DN Fear Aura Optimization?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, so going over Dread Necromancer again, I decided to re-read their fear aura, which I had previously thought was a worthless class feature, since most fear auras only affect opponents up to their HD, which almost never happens.

Only Dread Necro's fear aura has no such limitation. 'Hmmm', says I. Perhaps there's a way to turn up the volume on this?

Okay, so the limitations are: 1) it's only 5', and 2) it's only Shaken. Let's find a way to... either take advantage of or augment these.

Are there any ways to increase the radius of a fear area? Are there any ways to increase the fear effect to something more useful? Failing that, are there any other fear effects we can stack for better effect? I know many fear effects explicitly state they cannot stack with Shaken (Fearful Blast, for example).

I'm curious, because it's always having overlapping layers of defense. And making your opponents piss their pants is always lulzworthy.

[Person_Man]

Dilate Aura feat from Fiendish Codex II increases the area of any aura ability.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dilate Aura feat from Fiendish Codex II increases the area of any aura ability.

Really? Nice! That'll not only help this out, but also my other project as well.

Any ways of increasing Shaken to something more useful than a -2?

[Boci]

Dilate Aura feat from Fiendish Codex II increases the area of any aura ability.

Only doubles it though, so 10ft, but one the plus side it can be used 1/encounter. I wonder if you could make an argument for the feat's duration to supercede the origional?


Really? Nice! That'll not only help this out, but also my other project as well.

Any ways of increasing Shaken to something more useful than a -2?

Stacking's the obvious answer, but you already know that. Dread Witch loses a caster level, but may have something good for this.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Only doubles it though, so two rounds, but one the plus side it can be used 1/encounter. I wonder if you could make an argument for the feat's duration to supercede the origional? Hmm... doubling isn't quite so good in this case, as it goes from 5' to 10'. Still, better than nothing, I suppose.


Stacking's the obvious answer, but you already know that. Dread Witch loses a caster level, but may have something good for this.

Hmm... isn't that the one that bypasses immunity to fear effects? This is relevant to this build's interests. What's the source again?

[Boci]

Hmm... isn't that the one that bypasses immunity to fear effects? This is relevant to this build's interests. What's the source again?

Same as the DN, Heroes of Horror.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, so CL loss ahoy, but Avenging Executioner gets radiaating fear when he shanks someone.

Probably better is to get undead somehow and then take the Eviscerator feat chain from Libris Mortis and the Gruesome Finish feat from Exemplars of Evil. You'd have to gish to make it work, but if you're dealing with a little aura like that, you're going to have to mix it up in melee anyway.

[Gnaeus]

Okay, so the limitations are: 1) it's only 5', and 2) it's only Shaken. Let's find a way to... either take advantage of or augment these.

Are there any ways to increase the radius of a fear area? Are there any ways to increase the fear effect to something more useful? Failing that, are there any other fear effects we can stack for better effect? I know many fear effects explicitly state they cannot stack with Shaken (Fearful Blast, for example).

To augment? The two easiest ways are Doom, and Intimidate. My dread necro had a Glaive (for 10 foot reach), with maxed ranks in intimidate and the obvious high charisma, so I would either intimidate and then 5 foot step up to fear aura, or fear aura and then 5 foot step back to intimidate.

To take advantage? Combine with sickening grasp, enervation, bestow curse or charnel touch to get the enemy to a point where they just can't make saving throws. Then SoL. Like the paralyzing gaze from the ghostly visage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, so CL loss ahoy, but Avenging Executioner gets radiaating fear when he shanks someone.

Probably better is to get undead somehow and then take the Eviscerator feat chain from Libris Mortis and the Gruesome Finish feat from Exemplars of Evil. You'd have to gish to make it work, but if you're dealing with a little aura like that, you're going to have to mix it up in melee anyway.

Not so thrilled with that one. I can stand losing a single CL from Dread Witch, considering it re-activates Fear against things immune to it, but that's not really the way I want to go.

From the Book of Bad Latin, we find Daunting Presence. It makes opponents shaken, and while it can't push anyone beyond that, it's a good first shot so that my aura DOES push them to Frightened.

Fell Frighten also makes targets Shaken, and doesn't prevent stacking. There's lots of lower level spells which this could apply to. Makes a good combo as well.

Baleful Moan is pretty much the area effect version of Daunting Presence, but requires Incorporeal subtype, which is hard to attain.

Death Master and Eviscerator don't seem to be very good choices for this build, since it's both feat intensive and the latter requires Improved Critical, and both ONLY activate on a confirmed critical. Even 'crit fisher' builds have troubles with being reliable. Without that sort of optimization, those feats are largely traps.

[mootoall]

What Shneeky, Samurai isn't good enough for you anymore? :smalltongue: Naturally, Imperious Command stacking is your best friend here, but your best move is probably to make one of those weaknesses ... your strengths. *Reveals self as Tyrion Lannister* Seriously though, to get around the aura you just need to find a way to mix it up in melee. Try being a Large race, so that those five feet around you become a bigger distance?

[dextercorvia]

Dreadful Wrath is worth mentioning.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What Shneeky, Samurai isn't good enough for you anymore? :smalltongue: Naturally, Imperious Command stacking is your best friend here, but your best move is probably to make one of those weaknesses ... your strengths. *Reveals self as Tyrion Lannister* Seriously though, to get around the aura you just need to find a way to mix it up in melee. Try being a Large race, so that those five feet around you become a bigger distance?

Let's just say that I like to keep my options open... even if I'm not allowed grenades :smallwink:

I'm not sure if a clothie caster should be mixing it up in melee, although they've got a lot of touch attacks. Better have some kind of defenses, though. Even being Undead, it doesn't turn class level HD into d12's, it just removes any Con bonuses. Granted, with things like Corpsecrafter and Desecrate, there's ways to improve your survivability, but even so...

Intimidate isn't a Dread Necromancer class skill. Besides, anyone can Imperious Command/Never Outnumbered. Samurai just obviated the skill trick and let him spam it. I'm wanting a different vehicle for it this time.

But I'm still wanting to keep the 'army of surprisingly strong undead minions, and lots of lethal spells' feel of Dread Necro. In other words, Samurai was a one-trick pony. He could Intimidate. He was really good at locking things down with it. But that was *ALL* he could do. I'm wanting a T3-4ish caster with minions who also has a surprisingly nasty passive fear ability. Something to keep him from getting hurt by things wanting to close with him.

After all, we're talking about a being so depraved that he not only willingly but eagerly embraces the undead as the epitome of existance, a foul and fell monster whose command of the darkest of arts is as strong as his command of his undead legion. A being who wraps fear around him like a warm cloak on a cold winter night.

A Samurai has to try to be scary, actively trying to intimidate. A Dread Necromancer simply is horrifying... fear wafts off of him like the chill from a storm, and infects those who would dare oppose him.

That's the vibe I'm going for.

[mootoall]

Are you sure DN doesn't have Intimidate as a class skill? I was sure it does. But then again I also thought undeadening turned all your class HD into d12s. And that doesn't change my advice of a Large race either way :smalltongue: It doesn't fix the radius problem, it just makes the radius cover more total space. That plus Dilate will give a not-too-shabby amount of space covered. And actually, with d6 HD and light armor, you're almost as capable as a rogue in combat, at least at low levels.

[Gnaeus]

Are you sure DN doesn't have Intimidate as a class skill? I was sure it does.

I think so also, although I am AFB.


. And actually, with d6 HD and light armor, you're almost as capable as a rogue in combat, at least at low levels.

With your DR and your charnel touch attacks piggybacking on touch spells, I would say that most of the time you are rather more capable than a rogue in combat.

[Thefurmonger]

Isn't there a PRC called (I think) Dread Witch?

IIRC it is all about fear.

[Amphetryon]

Isn't there a PRC called (I think) Dread Witch?

IIRC it is all about fear.

Mentioned twice in the thread already. Ninjas, everywhere!

My copy of Heroes of Horror says Dread Necromancers have Intimidate as a class skill.

[Thefurmonger]

Mentioned twice in the thread already. Ninjas, everywhere!

My copy of Heroes of Horror says Dread Necromancers have Intimidate as a class skill.

Heh, that will teach me to just read the OP. :)

[Optimator]

Isn't there a spell in the Spell Compendium, or even Dragon Magic, that gives you a fear aura or grows and improves an existing fear aura?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Are you sure DN doesn't have Intimidate as a class skill? I was sure it does. But then again I also thought undeadening turned all your class HD into d12s. And that doesn't change my advice of a Large race either way :smalltongue: It doesn't fix the radius problem, it just makes the radius cover more total space. That plus Dilate will give a not-too-shabby amount of space covered. And actually, with d6 HD and light armor, you're almost as capable as a rogue in combat, at least at low levels.

Turns all racial Hit Dice to d12's. A Litch turns all current and future HD to d12's, and most class feature capstones that turn you into undead do the same. However, I don't think this is an explicit 'if you are Undead, you automatically have d12's instead of whatever HD you're suppose to have for your class'.

And yes, I was wrong, they do have Intimidate as a class skill, however I want to have something less... active. I have better things to spend my actions on than making opponents cower. I want to be protected, at least in part, by an aura of fear which prevents opponents from striking blows.

Size increases are a mixed blessing in this case. I don't really want to increase size, because I'm using Dex in my attacks most of the time, and this hurts that. Plus, it makes it harder to slip around combat, since things get in your way easier. Harder to take advantage of gaps in the fight.

Now, another question... the Dread Witch bypasses immunity to Fear... but not necessarily immunity to Mind Affecting. Is there anything that can help me get around that?


Isn't there a spell in the Spell Compendium, or even Dragon Magic, that gives you a fear aura or grows and improves an existing fear aura?
Yes! Aura of Terror (Spell Compendium) extends range of my aura by 10' (to a total of 15'), then the feat lets me double that to 30'. That works nicely. Best of all, it increases DC *AND* increases the effect to Frightened!

This is the answer I am looking for. Too bad it's a 6th level spell. I'll have to do some creative multiclassing to get it from my Advanced Learning. Fortunately, it is a Necro spell, so I can. Too bad I can't find a way to Persist it. Duration is only minutes/level.

[Urpriest]

If you don't want to waste actions on it, why not have your familiar do so? A Ghostly Visage familiar has a +4 racial bonus to intimidate. Coupled with your skill ranks, and perhaps a size increase from Fleshwarper if you want to go that way, it should be able to intimidate pretty much anything you could. Have it ready an action to intimidate anyone who enters your fear aura. Its gaze is passive, so it's not like it's being useless in the meantime.

[Cog]

Turns all racial Hit Dice to d12's.
Nope. It works just like licheningificationitis.

She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nope. It works just like licheningificationitis.

Cite page? I believe I already mentioned that most class abilities (like the Dread Necro capstone) has this phrase. However, not every method of being undead does.

[Cog]

Ah, I thought it was the DN capstone you were talking about, based on the context. That's what I was quoting.

[Hazzardevil]

I'm pretty sure you can get frightful presence as a feat, which means you hane another aura of fear so all youhave to do is shout Boo and your enemies run away. Speaking of which I should try a build that does that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ah, I thought it was the DN capstone you were talking about, based on the context. That's what I was quoting.

If I'm dipping into Dread Witch for bypassing immunity to Fear, then I'm not hitting the capstone anyways. So I was figuring on finding some other way of undeadifying myself. Perhaps the old standby Necropolitian. Or maybe just Tomb Tainted Soul. As long as I get unlimited out of combat healing from Charnel Touch, I'm good.


I'm pretty sure you can get frightful presence as a feat, which means you hane another aura of fear so all youhave to do is shout Boo and your enemies run away. Speaking of which I should try a build that does that.

I'm pretty sure that all the feats that give Frightful Presence have a HD cap equal to your HD. Since you almost never run into anything with fewer or equal HD to your own while adventuring, it is nearly worthless. If you can find one without said qualification, do let me know.

[Boci]

If I'm dipping into Dread Witch for bypassing immunity to Fear, then I'm not hitting the capstone anyways. So I was figuring on finding some other way of undeadifying myself. Perhaps the old standby Necropolitian. Or maybe just Tomb Tainted Soul. As long as I get unlimited out of combat healing from Charnel Touch, I'm good.

The sample necropolitant has d12 hitdie for its wizards levels, even though all it saus on the hitdie entry is "increase to d12".

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The sample necropolitant has d12 hitdie for its wizards levels, even though all it saus on the hitdie entry is "increase to d12".

And we all know how accurate WotC examples traditionally are...

[Boci]

And we all know how accurate WotC examples traditionally are...

Are sample templates as bad as sample PrC?

Are there any other undead templates that will have something with class levels as a sample? Ghost does, but it specifies that allcurrent and future hit die become d12.

Edit: Dam. Mummy Lord uses a cleric's d8 for hit points. I was kinda hoping "undead make class hitdie = d12" had become an unofficial rule via repetition. Gravetouched Ghoul has the same wording as the necropolitant. The writers of Libris Mortis seem to agree with me.

[Keld Denar]

Yes! Aura of Terror (Spell Compendium) extends range of my aura by 10' (to a total of 15'), then the feat lets me double that to 30'. That works nicely. Best of all, it increases DC *AND* increases the effect to Frightened!

This is the answer I am looking for. Too bad it's a 6th level spell. I'll have to do some creative multiclassing to get it from my Advanced Learning. Fortunately, it is a Necro spell, so I can. Too bad I can't find a way to Persist it. Duration is only minutes/level.

Well, Dread Necros get Rebuke Undead, and have no shortage of uses/day given that they are Cha based casters. The problem with DMM is that it only works for DIVINE spells. Enter the Illumian. Illumians have sigilwords which combine to produce various effects. NaenHoon is the sigil you are looking for here. Works almost identical to DMM, EXCEPT that it only takes a number of turn/rebuke attempts equal to the MM (instead of equal+1), AND it has no restriction on Arcane/Divine. It is restricted to only 2/day, but thats enough to persist Aura of Terror and one other spell, assuming you have the rebuke attempts.

Illumians also have that "study of that which was not ment to be known" vibe, which might suit you just fine.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, Dread Necros get Rebuke Undead, and have no shortage of uses/day given that they are Cha based casters. The problem with DMM is that it only works for DIVINE spells. Enter the Illumian. Illumians have sigilwords which combine to produce various effects. NaenHoon is the sigil you are looking for here. Works almost identical to DMM, EXCEPT that it only takes a number of turn/rebuke attempts equal to the MM (instead of equal+1), AND it has no restriction on Arcane/Divine. It is restricted to only 2/day, but thats enough to persist Aura of Terror and one other spell, assuming you have the rebuke attempts.

Illumians also have that "study of that which was not ment to be known" vibe, which might suit you just fine.

There's also Southern Magician feat which lets spells count as either divine or arcane... if I'm going to find some undead to be, I lose the sigil.

[Keld Denar]

Not all undead. Templated undead still carry the traits of their base creature's race. Of particular interest is the Gravetouched Ghoul in Libris Mortis. Its a +2 template, but gives some REALLY good stat boosts, claw/claw/bite attacks with a free Multiattack feat, and paralyzing touch, which is Cha based. Walk up to someone with your fear aura, stack on a healthy -6 penalty for being paniced, and then make with the bad touch for a hefty save. Take Improved Paralysis (LM) for a +4 to your DC.

The sample Human GTG Monk6 has 9 feats. Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Imp Grapple, Improved Init, Imp Trip, Imp UAS, Mobility, Multiattack, and Spring Attack.

Imp UAS and Imp Grapple are 1st level Monk bonus feats.
Deflect Arrows is the 2nd level Monk bonus feat
Imp Trip is the 6th level Monk bonus feat
Multiattack is the GTG bonus feat

That leaves Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Improved Init.
A 6th level character should have 3 feats (1,3,6), but this former human GTG has 4, which means he retains his racial feature of a bonus feat. If a human GTG would retain his bonus feat, an Illumian GTG would retain his power sigils.

[Fax Celestis]

What about Alternative Source Spell?

[Boci]

Not all undead. Templated undead still carry the traits of their base creature's race. Of particular interest is the Gravetouched Ghoul in Libris Mortis. Its a +2 template, but gives some REALLY good stat boosts, claw/claw/bite attacks with a free Multiattack feat, and paralyzing touch, which is Cha based. Walk up to someone with your fear aura, stack on a healthy -6 penalty for being paniced, and then make with the bad touch for a hefty save. Take Improved Paralysis (LM) for a +4 to your DC.

The sample Human GTG Monk6 has 9 feats. Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Imp Grapple, Improved Init, Imp Trip, Imp UAS, Mobility, Multiattack, and Spring Attack.

Imp UAS and Imp Grapple are 1st level Monk bonus feats.
Deflect Arrows is the 2nd level Monk bonus feat
Imp Trip is the 6th level Monk bonus feat
Multiattack is the GTG bonus feat

That leaves Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Improved Init.
A 6th level character should have 3 feats (1,3,6), but this former human GTG has 4, which means he retains his racial feature of a bonus feat. If a human GTG would retain his bonus feat, an Illumian GTG would retain his power sigils.

Problem is, its unclear if class levels the GTG later gains also become d12. I'm pretty sure they are, sinced as flawed as they are, sample character's are still RAW, unless you can point out what rule they break.

[Keld Denar]

Well, that was in reference to the fact that some undead keep the racial traits of their previous living form.

GTG does have the clause that states that "all HD become d12s", but as others have noted, whether or not thats the general rule or a specific rule that only applies where indicated (and it is indicated in every source I can find) is unclear.

Fortunately, the other good undead template, Necropolitan, also has the "increase do d12s" clause, which is good. The wierd thing is that the Human Necropolitan Wizard seems to have lost his Human bonus feat, though. He has 4 feats. Scribe Scroll is his 1st level Wizard bonus feat, and Brew Potion is probably his 5th level Wizard bonus. That leaves Combat Casting and Magical Aptitude as his 1st and 3rd level feats...where is his Human bonus feat? He also doesn't appear to have his Human bonus skill points...

[Boci]

Well, that was in reference to the fact that some undead keep the racial traits of their previous living form.

GTG does have the clause that states that "all HD become d12s", but as others have noted, whether or not thats the general rule or a specific rule that only applies where indicated (and it is indicated in every source I can find) is unclear.

Fortunately, the other good undead template, Necropolitan, also has the "increase do d12s" clause, which is good. The wierd thing is that the Human Necropolitan Wizard seems to have lost his Human bonus feat, though. He has 4 feats. Scribe Scroll is his 1st level Wizard bonus feat, and Brew Potion is probably his 5th level Wizard bonus. That leaves Combat Casting and Magical Aptitude as his 1st and 3rd level feats...where is his Human bonus feat? He also doesn't appear to have his Human bonus skill points...

Also, all core undead templates have the clause "All current and future hitdie" instead.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not all undead. Templated undead still carry the traits of their base creature's race. Of particular interest is the Gravetouched Ghoul in Libris Mortis. Its a +2 template, but gives some REALLY good stat boosts, claw/claw/bite attacks with a free Multiattack feat, and paralyzing touch, which is Cha based. Walk up to someone with your fear aura, stack on a healthy -6 penalty for being paniced, and then make with the bad touch for a hefty save. Take Improved Paralysis (LM) for a +4 to your DC.

The sample Human GTG Monk6 has 9 feats. Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Imp Grapple, Improved Init, Imp Trip, Imp UAS, Mobility, Multiattack, and Spring Attack.

Imp UAS and Imp Grapple are 1st level Monk bonus feats.
Deflect Arrows is the 2nd level Monk bonus feat
Imp Trip is the 6th level Monk bonus feat
Multiattack is the GTG bonus feat

That leaves Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Improved Init.
A 6th level character should have 3 feats (1,3,6), but this former human GTG has 4, which means he retains his racial feature of a bonus feat. If a human GTG would retain his bonus feat, an Illumian GTG would retain his power sigils.

+2 LA is pretty harsh for a caster already losing a CL from a PrC. Still, the stat bonuses are pretty nifty. In all, I'd rather be a Necropolitian for this build.

[dextercorvia]

I said it before, but I was in a hurry. Dreadful Wrath is a regional feat from PGtF that forces a will save on any enemy within 20' whenever you charge, full attack or cast a spell (some targeting guidelines apply). The save is 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha, which should be fairly respectable on a DN. Failure makes them shaken. It doesn't stack with itself (because of a 24 hour immunity), but it doesn't prevent stacking with other effects.

[Keld Denar]

Dreadful Wrath also doesn't have the "their HD > your HD" clause, unlike Frightful Presence or other similar abilities.