Lion of Talisid

[samster712]

Can someone please explain to me what are the major cons of "Lion of Talisid" from BoED and what makes it worse than going straight druid? If there aren't many major cons would anyone recommend it as a good PrC?

[PollyOliver]

Can someone please explain to me what are the major cons of "Lion of Talisid" from BoED and what makes it worse than going straight druid? If there aren't many major cons would anyone recommend it as a good PrC?

I'd say the biggest con is that it pegs you to exalted, which can be restrictive if that's not the kind of character you want to play (or, if your DM is immature or vindictive).

But if you have a mature group and you want to play an exalted character, then I think it's a good deal. You lose poison immunity, face-changing, and lack of aging and two levels off your wild shape progression, and in exchange get some nifty benefits like pounce, scent, free haste a few times per day, exalted companion, which is always useful (unicorns are nice if your DM waives the alignment restriction, otherwise a free celestial creature template doesn't hurt) and an eighth level spell (druid holy word) 3/day as an SLA. I'm actually playing one right now in a play by post campaign. But you won't get all that much out of it until the later levels if you don't do much fighting in wild shape.

[Cog]

Another big con is that it requires Summon Nature's Ally II and a pet as a class feature. Even in splats, I think only two classes that get that: Druid gets pounce through Wildshape instead, and Ranger gets it in a spell. The class doesn't really offer anything much to a Druid, while the Ranger loses out on BAB and free combat feats, and can get access to better wildshaping through a class variant instead.

[Tvtyrant]

Another big con is that it requires Summon Nature's Ally II and a pet as a class feature. Even in splats, I think only two classes that get that: Druid gets pounce through Wildshape instead, and Ranger gets it in a spell. The class doesn't really offer anything much to a Druid, while the Ranger loses out on BAB and free combat feats, and can get access to better wildshaping through a class variant instead.

I wouldn't call medium wildshape "better," but that is just me. I think Lion of Talsid is really good for things like getting pounce on your elephant/dire bear/giant octopus form.

[Cog]

I wouldn't call medium wildshape "better," but that is just me. I think Lion of Talsid is really good for things like getting pounce on your elephant/dire bear/giant octopus form.
The +6 HD advantage in choosing your forms will help a lot, and if you're okay with prestiging to a 3/4 BAB class in the first place, then MoMF will get that versatility back (and then some).

[sonofzeal]

It's good. PrC Tier System rates it a +1, as in "generally improves its entry class substantially without radically affecting game balance". A Druid with Lion of Talisid could quite easily coexist in a game with other pure Druids, but probably has an advantage over them in most situations.

[PollyOliver]

Another big con is that it requires Summon Nature's Ally II and a pet as a class feature. Even in splats, I think only two classes that get that: Druid gets pounce through Wildshape instead, and Ranger gets it in a spell. The class doesn't really offer anything much to a Druid, while the Ranger loses out on BAB and free combat feats, and can get access to better wildshaping through a class variant instead.

Well, he did say to compare to druid 20, so the requirements don't really matter. Really it comes down to whether you value 2 levels of wild shape, poison immunity, face changing, and aging immunity (which if you want to be venerable is nice, I guess, but I don't tend to play characters that old) vs. pounce, scent, some free haste without an apparent action, exalted companion, fear immunity, and leonal's roar 3/day. It's certainly not a landslide, but if I was planning on playing a very ethical character I'd take it.

Also, the thing about pounce through wild-shape is that you have to be in a form that has pounce. If you have pounce separately, you can take forms without pounce (say, dire bear or dire polar bear) and charge in, full attack, and initiate your grapple, which is nice, though not huge. It doesn't offer a ton, but if you do a lot of wild shaping into combat forms (and don't use frozen or aberration), it's enough to justify taking it (again assuming you're already good and don't mind being exalted).

[Tvtyrant]

Pouncing ultrathid ftw.

[samster712]

So in general Lion of talisid is a pretty good PrC if you are looking for a PrC that improves the class and adds flavor but isn't completely overpowered like Planar Shepherd (no brainer), and extremely restrictive like Moonspeaker (only Shifter races). Is that generally correct?

Also two questions: what is BAB and slightly off topic: what the heck is the difference between Cure minor Wounds and Virtue????????

[Cog]

what is BAB
Base Attack Bonus.


what the heck is the difference between Cure minor Wounds and Virtue????????
Regular hit points versus temporary hit points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#temporaryHitPoints).

[Bakkan]

BAB = Base Attack Bonus

Cure Minor Wounds can only increase your hit points to their normal maximum. Virtue, on the other hand, gives you a temporary hit point which can exceed your normal hit points but only lasts a short time.

In short, Virtue is only useful when casting on someone with full HP, and it grants them +1 to their maximum health for a short time.

[Psyren]

It does cost a dead feat to enter (FotC, yuck) but it refunds you later with Exalted Companion, which can be pretty nice - especially since you get the best of both worlds when it comes to buffing your friend. It sucks that you can't get the Unicorn or Blink Dog though.

You also give up 2 effective Wild Shape levels, but I think Pounce, Scent and Fear immunity make up for it.