Rich Burlew's Campaign setting

[Forbiddenwar]

Does anyone know if Rich ever published his campaign setting as a third party book? After reading his modifications on skills and some of his Prestige classes, I'd be very interested in buying his setting.

[Cog]

Does anyone know if Rich ever published his campaign setting as a third party book? After reading his modifications on skills and some of his Prestige classes, I'd be very interested in buying his setting.
As I recall, the rules of the contest keep any submissions from being released independently.

[Archwizard]

Yes, you if mean the one that came in second to Eberron in WotC's contest, Rich is not allowed to discuss or publish it, WotC owns it now.

From Rich's FAQ:

Q: What was your setting like? Will it ever be published?

A: Sorry, Wizards owns the rights to that setting now, and it is up to them whether they ever wish to discuss it, much less publish it. I am under a strict Non-Disclosure Agreement not to discuss it. Top

[Mystic Muse]

Yes, you if mean the one that came in second to Eberron in WotC's contest, Rich is not allowed to discuss or publish it, WotC owns it now.

Which sucks because they probably aren't ever going to use it.

[Ozreth]

What a waste. If given the chance I probably wouldn't have submitted anything. If I truly thought my CS was good enough for publishing I would have pursued it on my own.

It's not worth the risk of losing everything. Although I guess in the end you could just drastically modify it.

[gbprime]

What a waste. If given the chance I probably wouldn't have submitted anything. If I truly thought my CS was good enough for publishing I would have pursued it on my own.

It's not worth the risk of losing everything. Although I guess in the end you could just drastically modify it.

You invented it once, nothing stopping you from inventing something else.

I submitted an entry as well. Would that I got far enough to warrant a non-disclosure agreement. :smallwink:

[Forbiddenwar]

I was considering that now that Burlew is an award winning author with many successful books under his belt(Or am I delusional), perhaps WotC can be "encouraged" to allow its publication. How would burlew respond to a fan petition to WotC clamoring for his setting?

I would also love to see, after the final OOTS book, The OOTS setting published. imagine running an adventure in the alleys of azure city (pre OOTS visit) and having you characters hear rumors of a secret organization in control of everything.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I was considering that now that Burlew is an award winning author with many successful books under his belt(Or am I delusional), perhaps WotC can be "encouraged" to allow its publication. How would burlew respond to a fan petition to WotC clamoring for his setting?

I would also love to see, after the final OOTS book, The OOTS setting published. imagine running an adventure in the alleys of azure city (pre OOTS visit) and having you characters hear rumors of a secret organization in control of everything.

No, it would be after the events of OotS, that's what I would want.

[gbprime]

I was considering that now that Burlew is an award winning author with many successful books under his belt(Or am I delusional), perhaps WotC can be "encouraged" to allow its publication. How would burlew respond to a fan petition to WotC clamoring for his setting?

The settings they've obtained rights on might be rolled out when they want a major new release of product for either a version change or a sales figures rally. They are in the business of making money on this stuff, after all. So until they start an advertising blitz or come out with 4.5 or 5.0 or 2*pi Edition, i think we can count on Rich not being able to talk about his work.

[Aemoh87]

To bad no one has it posted on the net somewhere where it could circulate uncontrollably, being tossed around by those no good dirty internet pirates.

I'm a sad pirate... I mean panda, I'm a sad panda.

Any ideas what it was like though?

[Lateral]

I think he mentioned something about it "making good use of elves" somewhere.

[subject42]

I think he mentioned something about it "making good use of elves" somewhere.

You mean he has a dwarven stronghold constructed entirely out of elves?

[Bayar]

You mean he has a dwarven stronghold constructed entirely out of elves?

Elves. The building blocks of fortresses.

[Cog]

Alas, Wall of Elf did not make it to the Spell Compendium.

[Sinfonian]

Alas, Wall of Elf did not make it to the Spell Compendium.

I understand that the spell as proposed forced a saving throw to not be afflicted by cancer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI) by all those interacting with the wall.

[AslanCross]

Elves. The building blocks of fortresses.

....hilariously enough, Eberron (which the Giant's setting went up against) does that too. :smallbiggrin: (Fort Bones is made up of the bones of elves)

[Metahuman1]

Hell, I just wanna see the details on Dashing swordsman!

[Darth Stabber]

Hell, I just wanna see the details on Dashing swordsman!

Well according to the comic, the dashing swordsman PRC comes from a third party book, which could mean that it was not part of his submission to WotC.

On a differnt note, if the campaign setting rights to the OotS verse are WotC property, I willing to bet a sizable amount of money that it will never see print. OotS is heavily entwinned with 3.5, and it would only make sense as a 3.5 release, if they released it as a 4th edition setting, it wouldn't really be OotS. Now that I have said that, do you know what the main competition for WotC's flagship RPG is? It's previous version! They are not going to release a blessed thing that might make someone choose to continue 3.5 over converting to the new rules. M:tG rotates cards out every 2 years to keep people buying carboard, do you really think that RPG development is so different from TCG development? Any new 3.5 product would hurt the sales of 4e as far as WotC is concerned and therefore will never happen. Ticks me off almost as bad a White Wolf ending all o their RPGs and printing new ones bleached of all flavor. White Wolf, WotC, AEG, they all had good RPGs out, the "reinvented them" without anything people liked about the previous version. Seriously, the path to godhood used to be an amazing Final quest tha even if the player did every thing right had a 99% of just dieing ( and a .5% percent chance at becoming a vestige, with the rest being success), while 4e makes it a give me.

[Feytalist]

As has been previously stated, Giant's setting was up against what eventually became Eberron. Just imagine how good it must've been.

What's the chance of the forums as a group piling in and buying the rights to the setting, then releasing it as Open Game Content?

Probably a pipe dream, but I really kinda want to see it.

Anybody know the going rate for a whole bloody world?

[Darth Stabber]

As has been previously stated, Giant's setting was up against what eventually became Eberron. Just imagine how good it must've been.

What's the chance of the forums as a group piling in and buying the rights to the setting, then releasing it as Open Game Content?

Probably a pipe dream, but I really kinda want to see it.

Anybody know the going rate for a whole bloody world?

Kinda perpetually broke, but you can put me down for $30 USD.

[Feytalist]

Kinda perpetually broke, but you can put me down for $30 USD.

Heh, it's a start.

I'm actually kinda serious about this now. Any way we can put up a kickstarter page or something for this? I feel we should somehow give something back to Giant, even if it is only his intellectual property.

Another thing, I'm not even actually in the US, so this will be slightly difficult for me to manage by myself. And I don't want to start without knowing that there is some support behind this.

Anyone else think this is viable?

[TroubleBrewing]

It's... It's not a bad thought. Any way we can contact WotC and find out what they'd sell it for?

[dextercorvia]

Probably a contract that we would only publish it under the GSL. No fixed amount of money (that we could raise) is going to be worth a hit on 4e (and future) sales.

[J.Gellert]

It's... It's not a bad thought. Any way we can contact WotC and find out what they'd sell it for?

Probably too high; however, encouraging someone to leak it should be cheaper.

What would you Lawful Good folks do... I wonder.

On another note, I'm pretty sure that if Rich seriously wanted/cared/could publish a setting (any setting, or that one setting with serial numbers filed off) he would already have.

[Yuki Akuma]

Protip: the OOTS setting is not to setting Rich Burlew entered into the contest.

Obviously. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to publish OOTS.

[Darth Stabber]

Protip: the OOTS setting is not to setting Rich Burlew entered into the contest.

Obviously. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to publish OOTS.

While that point is valid, I would still buy a champaign setting authored by theGiant in a heartbeat. Besides, depending on how lawyers hashed things out, it still could be the OotS setting with a specific allowance clause for his web comic.

[Mystic Muse]

You could ask WOTC how much it would cost, but I highly doubt that will go anywhere. I'm not even sure if Rich wants it to go anywhere.

I'm not trying to speak for Rich here, I'm just saying he might not care anymore.

[Feytalist]

As stated, I don't really care if its OotS or not. It's just a shame that something such as this (from someone we know is exceptionally good at this sort of thing) will probably never see the light of day.

If it does come out under OGC, it should not cut into WotC's profit margin at all. Although, it probably will be too expensive for us.

The easiest would be to email someone at WotC and hope for a response. The best thing do to would be to actually call, slog through the inevitable admin and find someone knowledgeable to actually talk to to find out the procedure, if this was to happen at all.

[The Glyphstone]

Considering they probably have a special whipping post in the basement for whoever came up with the SRD and the resultant problems it created for the marketing/sales of 4E, I can't imagine they would want to release anything even remotely tied to 3E that could be used to compete.

[NecroRick]

Considering they probably have a special whipping post in the basement for whoever came up with the SRD and the resultant problems it created for the marketing/sales of 4E, I can't imagine they would want to release anything even remotely tied to 3E that could be used to compete.

The only problem with SRD is that it is, by definition, unfixable. :(

[The Glyphstone]

The only problem with SRD is that it is, by definition, unfixable. :(

Exactly - they can't take it back, so it'll forever be out there as a resource for people who want to make stuff for 3.0/5/P, and thus siphoning customers, implicitly or otherwise, away from 4/5/Pi^2 E. At least, that's how business executives who aren't gamers (I.e., all of Hasbro and a good portion of WotC's upper ranks) think.

[Feytalist]

Oh well, it was worth a shot.

Might still be worth it to check out, anyway. If someone feels up to it.

[Darth Stabber]

Oh well, it was worth a shot.

Might still be worth it to check out, anyway. If someone feels up to it.

Unless somebody has friend/contact/relatve @WotC I'll take point on this.

[Hazzardevil]

Is Richs setting the New world or OoTs? I'm not definetly sure really. I know next to nothing about it.

[dextercorvia]

Is Richs setting the New world or OoTs? I'm not definetly sure really. I know next to nothing about it.

It's likely neither.

[Veyr]

Is Richs setting the New world or OoTs? I'm not definetly sure really. I know next to nothing about it.
It's neither, it had to be something completely new for the contest and he wasn't allowed to talk about it after the contest. Literally no one knows, aside from Rich, personal friends of his (presumably he had discussed it with people, to bounce ideas off of, etc., before submitting it and signing the NDA), and Wizards themselves.

[Mystic Muse]

Is Richs setting the New world or OoTs? I'm not definetly sure really. I know next to nothing about it.

I don't know if he's even said what it's called. It can't be OOTS and it can't be the New world though.

[Cicciograna]

I think that Non-Disclosure Agreement means that it is completely taboo, for him to even mention it in casual conversation online, lest publish pieces of the material as an online comic or a series of articles.

[Chess435]

I live within driving distance of WoTC HQ, so we could gather together a group and kick down their door or something..... :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Rights to intellectual property can be bought, maybe a consortium of fans should pool resources and try and purchase it from Wizards of the Coast.

[Cog]

Rights to intellectual property can be bought, maybe a consortium of fans should pool resources and try and purchase it from Wizards of the Coast.
That's exactly what was already suggested.

They can only be bought if they're for sale, though, and I agree that it's doubtful WotC would want to do that.

[tonberrian]

That's exactly what was already suggested.

They can only be bought if they're for sale, though, and I agree that it's doubtful WotC would want to do that.

Everything's got a price. The question is what you're willing to pay.

[Ravens_cry]

That's exactly what was already suggested.

They can only be bought if they're for sale, though, and I agree that it's doubtful WotC would want to do that.
The worst that can happen is they will say no, and you will be back exactly where you started.

[Veyr]

They probably keep track of stuff like that in order to gauge interest in things, too.

[gbprime]

Everything's got a price. The question is what you're willing to pay.

Well that's just it. How much profit did Hasbro make off of Eberron? Millions. They'll take that into account when selling off unused intellectual property, and the fact that any small scale competitor could not possibly make that much profit and would be hard pressed to match their production values.

So I'd wager it'll be a LOT more to buy it than you think it will.

[Cog]

Also, they can't afford for it to be popular. That there'd be such a desire for 3.5 content when they've switched over to 4.0 would be very awkward for whoever in the company was responsible for that decision. So, the more popular that material looks to be, the less likely they'd be to release it, and so our collective interest is self-defeating.

[Veyr]

Our interest might convince them that it would be worthwhile to do themselves.

[Honest Tiefling]

There's also another problem with selling off the property. A lot of their staff probably read the contest submissions (I would hope so!). And the human brain likes to steal stuff. No, I am not kidding, people have problems remembering if ideas are theirs or not, it is called cryptomnesia. Yes, they could get a lump sum for the property, maybe move some 3.5 books along. But they also encounter legal issues of trying to remember where every idea came from. I imagine that's part of the reason they say on the IP for so long.

[Ravens_cry]

Also, they can't afford for it to be popular. That there'd be such a desire for 3.5 content when they've switched over to 4.0 would be very awkward for whoever in the company was responsible for that decision. So, the more popular that material looks to be, the less likely they'd be to release it, and so our collective interest is self-defeating.
Eh, Pathfinder exists with its own campaign setting. From what I understand, Paizo and WotC get along pretty well on an employee level.

[Honest Tiefling]

Did the Pathfinder people show their campaign setting to WoTC before hand? I thought Pathfinder just got the right to republish certain mechanics and classes.

[Kobold-Bard]

There's only one course of action that has a hope of working.

Someone from the Playground has to seduce the person who's decision it would be to release the setting. They must make this person fall so much in love with them that not doing them this tiny favour would be unimaginable. Then once they have it they need to get it online as quickly as possible before WotC can do anything about it.

So...any volunteers?

[Forbiddenwar]

I love the kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/) idea. The setting is worthless to WotC until they sell it or publish it. And since it was created for 3.0, the possibility of them publishing it diminished daily. At hasn't made WotC a dime in the last 10 years, and if they decide to sit on it, it probably won't make them a dime for another 100. IP rights have sold for as little as $50 in the past. (Superman, believe it or not, also whenever a company needs to improve their cash flow and want to unload something)
I'd put $50 in myself, and kickstarters have raised millions.

However, before someone makes a Kickstarter proposal, someone needs to:

Make Sure Rich Burlew is okay with his fans buying his IP rights back from WotC. He may hate the idea, he may have taken what he learned and then created a Bigger and Better campaign setting in OOTS (Sure to be released after the final book to prevent spoilers) and will not want to revisit his past mistakes, or see them plastered over some website.

Contact WotC: With the possiblity of buying the IP rights or creating a fan petition for them to publish it under 4.0. I'd convert to 4.0 if it means playing his setting.

Once that is done, we will know if we can get Rich to edit and publish it, or if we can get his permission to release it freely (Yes, I know that if we own the IP rights, we don't need his permission. However, it still seems the honorable thing to do.)

[Cog]

Eh, Pathfinder exists with its own campaign setting. From what I understand, Paizo and WotC get along pretty well on an employee level.
Is that campaign setting in any way WotC material? I haven't studied PF much, but my understanding is that the only thing they draw from WotC is the OGL material, which WotC can't do a thing about. Also, the employee level is not where a decision regarding releasing this material will be made.

[Whammydill]

How's this for a kick in the pants:

If Rich's game won the contest, we'd likely have Dungeons and Dragons Online based in his game world. Now, I like Eberron alright, but I think an online game world by Rich online would just be so much better.

Heck, I'd play an MMO with the OOTS world in a heartbeat.

[zyborg]

How's this for a kick in the pants:

If Rich's game won the contest, we'd likely have Dungeons and Dragons Online based in his game world. Now, I like Eberron alright, but I think an online game world by Rich online would just be so much better.

Heck, I'd play an MMO with the OOTS world in a heartbeat.

Same here. I'd totally love an OOTS game of some sort. The OOTS world is amazingly well-designed for a strip that started about D&D rules jokes and contains a population made up of stick figures.

[Veyr]

However, before someone makes a Kickstarter proposal, someone needs to:

Make Sure Rich Burlew is okay with his fans buying his IP rights back from WotC. He may hate the idea, he may have taken what he learned and then created a Bigger and Better campaign setting in OOTS (Sure to be released after the final book to prevent spoilers) and will not want to revisit his past mistakes, or see them plastered over some website.
This. Seriously, it really can't go any further without this.

[Darth Stabber]

I think pathfinder's existance is likely due to wizards taking dungeon mag and dragon mag away from them and paizo getting some kind of consessions to develop a product to replace their revenue stream.

[Veyr]

No, Pathfinder is literally just using the OGL that Wizards developed. Wizards now regrets how open the OGL was, and for 4E has the GSL which is far, far more restrictive.

[Darth Stabber]

So 3.5 is the netscape navigator of RPGs, and Pathfinder is Firefox?

[Veyr]

That analogy fails on a number of levels.

[Jeraa]

Parts of the setting may have already been released. Eberron had things changed/added/removed from the initial submission before it was published. If I remember right, Warforged weren't even in the setting that was submitted. As far as we know, they were actually used in Richs setting.

So for all we know, those other two settings WotC now own may have been cut up and dissected, then reassembled in Eberron or other materials.

[Hiro Protagonest]

How's this for a kick in the pants:

If Rich's game won the contest, we'd likely have Dungeons and Dragons Online based in his game world. Now, I like Eberron alright, but I think an online game world by Rich online would just be so much better.

Heck, I'd play an MMO with the OOTS world in a heartbeat.


Same here. I'd totally love an OOTS game of some sort. The OOTS world is amazingly well-designed for a strip that started about D&D rules jokes and contains a population made up of stick figures.

I know it's already been said before, but the OotS setting is not the setting he entered in the contest. Otherwise he would've had to pay WotC a ton of money to buy back the rights to the setting.

[Whammydill]

I know it's already been said before, but the OotS setting is not the setting he entered in the contest. Otherwise he would've had to pay WotC a ton of money to buy back the rights to the setting.

Wasn't implying that it was. I'm well aware that the two are different. I was saying I would love to have had a chance to play an MMO based on Rich's submitted setting and that I'd even enjoy an OOTS one.

[Kobold-Bard]

Wasn't implying that it was. I'm well aware that the two are different. I was saying I would love to have had a chance to play an MMO based on Rich's submitted setting and that I'd even enjoy an OOTS one.

You know nothing about the Giant's submittion, how do you know you'd love to play an MMO based on it?

[Whammydill]

You know nothing about the Giant's submittion, how do you know you'd love to play an MMO based on it?

Because I choose to?

If it came in second behind Eberron, which I think is good but the theme isn't my cup of tea. Second ahead of who knows how many, Also, I like all the material posted in the "Gaming" Tab over there to the left, under stories and above forum, that Rich posted. I think it's good quality stuff. Since I like the writing and theme of OOTS, I can PERSONALLY infer that I would like to have had a chance to play an MMO based on Rich's could-have-been world.

[Person_Man]

Considering they probably have a special whipping post in the basement for whoever came up with the SRD and the resultant problems it created for the marketing/sales of 4E, I can't imagine they would want to release anything even remotely tied to 3E that could be used to compete.

Keep in mind that in 2000 when 3.0 D&D and the SRD were published, D&D was a moribund property which hadn't seen serious sales in 5-10ish years, and WotC was a plucky young company which was not yet owned by Hasbro that had no real book publishing experience.

At the time SRD was seen as an Evil plot to uncut the competition. AND IT WORKED.

Other companies quickly discovered that they could make more money by publishing a d20 supplement instead of their own rules, because there is a fairly high threshold for buying, learning, and convincing your friends to play a new tabletop game, whereas everyone had easy access to the SRD and had learned how to play it because it was free and has the cachet of being Dungeons and Dragons. At it's height, D&D comprised roughly half of all RPG related sales, and WotC reaped the lion's share of those profits because anyone who was buying a 3rd party book also ended up buying WotC books. And it was all because of the SRD.

Now you are correct to say that the SRD/OGL is the biggest competitor to 4E, and now Hasbro isn't seeing any of that money. But that's because Hasbro botched the marketing and roll out of 4E and chose not to give it an SRD. It wasn't because of the existence of the SRD in the first place.

[FMArthur]

One thing to keep in mind is that if there is enough interest to generate enough funds for a serious acquisition of the content, why would they sell it? They keep these properties because of the possibility of future revenue, and would be only too happy to find out that it actually pays off to keep these things. The best you could hope for is WotC outsourcing development of the setting to the people interested and letting the funds the supporters raised supply the cost of that, but retaining its grip on the IP to take a portion of the profit. That's not necessarily a horrible thing and its fruit might wind up as a happy collaboration between fans and big ol' Scrooge, but don't expect full freedom with the rights to change what you want.

[The Glyphstone]

Now you are correct to say that the SRD/OGL is the biggest competitor to 4E, and now Hasbro isn't seeing any of that money. But that's because Hasbro botched the marketing and roll out of 4E and chose not to give it an SRD. It wasn't because of the existence of the SRD in the first place.

Well yeah - I was saying that with their current marketing strategy, they're kicking themselves for what was a good idea at the time. The guy who created the SRD had a plush penthouse office with all the drinks and dice he could ask for while 3.X was king; they only kicked him downstairs when 4E rolled out and it started being a pain instead of a cash cow.

[Mystic Muse]

Well yeah - I was saying that with their current marketing strategy, they're kicking themselves for what was a good idea at the time. The guy who created the SRD had a plush penthouse office with all the drinks and dice he could ask for while 3.X was king; they only kicked him downstairs when 4E rolled out and it started being a pain instead of a cash cow.

You know a suspicious amount about this.....

GLYPHSTONE IS WITH WOTC!:smalleek:

*runs away*

[The Glyphstone]

Being a janitor for WotC is not as much fun as you think. Everytime a new splatbook comes out, sooooo much blood to mop up.

[super dark33]

Being a janitor for WotC is not as much fun as you think. Everytime a new splatbook comes out, sooooo much blood to mop up.

who is killed? the orginal author of the book, who doesnt want a change ont it or a random meintenence worker?

[Person_Man]

One thing to keep in mind is that if there is enough interest to generate enough funds for a serious acquisition of the content, why would they sell it?

There is some precedent. Pre-Hasbro, WotC allowed fans to continue Darksun, Planescape, and Spelljammer (unprofitable 2d edition settings with cult followings). But post-Hasbro, I don't see it happening unless someone walks up to them with a big bag of money.

Of course we could just buy the rights to D&D and all of it's intellectual properties in their entirety. WotC paid $25 million for it back in 1997. Hasbro bought WotC for $325 million in 1999, but that's largely because they wanted the patent on collectible card games. 4E has had declining sales, their online efforts have been a money pit, their talks with the Cartoon Network for a new cartoon fell through, and Daggerdale is bombing. In this economy you could probably get D&D for a mere $10 million.

Step 1: File the paperwork for an LLC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability_company) startup. Promise to put all D&D intellectual property up in and SRD on the web, and allow anyone to publish anything related to or including that information in exchange for a 5% gross licensing fee.

Step 2: Sell stock to get the capital to buy D&D. Follow through on your promises.

Step 3: Profit!

If you fail, the company files for bankruptcy and you lose nothing but the licensing fees to start the company. It'll be just like the 90's all over again!

[The Glyphstone]

who is killed? the orginal author of the book, who doesnt want a change ont it or a random meintenence worker?

They playtest new weapons and powers for 'balance' on the interns.

[MammonAzrael]

I would be willing to support something like this, but many good points have been brought up. Most notably that WotC and Hasbro would see enough interest to purchase the rights to b enough interest to keep it for the future.

More than anything, I would like to hear how Rich feels about all this, or if anything has been attempted in the past.

[Darth Stabber]

Well yeah - I was saying that with their current marketing strategy, they're kicking themselves for what was a good idea at the time. The guy who created the SRD had a plush penthouse office with all the drinks and dice he could ask for while 3.X was king; they only kicked him downstairs when 4E rolled out and it started being a pain instead of a cash cow.

Modern corporations do not plan for several years ahead, the plan to give their stockholders the biggest increase in value in the next quarter. I don't know what WotC's degree of autonomy is, but unless the link purely fiduciary, we're going to end up on the phone with hasbro suit, and we will likely tell us, in polite terms, to sit and rotate. That being said I am still going to place a call tonight, and if I get somewhere with it, I'll PM Mr. Burlew to see if we have his blessing.

[dextercorvia]

There is some precedent. Pre-Hasbro, WotC allowed fans to continue Darksun, Planescape, and Spelljammer (unprofitable 2d edition settings with cult followings). But post-Hasbro, I don't see it happening unless someone walks up to them with a big bag of money.

Of course we could just buy the rights to D&D and all of it's intellectual properties in their entirety. WotC paid $25 million for it back in 1997. Hasbro bought WotC for $325 million in 1999, but that's largely because they wanted the patent on collectible card games. 4E has had declining sales, their online efforts have been a money pit, their talks with the Cartoon Network for a new cartoon fell through, and Daggerdale is bombing. In this economy you could probably get D&D for a mere $10 million.

Step 1: File the paperwork for an LLC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability_company) startup. Promise to put all D&D intellectual property up in and SRD on the web, and allow anyone to publish anything related to or including that information in exchange for a 5% gross licensing fee.

Step 2: Sell stock to get the capital to buy D&D. Follow through on your promises.

Step 3: Profit!

If you fail, the company files for bankruptcy and you lose nothing but the licensing fees to start the company. It'll be just like the 90's all over again!

This. white space

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm with Person_Man on this.

... Anybody actually willing to give this a shot?

[Darth Stabber]

There is some precedent. Pre-Hasbro, WotC allowed fans to continue Darksun, Planescape, and Spelljammer (unprofitable 2d edition settings with cult followings). But post-Hasbro, I don't see it happening unless someone walks up to them with a big bag of money.

Of course we could just buy the rights to D&D and all of it's intellectual properties in their entirety. WotC paid $25 million for it back in 1997. Hasbro bought WotC for $325 million in 1999, but that's largely because they wanted the patent on collectible card games. 4E has had declining sales, their online efforts have been a money pit, their talks with the Cartoon Network for a new cartoon fell through, and Daggerdale is bombing. In this economy you could probably get D&D for a mere $10 million.

Step 1: File the paperwork for an LLC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability_company) startup. Promise to put all D&D intellectual property up in and SRD on the web, and allow anyone to publish anything related to or including that information in exchange for a 5% gross licensing fee.

Step 2: Sell stock to get the capital to buy D&D. Follow through on your promises.

Step 3: Profit!

If you fail, the company files for bankruptcy and you lose nothing but the licensing fees to start the company. It'll be just like the 90's all over again!

I'm willing to go in on this if someone else will take point. I don't have a lot of money, but I am very good at paperwork.

[Darth Stabber]

Actually, is there anyway we can try to drop the value of the D&D IP that can be easily rectified upon player take over?

[Darth Stabber]

There is some precedent. Pre-Hasbro, WotC allowed fans to continue Darksun, Planescape, and Spelljammer (unprofitable 2d edition settings with cult followings). But post-Hasbro, I don't see it happening unless someone walks up to them with a big bag of money.

They also allowed their biggest competitor at the time (white wolf) to publish an updated version of Ravenloft.

[Kobold-Bard]

This. white space

This of course relies on Person_Man is right in his valuation of D&D and WotC's willingness to release it.

Are the good people of the Playground planning to buy D&D? I feel the desire to see the Giant's setting may have spiralled somewhat.

[InaVegt]

This of course relies on Person_Man is right in his valuation of D&D and WotC's willingness to release it.

Are the good people of the Playground planning to buy D&D? I feel the desire to see the Giant's setting may have spiralled somewhat.

If I had the money, I'd definitely buy D&D.

[Darth Stabber]

This of course relies on Person_Man is right in his valuation of D&D and WotC's willingness to release it.

Are the good people of the Playground planning to buy D&D? I feel the desire to see the Giant's setting may have spiralled somewhat.

Why buy the milk, when you can get the cow for a little more?

[Seerow]

The real question is what do the GitP forums do with D&D once they own it?

[Honest Tiefling]

My money is on 'argue a lot'. Sure, I haven't been here a long time, but it is in my opinion that there are definitely more then seven people here, therefore, getting a consensus will be downright impossible.

[Kobold-Bard]

If I had the money, I'd definitely buy D&D.

You and me both.


Why buy the milk, when you can get the cow for a little more?

Never said it was a bad plan (I'm unqualified to say whether it is or not). It just seems slightly bizarre this is where this thread ended up.

[Yuki Akuma]

I fully endorse this plan.

Because it'd be hilarious.

[Kobold-Bard]

My money is on 'argue a lot'. Sure, I haven't been here a long time, but it is in my opinion that there are definitely more then seven people here, therefore, getting a consensus will be downright impossible.

Oh very much so. The whole "which edition should new publications be" debate alone would be insane.

And apparently Chess435 has taken the first step by asking the Giant's permission (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11174565).

Am I the only one still treating this as a joke idea rather than one that might actually happen?

[Mystic Muse]

Am I the only one still treating this as a joke idea rather than one that might actually happen?

No, you aren't. I am too.

[Honest Tiefling]

I would hope that The Giant will take this as a compliment, either way.

[TroubleBrewing]

Am I the only one still treating this as a joke idea rather than one that might actually happen?

I'm still kind of incredulous that this even got as far as it did.

I mean, I won't be heartbroken if it doesn't happen. But if it does happen, and the nerds mobilize, I'll be right at the front of the wave.

[Ozreth]

Keep in mind that in 2000 when 3.0 D&D and the SRD were published, D&D was a moribund property which hadn't seen serious sales in 5-10ish years, and WotC was a plucky young company which was not yet owned by Hasbro that had no real book publishing experience.


Young? They had been a company for around 10 years at that point and had been publishing magic the gathering from the start which was on top of the world by the mid 90's.

[Darth Stabber]

I'm still kind of incredulous that this even got as far as it did.

I mean, I won't be heartbroken if it doesn't happen. But if it does happen, and the nerds mobilize, I'll be right at the front of the wave.

Now, is anyone talking seriously here? I am all over the idea of The Playground owning D&D, and I would be willing to offer my time to this effort. Who here is actually serious? Like putting together a proposal serious. This is a real opportunity here. The US economy is down meaning companies are cutting the fat, and D&D is seriously under-performing, this gives us a window of theoretical feasibility. We risk very little (thank you LLC, laws), and we stand to gain control (collectively) over the game we spend sooo much time arguing over, some of us could make D&D our jobs.

[Darth Stabber]

Oh very much so. The whole "which edition should new publications be" debate alone would be insane.


The answer to that question is: both. I don't care for 4e, but when support for 3.5 dropped it seriously depressed me, and I don't want the 4e players to have to go through that.

[dextercorvia]

Actually, is there anyway we can try to drop the value of the D&D IP that can be easily rectified upon player take over?

Convince the public to stop purchasing 4e. Revenues drop off...


Now, is anyone talking seriously here? I am all over the idea of The Playground owning D&D, and I would be willing to offer my time to this effort. Who here is actually serious? Like putting together a proposal serious. This is a real opportunity here. The US economy is down meaning companies are cutting the fat, and D&D is seriously under-performing, this gives us a window of theoretical feasibility. We risk very little (thank you LLC, laws), and we stand to gain control (collectively) over the game we spend sooo much time arguing over, some of us could make D&D our jobs.

I am as serious as I can be when discussing millions of dollars.

[Kobold-Bard]

The answer to that question is: both. I don't care for 4e, but when support for 3.5 dropped it seriously depressed me, and I don't want the 4e players to have to go through that.

What about the older editions? Why are they left out in the cold.

And the "both" approach will just lead to arguments from single-editioners who feel it's unfair that resources that could be used for their edition are being wasted on the other.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I am as serious as I can be when discussing millions of dollars.

Actually, if 2/3 of The Playgrounders put in 500 dollars each, that would get about 12,200,000 dollars.

But yeah, it's pretty much a pipe dream.

[*.*.*.*]

Now, is anyone talking seriously here? I am all over the idea of The Playground owning D&D, and I would be willing to offer my time to this effort. Who here is actually serious? Like putting together a proposal serious. This is a real opportunity here. The US economy is down meaning companies are cutting the fat, and D&D is seriously under-performing, this gives us a window of theoretical feasibility. We risk very little (thank you LLC, laws), and we stand to gain control (collectively) over the game we spend sooo much time arguing over, some of us could make D&D our jobs.

Debates would rage more than before, edition wars would be worse, balance problems would arise when getting anything new published or the like. I personally adore the idea of Wizards losing the 'Dungeons and Dragons' rights, but it would open a whole bag of pain for the playground

[dextercorvia]

Actually, if 2/3 of The Playgrounders put in 500 dollars each, that would get about 12,200,000 dollars.

But yeah, it's pretty much a pipe dream.

I think you misunderstand. When we start talking about millions of dollars, I become as serious as I can be.:smallamused:

[Darth Stabber]

Actually, if 2/3 of The Playgrounders put in 500 dollars each, that would get about 12,200,000 dollars.

But yeah, it's pretty much a pipe dream.

We actually only have to come up with licensing fees, we could get investors to help with the overwhelming bulk of it. I'm putting up a thread specifically for this idea. I put up this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11176050#post11176050) to allow the thread we are on to get back on topic.

[stainboy]

At the time SRD was seen as an Evil plot to uncut the competition. AND IT WORKED.


This isn't just something invented by critics of WotC, for what it's worth. Here's Ryan Dancey (the mastermind behind the OGL) saying that very thing:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/md/md20020228e

[The Glyphstone]

Ryan Dancey...so that's the guy in the tiny, windowless cell on the seventeenth subbasement floor who begs for the mercy of death every time he hears the squeaky wheels on my cart...

[stainboy]

He consoles himself by referring it to that floor as Dungeon Level Seventeen. WotC tried to fire him, but the HR reps never made it past the steam jet trap in the boiler room on Level Six.

(Actually he was laid off in 2002.)

[EternalMelon]

He consoles himself by referring it to that floor as Dungeon Level Seventeen. WotC tried to fire him, but the HR reps never made it past the steam jet trap in the boiler room on Level Six.

(Actually he was executed in 2002.)

FTFY. The screams you hear are just the sound of his tortured soul.

[The Giant]

Oh boy. OK, here goes:

First, I want to say that I am happy with the deal that I got from WOTC regarding my campaign setting. I was paid $40,000 US for it, which is way, WAY higher than the standard rate for WOTC work. I know, because I did several other books for them, some of which took just as much time and energy as my setting and paid less than 1/10th the amount. In fact, a colleague once came up to me at a convention and asked how it felt to be one of the highest-paid RPG designers of all time for a single piece of work-for-hire. Creating IP and then getting paid for it is standard practice, and it's not like anyone else who created RPG material for WOTC is getting royalties.

Second, I knew what I was getting into when I applied to the contest. I created that piece of IP for the contest, knowing that it could end up sitting in a drawer someday. I'm fine with that. If I want to create and publish a setting, I'll just invent another one. Specifically, I did not send WOTC any ideas that I was deeply attached to, so the fact that they own it in no way impedes my ability to create now.

Third, as mentioned, the setting has nothing to do with OOTS. At all. It's not the OOTS setting, it shares nothing in common with the OOTS setting. The OOTS setting did not even exist until I started writing OOTS, about a year after I turned in my manuscript for the setting search. As a corollary, I did not "buy back" my rights to the Dragon magazine strips; they were always mine. My contracts specify that Paizo only ever had first publishing rights, as evidenced by the fact that OOTS comics do not appear in the PDF versions of Dragon magazine (because that would have required a separate contract).

Fourth, please do not contact WOTC or Hasbro on my behalf. I appreciate the sentiment, but it's really for me to decide whether or not to attempt to negotiate with them for the setting's IP. I choose not to do so at this time, largely because I believe that there would be little point. If anything, any attempt to contact them is likely to result in them being more interested in holding on to it.

Fifth, regarding seeing parts of it, you already have. While I can't give specifics, rest assured that I could list a dozen or so ideas (and at least one recurring mechanic) that have popped up in various 3.5 sourcebooks after the setting search that originated from my world. And that's not even counting more subtle influences. The one thing I can say, because WOTC employee James Wyatt already let it out of the bag years ago: The death-worshipping elves of Arenal were a suggestion WOTC staff made to Keith Baker to add into Eberron after the contest was won but before the book was published. The core idea, however—death-worshipping elves—was lifted by WOTC from my setting. (Note that Keith did not know this at the time, and his elves are still VERY different from mine.) So, they have been getting their money's worth out of the purchase all along; it hasn't so much been sitting in a drawer as cannibalized, at least while 3.5 was still going. I daresay that if my setting were released today, a lot of it would seem very been-there, done-that as a result.

So, to sum up: Contacting WOTC to try to buy my setting is a horrible, horrible idea that will cause trouble, could not possibly succeed, and would be vaguely disappointing afterward. Please, let sleeping campaign settings lie.

[Hirax]

Whee, cloture!




Fifth, regarding seeing parts of it, you already have. While I can't give specifics, rest assured that I could list a dozen or so ideas (and at least one recurring mechanic) that have popped up in various 3.5 sourcebooks after the setting search that originated from my world. And that's not even counting more subtle influences... So, they have been getting their money's worth out of the purchase all along; it wasn't not so much sitting in a drawer as cannibalized. I daresay that if my setting were released today, a lot of it would seem very been-there, done-that as a result.

Huh, rock on then.

[Forbiddenwar]

Thank-you Rich for the detailed and thorough response. It was all I could have hoped for.

I am also very grateful to know that it isn't sitting around rotting. It is being used, being played and enjoyed by millions of us, without us even being aware of it.

Now, I shall go back to dreaming of the day of seeing a published setting, any setting, or a published campaign with your name on it.

[Chess435]

Well, thanks for letting us know! I'm glad that's all cleared up!

[BobVosh]

I love author input even when it saddens me.

Now that that is over, who is up for ignoring the Giant, storming the gates of WotC with pitchforks and torches, and hiring an elite guard of ninjas to sneak in and get it while we distract them?
Yes, that sounds reasonable.

[Killer Angel]

Now that that is over, who is up for ignoring the Giant, storming the gates of WotC with pitchforks and torches, and hiring an elite guard of ninjas to sneak in and get it while we distract them?


It could be an idea for an adventure. Shadowrun? "Siege the Corporation!"

[Feytalist]

Whoa, these discussions have really gotten out of hand since I first proposed my idea.

But I also want to say thanks Rich for the input. It does actually make me (and it seems the rest of us fans) feel a bit better about the whole situation.

Ok, new plans? Anyone up to go steal it from WotC? :smallamused:

[Gullintanni]

Actually, if 2/3 of The Playgrounders put in 500 dollars each, that would get about 12,200,000 dollars.

But yeah, it's pretty much a pipe dream.

You know...if we could collectively pool this kind of money, maybe what we should be discussing is buying giant house somewhere in tropical America, calling it "The Playground" and having time share mega-parties year round. Or contract Rich to draft up an entirely new gaming system with all the balance and flavor that would follow from that.

We could also buy a lot of food for some starving people, but I mean, priorities right people? :smallwink:

[Cicciograna]

(and at least one recurring mechanic)

Confess, Giant: it's you who invented Incarnum. The link between Azure City and Incarnum...azureness is clear!

[Mando Knight]

Fifth, regarding seeing parts of it, you already have. While I can't give specifics, rest assured that I could list a dozen or so ideas (and at least one recurring mechanic) that have popped up in various 3.5 sourcebooks after the setting search that originated from my world. And that's not even counting more subtle influences. The one thing I can say, because WOTC employee James Wyatt already let it out of the bag years ago: The death-worshipping elves of Arenal were a suggestion WOTC staff made to Keith Baker to add into Eberron after the contest was won but before the book was published. The core idea, however—death-worshipping elves—was lifted by WOTC from my setting. (Note that Keith did not know this at the time, and his elves are still VERY different from mine.) So, they have been getting their money's worth out of the purchase all along; it hasn't so much been sitting in a drawer as cannibalized, at least while 3.5 was still going. I daresay that if my setting were released today, a lot of it would seem very been-there, done-that as a result.
So that's how WotC gets fresh ideas. Interesting.

[tonberrian]

The Giant invented the swift action. It makes perfect sense.

[subject42]

Confess, Giant: it's you who invented Incarnum. The link between Azure City and Incarnum...azureness is clear!

That would imply that incarnum got used more than once.

[TroubleBrewing]

Thanks for the clarification!

[Chess435]

Cue the epileptic trees wondering what Rich invented!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Cue the epileptic trees wondering what Rich invented!

First, we need a list of all the books that came out after the contest.

[Kobold-Bard]

First, we need a list of all the books that came out after the contest.

All of 3.5 I think, since the competition was run in 2002.

So it could be basically anything that wasn't in 3.0

[Chess435]

Is there anything about the setting that can be posted without breaking the Non-Disclosure Agreement? That could give us a couple hints....

[Kobold-Bard]

Is there anything about the setting that can be posted without breaking the Non-Disclosure Agreement? That could give us a couple hints....

I imagine the Giant gave us everything he's allowed to give in his post.

[Chess435]

I imagine the Giant gave us everything he's allowed to give in his post.

Kinda figured that as well, but it was worth a try. :smallwink:

[tonberrian]

Well, the first significant recurring mechanic that I can think of that came out after the contest was the Swift Action in late 2003. That's my bet.

[Tokiko Mima]

... Or contract Rich to draft up an entirely new gaming system with all the balance and flavor that would follow from that.

That would be an interesting business model, where an internet forum contracts the forums creator for additional RPG content, which they then publish for themselves. I would imagine Giant is too busy to make this happen, but a brand new 3.5 Rich Burlew campaign setting would be irresistable, at least to right thinking people of taste, like you, I and the reader. :smallwink:


We could also buy a lot of food for some starving people, but I mean, priorities right people? :smallwink:

Sorry, Neutral Evil here. Starving people should eat cake. :smalltongue:

[Chess435]

Sorry, Neutral Evil here. Starving people should eat cake. :smalltongue:

What cake? The cake is a lie!!!!! [/meme]

[SPoD]

Well, the first significant recurring mechanic that I can think of that came out after the contest was the Swift Action in late 2003. That's my bet.

He didn't say it was significant. He just said it was recurring, as in, used more than once.

Also, given that he was writing a campaign setting, not a rulebook, it's hard to imagine that it was a mechanic as crunchy as swift action. It was probably more likely a racial or class ability, since he would have needed to detail the races and prestige classes for his world. Maybe something simple like Weapon Familiarity (which didn't exist in 3.0), or fixed-list casting.

[huttj509]

So that's how WotC gets fresh ideas. Interesting.


Which...is not a bad thing.

I mean, think of what some of the submissions must have been like.

"This thing is crap...but this bit is interesting, if poorly written/developed."

As long as you have the rights, why not dig out a few gems and put them to use?

[GoblinArchmage]

So let me see if I understand this. Rich Burlew created a campaign setting froms scratch, entered it into a contest, and now WotC owns all of the rights to it which prevents Burlew from ever discussing anything about it despite the fact that it is his own creative work?

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

It almost makes me want to make my own campaign setting to enter in a contest just so I can violate whatever copyright law that is.

[Kobold-Bard]

So let me see if I understand this. Rich Burlew created a campaign setting froms scratch, entered it into a contest, and now WotC owns all of the rights to it which prevents Burlew from ever discussing anything about it despite the fact that it is his own creative work?

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

It almost makes me want to make my own campaign setting to enter in a contest just so I can violate whatever copyright law that is.

Then you get sued. Hard. WotC seems like the kind of company that would treat copyright violation pretty harshly.

And besides, based on his post The Giant was compensated generously for his efforts relating to a setting that he apparently wasn't especially attached to. Sounds like a good deal to me.

[Chess435]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.


Yeah, especially when you get paid $40,000 for your work! :smallwink:

[Amnestic]

So let me see if I understand this. Rich Burlew created a campaign setting froms scratch, entered it into a contest and in doing so agreed to sign over all intellectual property rights to said campaign setting, in return for $40,000 and now WotC owns all of the rights to it which prevents Burlew from ever discussing anything about it despite the fact that it is his own creative work?

Fixed that.


Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Yes. Yes it does. Such a clause in the contest would not be hidden in the fine print. As Mr. Burlew said earlier in the thread, he knew exactly what he was doing when he entered his campaign setting.

[SPoD]

So let me see if I understand this. Rich Burlew created a campaign setting froms scratch, entered it into a contest, and now WotC owns all of the rights to it which prevents Burlew from ever discussing anything about it despite the fact that it is his own creative work?

It's his creative work, to sell as he sees fit. If he's not upset about the terms, why should any of us be?

People sell creative work for money every single day without retaining any rights to it. It's not unusual or even unfair, as long as Rich knew what he was getting into (which he says he did). He didn't NEED to enter the contest, he could have walked away. But then he wouldn't have gotten paid, wouldn't have started this website as an attempt to capitalize on his success in the contest, and wouldn't have started OOTS--which he does own all rights to.

So therefore, entering the contest has directly led to Rich earning a living for the last 7 years, and all of us getting to enjoy his comic. Everybody wins.

[BobVosh]

It's his creative work, to sell as he sees fit. If he's not upset about the terms, why should any of us be?

People sell creative work for money every single day without retaining any rights to it. It's not unusual or even unfair, as long as Rich knew what he was getting into (which he says he did). He didn't NEED to enter the contest, he could have walked away. But then he wouldn't have gotten paid, wouldn't have started this website as an attempt to capitalize on his success in the contest, and wouldn't have started OOTS--which he does own all rights to.

So therefore, entering the contest has directly led to Rich earning a living for the last 7 years, and all of us getting to enjoy his comic. Everybody wins.

Your logic makes sense, and on the internet. How dare you sir?

Now that that is out of the way, back to the epileptic trees. I'm doubting swift actions were his, as how would that show up in a campaign setting? However I could see skill tricks or something like that.

[Hazzardevil]

What about the older editions? Why are they left out in the cold.

And the "both" approach will just lead to arguments from single-editioners who feel it's unfair that resources that could be used for their edition are being wasted on the other.

The only way I see it working is Giantitp sells the rights to 1st and 2nd editions to forums more focused on them. To be honest I think 4th edition isn't worth buying untill 5th edition turns up, how far away is it if each edition lasts 5 years?


How's this for a kick in the pants:

If Rich's game won the contest, we'd likely have Dungeons and Dragons Online based in his game world. Now, I like Eberron alright, but I think an online game world by Rich online would just be so much better.

Heck, I'd play an MMO with the OOTS world in a heartbeat.

I would, how Turbine got the rights to Eberron in the first placeis beyond me, so I really don't see how hard it can be to get it if Turbine did it, and got the rights to LOTR for LOTRO.

Also I feel dirty that my favorite elves are the Valenar.

[GoblinArchmage]

Then you get sued. Hard. WotC seems like the kind of company that would treat copyright violation pretty harshly.

And besides, based on his post The Giant was compensated generously for his efforts relating to a setting that he apparently wasn't especially attached to. Sounds like a good deal to me.


Yeah, especially when you get paid $40,000 for your work! :smallwink:


Fixed that.



Yes. Yes it does. Such a clause in the contest would not be hidden in the fine print. As Mr. Burlew said earlier in the thread, he knew exactly what he was doing when he entered his campaign setting.


It's his creative work, to sell as he sees fit. If he's not upset about the terms, why should any of us be?

People sell creative work for money every single day without retaining any rights to it. It's not unusual or even unfair, as long as Rich knew what he was getting into (which he says he did). He didn't NEED to enter the contest, he could have walked away. But then he wouldn't have gotten paid, wouldn't have started this website as an attempt to capitalize on his success in the contest, and wouldn't have started OOTS--which he does own all rights to.

So therefore, entering the contest has directly led to Rich earning a living for the last 7 years, and all of us getting to enjoy his comic. Everybody wins.

I stand corrected.

[Chess435]

I stand corrected.

Horray for not being a jerk and continuing to argue about it! :smallbiggrin:

You know, that's one of the reasons I love these forums, lol.

[Lateral]

Your logic makes sense, and on the internet. How dare you sir?

That's SPoD for ya.
------
It's nice to know that Rich got paid well for the setting, even if we'll never see it in its entirety. Although if the way he wrote the New World articles are any indication, it was probably pure, distilled awesome and would've easily won if it hadn't been in the same contest as Eberron.

[MammonAzrael]

That's SPoD for ya.
------
It's nice to know that Rich got paid well for the setting, even if we'll never see it in its entirety. Although if the way he wrote the New World articles are any indication, it was probably pure, distilled awesome and would've easily won if it hadn't been in the same contest as Eberron.

Seeing as how it came in second, that's a pretty safe bet. :smallamused:

[Lateral]

Seeing as how it came in second, that's a pretty safe bet. :smallamused:

Well, yeah. I meant that it probably would've won by a landslide.

[Darth Stabber]

Sorry, Neutral Evil here. Starving people should eat cake. :smalltongue:

I cannot support your call for caniballism, besides, their new album is really good.

Edit: my guesses for the Giant's mechanic:
1) divine feats, ie spending turn attempts for things other than turning.
2) tactical feats, though I think CWar may predate the contest.
3) heritage feats for sorcs
4) reserve feats