Gish Spells

[Rhaegar14]

Hello Playground. I quasi-recently put up a thread asking for advice for a JPM build starting from level 1. Despite the outcries of "Wizard!" I went with Sorcerer as an intentional handicap. My group is fairly inexperienced/low-op, and frankly between my decent (not good, decent) knowledge of what's out there, and my access to you people, I have a huge advantage over most of my party members and if I had gone with Wizard I would make the rest of them look like absolute chumps.

However, one of the main ramifications of the choice to play Sorcerer is that my spell selection is a lot more important. Thus, I present to you my list of planned spells for spell levels 1 to 3.

1st – Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Shield, Enlarge Person, Swift Expeditious Retreat (SpC), Benign Transposition (SpC) (Replace Mage Armor with Transposition after Greater Mage Armor is taken as 3rd level)
2nd – Fireburst (SpC), Burning Sword (SpC), Blur, Bull’s Strength, Wraithstrike (SpC)
3rd – Fireball, Greater Mage Armor (SpC), Vampiric Touch, Dragonskin (SpC), Steeldance (SpC)

My question to all of you: is there anything that's glaringly missing or glaringly bad on this list? Since the blast-y spells are probably going to get flamed, I'm going to offer the explanation that they're for a little versatility. If we get ambushed (so I can't cast all my enhancements before combat), or I cannot effectively fight in melee for one reason or another (matters a lot less later, but for these spell levels still comes into play), I can switch to good-old-fashioned blasting. Still, I would like a bit more party-friendly alternative to Fireburst, because most of our party prefers melee combat.

I have access to other sources, but I've more-or-less kept my perusals to PHB, SpC, PHB II, and Dragon Magic (not sure what the acronym for that one is).

[Dusk Eclipse]

I feel a disturbing lack of mirror image in this gish... (seriously it is a great Gish spell, one of the best defences in the game, upgrade it to greater mirror image when you can.

You also seem to lack Alter Self which is also a great defence/general utility (trogoldite form gets you like +6 nat armor, avariel gets you flight, etc).

As far as blasting goes I think the good ol' scorching ray might be a good option, it scales somewhat nicely in the first levels.

Another great general defence is wings of cover (RotD) which breaks line of sight and effect as an immediate action.

[Keld Denar]

Whirling Blade makes for a pretty good ranged attack alternative. It only goes 60', so its better in doors than outside, but thats not bad. Its also friendly fire-friendly, meaning that it only attacks targets YOU CHOOSE along the path. You can even fire it off in a crowded street and not worry about collateral damage. If you get a spellstoring weapon (which any smart gish would), you can also use it to deliver your spellstored spell at range. It also benefits from any martial feats you might have, like Power Attack or Arcane Strike, since it functions in all ways as a melee attack. Its also SR:No and has no save, just an attack roll (not touch though). Its in both Complete Arcane and reprinted in Spell Compendium, both versions are identical.

I'd take that and Fireball (for REALLY long range engagements) and leave it at that. Keep the rest of your spells open for more gishy things.

[Rhaegar14]

I feel a disturbing lack of mirror image in this gish... (seriously it is a great Gish spell, one of the best defences in the game, upgrade it to greater mirror image when you can.

You also seem to lack Alter Self which is also a great defence/general utility (trogoldite form gets you like +6 nat armor, avariel gets you flight, etc).

As far as blasting goes I think the good ol' scorching ray might be a good option, it scales somewhat nicely in the first levels.

Another great general defence is wings of cover (RotD) which breaks line of sight and effect as an immediate action.

1) Okay, will look into that.

2) I'm trying to milk efficiency out of the character without taking anything away from anyone (except perhaps the paladin). We have a bard and his only real combat ability is Alter Self (on an unrelated note, a couple solid forms I could recommend to him to give him some combat utility would be good). I run into a similar issue down the line with Polymorph next to the Arcane Hierophant (to be).

3) Took the Shaky flaw, so I'm trying to avoid spells that want ranged attack rolls.

4) Will look into this as well.

@Keld Denar: Where is Whirling Blade? Sounds familiar but can't come up with it off the top of my head. (Edit) Oh hey, it's totally in your post. Nice paying attention on my part. Also, dunno what a spellstoring weapon is, what book is that (MIC?) so I can read up and then have a prayer of understanding what you're saying to me? XD

[Dusk Eclipse]

Concerning Alter Self: Well I know there is a thread which discusses the best forms by level and HD (I think it includes up to Shapechange); but I don't have a link handy sorry.

Scorching ray is a touch spell, so it might not be difficult to land it.

Spell storing is in the DMG and the SRD, it allows you to save up a spell inside your weapon and when you hit with the spell storing weapon you discharge the spell on the guy you just hit.

[Godskook]

Also, dunno what a spellstoring weapon is, what book is that (MIC?) so I can read up and then have a prayer of understanding what you're saying to me? XD

Its in a really obscure book. Can't remember the name myself, but most people call it the DMG.:smalltongue::smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

I just finished putting together a duskblade/windwright captain//wizard/swiftblade (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=6721) myself (BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED, I AM WINDWRIGHT CAPTAIN GISH!). Here's my spell list:

DUSKBLADE SPELLS KNOWN:
0 - Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue
1 - Blade of Blood, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, Stand, True Strike
2 - Dimension Hop, Scorching Ray, Seeking Ray, Swift Fly
3 - Vampiric Touch

WIZARD SPELLS KNOWN:
0 - Acid Splash, Amanuensis, Arcane Mark, Caltrops, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Electricity Jolt, Flare, Ghost Sound, Launch Bolt, Launch Item, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, No Light, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Repair Minor Damage, Resistance, Silent Portal, Sonic Snap, Stick, Unnerving Gaze

2 - Animalistic Power, Balancing Lorecall, Baleful Transposition, Bladeweave, Cloud of Knives, Combust, Delusions of Grandeur, Earthbind, Heart of Air, Lesser Celerity, Mirror Image, Scimitar of Sand, Stormrunner's Ward, Whirling Blade

3 - Bands of Steel, Body Blaze, Detect Ship, Dimension Step, Fly, Girallon's Blessing, Great Thunderclap, Haste, Heart of Water, Legion of Sentinels, Lightning Bolt, Stars of Arvandor

4 - Aerial Alacrity, Backlash, Corporeal Instability, Disguise Ship, Firestride Exhalation, Greater Resistance, Heart of Earth, Lightning Fog, Slashing Dispel, Steelstring, Translocation Trick, Vortex of Teeth

5 - Dimension Jumper, Evacuation Rune, Flaywind Burst, Freezing Fog, Heart of Fire, Lightning Leap, Overland Flight, Sakkratar's Triple Strike, Shard Storm

Notable spells have been bolded and will be explained below.
Aerial Alacrity - RotW - swift action, lasts minutes/level, +30' fly speed, improve maneuverability one step, +1 dodge ac/reflex. Basically doubles up the effects of haste on yourself if you're flying.
Animalistic Power - PHB-II - +2 enh to str/dex/con, min/lev. Decent substitute for the wombat's buff spells in core, and I prefer it for its global applicability. Different party members might need different buffs in varying combats, and this lets me prep one spell instead of a bunch.
Balancing Lorecall - SC - Not a typical choice, but I took it here since I was going to drop a bunch into Balance anyway for shipboard combat. This lets you do epic skill checks without rolling against that crazy DC. Listening Lorecall is also good: it gives blindsense if your Listen is high enough.
Bands of Steel - SC - Reflex or paralyze. Great because it targets an odd save.
Blade of Blood - PHB-II - swift action, +1d6 damage, +3d6 damage if you take 5 damage yourself. Pretty solid at low levels, still good for a gish in late game for a finishing blow.
Bladeweave - SC - 1/round, free action, if you hit someone, daze them.
Chill Touch - PHB - Really only good for a duskblade unless you're fighting undead, in which case the fear clause is ridiculous. 1d4+CL rounds of panic that works through their normal mind-affecting immunity?
Dimension Hop - PHB-II - Also good for a duskblade. It's like Aporter equipment, in spell form. Touch someone, teleport them away from you. Good for defensive escape or offensive trapspringing.
Dimension Step - PHB-II - you and your buddies all immediately move up to your land speed as teleportation. Great for clever positioning and setting up that flank for your rogue buddy.
Firestride Exhalation - DrMa - AoE damage plus teleportation mobility is not something you'll see often, but it's helpful if you can get your hands on it, particularly in the right situation.
Girallon's Blessing - SC - Grow two more arms, get claw attacks on all four hands. Pretty ridiculous, especially since they're real arms. If you've got a TWFer in the party, hit him with this and remember that TWF automatically upgrades to MWF. Good on a pouncer too.
Heart of Air/Earth/Fire/Water - CM - Cast these in the morning and forget about them. You get Immune (Crits); +10 enh Jump, +10' enh Fly, +8 stability, CL*2 temp hp, +10 enh land speed, fire resist 20, swim speed = land speed, water breathing, +5 escape artist. So much goodies.
Legion of Sentinels - PHB-II - Absolutely ludicrous area control and/or damage if you have a dungeoncrasher in the party. Remember forced movement still provokes, so if you have a buddy who likes shoving things around, have him shove your enemies through the zone for ridiculous damage.
Lightning Leap - DrMa - Like Firestride Exhalation, this is AoE + mobility. This one's better for long hallways: bolt the hallway, flank your enemies.
Overland Flight - PHB - Cast it in the morning, fly all day, and when you need mobility, pop aerial alacrity for great justice.
Sakkratar's Triple Strike - LEoF - CL/3 allies in a 30' radius gain flaming burst, keen, and two extra attacks on a full attack. Absolutely ridiculous if your party is in the right position--which you can put them there with a quickened dimension step. This spell is basically snake's swiftness on amphetamines.
Scorching Ray - PHB - Solid damage, capable of single- or multi-targeting. Versatility is key for a gish.
Seeking Ray - PHB-II - 4d6 electricity, ignores cover, concealment, and shooting into melee penalties. Good for hard-to-hit targets.
Shocking Grasp - PHB - 5d6 electricity, bonus to hit versus metallic enemies. One of the better touch spells in early game.
Translocation Trick - SC - swap places and appearances with someone else. If you've played TF2, it's being a Spy. If you haven't, it's...well, its the best way to sow discord that I've found.
Vampiric Touch - PHB - Buckets of damage, major temp HP boost. This is a staple.
Whirling Blade - SC - Keld went over this before. Couple with Shape Spell for ridiculosity.

[Rhaegar14]

I just finished putting together a duskblade/windwright captain//wizard/swiftblade (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=6721) myself (BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED, I AM WINDWRIGHT CAPTAIN GISH!). Here's my spell list:

DUSKBLADE SPELLS KNOWN:
0 - Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue
1 - Blade of Blood, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, Stand, True Strike
2 - Dimension Hop, Scorching Ray, Seeking Ray, Swift Fly
3 - Vampiric Touch

WIZARD SPELLS KNOWN:
0 - Acid Splash, Amanuensis, Arcane Mark, Caltrops, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Electricity Jolt, Flare, Ghost Sound, Launch Bolt, Launch Item, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, No Light, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Repair Minor Damage, Resistance, Silent Portal, Sonic Snap, Stick, Unnerving Gaze

2 - Animalistic Power, Balancing Lorecall, Baleful Transposition, Bladeweave, Cloud of Knives, Combust, Delusions of Grandeur, Earthbind, Heart of Air, Lesser Celerity, Mirror Image, Scimitar of Sand, Stormrunner's Ward, Whirling Blade

3 - Bands of Steel, Body Blaze, Detect Ship, Dimension Step, Fly, Girallon's Blessing, Great Thunderclap, Haste, Heart of Water, Legion of Sentinels, Lightning Bolt, Stars of Arvandor

4 - Aerial Alacrity, Backlash, Corporeal Instability, Disguise Ship, Firestride Exhalation, Greater Resistance, Heart of Earth, Lightning Fog, Slashing Dispel, Steelstring, Translocation Trick, Vortex of Teeth

5 - Dimension Jumper, Evacuation Rune, Flaywind Burst, Freezing Fog, Heart of Fire, Lightning Leap, Overland Flight, Sakkratar's Triple Strike, Shard Storm

Notable spells have been bolded and will be explained below.
Aerial Alacrity - RotW - swift action, lasts minutes/level, +30' fly speed, improve maneuverability one step, +1 dodge ac/reflex. Basically doubles up the effects of haste on yourself if you're flying.
Animalistic Power - PHB-II - +2 enh to str/dex/con, min/lev. Decent substitute for the wombat's buff spells in core, and I prefer it for its global applicability. Different party members might need different buffs in varying combats, and this lets me prep one spell instead of a bunch.
Balancing Lorecall - SC - Not a typical choice, but I took it here since I was going to drop a bunch into Balance anyway for shipboard combat. This lets you do epic skill checks without rolling against that crazy DC. Listening Lorecall is also good: it gives blindsense if your Listen is high enough.
Bands of Steel - SC - Reflex or paralyze. Great because it targets an odd save.
Blade of Blood - PHB-II - swift action, +1d6 damage, +3d6 damage if you take 5 damage yourself. Pretty solid at low levels, still good for a gish in late game for a finishing blow.
Bladeweave - SC - 1/round, free action, if you hit someone, daze them.
Chill Touch - PHB - Really only good for a duskblade unless you're fighting undead, in which case the fear clause is ridiculous. 1d4+CL rounds of panic that works through their normal mind-affecting immunity?
Dimension Hop - PHB-II - Also good for a duskblade. It's like Aporter equipment, in spell form. Touch someone, teleport them away from you. Good for defensive escape or offensive trapspringing.
Dimension Step - PHB-II - you and your buddies all immediately move up to your land speed as teleportation. Great for clever positioning and setting up that flank for your rogue buddy.
Firestride Exhalation - DrMa - AoE damage plus teleportation mobility is not something you'll see often, but it's helpful if you can get your hands on it, particularly in the right situation.
Girallon's Blessing - SC - Grow two more arms, get claw attacks on all four hands. Pretty ridiculous, especially since they're real arms. If you've got a TWFer in the party, hit him with this and remember that TWF automatically upgrades to MWF. Good on a pouncer too.
Heart of Air/Earth/Fire/Water - CM - Cast these in the morning and forget about them. You get Immune (Crits); +10 enh Jump, +10' enh Fly, +8 stability, CL*2 temp hp, +10 enh land speed, fire resist 20, swim speed = land speed, water breathing, +5 escape artist. So much goodies.
Legion of Sentinels - PHB-II - Absolutely ludicrous area control and/or damage if you have a dungeoncrasher in the party. Remember forced movement still provokes, so if you have a buddy who likes shoving things around, have him shove your enemies through the zone for ridiculous damage.
Lightning Leap - DrMa - Like Firestride Exhalation, this is AoE + mobility. This one's better for long hallways: bolt the hallway, flank your enemies.
Overland Flight - PHB - Cast it in the morning, fly all day, and when you need mobility, pop aerial alacrity for great justice.
Sakkratar's Triple Strike - LEoF - CL/3 allies in a 30' radius gain flaming burst, keen, and two extra attacks on a full attack. Absolutely ridiculous if your party is in the right position--which you can put them there with a quickened dimension step. This spell is basically snake's swiftness on amphetamines.
Scorching Ray - PHB - Solid damage, capable of single- or multi-targeting. Versatility is key for a gish.
Seeking Ray - PHB-II - 4d6 electricity, ignores cover, concealment, and shooting into melee penalties. Good for hard-to-hit targets.
Shocking Grasp - PHB - 5d6 electricity, bonus to hit versus metallic enemies. One of the better touch spells in early game.
Translocation Trick - SC - swap places and appearances with someone else. If you've played TF2, it's being a Spy. If you haven't, it's...well, its the best way to sow discord that I've found.
Vampiric Touch - PHB - Buckets of damage, major temp HP boost. This is a staple.
Whirling Blade - SC - Keld went over this before. Couple with Shape Spell for ridiculosity.

Wow. That's a lot of suggestions. Thanks lol.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I have a sizable list of spells that I compiled for a Gish build all my own. Sorc is NOT that big of a gimp, considering how well it interacts with a Paladin dip. Sorcerer 4/Paladin 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 was what I ended up with; had insane saves, was fairly SAD (used CHA for damage with Gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows, again with Slippers of Battledancing, and again with Divine Might... Before getting to class abilities and spells), got 16 BAB (for that magical fourth attack) and 18th-level spellcasting (for that magical ninth-level spellcasting), though it only reaches both at level 20.

If you have other primary casters, you could do as I did and focus on swift- and immediate-action casting. The Duskblade got a lot of low-level options, but PHBII and SpC both had some good options. Thunder Lance and Whirling Blade are good options for maneuver-like spells, and there are a few good spells for animating your weapon (using your primary casting stat for damage bonuses). When I get home, I can post the list of spells I used, and dig up some honorable mentions (Fax covered quite a few of them though).

[only1doug]

I'd definately recommend heart of Air (L2) and Heart of Water (L3) (from Complete mage), hours / level duration and as a tertiary effect the 2 combined will give lesser fortification. (I say tertiary as each spell has its primary effect + a secondary effect which can be triggered anytime during the spell). (eventually heart of fire and earth as well for total fortification).

Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon) is a great 3rd Level spell for a gish (especially if you maintain your caster level) granting increased effective weapon size with bludgeoning weapons.

[Feytalist]

The "heart of X" range is really not a bad choice at all. Combined, they give fortification and eventually immunity to crits/sneak attacks, as has been stated. Plus, when expended, they give other effects for free: fly/stoneskin/freedom of movement/etc.

Anything that enhances your physical attacks is obviously useful. Bladeweave and blade of blood has been mentioned. There are some swift action spells that also might come in handy, depending on how many spells known you have left. Critical strike and its mates (from either CAdv or CScoundrel, I forget) might help.

Also, +1 to mirror image. And perhaps blink.

[Keld Denar]

Eh, by the time you can afford all 4 Heart of X spells known on a Sorcerer list, you'll have 6th level spells and can just take Elemental Body to cover your total fortification, immunity to stunning, and give you a perfect fly speed equal to your land speed. Not saying that the temp HP from Heart of Earth still aren't worth it, or that the FoM from Heart of Water isn't still VERY useful, but the others are pretty skippable once you have Elemental Body.

[Feytalist]

Fair enough. But on lower levels, even partial fortification from two spells is pretty handy.

Plus you get all the body spells one level earlier. Heh.

[only1doug]

Heart of Earth is always worth having for Stoneskin & to a lesser extent temporary hitpoints, Heart of water is worth keeping for Freedom of movement.

once you have access to Elemental body then yes, i guess you can swap out Fire and Air.