L5R "Wasp" question.

[lrellok]

Having read both 2nd and 3rd edition core rules and supplements, i am confused on one point. I have been playing a Tsuruchi archer as close to story as possible, eschewing nearly all blade related skills in favor of archery and ranged attacks. However, the issue of challenges is a serious problem. Since it would massively break story, i do not have any ranks in Iiajutsu. This effectively makes it totally impossible to defend my honor, as i will invariably loose to even the most novice sword wielder. What rules would you suggest for a duel of non sword wielders vs sword wielders? (or for any two opponents who wield different attack styles)

[LibraryOgre]

The fact of the matter is, Wasp usually lose duels of honor, because they don't have the skills to do them well (or the honor, but what can you expect from the Mantis?)*.

Personally, I'd suggest putting a single point into Kenjutsu and Iajutsu... while you don't use them often, the 2 XP will help a LOT in terms of honor duels.



*For some reason, every L5R question turns me into the most pig-headed Crab imaginable, and frequently with that special, Yasuki charm. However, that particular barb is partially borne out by the L5R Wiki, which says that Tsuruchi (http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Tsuruchi_family) family precepts of honor differ somewhat from Bushido.

[The Big Dice]

There's a story about a Lion who challenged Tsuruchi to a duel. Either in Way of the Mantis or the SHADIS magazine the Wasp first appeared in.

Anyway, this Lion calls Turuchi out. So Tsuruchi (Rights of the Challenged still hold in 2nd ed and even in 3rd) says they should stand 20 paces apart and each have their favoured weapon in hand. The Lion reluctantly agreed, being a man of honour.

At the appointed time and place, the duel begins. The Lion draws his sword and runs towards the Wasp. Quick as a flash, Tsuruchi puts an arrow in each foot and another in the Lion's hands.

All the Lion could say was, "That's what honour gets you. Nailed to the floor with an arrow in your hand."

In other words, as long as you're the one being challenged, you have the advantage. There are ways to manipulate the situation of you do call the other guy out, but on the whole it's better to be challenged when you're a Wasp.

[LibraryOgre]

In other words, as long as you're the one being challenged, you have the advantage. There are ways to manipulate the situation of you do call the other guy out, but on the whole it's better to be challenged when you're a Wasp.

The moral of the story is: If someone offends you, be offensive to them, so they challenge. ;-)

[The Big Dice]

The moral of the story is: If someone offends you, be offensive to them, so they challenge. ;-)
I've seen people going back and forth trading insults for quite some time in L5R. It was fun. 3rd ed revised has a mechanic to try and resolve the situation, though.

When a challenge is issued, both parties make a contested social skill roll. The actual skill can vary, depending on the situation and how the challenge is phrased and so on. But the person being challenged gets two Free Raises on the roll.

[Extra_Crispy]

It also depends on the duel. If it is a non-lethal duel, ya make sure you are the one challanged and then you can literally name the duel. There have been duels played with Go, by tests of skill, etc. Many times that is how duels are fought between non-bushi samari.

If it is to the death, or even first blood with swords, then if you carry a sword you are expected to be able to use it period. If you dont, like the wasp, or courtiers, then you get to name a champion. If the duel is to the death then that can take months or years to actually get to the duel because your life is not your own to throw away and neither is the other guys. If they want to duel you to the death they have to ask there master for permission to make the challange, then he/his master has to inform your master of the challange and request the duel. If all is agreed upon then as a non sword wearing bushi you can name a champion. So make friends with that Crane Iajutsu master, just remember that if he/she loses you will be expected to commit sepeku.

[Tehnar]

From what I remember Tsuruchi Archers don't start with a katana as apart of their kit.

I thought, or at least they explain it so in 4th edition, that not having a katana means you are not trained in combat and are not expected to fight duels (rather you can pick someone to champion you). Be friends with a Crane and problem solved.

[The Big Dice]

From what I remember Tsuruchi Archers don't start with a katana as apart of their kit.

I thought, or at least they explain it so in 4th edition, that not having a katana means you are not trained in combat and are not expected to fight duels (rather you can pick someone to champion you). Be friends with a Crane and problem solved.

That's the wuss out answer. Originally, Wasp clan members were recruited by Tsuruchi hosting a tournament every year. And if you joined, part of the fealty ceremony was breaking your katana underfoot on the same rock that Tsuruchi broke his.

Sadly, L5R has been in a steady process of making everything less and less awesome as time goes by.

[Tehnar]

Wow, I didn't know that. That does sound so much cooler.

[Sir Swindle89]

That's the wuss out answer. Originally, Wasp clan members were recruited by Tsuruchi hosting a tournament every year. And if you joined, part of the fealty ceremony was breaking your katana underfoot on the same rock that Tsuruchi broke his.

Sadly, L5R has been in a steady process of making everything less and less awesome as time goes by.

Yes the original ancestral Katana's were snapped underfoot. So none got passed down. So no one carries them. So challenging a wasp archer is the same (socially) as challenging a courtier.

So therefore the answer is to use a champion to fight the duel.

[The Big Dice]

Yes the original ancestral Katana's were snapped underfoot. So none got passed down. So no one carries them. So challenging a wasp archer is the same (socially) as challenging a courtier.

So therefore the answer is to use a champion to fight the duel.

Are you accusing a Tsuruchi of not being a bushi? It sounds llike you are. That's a good way to get yourself challenged to a duel. And considering the low Honour of the Tsuruchi, he's not going to care for your prissy iaijutsu. Fight like a warrior with your favourite weapon in hand, or retract your words.

That's the answer when someone insults a Tsuruchi. Threaten to fight them with your favourite weapon and watch them cower.

[LibraryOgre]

Are you accusing a Tsuruchi of not being a bushi? It sounds llike you are. That's a good way to get yourself challenged to a duel. And considering the low Honour of the Tsuruchi, he's not going to care for your prissy iaijutsu. Fight like a warrior with your favourite weapon in hand, or retract your words.

That's the answer when someone insults a Tsuruchi. Threaten to fight them with your favourite weapon and watch them cower.

This is REALLY why the Rokugani need to invest in shields.

EDIT: It's also worth noting, as BD alludes to: The Wasp hang on to their clan status by the tips of their fingernails. While a Tsuruchi can wail and scream, the greater clans can more or less just say "Screw you, you're not worth my attention." And then proceed to ignore them. While they aren't QUITE at the point where they can be killed out of hand, it is perfectly acceptable for a Crane or Lion to say "What do you expect? He's only a Wasp" and continue to slight the Tsuruchi's honor until they play by the rules.

In short, the Tsuruchi like to play Belkar; they can act affronted and refuse to play by the rules of the game. But most of Rokugani society can ignore them, because they have the power to do so.

[horngeek]

Aren't they part of the Mantis now? :smallconfused:

[The Big Dice]

Aren't they part of the Mantis now? :smallconfused:

They are, but the Mantis and Phoenix have been to war over whether or not the proper paperwork got filed when the Mantis got promoted to Great Clan status. And although the canon storyline doesn't go into it, I wouldn't be surprised if the more traditionalist clans (read Lion, Crane, Phoenix) felt the Mantis were uncouth upstarts.

And with the Tsuruchi, considering they were founded by a man that both the Lion and Scorpion saw as a dangerous renegade, plus their lack of respect for the cult of the sword, there's all sorts of story and character possibility.

[LibraryOgre]

They are, but the Mantis and Phoenix have been to war over whether or not the proper paperwork got filed when the Mantis got promoted to Great Clan status. And although the canon storyline doesn't go into it, I wouldn't be surprised if the more traditionalist clans (read Lion, Crane, Phoenix) felt the Mantis were uncouth upstarts.

And with the Tsuruchi, considering they were founded by a man that both the Lion and Scorpion saw as a dangerous renegade, plus their lack of respect for the cult of the sword, there's all sorts of story and character possibility.

It's not just the cult of the sword... it's that they made a conscious rejection of their ancestors. In breaking their katana, they threw away their ancestors. One could question if they are, indeed, samurai at all, given that they have no ancestors.

[The Big Dice]

It's not just the cult of the sword... it's that they made a conscious rejection of their ancestors. In breaking their katana, they threw away their ancestors. One could question if they are, indeed, samurai at all, given that they have no ancestors.
Not only do they not have any ancestors, but somehow they went to India (the Ivory Kingdoms seem very Indian influenced) and came home with a Welsh longbow! And it didn't rot away in a hot, humid climate.

BUt there are a ton of hooks and ideas surrounding the Tsuruchi. And anyone exploring ways to turn the Mantis from the Mary Sue clan back into the underdog is going to get my full support :smallsmile:

[LibraryOgre]

Not only do they not have any ancestors, but somehow they went to India (the Ivory Kingdoms seem very Indian influenced) and came home with a Welsh longbow! And it didn't rot away in a hot, humid climate.

BUt there are a ton of hooks and ideas surrounding the Tsuruchi. And anyone exploring ways to turn the Mantis from the Mary Sue clan back into the underdog is going to get my full support :smallsmile:

My current DMs (a couple) both hate the Mantis clan. Don't mind the Tsuruchi or most of the families in the Mantis, but they really hate the Mantis. We don't even play when the Mantis is a major clan.

I think the motivation for putting the Mantis into major clan status comes from a more egalitarian urge than is really appropriate for L5R... the idea that you don't need ancestors to be important is somewhat negated when people have actual deities in their background.

[Tehnar]

I don't think Wasp bushi are any worse off then other Mantis bushi in court. Though I am new to the system, so if someone could provide additional fluff I would appreciate it.

Mechanically they seem to make best bushi for court (at least from the low honor clans), since they want high reflexes so might as well take awareness as well.

[hiryuu]

I think the motivation for putting the Mantis into major clan status comes from a more egalitarian urge than is really appropriate for L5R... the idea that you don't need ancestors to be important is somewhat negated when people have actual deities in their background.

That's what you get when you put a whole clan out to sea and stop paying attention to it. It gets ideas and can build a power base without you noticing. Then it comes back and can run with the big dogs. Because none of the big dogs went to go check. I think it would work a lesson for the rest of the clans... watch your nearby minor clans. We don't want a repeat of the... bug incident.

[The Big Dice]

That's what you get when you put a whole clan out to sea and stop paying attention to it. It gets ideas and can build a power base without you noticing. Then it comes back and can run with the big dogs. Because none of the big dogs went to go check. I think it would work a lesson for the rest of the clans... watch your nearby minor clans. We don't want a repeat of the... bug incident.

Actually, it's what happens when you put major story developments in the hands of people playing a competitive CCG. Like Toturi becoming Emperor, the Mantis became a great clan because of something that happened at the Day of Thunder tournament at GenCon.

The original idea of the Mantis as mercenaries, which later developed into them being descended from Hida by way of Osano-Wo and his Matsu bride, was cool. Then came the third writing team and the Mary Sue Clan shifted away from the Scorpion where it was originally, off the Crane and on to the Mantis.

All of a sudden, the Mantis are gobbling up minor clans left and right. They have more shugenja than the Phoenix, with no less than three families of them. And they won a war against them. It all got very silly and I can honestly say I dislike the Mantis intensely.

[hiryuu]

Actually, it's what happens when you put major story developments in the hands of people playing a competitive CCG. Like Toturi becoming Emperor, the Mantis became a great clan because of something that happened at the Day of Thunder tournament at GenCon.

I'm aware.


The original idea of the Mantis as mercenaries, which later developed into them being descended from Hida by way of Osano-Wo and his Matsu bride, was cool. Then came the third writing team and the Mary Sue Clan shifted away from the Scorpion where it was originally, off the Crane and on to the Mantis.

All of a sudden, the Mantis are gobbling up minor clans left and right. They have more shugenja than the Phoenix, with no less than three families of them. And they won a war against them. It all got very silly and I can honestly say I dislike the Mantis intensely.

This always confused me about the setting, the go over and over about how rare Shugenja are and then they put them on the battlefield. Always seemed like a wasted resource. Especially with the spell per day limits. Then again, every time I look at an NPC's stats I feel like I'm back in the Forgotten Realms again.

[LibraryOgre]

Actually, it's what happens when you put major story developments in the hands of people playing a competitive CCG. Like Toturi becoming Emperor, the Mantis became a great clan because of something that happened at the Day of Thunder tournament at GenCon.

Much like the stupid "The entire Crab Clan is tainted" that came about because of a gorram t-shirt. grrrrrrr


The original idea of the Mantis as mercenaries, which later developed into them being descended from Hida by way of Osano-Wo and his Matsu bride, was cool. Then came the third writing team and the Mary Sue Clan shifted away from the Scorpion where it was originally, off the Crane and on to the Mantis.

Ahhh, the Scorpion. An entire clan of large-breasted Asian women.

Seriously, what were the artists thinking? You can ALMOST buy that in the Unicorn, but if someone had to have cleavage, chances are she was in Scorpion colors.

FWIW, I'm actually looking at playing something other than a Crab in our coming game. But that's because I couldn't see Yamada Aesamon as a Crab, but he works real well as an Akodo.

[horngeek]

The Crane are probably my favorite clan (although I'd play a Crane who went against the typical arrogance), but I'd probably be a Dragon.

...funny how that works. The Dragon are my second-favorite, but still.

And I like the Mantis concept, but I do dislike the favoring of them over other clans.

[The Big Dice]

And I like the Mantis concept, but I do dislike the favoring of them over other clans.
Unfortunately, the Mantis don't really have a concept anymore. The Yoritomo are mercenary pirates, complete with bullying courtiers and shugenja that are more powerful than the Isawa. The Kitsune used to be the Fox. The Tsuruchi are angry archer bounty hunters. The Moshi used to be the Centipede.

Three shugenja families is more than the Dragon, who are supposedly a strongly magical clan has. And they are more mercantile than the Crane or Crab.

Seriously, what is the Mantis schick supposed to be? Magic? Trade? Mercenary antics? Politics? It's a mess.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Ahhh, the Scorpion. An entire clan of large-breasted Asian women.

Seriously, what were the artists thinking? You can ALMOST buy that in the Unicorn, but if someone had to have cleavage, chances are she was in Scorpion colors.

Are you talking about excessive cleavage (Scorpion ladies are known for seducing people) or excessive...measurements?

[LibraryOgre]

Are you talking about excessive cleavage (Scorpion ladies are known for seducing people) or excessive...measurements?

Measurements, mostly. The art was not subtle.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Measurements, mostly. The art was not subtle.

Eh. Maybe the artists thought the fans would enjoy the eye candy and gave the bigger measurements to the characters who have an in-character reason to flaunt it. All that armor and formal robes don't give much chance for, dare I say it, fanservice.

Certainly, I've read nothing in the fluff that would suggest the Scorpions have a selective breeding program or magic enhancement herbs. Though I wouldn't be surprised by it.

Minor nitpick: Scorpions are Rokugani, not Asian.

[LibraryOgre]

Minor nitpick: Scorpions are Rokugani, not Asian.

I consider the difference to be purely semantic. It's like arguing that the Northmen in FR aren't Scandinavians. Technically, they are not... they're not from Scandinavia. But when it looks like them, sounds like them, and walks like them, it's near enough so as to make no difference.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I consider the difference to be purely semantic. It's like arguing that the Northmen in FR aren't Scandinavians. Technically, they are not... they're not from Scandinavia. But when it looks like them, sounds like them, and walks like them, it's near enough so as to make no difference.

Actually, Asia covers a wide range of geographical and cultural differences. L5R is mostly medieval Japan (hard to miss) with small bits of other Asian stuff added in, plus a boat load of mythic elements.

[LibraryOgre]

Actually, Asia covers a wide range of geographical and cultural differences. L5R is mostly medieval Japan (hard to miss) with small bits of other Asian stuff added in, plus a boat load of mythic elements.

And Japanese are Asians. I don't think generalizing Rokugani to being Asians is terribly inaccurate, since that's what they're obviously shooting for.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

And Japanese are Asians. I don't think generalizing Rokugani to being Asians is terribly inaccurate, since that's what they're obviously shooting for.

Yeah, sorry. I always get a little iffy when people equate Asia to a single country or ethnic group even though that's not actually what you did.

What can I say. Physical attributes have a wide variance among a population as wide as Rokugan's. I'm not going to touch the whole ethnicity-body type question. Other than the reasons I gave two posts back (fanservice and supernatural intervention), it's possible that Scorpions are just like that. Crane have the white hair thing, Crabs are big sized, etc.

[LibraryOgre]

Yeah, sorry. I always get a little iffy when people equate Asia to a single country or ethnic group even though that's not actually what you did.

What can I say. Physical attributes have a wide variance among a population as wide as Rokugan's. I'm not going to touch the whole ethnicity-body type question. Other than the reasons I gave two posts back (fanservice and supernatural intervention), it's possible that Scorpions are just like that. Crane have the white hair thing, Crabs are big sized, etc.

True. I suppose it's just a bit less incongruous... though I've watched enough anime that it shouldn't be.

[The Big Dice]

Yeah, sorry. I always get a little iffy when people equate Asia to a single country or ethnic group even though that's not actually what you did.

What can I say. Physical attributes have a wide variance among a population as wide as Rokugan's. I'm not going to touch the whole ethnicity-body type question. Other than the reasons I gave two posts back (fanservice and supernatural intervention), it's possible that Scorpions are just like that. Crane have the white hair thing, Crabs are big sized, etc.
Cranes die their hair. In honour of someone who was Shadowlands Tainted, if you believe what Bearers of Jade says. Crabs are big because a thousand years of breeding for Maori will eventually give you Jonah Lomu. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_Lomu).

The thing that bugs me with Rokugan is the clans-as-nations attitude you see. Like, sure people in one place might have a different accent or dress a little differently. But each clan gets treated as an ethic group all its own. And that just annoys me. It's one country and everyone has a Crane in the family somwehere.

[LibraryOgre]

Cranes die their hair. In honour of someone who was Shadowlands Tainted, if you believe what Bearers of Jade says. Crabs are big because a thousand years of breeding for Maori will eventually give you Jonah Lomu. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_Lomu).

The thing that bugs me with Rokugan is the clans-as-nations attitude you see. Like, sure people in one place might have a different accent or dress a little differently. But each clan gets treated as an ethic group all its own. And that just annoys me. It's one country and everyone has a Crane in the family somwehere.

I tend to emphasize that in my backgrounds... most marriages are out-clan for my PCs, or, at least, their parents. So you wind up with my Yasuki, whose mother was a Scorpion. She hated his putatively Crab father, but he was actually fathered by a Crane.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Cranes die their hair. In honour of someone who was Shadowlands Tainted, if you believe what Bearers of Jade says. Crabs are big because a thousand years of breeding for Maori will eventually give you Jonah Lomu. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_Lomu).

The thing that bugs me with Rokugan is the clans-as-nations attitude you see. Like, sure people in one place might have a different accent or dress a little differently. But each clan gets treated as an ethic group all its own. And that just annoys me. It's one country and everyone has a Crane in the family somwehere.

Looks like you're right about the Crane hair thing, I thought it was natural.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by clans-as-nations attitude.

[The Big Dice]

Looks like you're right about the Crane hair thing, I thought it was natural.
Lions dye their hair red, too. Supposedly to honour the Kitsu that they drove to the edgeof extinction and then had babies with. LIke the bloodlines of Otaku steeds, there are some things you're better off not thinking about in L5R.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by clans-as-nations attitude.
I mean each clan has extensive and unique customs, superstitions and traditions. Clans, and sometimes families in a clan, have distinctive features and body types. This being despite those same families being made up mostly of adoptees rather than blood relatives.

Differences in fashion and accent I can accept. But differences in skin tone, hair, eye colour and body shape can appear almost immediately in Rokugan. See the Tamori for evidence of this. It's a stupid thing, but it bugs me. In a land where the norm is to marry outside your immediate area for political and social improvement, there's no reason for people to be so different in different regions.

[LibraryOgre]

Lions dye their hair red, too. Supposedly to honour the Kitsu that they drove to the edgeof extinction and then had babies with. LIke the bloodlines of Otaku steeds, there are some things you're better off not thinking about in L5R.

3e revised says that some of that may be natural, especially within the Kitsu family.


I mean each clan has extensive and unique customs, superstitions and traditions. Clans, and sometimes families in a clan, have distinctive features and body types. This being despite those same families being made up mostly of adoptees rather than blood relatives.

Differences in fashion and accent I can accept. But differences in skin tone, hair, eye colour and body shape can appear almost immediately in Rokugan. See the Tamori for evidence of this. It's a stupid thing, but it bugs me. In a land where the norm is to marry outside your immediate area for political and social improvement, there's no reason for people to be so different in different regions.

Perhaps we go back to Haruspex's suggestion that this conformity is, to some extent, enforced by the Kami? By becoming part of the Crab clan... by accepting that you are part of it, rather than thinking yourself a Scorpion exiled-by-marriage to live amongst them... the spirit of Hida begins to work on you, turning you into MORE of a Crab?

[The Big Dice]

3e revised says that some of that may be natural, especially within the Kitsu family.
Ahhh, the Kitsu. Gone from most-awesome-but-mechanically-weakest shugenja school to MIGHTY MASTERS OF BATTLE MAGIC! To Sodan-Senzo thing was truly original and inspired. And in 3rd ed it was a masterstroke having Ancestor Channellers that could custom design Ancestors that they'd channel. And now they get a buff on spells with the Battle keyword.

Oh, how the cool have fallen into mediocrity.

Perhaps we go back to Haruspex's suggestion that this conformity is, to some extent, enforced by the Kami? By becoming part of the Crab clan... by accepting that you are part of it, rather than thinking yourself a Scorpion exiled-by-marriage to live amongst them... the spirit of Hida begins to work on you, turning you into MORE of a Crab?
Well, they do say, "once a Scorpion, always a Scorpion."

I don't have a problem with the way Trait bonuses are handled between family and school. And you could use some supernatural justification to explain it. But then, Hantei III was supposed to have been the last of the truly Divine Emperors. Since then, his descendants were strictly human. At least up until the Evil Mary Sue they call Daigotsu came along.

I'm kinda old fashioned with L5R. Unfashinably so compared to some. I prefer the more human, everything in shades of grey take on things in 1st ed over the big technicolour showboating of later editions. A kami did it doesn't really work for me.

It's like, for a thousand years, Rokugan had clan champions who were descended more or less directly from the Kami and family founders. And then in the last 50 years, it's been all over the place. And the champions have to be (literally in some cases) on a different power scale from the kind of thing any PC is likely to achieve.

To me, it's the difference between this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYbi7gKKvOo) and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWtTnXloWgg).

[LibraryOgre]

Now you understand why grognards get grumpy at these new-fangled editions of "D&D". ;-)

[Geddoe]

Since then, his descendants were strictly human. At least up until the Evil Mary Sue they call Daigotsu came along.


I so wish he would get his comeuppance, but it seems like he will be kept around forever.

[LibraryOgre]

I so wish he would get his comeuppance, but it seems like he will be kept around forever.

They feel the need for a defined "bad guy", apparently.

[The Big Dice]

They feel the need for a defined "bad guy", apparently.
But instead of a defined bad guy, they got the samurai game equivalent of Doctor Evil, cackling and rubbing his hands together. And the Spider clan seem like a missed opportunity to me. They could have been a great bad guy faction, but instead the story team pushed them in everyone's faces.

[LibraryOgre]

But instead of a defined bad guy, they got the samurai game equivalent of Doctor Evil, cackling and rubbing his hands together. And the Spider clan seem like a missed opportunity to me. They could have been a great bad guy faction, but instead the story team pushed them in everyone's faces.

A few years ago, I ran a d20 L5R game, and actually included someone trying to start a Spider Clan, using ronin and an idiot Phoenix he seduced away from her Lion betrothed.

[Areswargod139]

A few years ago, I ran a d20 L5R game, and actually included someone trying to start a Spider Clan, using ronin and an idiot Phoenix he seduced away from her Lion betrothed.
You're the first person I've heard about using d20? Any good? Any tips for revision? Comments? Suggestions? Random Itches? :smallbiggrin:

[LibraryOgre]

You're the first person I've heard about using d20? Any good? Any tips for revision? Comments? Suggestions? Random Itches? :smallbiggrin:

We only played a couple sessions, and it was years ago. Didn't get much of a feel for it, though I'd say it had the same "D&D in Kurosawa drag" feel that original OA had. It also didn't help that we didn't have the OA book, just L5R campaign book.

[themaque]

It's like, for a thousand years, Rokugan had clan champions who were descended more or less directly from the Kami and family founders. And then in the last 50 years, it's been all over the place. And the champions have to be (literally in some cases) on a different power scale from the kind of thing any PC is likely to achieve.


That goes back to a campaign world being controlled by CCG tournaments. Each new edition of the game has to be bigger, better, and for more dire stakes. I heard rumors that they where going to make the Spider an official clan and drop dragon is the Spider on the tournament.

I like Spider as a Concept but anyone talking about them like they where a REAL clan is just deluding themselves.

We run pre-scorpion coupe

[Haruspex_Pariah]

That goes back to a campaign world being controlled by CCG tournaments. Each new edition of the game has to be bigger, better, and for more dire stakes. I heard rumors that they where going to make the Spider an official clan and drop dragon is the Spider on the tournament.

I like Spider as a Concept but anyone talking about them like they where a REAL clan is just deluding themselves.

We run pre-scorpion coupe

I think it's accepted that any long-running RPG campaign will have to split from the canon storyline eventually.

On a related note, it always bothered me that Toturi snagged the throne instead of one of the Imperial Family members. How'd that happen again?

[horngeek]

I think it's accepted that any long-running RPG campaign will have to split from the canon storyline eventually.

On a related note, it always bothered me that Toturi snagged the throne instead of one of the Imperial Family members. How'd that happen again?

Luck, right place right time, and doing the right stuff? :smallconfused:

I like the current CCG event (Destroyer War) right now, though. I'd actually love to play a game based on the idea of a foreign invasion of Rokugan.

[The Big Dice]

I think it's accepted that any long-running RPG campaign will have to split from the canon storyline eventually.

On a related note, it always bothered me that Toturi snagged the throne instead of one of the Imperial Family members. How'd that happen again?
Lion won the Day of Thunder. Imperials weren't even a consideration for the throne.

What bothered me more than Toturi becoming emperor was the Hidden Emperor storyline. Which started with a mysterious, barely known cosmic horror kidnapping the highest profile person in the land as it's opening move in a plan to unmake the universe.

I mean, come on!

[LibraryOgre]

So, we played a bit of L5R last night, then sat around and shot the **** about that, before derailing into talking about awesome (and not so awesome) Vampire games we've been part of.

Someone at the table came up with a good suggestion for the L5R developers... one that makes sense, and keeps the game world from getting bogged down in CCG stuff. Simply put, each new CCG issue should be set about 50-100 years after the last one. This lets them weed out cards from previous editions ("this person is no longer around"), and keeps that one chunk of time from being horribly littered with Major Events.

[The Big Dice]

So, we played a bit of L5R last night, then sat around and shot the **** about that, before derailing into talking about awesome (and not so awesome) Vampire games we've been part of.

Someone at the table came up with a good suggestion for the L5R developers... one that makes sense, and keeps the game world from getting bogged down in CCG stuff. Simply put, each new CCG issue should be set about 50-100 years after the last one. This lets them weed out cards from previous editions ("this person is no longer around"), and keeps that one chunk of time from being horribly littered with Major Events.
They used to do that. When 1st ed came out, the Day of Thunder was on the horizon and adverts for the Scorpion Clan Coup expansion were already appearing. But the RPG was set a vague "about five years before the events of the CCG." And the fact that the calendar worked on the number of years the current Emperor had been on the throne made the separation of the two games easier.

Now, with hard dates, that's much more difficult for them. Now they've sort of but not really divorced the RPG from the CCG timeline. I don't know about the other couple of books out for 4th ed, but the core rulebook doesn't realyl do a good job of separating things. It's like they wanted to slaughter some sacred cows, but weren't really sure which ones and didn't go about it with quite as much gusto as they could.

[Pilum]

Not only do they not have any ancestors, but somehow they went to India (the Ivory Kingdoms seem very Indian influenced) and came home with a Welsh longbow! And it didn't rot away in a hot, humid climate.

Sorry to drag the discussion back a few days and down a tangent, but for info, India did actually have the longbow itself, and before there even was a Wales. Made of bamboo usually. There's some debate as to whether it was actually as powerful as the later weapon but certainly someone put a 2-cubit arrow (either 28" or 36" depending on how one defines a cubit) through Alexander the Great's metal breastplate with one.

Apologies if this is teaching anyone to suck eggs, or even mentioned in the modern L5R books; I've not read anything for the system since... well, a very long time, let's say :smallsmile:!

[horngeek]

Actually, my major problem with the system is...

it's really, really hard to actually get to play. ;_;

[Swooper]

Which started with a mysterious, barely known cosmic horror kidnapping the highest profile person in the land as it's opening move in a plan to unmake the universe.

I mean, come on!
Seems oddly familiar (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Return_of_the_Scarlet_Empress) when you put it like that...

[The Big Dice]

Sorry to drag the discussion back a few days and down a tangent, but for info, India did actually have the longbow itself, and before there even was a Wales. Made of bamboo usually. There's some debate as to whether it was actually as powerful as the later weapon but certainly someone put a 2-cubit arrow (either 28" or 36" depending on how one defines a cubit) through Alexander the Great's metal breastplate with one.

Apologies if this is teaching anyone to suck eggs, or even mentioned in the modern L5R books; I've not read anything for the system since... well, a very long time, let's say :smallsmile:!
To be fair, people have been living in Wales for some 10,000 years and the bow has been around for about 40,000 years.

As far as I can tell, the Indian longbow was, like most Asian bows, a laminate construction. What D&D calls a composite bow. Layers of flexible and stiff material glued together. Usually some kind of wood and either bone or horn, though there are regional differences.

The Welsh (or English) longbow was slightly different. It's a design that has been around since the second, post ice age, wave of British colonisation and it's made from a single piece of wood. There was some development of the design, but the basics of a six or so foot long pole giving a draw somewhere between 70 and 140 lbs remains constant.

Of course, the D20 Tsuruchi also used a bow that had a chain instead of a string, which always struck me as a good way to lose some fingers...

[Sir Swindle89]

India did actually have the longbow itself, and before there even was a Wales.

I would like to point out that there is neither a Whales nor an India in Rokugan.

[The Glyphstone]

I would like to point out that there is neither a Whales nor an India in Rokugan.

:miko: "What is this 'Japan' you speak of?":smallsmile:

[horngeek]

Miko would be so stuffed in Rokugan. :smallbiggrin:

{{Why don't we just re-make this as the L5R Discussion thread? :smalltongue:}}

Also, there isn't a Whales in the British Isles. It's Wales./nitpick

[The Big Dice]

Also, there isn't a Whales in the British Isles. It's Wales./nitpick
It's true. And I should know because I'm in Wales. Not Whales, because that would just be silly. Everyone knows whales don't bother with the internet. It's because flippers are too big to plug in the power leads to the router.

[LibraryOgre]

I would like to point out that there is neither a Whales nor an India in Rokugan.

"A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet..." -Shakespeare

"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, chances are, it's a duck." - Traditional

The Rokugani aren't Japanese, but if you took a Rokugani peasant and dropped him in medieval Japan, he'd think "Gee, these people have funny accents" and "Wow, this empire is really small." Then he'd go on with his life, more or less unchanged.

[horngeek]

He'd also go 'hey, where are the shugenja?' :smalltongue:

The biggest difference between medieval Japan and Rokugan, apart from the fantasy elements, is that the Emperor's power in Rokugan is a lot less symbolic.

[Sir Swindle89]

The Rokugani aren't Japanese, but if you took a Rokugani peasant and dropped him in medieval Japan, he'd think "Gee, these people have funny accents" and "Wow, this empire is really small." Then he'd go on with his life, more or less unchanged.

But they were nit picking specific historical elements and technological advances (probably developed due to geographical elements). So the fact that they act japanese but live in an environment closer to china's is particularly relevent.

[Geddoe]

The Rokugani aren't Japanese, but if you took a Rokugani peasant and dropped him in medieval Japan, he'd think "Gee, these people have funny accents" and "Wow, this empire is really small." Then he'd go on with his life, more or less unchanged.

Well, I don't think he would comment on the Empire being small. The average peasant only really sees his village and the fields around it. They don't tend to move around much.

[Evil the Cat]

Wasp (now mantis) archers are still bushi, and as such, can be challenged to a duel. Dueling with any weapon other than a katana is considered somewhat dishonorable, and quite shameful. It can easily lead to loss of glory and status.

Before they joined the Mantis, the Wasp actually had more leeway. Members of the minor clans are under the protection of the emperor, and therefore, it can be very difficult to get permission to challenge one to a duel.

Now that they're part of the Mantis, they've lost that protection. On the plus side, the Mantis aren't overly concerned with people fighting duels "properly". You may take a hit to honor, glory, and status for using your bow in a duel, but the most of the Mantis will probably just laugh if you manage to shoot the guy. Any advantage you manage to gain against the guy in planning the duel will just make the Mantis laugh harder.

[Evil the Cat]

On a different note, the Kami do indeed shape the people to match their clan and family. There are even game mechanics supporting this. If part of your marriage involves you joining your spouse's family; you lose your family trait bonus, and gain their family trait bonus instead.