Psionics vs Spells

[Cornelius Grim]

Does anyone have any preference to which one? Explain why please. I'm making a new level ten character for a friend's group, and can't decide but I think I want something to do with spells or Psionics. The DM is running the Tomb of Horrors, so it's not like the character will be around for too long- :smallfrown: But still, I wanna at least try something. So basically, explain your preferences, and give some advice please. Thanks! :smallwink:

[Fable Wright]

Well, it all depends on what you want to do with them. With a spellcaster, you can go paranoid beyond all belief and have spells for every situation. And leave some blank to fill in later for more situations if your spells fail you. Psionics is much more enjoyable, IMO. If you take the right feats and powers, you have a wide range of things you can do on each turn. It's more useful outside of Tomb of Horrors, though, as you need paranoid tier 1 wizard to survive it. Unless you're using the gimped 3.5e version, in which case do whatever. In that case, Wizard can keep everyone alive longest, but is really heavy bookwork to maintain. Psions are easy maintenance, fun to play, and can be very versatile depending on power selection, but can't actually do everything in their spellbooks libraries that they spent their WBL on.

[Greenish]

I prefer the fluidity of psionics to the rigid vancian casting, personally.

[Tvtyrant]

I like Astral Constructs. Other then that I never was really interested in psions.

[Optimator]

I suppose I like psionics as a system more but there are just sooo many good spells out there... tough call.

[Divide by Zero]

I prefer the fluidity of psionics to the rigid vancian casting, personally.


I like Astral Constructs. Other then that I never was really interested in psions.

Both of these reasons, and also I find power points to be much easier to keep track of.

And the psionic sandwich, of course.

[Alleran]

Psionics is easier to keep track of, but then, so is spontaneous casting (which, if enough spells can be added to a Spells Known list, is probably my favourite method of spellcasting). I usually like to add Arcane Manipulation and Versatile Spellcaster to my spontaneous casting, too. It's basically using two feats to wind up with a Spell Point system, but I'm not bothered by that. The DCS with a Grey Elf fixes the feat issue anyway.

[Yora]

I like to call psions sorcerers and call it a day.

[TroubleBrewing]

And the psionic sandwich, of course.

The psionic sandwich. Of doom.

[TheAzrael]

have the best of both worlds. Play a spell to power erudite :) the only psion i think that can learn spells as powers :)

[Cerlis]

well. simply put psionics is just better than spells. a great many spells (utility ones. such as dispel magic. and teleport) have psionic versions. while when they made psionics you can tell they thought "well we need all the basics of magic. so here is a psionic version of everything magic. but lets also add this and this". yes Psions get less abilities known than wizards but they still have just as wide of range.

Further. Psionics is way overpowered when it comes to casting compared to spells. they have entire metamagic feats that allow you to cast without speech or somatic components or material components. with psionics you can use all your powers anytime you want and the only downside is the enemy might get some sensation that you are doing something (dust, or light or sound) which you can neutralize with a skill check. further there is no spell failure chance. So as long as a psychic character takes no ability that requires an attack roll he can wear full plate without being proficient and still cast all his powers . hell he can take a 1 lvl dip into a melee psionic prestige class and get armor without losing "spell " advancement.

Furthermore you waste entire spells known "updating" your spells. Fireball is just 3rd lvl burning hands. Meteor swarm is just high lvl fireball. you are wasting a spell known for generic "I do damage like this lower level spell but more of it". While half the psionic spells that deal damage of have durations you can augment. you essentially have free metamagic feats built into many important abilities. you dont need to learn a higher level generic Elemental attack, all you have to do is take that energy bolt lvl 1 power. you can augment it up to 9th lvl equivelant, for max damage without wasting a higher level power known. and you dont even have to take different power types cus when you cast it you choose which energy type it is. so no more "I need to learn melfs acid arrow cus what if we come across something immune to fire?" you just cast the acid version of the power you already have.

and many spells you can turn into faster actions up to swift or immediate actions by augmenting. and other feats allow you to metamagic things impossibly. like the feat that lets you cast powers as attack of opportunity. or the one that lets you cast a power while incapacitated. YOu can be HELPLESS and still cast a personal range power (albiet a low level one)

Basically Psionics is SPellcasting 2.0 and the only possible flaws are wasting all your Power points casting big spells and not wasting time with lower level versions to conserve. and if your DM is a Douche and doesnt treat Psionics as the same as magic (which is completely nullified if you have an arcane caster or if you have a clever party. so your DM would have to try hard to be a douche)


In my opinion

[Psyren]

Hoboy. I'll pick Cerlis' post apart when I get to work.

@ OP: Psionics are not more powerful than spells, not even just comparing the XPH to core. Psionics has some advantages (namely Telepathy vs. Enchantment, Clairsentience vs. Divination, Psychokinesis vs. Evocation, and action-economy wise) but magic is capable of far more raw power.

[Wings of Peace]

I prefer spells myself. I find it a lot easier to **** with metamagic than with metapsionics.

I'm also fond of the fact that my spells auto-scale rather than requiring more juice. At higher levels it averages to more available bang with spells than with psionics (assuming I'm not using some sort of infinite power point trick, though in response to that I would just have my arcanist take Reserves of Strength).

It's true Vancian casting is a pain, but I've never found it to be overly restrictive. Most of my Wizards combine Magical Training (Sorcerer) with Versatile Spellcaster anyways so if I'm ever caught completely without pants I can still splurge a few extra slots to cast whatever spell I most need.

[Kylarra]

I prefer psionics for many of the reasons stated above. However, for you (and ToH), you could look into the trapfinder build which uses summon elemental reserve feat along with I think fiery burst or some other blasty reserve feat to negate the majority of the traps. This would require you to use spells.

[sonofzeal]

well. simply put psionics is just better than spells. a great many spells (utility ones. such as dispel magic. and teleport) have psionic versions. while when they made psionics you can tell they thought "well we need all the basics of magic. so here is a psionic version of everything magic. but lets also add this and this". yes Psions get less abilities known than wizards but they still have just as wide of range.
- Psions have less Spells Known than Wizards, so some consolidation was important. Also, most of the cool stuff is locked away in Discipline lists. Wizards can draw from every school except their banned school, and Sorcerers can draw freely from everything, but Psions only get their own Domain and have to spend feats to grab individual powers from other domains.

- You generally have to PAY to get those higher effects. Psionic Charm, for example, starts out like Charm Person. If you want to get Charm Monster type effects, you've got to pump PP into it.

- Even accounting for this, the number of arcane spells in the game dwarfs the number of psionic powers by several orders of magnitude. Psionicists need to be thrown a bone to compete.

So yes, Powers are more flexible than Spells, but there's a tradeoff. That's not unreasonable.

Further. Psionics is way overpowered when it comes to casting compared to spells. they have entire metamagic feats that allow you to cast without speech or somatic components or material components. with psionics you can use all your powers anytime you want and the only downside is the enemy might get some sensation that you are doing something (dust, or light or sound) which you can neutralize with a skill check. further there is no spell failure chance. So as long as a psychic character takes no ability that requires an attack roll he can wear full plate without being proficient and still cast all his powers . hell he can take a 1 lvl dip into a melee psionic prestige class and get armor without losing "spell " advancement.
All true, except the last bit. Warmind has casting at 1st lvl but it's independent so you lose out. Slayer's casting stacks but it doesn't advance at first level.

The tradeoff here I'd say is metamagic vs metapsionic. Metamagic is categorically superior to metapsionic. A Wizard can use several metamagic feats on the same spell, often to great effect, and can use metamagic freely every turn. By contrast, it is very difficult for a Psion to do the former, and almost impossible to do the latter without massively burning resources of some sort.

They effectively get Still and Silent for free with a Concentration check, but they are restrained in other areas instead. That's not unreasonable.


Furthermore you waste entire spells known "updating" your spells. Fireball is just 3rd lvl burning hands. Meteor swarm is just high lvl fireball. you are wasting a spell known for generic "I do damage like this lower level spell but more of it". While half the psionic spells that deal damage of have durations you can augment. you essentially have free metamagic feats built into many important abilities. you dont need to learn a higher level generic Elemental attack, all you have to do is take that energy bolt lvl 1 power. you can augment it up to 9th lvl equivelant, for max damage without wasting a higher level power known. and you dont even have to take different power types cus when you cast it you choose which energy type it is. so no more "I need to learn melfs acid arrow cus what if we come across something immune to fire?" you just cast the acid version of the power you already have.
Yes.

And guess what Wizards get? Damage that scales for free. A Kineticist manifesting a 10d6 Energy Missile is burning far more resources than an Evoker casting a 10d6 Fireball. In essence, every time the Kineticist wants to blast effectively, he has to cast a max-level spell. That 10d6 Energy Missile is more pp than a 5th level power, while the Evoker is still fine and dandy with his 3rd level spell slot. Chain Lighting is a 6th lvl spell that scales all the way up to 20d6 damage; by the time a Psion can do 20d6 base damage, he's burning as much resources as a 9th lvl power and a 2nd lvl power combined.

Are you really going to complain? Seriously?


and many spells you can turn into faster actions up to swift or immediate actions by augmenting. and other feats allow you to metamagic things impossibly. like the feat that lets you cast powers as attack of opportunity. or the one that lets you cast a power while incapacitated. YOu can be HELPLESS and still cast a personal range power (albiet a low level one)
Oh please. Count how many metapsionic feats there are and compare to the number of metamagic feats. Or here, I'll do it for you:

Metapsionic: 31
Metamagic: 98

And you're going to complain that Psi can do a few things Magic can't? Seriously?


Basically Psionics is SPellcasting 2.0 and the only possible flaws are wasting all your Power points casting big spells and not wasting time with lower level versions to conserve. and if your DM is a Douche and doesnt treat Psionics as the same as magic (which is completely nullified if you have an arcane caster or if you have a clever party. so your DM would have to try hard to be a douche)

In my opinion
Nope.

Psionics is different, but not categorically better. Its advantages come with disadvantages, and it's a fair call which you prefer. In fact, it's generally agreed that Arcane magic is preferable to Psionics from a pure powergaming perspective, based on the sheer amount of options and the number that are potentially gamebreaking.

Psi is far more balanced, easier to use since you don't have to track spell slots individually, and generally more elegant. But it's not more powerful.

[Kansaschaser]

In situations where I'm torn between two "caster" classes, I just take both.

If I was having a hard time deciding between a Psion or a Wizard, I would play a Psion/Wizard/Cerebralmancer.

Why pick one when you can do both? :smallwink:

[marcielle]

Warning, noobie opinion coming up.

Wizards if you eventually wanna have the ability to break EVERYTHING the DM throws at you. SERIOUSLY. EVERYTHING. I'M NOT EVEN JOKING.
Psions if you just wanna be able to moderately awesome stuff without TOO much effort. Choosing which path to go in the beginning is the hardest part.

Wizards require planing while building and then when you are done, planing which spells you will take and then planing how to ration them. That being said, wizards are THE GODAM BATMAN.
Psions require significantly less planing and are completely capable of shining bright in most situations but there's a reason they aren't tier 1. They just aren't capable of the levels of gamebreakery a wizard is.

[Lateral]

{Scrubbed}

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Psionics has some interesting tricks, as a system (insert obligatory reference to psionics trick handbook in sig) but it is certainly not more powerful than Arcane or Divine magic. One thing causing the disparity is the lack of support Psionics received in splats, compared to Arcane/Divine magic. The lack of depth to the corpus severely limits what can be done with Psionics. Although, with Spell-to-Power Erudite you can get access to most Arcane spells. That said, at a certain level of optimization Arcanists can get access to almost all of the Psychics' tricks, so it's kind of a wash.

[Veyr]

To anyone who may be reading this thread, and doesn't know much about Psionics: as far as I can tell, Cerlis is entirely wrong.

[Godskook]

Psionics "did-it-right", and thus, psionic characters tend to be far better by default than their vancian counterparts. 'Course, as optimization goes towards pun-pun, vancian magic tends to start to win out.

Vancian casting, otoh, provides much larger amounts of customization, not just in the spells themselves, but in the prestige and item support surrounding them. They also have fluff that's more in line with how we expect wizards/sorcerers to look, so its easier to grab them to make that kind of concept, where-as I'd grab a psionicist more for a psychic type, like a medieval Prof X or Jean Grey.

[Eldariel]

I like Psionics for "understood magic"; Vancian Casting is great for "obscure magic". Far as systems go, I prefer Psionics and know that Spells are more powerful (not that Psionics would be unable to break the game, of course; just in far fewer ways - also, some all-time classics like Save Game Trick derive off Psionics which makes them awesome). Psionics are more malleable and thus offer more that interests me. And Metapsionics have a built-in inhibitor in Psionic Focus making Metapsionics Abuse less harmful for the game (outside Dominant Ideal, at any rate).

Overall, Psionics manage more resources making the system more interesting in my opinion. They're also lower powered so they fit better into most games I run; my preferred Core setup is ToB + Psionics right now (with homebrew).

[Lateral]

To anyone who may be reading this thread, and doesn't know much about Psionics: as far as I can tell, Cerlis is entirely wrong.

Yup, and Sonofzeal is oh-so-right. One thing worth mentioning, in case it comes up:


(you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level).
This is incredibly important, so I'll say it again:

You can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level.

[Cerlis]

Everything i said is entirely true.

Sure you can only spend so many power points on a power. Same as wizards only have a certian spell slot. A psion can use several small metapsionic feat son one power same as a wizard can. a psion is limited to making it 20 PP at 20th lvl, while a wizard is limited by his 9th level spell slot. To metamagic multiple effects you have to use low level metamagic....which psionics has.

As to scaling damage, i'm no expert but i believe that the damaging powers dont stop at lvl one, just like how fireball stops scaling at 10th level, there are higher level powers that have better scaling and base damage. My MAIN point in that regard was that most people here say that there are to many blasting spells already, that focusing on it is stupid. you only need one or two. and a psychic character accomplishes that easily. while if an arcane caster pics only one or two damaging abilities he can easily find himself in a corner if he has the wrong attack type or damage type.

Also this is Psionics vs Arcane magic. Not Psion vs Wizard. I believe psychic warrior trumps Paladin just as easily. a single classes spells known doesnt matter. and i'm suprised by this sentiment since it seems everyone on this board seems to believe that use magic/psionic device is the cure all. so any psychic character is not limited by his powers known.

and comparing Arcane resources to Psionic resources is pure bullox. Psionics is a controversial move on part of the creators, many people ban it outright (usually cus they to feel its a bit to strong).

So no Core arcane magic does not have more options than core psionics. if we wanted to do it fairly it would be XPH and CP vs Players handbook and CA. if wizards wanted to support psionics as much as magic they could have and there would be just as many random overpowered strange weird ass psionic powers, feats and 3rd party supliments . but when you compare core system to core system Psionics has at least just as much as arcane.


This isnt Wizard vs Psion

Psionics has a metapsionic feat for every arcane one in core and then some. they can put in just as much meta in their stuff as spells can. and anyone who thinks they are "limited" by powerpoints has obviously forgotten that spell casters get spells per day.


-----------
I mean if your going to bring up the billions of dragon magazines, extra source books, and 3rd party systems that all made stuff to make Arcane do anything you might as well point out that you should just ignore both, cus i'm sure there is some cthlulu combo to make a fighter beat a wizard.

[tyckspoon]

To anyone who may be reading this thread, and doesn't know much about Psionics: as far as I can tell, Cerlis is entirely wrong.

Not entirely. It is true that many psionic powers are written so they augment in such a way that you can select one low-level psionic power and have it cover a field of several related spells- just in the OGL stuff, Psionic Charm and Dominate are single powers that augment to cover the ground of both Charm/Dominate Person and Charm/Dominate Monster. The easily variable scaling you get from the augmentation mechanic is one of the valid strong points of psionic power design compared to spells. It's just not a flat out win for blasters, since what psionics gets there it pays back in not getting free scaling. Sure, the Energy Bolt power is better than the Lightning Bolt spell, but if the Psion wants it to do 5th level-appropriate damage he pays for it as if it were a 5th-level spell. The Wizard still casts it as a 3rd level spell and enjoys having it automatically scale with him.. which leaves him 2 levels free to metamagic that sucker if he really wants it to be a 5th level effect. Like Empowering it.


Same as wizards only have a certian spell slot. A psion can use several small metapsionic feat son one power same as a wizard can. a psion is limited to making it 20 PP at 20th lvl, while a wizard is limited by his 9th level spell slot. To metamagic multiple effects you have to use low level metamagic....which psionics has.

Not quite true- metapsionics also require expending psionic focus. The most of those you can readily have around is 2, one yourself and one in your psicrystal. So.. you are expending a secondary valuable resource to stack your metamagic, it lowers the base strength of the power you use it on because you spend the powerpoints on the metapsionic feats instead of augmenting the power, and you paid 2 feats (crystal affinity and containment) to do it that do not directly improve your powers in any way. And.. you are arguing that psionics is just as good at metamagics as prepared casting?

[myancey]

Psionics for the win. Over-channeled, empowered Vigor at level 20 is beautiful for an HP buff...but my characters get the crud kicked out of them...so this is appealing to me.

[Arbitrarious]

Psionics is not more powerful, but I think it is a better implemented system and sometimes that makes it seem that way.

Things to rememember
- You can research new powers, and I don't think a reasonable DM would object to a spell to power conversion for something that didn't exist when the psionics book was made. So look at spells to get ideas for powers.
- You can manifest from a power stone.

Manifest an Unknown Power from Another’s Powers Known
A psionic character can attempt to manifest a power from a source other than his own knowledge (usually a power stone or another willing psionic character). To do so, the character must first make contact (a process similar to addressing a power stone, requiring a Psicraft check against a DC of 15 + the highest level power in the power stone or repertoire). A psionic character can make contact with only a willing psionic character or creature (unconscious creatures are considered willing, but not psionic characters under the effects of other immobilizing conditions). Characters who can’t use power stones for any reason are also banned from attempting to manifest powers from the knowledge of other psionic characters. Mental contact requires 1 full round of physical contact, which can provoke attacks of opportunity. Once contact is achieved, the character becomes aware of all the powers stored in the power stone or all the powers the other character knows up to the highest level of power the contactor knows himself.

Next, the psionic character must choose one of the powers and make a second Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level) to see if he understands it. If the power is not on his class list, he automatically fails this check.

Upon successfully making contact with another willing psionic character or creature and learning what he can of one power in particular, the character can immediately attempt to manifest that power even if he doesn’t know it (and assuming he has power points left for the day). He can attempt to manifest the power normally on his next turn, and he succeeds if he makes one additional Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level). He retains the ability to manifest the selected power for only 1 round. If he doesn’t manifest the power, fails the Psicraft check, or manifests a different power, he loses his chance to manifest that power for the day.

I like the concepts of wizards but they travel into TO territory often by accident. Spells are so limited and you must have exactly what you need prepared that it can be frustrating. Yes you have stone shape/fabricate which just what you need, but do you have 2? Or "oh look the monster saved". To make the spells actually count and be reliable you have to pick basically unstoppable spells with almost no chance to defend which leads to god mode.

Side note: I have never had a DM let me or any wizard actually use versatile caster for non-spontaneous spells.

[Malimar]

I originally hated everything about psionics.

My very first exposure to it was from somebody who was trying to import D&D-style psionics into a different system where it manifestly didn't fit (He insisted that what his character did was psionics, not magic; I asked what the difference was; he replied that magic involves gesticulating and chanting and other bizarre stuff, while psionics involves channeling the power of your mind; I pointed out that every magic-using character ever made in that system must have actually been a psionicist after all, if that was his definition). So I was predisposed against it from the start.

Plus, at least magic calls itself magic and doesn't remotely pretend to plausibility; psionics treads a little too close for my taste to the kind of thing I spend my days debunking in real life, even if only in common use of the letter ψ.

When I started playing D&D, I still hated psionics. There was already a magic system, this psionics nonsense didn't seem any different, certainly not different enough to merit a whole new system.

And whenever I broke down and began considering a psionic character, I noticed anew that 90% of the psionic feats pertained to this "psionic focus" nonsense that I wanted no part of, and made something else instead.

Then I discovered page 91 and 92 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, which made me chortle long and hard enough to decide to give psionics a chance.

Then I was offered a chance to play in an evil campaign, and I wanted to be a subtle kind of evil. I've never seen anybody play "evil" as anything other than "deranged serial killing psychopath with all the subtlety of a bulldozer, the social graces of a wolverine, the unique originality of the Inheritance Cycle, and the survival instincts of a cartoon lemming", so I wanted to demonstrate that it's possible to play evil properly. So the first thing that jumped to mind was diplomancer/mind-controller/thrallherd. So that's what I've been playing, and so far he's been fun, using Diplomacy and Psionic Charm to give the DM fits (haven't got to the thrallherd part yet).

All of that said:
spontaneous casting > psionics > prepared casting
(Though I admit the psionics system is basically what the spontaneous casting system should have been to begin with (aside from the psionic focus mechanic, which I still find simply messy), the fluff of psionics still makes me prefer magic. And, of course, prepared casting is too much like work to be any fun for me.)

[Draz74]

Sure you can only spend so many power points on a power. Same as wizards only have a certian spell slot. A psion can use several small metapsionic feat son one power same as a wizard can. a psion is limited to making it 20 PP at 20th lvl, while a wizard is limited by his 9th level spell slot. To metamagic multiple effects you have to use low level metamagic....which psionics has.
Learn the Psionic Focus rules (which are required for using Metapsionics). A psionic character can only ever stack two Metapsionic effects on a power, and even two requires four feats to pull off. Doesn't matter how low-level the power is.

That, not the PP limit, is what the others were talking about.


As to scaling damage, i'm no expert but i believe that the damaging powers dont stop at lvl one, just like how fireball stops scaling at 10th level, there are higher level powers that have better scaling and base damage.
The wizard gets Fireball at Level 5. For six whole levels of adventuring, he can keep using the same Level 3 Spell Slot to cast that Fireball, and its damage scales automatically. Sure, after Level 10 he might have to "upgrade" to Cone of Cold or Chain Lightning, but in the meantime, he gets free bonus damage.

The Kineticist? He needs to spend extra PP to get the extra damage.

Compare the two at Level 9. The Wizard is using a Level 3 spell slot to deal 9d6 damage. The Kineticist is using 9 PP -- which is essentially the same as a Level 5 spell slot -- to deal ... 9d6 damage. Magic clearly beats psionics here.


My MAIN point in that regard was that most people here say that there are to many blasting spells already, that focusing on it is stupid. you only need one or two. and a psychic character accomplishes that easily. while if an arcane caster pics only one or two damaging abilities he can easily find himself in a corner if he has the wrong attack type or damage type.
That's true, and this (NOT scaling damage) is the main reason that psionics is considered better than magic for blasting.


Psionics is a controversial move on part of the creators, many people ban it outright (usually because they've heard it's broken but have never tried it themselves, or misunderstand the rules, or don't like the flavor, or are stuck on the bad experiences they had with psionics in previous editions).
Fixed that for you.

I've never heard of anyone who tried out 3.5e psionics in their game and ran it correctly and thought the mechanics were borked. Except for one DM who didn't know how to handle a levitating character (news flash, magic does that too).


So no Core arcane magic does not have more options than core psionics. if we wanted to do it fairly it would be XPH and CP vs Players handbook and CA. if wizards wanted to support psionics as much as magic they could have and there would be just as many random overpowered strange weird ass psionic powers, feats and 3rd party supliments . but when you compare core system to core system Psionics has at least just as much as arcane.
Ever heard of Gate? Polymorph, Shapechange, Bind Planar Ally? Polymorph Any Object? Shrink Item, Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, Holy Word, Blasphemy? That's right, I thought you had. 'Cuz they're all Core.

Psionics has a whopping three powers that can compare with these in broken-ness (outside of some very obscure and complicated combos that use lots of sources): Metamorphosis, Greater Metamorphosis, and Synchronicity. The first two are just polymorph-equivalents. The other one is from CPsi, not XPH.

With the sources you are recommending -- no Dragon Magazine or even PHB2 required -- magic blows psionics completely out of the water in terms of numbers of game-breaking tricks.


Psionics has a metapsionic feat for every arcane one in core and then some. they can put in just as much meta in their stuff as spells can. and anyone who thinks they are "limited" by powerpoints has obviously forgotten that spell casters get spells per day.
Again: Psionic Focus is the issue here, man.

[sonofzeal]

Everything i said is entirely true.

Sure you can only spend so many power points on a power. Same as wizards only have a certian spell slot. A psion can use several small metapsionic feat son one power same as a wizard can. a psion is limited to making it 20 PP at 20th lvl, while a wizard is limited by his 9th level spell slot. To metamagic multiple effects you have to use low level metamagic....which psionics has.
Metapsi consumes Psi Focus. So... no. Doesn't work. A Psion only has one Psi Focus, and has to spend multiple feats to get a second, and then that's the limit. So your average Psion is unlikely to be able to apply two metapsi feats to the same power, and none can ever do three to my knowledge. That's a major limiting factor.


As to scaling damage, i'm no expert but i believe that the damaging powers dont stop at lvl one, just like how fireball stops scaling at 10th level, there are higher level powers that have better scaling and base damage. My MAIN point in that regard was that most people here say that there are to many blasting spells already, that focusing on it is stupid. you only need one or two. and a psychic character accomplishes that easily. while if an arcane caster pics only one or two damaging abilities he can easily find himself in a corner if he has the wrong attack type or damage type.
Psi powers are almost invariably limited to 1d6 per pp, with extremely few exceptions. Psionic Disintegrate is the only one I can think of, and it works exactly like its Arcane peer. So everything I said is still entirely appropriate.

And the reason people say blasting is sub-par is because, generally speaking, it's far faster and more efficient to toss out a SoL or SoD or SoS (or a no-save spell like Solid Fog) instead. Your claim here is entirely false. Damage type flexibility is nice, and Psi certainly gets some nice blasting powers, but that's about par for the course. Psi does well at Conjuration, Enchantment, and Evocation. Arcane is far superior at Illusion, Necromancy, and probably Transmutation.


Also this is Psionics vs Arcane magic. Not Psion vs Wizard. I believe psychic warrior trumps Paladin just as easily. a single classes spells known doesnt matter. and i'm suprised by this sentiment since it seems everyone on this board seems to believe that use magic/psionic device is the cure all. so any psychic character is not limited by his powers known.
You're still assuming Psion trumps Wizard. It categorically does not, as I've demonstrated. It has strengths, but balanced by weaknesses. At best, it's on parity, but with fewer really excellent spell options like Lesser Planar Ally or Solid Fog or Gate or Stinking Cloud.

Psychic Warrior is pretty solid though. Probably better than Paladin out of the box, but then again, Paladin out of the box is pretty mediocre. It's certainly not as good as Cleric or Druid, which get the same BAB and HD as the PsiWar, but could both demolish it.


and comparing Arcane resources to Psionic resources is pure bullox. Psionics is a controversial move on part of the creators, many people ban it outright (usually cus they to feel its a bit to strong).
Way to petitio principii.

A lot of groups still ban it because 2e Psi was really random and 3.0e Psi was just completely borked. But 3.5e Psi has won a lot of people over, because it's legitimately a more balanced and elegant system than arcane.


So no Core arcane magic does not have more options than core psionics. if we wanted to do it fairly it would be XPH and CP vs Players handbook and CA. if wizards wanted to support psionics as much as magic they could have and there would be just as many random overpowered strange weird ass psionic powers, feats and 3rd party supliments . but when you compare core system to core system Psionics has at least just as much as arcane.
Let's do core then.

There are 43 third lvl spells. Any given Psion has access to half as many third lvl powers.

Most of the really broken options for Arcane are in core. A few of them can be accessed by Psionic characters, but not very many.

Even in Core, Arcane is more flexible, and more broken, than Psi.



This isnt Wizard vs Psion

Psionics has a metapsionic feat for every arcane one in core and then some. they can put in just as much meta in their stuff as spells can. and anyone who thinks they are "limited" by powerpoints has obviously forgotten that spell casters get spells per day.
Your first statement is true, your second is categorically false as I mentioned above. Psi Focuses are tricky things, and having to expend one every time you use a Metapsi is a huge limitation.

And yes, psi is limited by powerpoints just as casters are limited by spells per day. That one I'll consider a wash, although it becomes relevant again if the Psion starts blasting, since as previously mentioned Arcane gets more mileage out of its mid-level blasts since they auto-scale with level. If the Psion's paying pp through the nose to get max damage on every blast, he'll run out long before the Arcanist does.


I mean if your going to bring up the billions of dragon magazines, extra source books, and 3rd party systems that all made stuff to make Arcane do anything you might as well point out that you should just ignore both, cus i'm sure there is some cthlulu combo to make a fighter beat a wizard.
How about we presume the books commonly available to most gaming groups then, hmm? That's Core, most of the Completes, maybe a couple of the environmental books, a few of the MMs, maybe one or two others. And, for most gaming groups, Arcane is going to have a buttload more options. And, as already stated, the majority of the really brokenly-good ones are in the most commonly-owned sources, namely Core itself.

[Lateral]

Okay, first of all, I'm having trouble parsing this... almost-text. Most of what I wanted to say has been said, but I just have this:

-----------
I mean if your going to bring up the billions of dragon magazines, extra source books, and 3rd party systems that all made stuff to make Arcane do anything you might as well point out that you should just ignore both, cus i'm sure there is some cthlulu combo to make a fighter beat a wizard.

Psionics has two sourcebooks (and the second one sucks.) Give arcane magic two sourcebooks (PHB and... let's say SpC), and it kicks Psionics' ass in power. Give it JUST CORE and it kicks psionics' ass. And in reference to your second point? There is. It's called the Lightning Warrior, look it up. :smallannoyed:

[Violet Octopus]

in response to the OP, I like psionics for the various immediate-action defenses it can throw up (particularly ones that apply to the party, like intellect fortress).

It is of course something arcane can do if one digs through enough books or just takes celerity, but I like how all the psionic options are just sitting there in the one book, and generally aren't as much of a no button as celerity.

I imagine if one is going through the Tomb of Horrors some of those powers would be useful.

[dextercorvia]

I just want to say that Ardent has the best mechanic for learning powers. I would play an Ardent/Wizard/Cerebremancer despite the MAD and like it.

[Psyren]

I just want to say that Ardent has the best mechanic for learning powers. I would play an Ardent/Wizard/Cerebremancer despite the MAD and like it.

Why subject yourself to MAD? Go with Cleric (or even better, Ur-Priest!) and PrC into Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) instead.

[Eldariel]

I mean if your going to bring up the billions of dragon magazines, extra source books, and 3rd party systems that all made stuff to make Arcane do anything you might as well point out that you should just ignore both, cus i'm sure there is some cthlulu combo to make a fighter beat a wizard.

Short list of reasons Psionics falls behind Core Arcane spellcasting:
- Planar Binding
- Simulacrum
- Gate
- Disjunction

Then you have all the regular control spells which Psionics doesn't really have a comparable answer to (Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, Wall of Stone, Wall of Force) and some areas like Invisibility that Psionics simply doesn't do.

Psionics is better in some areas but purely powerwise, it gets its ass handed by arcane spellcasting alone, let alone vancian spellcasting in general (Divine spells add fun stuff like Miracle, Control Winds, etc. to the list).

[Tvtyrant]

Also this is Psionics vs Arcane magic. Not Psion vs Wizard. I believe psychic warrior trumps Paladin just as easily. a single classes spells known doesnt matter. and i'm suprised by this sentiment since it seems everyone on this board seems to believe that use magic/psionic device is the cure all. so any psychic character is not limited by his powers known.

and comparing Arcane resources to Psionic resources is pure bullox. Psionics is a controversial move on part of the creators, many people ban it outright (usually cus they to feel its a bit to strong).


This isnt Wizard vs Psion

So comparing Psychic Warrior with Bard (same Tier), Psion with Sorceror(same Tier) or Wizard (lesser tier). Soul Knife is weaker than Ranger or Paladin, and Wilder is a high Tier 3. Not one of the Psionic classes is better than an arcane class with a similar chassis. They are also universally weaker then the core divine classes.

[Ernir]

So comparing Psychic Warrior with Bard (same Tier), Psion with Sorceror(same Tier) or Wizard (lesser tier). Soul Knife is weaker than Ranger or Paladin, and Wilder is a high Tier 3. Not one of the Psionic classes is better than an arcane class with a similar chassis. They are also universally weaker then the core divine classes.

To be fair, I think a XPH PsyWar would be a roaring engine of destruction when compared to a PHB Bard.
Much more fair when the Bard has its splatbook power, though.

And I'd sooner put the Wilder in low Tier 2 than Tier 3, but that's just me.

[sonofzeal]

Here's the real question though...

Monk vs Soulknife - who wins?

[Lateral]

Here's the real question though...

Monk vs Soulknife - who wins?

Good question. Monk gets far more splat support, so let's ignore all splats outside of core+XPH for this exercise.

Side note: Y'know what's really stupid? Psionics gets no illusions. AT ALL.

[TroubleBrewing]

Monk vs Soulknife - who wins?

Easy. Everyone loses when Monk is involved.

[Gardener]

Here's the real question though...

Monk vs Soulknife - who wins?

Interesting one. And solo PvP is a strong suit for both of them...

At very low levels, Improved Grapple is a gimme for the monk.
At very high levels, Knife to the Soul should swing it to the soulknife - MAD should mean low Int and/or Cha for the monk.
In the middle... Probably monk, as Deflect Arrows lets him force melee, and monk flurries hit pretty hard.

So, Monk up to level 13, then Soulknife?

[FMArthur]

Soulknife did get a couple of empowering ACFs from a web enhancement, though; the ability to manifest one 1st level power (Expansion) and bonus feats at 3rd level and every 4 levels afterward, which can be any feat that benefits combat with a Mind Blade (better than Fighter feats!). With the free magic weapon thrown in as well as simply being able to use armor and a couple decent class features, I think Soulknife can actually get closer to Fighter in power than a Monk. Not that that is an exceptional bar to be aiming for.

On the other hand, the best Monk "support" I can think of is Tashalatora, the feat that gives the heart of the Monk class to any psionic class. What else did Monks get out of splats besides ways for them to piggyback off of other classes?

[sonofzeal]

Soulknife did get a couple of empowering ACFs from a web enhancement, though; the ability to manifest one 1st level power (Expansion) and bonus feats at 3rd level and every 4 levels afterward, which can be any feat that benefits combat with a Mind Blade (better than Fighter feats!). With the free magic weapon thrown in as well as simply being able to use armor and a couple decent class features, I think Soulknife can actually get closer to Fighter in power than a Monk. Not that that is an exceptional bar to be aiming for.

On the other hand, the best Monk "support" I can think of is Tashalatora, the feat that gives the heart of the Monk class to any psionic class. What else did Monks get out of splats besides ways for them to piggyback off of other classes?
There's a Dragon Magazine ACF for Monks which, IIRC, gives them wildshape. Yeah, it's pretty badass.


For the defaults, I think Gardener has it right. Monk to 13, Soulknife after.

[Gardener]

Soulknife did get a couple of empowering ACFs from a web enhancement, though; the ability to manifest one 1st level power (Expansion) and bonus feats at 3rd level and every 4 levels afterward, which can be any feat that benefits combat with a Mind Blade (better than Fighter feats!). With the free magic weapon thrown in as well as simply being able to use armor and a couple decent class features, I think Soulknife can actually get closer to Fighter in power than a Monk. Not that that is an exceptional bar to be aiming for.

On the other hand, the best Monk "support" I can think of is Tashalatora, the feat that gives the heart of the Monk class to any psionic class. What else did Monks get out of splats besides ways for them to piggyback off of other classes?
Improved Grapple + Flurry is something of a house in one-on-one PvP. One of the biggest problems with monks is that many of their useful abilities diminish sharply against DR, multiple opponents, opponents with more HD than them, and opponents larger than them. All of these things are very, very common in the opponents of an adventuring party, but they are substantially rarer in straight-up fights with another humanoid with class levels.

I'd much rather have a Soulknife on the team than a Monk, but the Monk will beat up the soulknife at least three times out of four before Knife to the Soul.

[Eldariel]

Improved Grapple + Flurry is something of a house in one-on-one PvP. One of the biggest problems with monks is that many of their useful abilities diminish sharply against DR, multiple opponents, opponents with more HD than them, and opponents larger than them. All of these things are very, very common in the opponents of an adventuring party, but they are substantially rarer in straight-up fights with another humanoid with class levels.

It also diminishes in efficiency against actual Warrior-classes (and higher level PCs in general due to Freedom of Movement being trivially available); Barbarian in particular is someone you don't want to grapple even if he doesn't have Imp. Grapple while you do; while you have more checks, just the fact that your primary attacks have to roll well to beat his base check while your iteratives don't really have a prayer really cuts the roots off that (Raging Barb without Improved Grapple generally has a higher Grapple-check than a Monk with Improved Grapple; to say nothing of a Bear Totem Grappler Barbarian who's like 10 ahead of the Grappler Monk by level 5).

Reach is another huge problem with Grappling in PvP; Grappling requires reaching natural attack range while Reach Weapons can stop you before then (of course, Monks have Tumble but on low levels it's still a relevant percentage chance to fail each time and later on Tumble can be negated).


So if pitting Soulknife against Monk in a direct fight, Monk probably has the edge early on but if pitting Monk and Soulknife against other PC classes OR monsters, at the very least the Imp. Grapple + Flurry routine won't probably be the thing giving Monk a significant advantage.

This is not to say Grappling is a worthless tactic for low level Arenas (heck, I destroyed one with restricted sources with a Warforged Barbarian Grappler; though obv I abused the **** out of Martial Weapon Proficiencies, action points and Use Psionic Device and only used Grappling when I needed to have an advantage in some combat form against another martial type, and got the opportunity), but you definitely want a Barbarian or at least some full BAB type for that.

[Gardener]

This is not to say Grappling is a worthless tactic for low level Arenas (heck, I destroyed one with restricted sources with a Warforged Barbarian Grappler; though obv I abused the **** out of Martial Weapon Proficiencies, action points and Use Psionic Device and only used Grappling when I needed to have an advantage in some combat form against another martial type, and got the opportunity), but you definitely want a Barbarian or at least some full BAB type for that.

I used to participate in a SRD-only arena that started at 3rd level. Half-Giant Monk 1/Psychic Warrior 1 was something of a cliche build. Yeah, BAB +0, but Expansion + Powerful Build + Improved Grapple destroyed everyone else's grapple checks.

And the question was Monk vs Soulknife. Against monsters, neither of them is going to be much good, though I'd rather have the Soulknife from about level 5, since you can switch to throwing bastard-sword-shaped mind blades two-handed with a 30ft range increment. The damage isn't huge, but it's okay and you're not a drain on resources from getting hit.

[mykelyk]

What else did Monks get out of splats besides ways for them to piggyback off of other classes?
Greater Invisibility as Immedite action every 3 round and improved trip without req are very good.

[erikun]

I prefer Psionics.

I actually like the theme of Psionics. (I will take my crystals over a pet frog, thank you very much.) Psionics gets the benefit of coming later in the system, having less obviously/deliberately broken feats and powers. The classes are far easier to use, resulting in more functional and less gimped characters - far less headaches for players and DMs. Psionics is far more multiclass-friendly than magic, and the augment system gives versatility and makes far less filler in the known powers list.

I was a bit disappointed when 3.5e Psionics came out and large amounts of the Wizard's spell list seemed to have just be pasted into the Psion's power list. I mean, Psionic Knock? Really? However, the whole system just works so well that I can't complain too much overall. It is definitely one of 3.5e's better sub-systems.

[Tvtyrant]

My favorite subsystem mechanically is essentia, which is very similar to psionics. I actually dislike the fluff of both of them, but mechanically they are amazing.

[Terazul]

There's a Dragon Magazine ACF for Monks which, IIRC, gives them wildshape. Yeah, it's pretty badass.


For the defaults, I think Gardener has it right. Monk to 13, Soulknife after.

Nah. Monastic Training + Tashalatora at level 1. BAM.

[Kylarra]

Nah. Monastic Training + Tashalatora at level 1. BAM.Tash can't be taken until L3, requires 5 ranks in 2 skills. So at least level 3.

[Psyren]

I was a bit disappointed when 3.5e Psionics came out and large amounts of the Wizard's spell list seemed to have just be pasted into the Psion's power list. I mean, Psionic Knock? Really?

You'll like Psionics Unleashed then, as they went out of their way to rename all the "Psionic X" powers that were in the XPH. "Breach" is cooler than "Psionic Knock" and "Cosmic Awareness" just sounds infinitely more badass than
"Psionic Moment of Prescience."

[Rejakor]

Psionic powers are more fun than spells. They do more stuff, it's more immediately useful without being broken, and it's cooler.

Flavourwise, it's more mind and time/spacey whereas spells are more summoning/creating stuff from other plans or changing what things are.

You can break the game hella easier with spells, but psionics is easier for casual play and more fun.

[Wings of Peace]

Can't we all just agree to play a Spell-to-Power Erudite with the Magic mantle (gained through a dip, a feat, or rule lawyering, doesn't really matter) and set aside our differences?

[Necroticplague]

I personally prefer psionics, if only because I'm a miser who hates running out of resources, and this line:


Regaining Power Points

Once the character has rested in a suitable environment, it takes only an act of concentration spanning 1 full round to regain all power points of the psionic character’s daily limit.

So I can simply recharge myself after every combat, without having to worry about running out (or resorting to a cheesy rope trick abuse). While a vancian caster needs 8 hours of rest to restore his resources, it takes a psionicist 6 seconds.

[Ernir]

I personally prefer psionics, if only because I'm a miser who hates running out of resources, and this line:

So I can simply recharge myself after every combat, without having to worry about running out (or resorting to a cheesy rope trick abuse). While a vancian caster needs 8 hours of rest to restore his resources, it takes a psionicist 6 seconds.

The difference between manifesters and spellcasters is there, spellcasters usually (or always?) need 15 minutes or an hour to regain their spell slots, while manifesters only need one round.
But the psionic characters are also subject to the following restriction, analogous to the one spellcasters:

Recent Manifesting Limit/Rest Interruptions

If a psionic character has manifested powers recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to regain power points. When he regains power points for the coming day, all power points he has used within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.

[The Glyphstone]

I personally prefer psionics, if only because I'm a miser who hates running out of resources, and this line:



So I can simply recharge myself after every combat, without having to worry about running out (or resorting to a cheesy rope trick abuse). While a vancian caster needs 8 hours of rest to restore his resources, it takes a psionicist 6 seconds.

Waaaaaaaaa?

No, it doesn't work like that...though that was noted right above.

[dextercorvia]

I personally prefer psionics, if only because I'm a miser who hates running out of resources, and this line:



So I can simply recharge myself after every combat, without having to worry about running out (or resorting to a cheesy rope trick abuse). While a vancian caster needs 8 hours of rest to restore his resources, it takes a psionicist 6 seconds.


Waaaaaaaaa?

No, it doesn't work like that...though that was noted right above.


Here, this might help.


Daily Power Point Acquisition

To regain used daily power points, a psionic character must have a clear mind. To clear his mind, he must first sleep for 8 hours. The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, manifesting powers, skill use, conversation, or any other demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of rest immediately prior to regaining lost power points. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I personally prefer psionics, if only because I'm a miser who hates running out of resources, and this line:



So I can simply recharge myself after every combat, without having to worry about running out (or resorting to a cheesy rope trick abuse). While a vancian caster needs 8 hours of rest to restore his resources, it takes a psionicist 6 seconds.

While there are several ways to effect a Psionic Recharge, this is not one of them.

[erikun]

You'll like Psionics Unleashed then, as they went out of their way to rename all the "Psionic X" powers that were in the XPH. "Breach" is cooler than "Psionic Knock" and "Cosmic Awareness" just sounds infinitely more badass than "Psionic Moment of Prescience."
True, but the naming is only half the problem. You are a psychic being capable of manipulating matter and tapping into the aether to access the knowledge of others. Which power sounds the least appropriate: Gaining the Trapfinding ability along with max ranks in Search/Open lock for a short time, rolling a skill check to open the lock through telekinesis, or snapping your fingers and having the lock open by itself?

[FMArthur]

You use your telekinetic abilities to move the mechanisms inside the lock. I've seen it more than a few times in fantasy novels I've read, and those were actually using much more 'psionic' magic than D&D. It's hardly out of place, especially with a changed name.

[Draz74]

True, but the naming is only half the problem. You are a psychic being capable of manipulating matter and tapping into the aether to access the knowledge of others. Which power sounds the least appropriate: Gaining the Trapfinding ability along with max ranks in Search/Open lock for a short time, rolling a skill check to open the lock through telekinesis, or snapping your fingers and having the lock open by itself?

The second and third options sound identical mechanically. It's up to you and your DM to assign appropriate fluff to the mechanics.

[Urpriest]

The second and third options sound identical mechanically. It's up to you and your DM to assign appropriate fluff to the mechanics.

The second involves rolling a skill check, actually.

This is interesting...you could rule it like Control Body, with Int+ML replacing Dex+Skill Ranks. Would be another example of psi being more balanced really.

[Psyren]

Not one of the Psionic classes is better than an arcane class with a similar chassis.

StP Erudite :smallwink: Tier Zero is the stuff of nightmares.


To be fair, I think a XPH PsyWar would be a roaring engine of destruction when compared to a PHB Bard.
Much more fair when the Bard has its splatbook power, though.

Combat-wise, you'd be correct. However, the tiers are not based solely around "destruction,"; they take a variety of game situations into account. An SRD Bard can still perform decently in combat while mopping the floor with an SRD Psywar socially.


Here's the real question though...

Monk vs Soulknife - who wins?

If 3.5, it's a toss-up, but the Soulknife has much better ranged ability even without Soulbow. The "Monk to 13 then SK" judgment probably works, and it might switch over even earlier.

If Pathfinder, PF Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) wins over PF Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) by a nearly comically large margin.

[subject42]

If you can use the Save Game Trick at your level (I'm not sure), I would suggest psionics all the way. That particular trick is made for the Tomb of Horrors.

[Zaq]

One of the few things that bothers me about psionics is that it's very self-focused. I like buffers, and psionicists aren't very good at party buffing. (There's SOME that they can do, but most psionic buffs make YOU awesome, not your buddy.)

[Psyren]

One of the few things that bothers me about psionics is that it's very self-focused. I like buffers, and psionicists aren't very good at party buffing. (There's SOME that they can do, but most psionic buffs make YOU awesome, not your buddy.)

Psionics Expanded (the followup to Psionics Unleashed) plans to introduce the Vitalist, an updated version of their "Society Mind" (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/society-mind) class designed for Pathfinder instead of 3.5.

In true psionics fashion, he still focuses on self-buffs; his definition of "self" just happens to be very, very broad. :smallwink:

[Gardener]

If 3.5, it's a toss-up, but the Soulknife has much better ranged ability even without Soulbow. The "Monk to 13 then SK" judgment probably works, and it might switch over even earlier.

If Pathfinder, PF Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) wins over PF Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) by a nearly comically large margin.

Monks get Deflect Arrows and are faster, and Soulknives don't get more than one good ranged attack a round until level 17 thanks to the one-draw-per-round restriction. While the soulkinfe has much better ranged attacks, he can't maintain range and the monk is very resistant to ranged attacks.