have no idea, myself.

edit: a bit of a long shot would be Heartfire Fanner (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) from Dragon Mag placed upon a warriory/gishy chassis, though it might be more in line with what you want to differentiate yourself from the skillmonkey contingent.

...Can't recall if warrior skald would progress casting and IC and give full BAB progression with its levels offhand, but might be worth looking at as another way of putting IC onto a warrior chassis. If you do have bard levels, you might be able to trade off the bardic musics you don't want in exchange for the relevant feats, like Song of the Heart.

The way both PrCs work, it seems more than likely that Song of the White Raven would still work with them to make your crusader & warblade levels stack for IC benefits.

[Greenish]

I guess clerics aren't allowed to prep anything but cure and healing spells and wizards have to be evokers.Well, yes, that's the often mentioned claim, but as far as I can see, it's based on guesswork and a few officially statted NPCs. Not exactly a solid base for playing exactly as intended.

[Tavar]

Well, yes, that's the often mentioned claim, but as far as I can see, it's based on guesswork and a few officially statted NPCs. Not exactly a solid base for playing exactly as intended.

At least one poster on the forum has said that the classes were only play-tested using those roles. Yes, it's idiotic, but that's apparently what happened.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

On the topic of Song of the White Raven...

Many people go Bard4/either Crusader or Warblade x. This is for the following reasons:

* More BAB. This build gets you 19/20 BAB. This nets you the full iterative attack progression.

* More ToB Maneuvers. Which are, quite bluntly, more powerful than most things Bards get access to. And, this way, you get access to 9th level maneuvers. How about tossing around 2d6 Con damage? Or having two turns worth of attacking in a single turn? Yea, these are fun things to do.

* With Song of the White Raven, your crusader/warblade levels stack with Bard for Inspire Courage. Google the Inspire Courage Handbook. It's good.

* With Bard4, you get a 1st level spell, for Inspirational Boost, to give your Inspire Courage some love.

So it's really the optimal spread, as far as everything is concerned.

Now then. There's another option you may wish to consider:

Bard4/Warblade6/War Chanter 10. (or rather, Bard4/Warblade3/War Chanter 10/Warblade3).

War Chanter does not advance IC, but it does net you some fun abilities, like Twin Song (which lets you do both IC and DFI at the same time) and the capstone really IS all that awesome. Song of the Legion turns summoned speedbumps into viable threats.

[Madcrafter]

That would depend on if his companions are doing the summoning gig. Otherwise, you can have both IC and DFI up at the same time by just starting one and then starting the next. This takes some actions and more uses/day, but sometimes that is worth it.

As for Warchanter, if you want to do that, I would think dropping it at level five would be best. More manoeuvres is always good, and IMO, better than the warchanter capstone (unless of course, you do have a lot more allies other than your party fighting with you).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That would depend on if his companions are doing the summoning gig. Otherwise, you can have both IC and DFI up at the same time by just starting one and then starting the next. This takes some actions and more uses/day, but sometimes that is worth it.

As for Warchanter, if you want to do that, I would think dropping it at level five would be best. More manoeuvres is always good, and IMO, better than the warchanter capstone (unless of course, you do have a lot more allies other than your party fighting with you).

The capstone is also good for strikers who have dipped with 3/4 BAB classes several times, and have a significantly lower BAB as a result. This can really cripple an otherwise nifty build with lots of abilities, because they find themselves unable to land a hit. And since a lot of classes with abilities that benefit strikers are 3/4 BAB classes (Swordsage, Rogue, Totemist...) this is not all that uncommon.

[Madcrafter]

I suppose, but looking at his party comp so far, it seems likely that situation would apply almost exclusively to the rogue.

[Cog]

The capstone is also good for strikers who have dipped with 3/4 BAB classes several times...
Fractional BAB is a pretty elegant solution for that problem, too. :smallbiggrin: It seems kind of silly to me to spend class levels on getting around rounding errors in the system.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Fractional BAB is a pretty elegant solution for that problem, too. :smallbiggrin: It seems kind of silly to me to spend class levels on getting around rounding errors in the system.

It's at least a RAW solution, rather than a homebrew rule (albeit one that makes a lot of sense)

But yea, Song of Legion works best in tandem with lots of low-level mooks and disposable minions to turn speedbumps into cruise missiles.

[Cog]

It's at least a RAW solution, rather than a homebrew rule (albeit one that makes a lot of sense)
Fractional BAB isn't homebrew in the least. It's an official variant from Unearthed Arcana.

[Big Fau]

Try to get your DM to house rule Song of the White Raven to stack PrC levels, so you can go Bard 4/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Crusader or Bard 4.


Or Bard 4/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5 (staggering levels of JPM and AC so you get 9th level maneuvers and 6th level Bard spells). You lose out on some Bardic Music advancement, but what you get makes up for it.

[Tavar]

I don't think the DM would go for that.

Now, Assuming I'm going Bard/Warblade, what should my stat spread be? And what Race? I'm thinking one of the Draconic ones from Races of the Dragon, maybe Silverbrow Humans. I have 28 points left over, so I was thinking of something like... Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 10. But that seems pretty spread out...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't think the DM would go for that.

Now, Assuming I'm going Bard/Warblade, what should my stat spread be? And what Race? I'm thinking one of the Draconic ones from Races of the Dragon, maybe Silverbrow Humans. I have 28 points left over, so I was thinking of something like... Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 10. But that seems pretty spread out...

You need Charisma of at least 11 to cast 1st level Bard spells. Dump Wisdom, it's least useful to you.

[Tavar]

You need Charisma of at least 11 to cast 1st level Bard spells. Dump Wisdom, it's least useful to you.

Divine bard. That way, I can actually wear armor. Unless... does Inspirational Boost have Somatic components? Or I guess I could always spring for Battle caster, or whatever that feat in complete arcane is called.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Divine bard. That way, I can actually wear armor. Unless... does Inspirational Boost have Somatic components? Or I guess I could always spring for Battle caster, or whatever that feat in complete arcane is called.

Bards can cast in light armor without ASF anyways, and you don't want to be in more than light armor at any rate.

[Big Fau]

Bards can cast in light armor without ASF anyways, and you don't want to be in more than light armor at any rate.

And I believe that Bards have the most spells with only a Verbal component, which means ASF doesn't apply to those spells.

[Tavar]

Bards can cast in light armor without ASF anyways, and you don't want to be in more than light armor at any rate.

Why wouldn't I? Warblades are proficient in Medium, after all.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why wouldn't I? Warblades are proficient in Medium, after all.

Because there is zero tactical advantage in doing so.

Mithral Breastplate is considered to be Light armor, has a +5 defense, a max dex adjustment of +5, and an armor check penalty of -2.

Mithral Chain Shirt, on the other hand, has a +4 armor bonus, max des bonus of +6, and an ACP of 0.

Both are light armor.

Why would you need anything else?

[Keld Denar]

A lot of things don't really work with Bardblades. Snowflake Wardance is one of them. In theory, it looks like a good plan, but fails on this build for a couple of reasons. One, Bardblades are actually not Cha dependant. You need an 11 Cha to cast Insp Boost, the only spell you really need. MAXIMUM Cha you need is 14, which gives you a bonus 2nd level spell, assuming you are going Bard4/Warblade16 which gives you a WHOLE 1 2nd level spell/day. You should be putting the higher stats in Str, Con, and Dex, probably in that order unless you are TWFing.

Second, songs. You only get 3-4 songs/day, assuming you stick to one of the standard Bard3-4/Warblade17-16 builds. Sure, you could take Extra Music, but that costs ANOTHER feat, which I'll get to in a second.

Third, feats. You need a decent amount of feats just to bring this trick online, and you need a TON of feats to bring it up to maximum operating pressure. Dragonfire Inspiration, Songs of the Heart, and Song of the White Raven are a minimum of feats you need to really get going. Thats all your feats for the first 6 levels, unless you are human or get flaws. Then, if you want to make the most out of DFI, you should switch from fire to sonic by taking 2 more feats (Dragontouched + Draconic Heritage). If you want to increase your attacks/round to apply that damage more often, theres TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and possibly Imp UAS + Snap Kick. If you then want to do the SFWD thing, it's another 2 feats (Extra Music + SFWD). And thats neglecting general feats that are just nice to have like Improved Initiative or Quick Recovery.

Its just too much to do all on one character, and of the options, SFWD is not a good choice. Likewise, Crystal Ecoblades are generally not worth the cash spent on them for a Bardblade, since you only have 3-4 actual Bard levels.

[Tavar]

Because there is zero tactical advantage in doing so.

Mithral Breastplate is considered to be Light armor, has a +5 defense, a max dex adjustment of +5, and an armor check penalty of -2.

Mithral Chain Shirt, on the other hand, has a +4 armor bonus, max des bonus of +6, and an ACP of 0.

Both are light armor.

Why would you need anything else?

Because we're starting with a pretty low point buy, so having to raise my Dex in addition to my Str and Con becomes prohibitably expensive fast, plus the fact that if I use mithral Full plate, it gives +9 instead of 5. I'd have to get an 18 in Dex before the difference was made up.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Because we're starting with a pretty low point buy, so having to raise my Dex in addition to my Str and Con becomes prohibitably expensive fast, plus the fact that if I use mithral Full plate, it gives +9 instead of 5. I'd have to get an 18 in Dex before the difference was made up.

+8, not a +9. So a difference of 3. Ever heard of Gloves of Dexterity?

Also, ever heard of -6 Armor Check Penalty?

[Tavar]

The plus 6 gloves are very, very expensive, though. And instead of getting those I could just spend money, on, I don't know, maybe an animated shield, or a good weapon. Or on some of those nice little trinkets that'll help keep me alive.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The plus 6 gloves are very, very expensive, though. And instead of getting those I could just spend money, on, I don't know, maybe an animated shield, or a good weapon. Or on some of those nice little trinkets that'll help keep me alive.

Because Dex gives you not only AC, but also Reflex, attack with ranged weapons (or melee if you're using weapon finesse), and several other things. Plus being effective against touch attacks, wheras armor is not. And, if you're going Warblade, you've got Uncanny Dodge, so you never lose it.