Swordsage Optimization time

[Khal Rhygo]

Hey, Playground... I am usually a DM for a group of friends and lately have really come into my own niche of good Dming, so of course NOW I am being presented the opportunity to be a player. In ALL of my campaigns there has always been that one min-max'd character who is super optimized and rocks everything I throw at them. SO I want to be that character this time around and since I am not good at optimizing I figured here would be the best place to go. Also my brother will be playing in this campaign playing a wild shaping ranger, and I obviously want to out do him, he will almost definitely also post asking for optimization advice but thats beside the point. I want to play a duel-wielding Swordsage. I am not 100% set on that but I do not want to play a primary caster, but I am fine with secondary casting being mixed in. I also am partial to making a ton of attacks in one round and I want to play a human-ish race. No Diopsid here, goliaths are pushing it but I will keep it in mind for a GREAT build. I also do not want a race or template with a HUGE level adjustment although we will be starting at level 6 so those are options. Min/maxing optimizers gogo!

[Rhaegar14]

{Scrubbed}

[Khal Rhygo]

Go away Rhaegar :smallyuk:

[Godskook]

Unarmed Swordsage 20 is completely viable, or possibly:

Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 1-3/UASS 14-16

Barbarian to grab pounce, fighter for a few extra feats, and swashbuckler for weapon finesse and int to damage(if you want it, not really needed since its an off-stat).

That leaves you with Dex/Wis>Str/Con/Int>Cha, depending on your stat generation method, and could potentially give you Str+Wis+Int+Dex to damage when initiating one of your two disciplines' strikes. If you're stuck with two penalties don't go more than Swash 1, and dump Int.

Good feats include:
-Weapon Finesse(as a feat or as a Swash dip, either way is useful to you)
-Adaptive Style(this will *GREATLY* help you in longer battles)
-Shadow Blade(dex to damage with unarmed strikes, but only in SH stance)
-Extra Readied maneuver(handy)
-Power Attack(You're wielding one of the rare PA+Finesse weapons in the game)
-TWF + ITWF + GTWF

If the party has a wizard in it, spend your WBL on:
-Greater Mighty Whallop(Size increases for your weapon!)

[Greenish]

TWF chain, Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, and your feats are pretty much spoken for. I like a dip into hit and run fighter for a feat and dex to damage (again) vs. flat-footed. Cleric dip is also always great fun, say, for magic domain power and a few devotion feats.

[Khal Rhygo]

I like the idea of a spiked chain wielder rather than a Unarmed Swordsage, so if people want to roll with that for an idea go ahead, I'm definitely considering it

[Hirax]

How high op are we talking here? Are flaws in play? Point buy? Or if your stats are decided those would be helpful.

[Khal Rhygo]

Flaws are acceptable and as OP as you can get the better, I may take out some of the suggestions for fluff but as far as from Playground I just want to see the best build

[Godskook]

I like the idea of a spiked chain wielder rather than a Unarmed Swordsage, so if people want to roll with that for an idea go ahead, I'm definitely considering it

It sets you back a feat for no really useful purpose, since as a medium BAB feat-starved dex-focused class, you're not really going to be using trip that often.

[Greenish]

I like the idea of a spiked chain wielder rather than a Unarmed Swordsage, so if people want to roll with that for an idea go ahead, I'm definitely considering itYou can't TWF a spiked chain.

Though you can definitely TWF a spiked chain and unarmed strikes, and they're both handily finessable shadow hand weapons (that allow PA, if you'd like).

Just because "unarmed swordsage" is called that doesn't mean you can't use weapons. :smalltongue:

[Edit]: Dragon Magazine #310 has the Exoticist fighter variant, which can be combined with Hit and Run fighter. Proficiency for any four exotic weapons practically for free.

[Khal Rhygo]

If Unarmed is the best I'll go with it. Also I am not that familiar with character creation options seeing as 90% of my DnD experience is DMing and 80% 4e so bear with me here haha.

[Elric VIII]

Strongheart Halfling is an excelent choice if you're going to use Shadow Blade + Weapon Finesse to make yourself Str-independant, as it give +2 Dex, -2 Str, small size, and a bonus feat.


Depending on your DM's view on Nightsticks, a 1-level dip into Cleric can be good. If he allows Nightsticks to stack you can get the benefits of various Divine feats while still dumping Cha. Although if you want to use Knowledge Devotion you should probobly be Human, for Able Learner to have all knowledge skills as class skills for all classes.

I would suggest something like this:

Human (2 Flaws)

Swordsage 1/Exoticist, Hit-and-Run Fighter 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Swordsage +17

Take the Knowledge, Inquisition, and Travel domains.

Feats:

Level 1:

Human: Able Learner
1st level: Adaptive Style
Flaw 1: Shadow Blade
Flaw 2: Combat Reflexes

Level 2:

Fighter 1:Weapon Finesse, EWP:Spiked Chain

Level 3:

Trade Inquisiton Domain: Knowledge Devotion
Trade Travel Domain: Travel Devotion
3rd level: Extra Readied Maneuver

Level 6: Power Attack

Level 9: Craven

Level 12: Staggering Strike


Your first level will be a bit hard, since you're favoring Dex over Str and cannot take Weapon Finesse. See of your DM will waive the +1BAB pre req, if he does switch it with Combat Reflexes.

You might be a little MAD, since you need 13 Str for PA, Wis, Dex, and at least a little Int for Knowledge Devotion. Just remember, Wis is not too important since the maneuvers that require saves are not the best and AC is not too useful, especially since you're stuck in light armor.


[Edit]: Dragon Magazine #310 has the Exoticist fighter variant, which can be combined with Hit and Run fighter. Proficiency for any four exotic weapons practically for free.

I never noticed these before, they are really good, especially for dips.

[Wings of Peace]

See that part in many of the TOB prcs where it says every level boosts your IL by 1? Combine that with Bloodlines.

[Cog]

You can't TWF a spiked chain.
Four levels of Cavestalker can fix that, but you'll still need Oversized TWF.

[Elric VIII]

Four levels of Cavestalker can fix that, but you'll still need Oversized TWF.


Also, Exotic Weapon Master can get Flurry of Strikes (-2 to attacks and an extra strike) and a Master of Chains can use it as a double weapon.

However, my vote is still for Kusari-Gama, which can be switched from a double weapon to a reach weapon whenever you want. It's not a far stretch to get your DM to allow you to count it as a shadow hand weapon.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Also, Exotic Weapon Master can get Flurry of Strikes (-2 to attacks and an extra strike) and a Master of Chains can use it as a double weapon.

However, my vote is still for Kusari-Gama, which can be switched from a double weapon to a reach weapon whenever you want. It's not a far stretch to get your DM to allow you to count it as a shadow hand weapon.

umm that is the OA version, the most up to date version of Kusarigama is in the DMG and it is a light, finnesable reach weapon which can strike adjacent enemies (basically a light spiked chain)

[Elric VIII]

umm that is the OA version, the most up to date version of Kusarigama is in the DMG and it is a light, finnesable reach weapon which can strike adjacent enemies (basically a light spiked chain)

Yes, but from what I gather, most DMs don't like the idea of TWF with reach so it is a perfectly reasonable request to ask to use the OA version.

However, if your DM lets you use the DMG version it's a better weapon for TWF, but you cannot PA with it.

Although, I don't think the Kawanaga has a 3.5 version, so you could just use that. It's the same as OA Kasuri-Gama with less base damage, but it gives a bonus when used to make climb checks with it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

TBH I have never encountered a DM who opposed to that; but yeah you are probably right

[Greenish]

Yes, but from what I gather, most DMs don't like the idea of TWF with reachWhy wouldn't they? It's one feat more on a very feat starved build for something two-handers (the more efficient style anyway) can do by default.

[Elric VIII]

Why wouldn't they? It's one feat more on a very feat starved build for something two-handers (the more efficient style anyway) can do by default.

I wouldn't know, but the two people that DM that I know do not like those weapons. I, personally, give TWF guys a break by removing the +1 BAB from Weapon Finesse and lumping all the TWF feats into one (with scaling pre reqs).

[Khal Rhygo]

Ok so doing some of my own research I have decided I am going to do a THF warblade instead:

Goliath Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 17+
Im gonna take Lion totem whirling rage variants for the Barbarian level, the fighter is really just a dip for a bonus feat and dips are generally recommended for Warblades.
Going to be using a greataxe which will be considered large since I'm playing a Goliath for a 3d6 weapon. Feats focus on charging for the most part, the core progression I have figured out goes like this:
power attack
leap attack
extra rage
improved bull rush
Shock trooper

Anything anyone see that I could do to make this build better? Or I should do differently? Also what other feats should I take, Maneuvers? Stances?

[Elric VIII]

You might consider still taking Exoticist Fighter to get the use of Greathorn Minotaur Hammer. A large one deals 3d6 with 19-20/x4 crit. It's exotic from MM4

[Greenish]

I might grab the Mountain Rage goliath ACF instead of whirling frenzy (reach is sexy).

[Khal Rhygo]

What book is the Exoticist fighter variant in?

Also while reach is good I am a fan of extra attacks

[Greenish]

What book is the Exoticist fighter variant in?It's still in Dragon Mag #310, like it was when it was first brought up. :smallamused:

[Elric VIII]

It's still in Dragon Mag #310, like it was when it was first brought up. :smallamused:

Although some of the other variant classes have been known to move around a bit.

[Elric VIII]

It's still in Dragon Mag #310, like it was when it was first brought up. :smallamused:

Although some of the other variant classes have been known to move around a bit.