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View Full Version : World's Largest Dungeon... conversion to 4E.



Mordokai
2011-06-08, 04:20 PM
Lets make one thing clear. I don't want any bitching about the module itself and I don't want anything resembling edition wars. Kapish? Kapish. Good.

With that out of way... would it work? I bought WLD, oh... half a year ago? Maybe a little bit more. Doesn't really matter. What does matter is that I find the said module a great one, despite some of it's errors. But after a careful perusal and much thought, I find 3.5 somewhat of a lacking system for it. I think 4E would make a much better and stronger choice.

And now, let me repeat my first question and add a second one. Would this work? And would anybody be interested in joined project? It would take a lot of work and probably not an easy one at that, but with the right team and time investement, I believe the results could be much awesome.

If anybody feels like doing some good work, let me know. If anybody has any idea, let me know. If anybody thinks the idea alone sucks... let me know. But in that case, be sure to also let me know why you think so.

Mainly, I opened this to get it out of my head and maybe get the gears moving. If this is not the right community for it and somebody knows one, it would also be much help.

So lets get it moving, one way or another :smallsmile:

dsmiles
2011-06-08, 04:26 PM
I think I have that module...somewhere. Let me read through it and get back to you.

Mordokai
2011-06-08, 10:42 PM
By all means... though if you're going to do a really good reading, let me get a bowl of popcorn, because I think I'm in for a good, long waiting :smallbiggrin:

dsmiles
2011-06-08, 10:46 PM
By all means... though if you're going to do a really good reading, let me get a bowl of popcorn, because I think I'm in for a good, long waiting :smallbiggrin:LOL. I'm just going to skim it in the morning. It's late, and WarmaHordes takes up most of my time. Really, I just want to see if it's worthwhile to convert. Who knows, if it is, I may use it too. :smallwink:

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-09, 12:00 AM
Well, one of the Pros of switching to 4e for the module is that you can plan each room much more specifically than in 3.5.

One of the Cons of the 3.5 edition version gets effectively eliminated, too: Instead of fighting approx. 4 different types of monster, you fight 4 different types of monster with subtypes. Sure, they're all Goblins, but you've got your Skirmisher, Archer, Warrior, etc.

DontEatRawHagis
2011-06-09, 12:45 AM
General Suggestions:

What level is the dungeon? Make the traps and such at the levels described in DMG or the 4e master screen.
When rebuilding encounters you will have to change what is going on. Try to stick with the source material, but remember unless your creating new creatures its easier to stick with the MM1-3. Note: Switch the original monsters with their 4e counterpart or a monster that is level appropriate that can be used to as that monster(ie. like using a lvl 5 human bandit stat block for a Goblin)
The treasure in the dungeon will not work out at all. If your making a general conversion for anyone to use replace "Magic Sword" with Level ?? Magic Item. If you are doing this for a predetermined party then figure out what you want there.
Extra flavor should be added if there is not much to a certain room.

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-09, 03:55 AM
Let me field this one...


General Suggestions:
[LIST]
What level is the dungeon? Make the traps and such at the levels described in DMG or the 4e master screen.

It's 1-20 in 3.5, so it'd be 1-30 in 4e. Have you read the WLD? :smallconfused:



The treasure in the dungeon will not work out at all. If your making a general conversion for anyone to use replace "Magic Sword" with Level ?? Magic Item. If you are doing this for a predetermined party then figure out what you want there.

There IS no treasure in the WLD. This, at least, becomes a bigger problem than in 3.5. The time my group ran it, we had a Druid, a Sorcerer, a Psion, and a Cleric, so gear wasn't really an issue.

In 4e, you'll need to incorporate some kind of treasure system, which will raise some uncomfortable questions about the flavor in the WLD. (For instance: if it's a prison with no guards, how did this demon get this +5 Holy Avenger?)



Extra flavor should be added if there is not much to a certain room.


This is also moot. The WLD is not so much a series of rooms as it is a collection of smaller areas, bound into one huge setting.

JediSoth
2011-06-09, 11:40 AM
It could work. Why, you might even be able to make section A (featuring darkmantles, darkmantles, darkmantles, and MORE darkmantles) entertaining. You'd have to do a bit of work to incorporate skill challenges, if you use that aspect of 4E, but that section where the dungeon is basically living tissue seems like a perfect fit.

I don't recall WLD being too skimpy on the treasure; it just doesn't have a lot of extra treasure, as there is no where for PCs to sell it. With the economy revisions in 4E, it might actually work out better that way. Of course, you'd have to tweak all the encounters to take into account the changes in 4Es magic items, but then, you're already doing that just to replace the monsters with their 4E equivalent.

If I were doing it, though, I would totally throw out the numbers of creature per encounter though and use the 4E guidelines on encounter strength. One thing I found about WLD while spending 1-1/2+ years GMing it, was that it was balanced for a party of 4 consisting of a Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Sorcerer. Anything more and the PCs could cakewalk a LOT of encounters, especially in the early part of the dungeon. Even as late as Section G, the PCs (which were not the ideal "balance" party per the WLD book) were cake-walking encounters with DRAGONS. Only demons were giving them trouble, and even then it was because they had trouble getting through the DR, not because the demons were kicking butt.

Sipex
2011-06-09, 12:19 PM
Look into the rules for crafting rituals, in WLD those will become far more essential if you give out any ritual components as loot.

Mordokai
2011-06-09, 01:10 PM
It's 1-20 in 3.5, so it'd be 1-30 in 4e. Have you read the WLD? :smallconfused:

He said he is giving a general advice, so I assume the answer to your question is positive. In any case, you're right, level 1-30 seem like a logical choice.


There IS no treasure in the WLD. This, at least, becomes a bigger problem than in 3.5. The time my group ran it, we had a Druid, a Sorcerer, a Psion, and a Cleric, so gear wasn't really an issue.

In 4e, you'll need to incorporate some kind of treasure system, which will raise some uncomfortable questions about the flavor in the WLD. (For instance: if it's a prison with no guards, how did this demon get this +5 Holy Avenger?)

Well... that is not really true. There is quite some treasure and much of it unique. It's just lost among the vastness that is the dungeon. And sometimes, it does seem quite slim, especially considering that much of it comes in form of items that would be sold for coin in more regular adventure. What good does a 1000 gp worth of tapestries do to you if you're burried under the dungeon and mountain and have no way to find your way out and can use no teleport?

Granted, much would need to be done to fix this, but this was the problem of the original module anyway. Wizards had no scrolls to get. This problem is neatly solved in 4E, since wizards need no scrolls. As for others... there can be caches of celestial weapons and stuff like that. It would require a lot of work, but I think that is once again not all that different from the original.


This is also moot. The WLD is not so much a series of rooms as it is a collection of smaller areas, bound into one huge setting.

The setting has a premise and a backstory, albeit a rather cliched one. It is enough to tie everything together, but all in all, you have it right. It's more of an excuse for "kill everything that moves".


It could work. Why, you might even be able to make section A (featuring darkmantles, darkmantles, darkmantles, and MORE darkmantles) entertaining. You'd have to do a bit of work to incorporate skill challenges, if you use that aspect of 4E, but that section where the dungeon is basically living tissue seems like a perfect fit.

Halls of the flesh? Yeah, I could see it working. And Region A desperately needs something to liven it up, since, as you said, it's the most boring of them all. And I imagine Region B would become one of the best, what with all the warring goblinoids.


If I were doing it, though, I would totally throw out the numbers of creature per encounter though and use the 4E guidelines on encounter strength. One thing I found about WLD while spending 1-1/2+ years GMing it, was that it was balanced for a party of 4 consisting of a Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Sorcerer. Anything more and the PCs could cakewalk a LOT of encounters, especially in the early part of the dungeon. Even as late as Section G, the PCs (which were not the ideal "balance" party per the WLD book) were cake-walking encounters with DRAGONS. Only demons were giving them trouble, and even then it was because they had trouble getting through the DR, not because the demons were kicking butt.

I would need to check 4E DMG for pointers. One thing I'm not afraid about is balance. 4E has no more things like Initiate of Sevenfold veils and Planar Shepherd. I imagine that, if we assume a well built party going against well built encounters, it will always be a fair fight.


Look into the rules for crafting rituals, in WLD those will become far more essential if you give out any ritual components as loot.

I am not quite sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate yourself a bit further on this?

dsmiles
2011-06-09, 01:22 PM
I would need to check 4E DMG for pointers. One thing I'm not afraid about is balance. 4E has no more things like Initiate of Sevenfold veils and Planar Shepherd. I imagine that, if we assume a well built party going against well built encounters, it will always be a fair fight.
Not so. There is still a set of tiers, though these tiers describe how well a certain class preforms in it's role. I've seen it brought up in other threads. The top tier classes would have an easy time with a 'balanced' encounter. I'm not saying it would be a cakewalk, but it would still be easy.

I am not quite sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate yourself a bit further on this?I think that if you plan to give out the components to craft magical items (via treasure, or whatever), you should read up on the relevant rituals. I imagine that it's to ensure the characters don't become too powerful too quickly via magic items.

Anyway, I'm not sure how much time I'll have over the next few weeks, but I'll help as I can.

randomhero00
2011-06-09, 01:32 PM
I think you mean capisce. It's Italian. If you don't like spelling that, go for comprende? Is my personal fav.

Anyways, I don't have too much to say about the WLD. But I think it'd work. it would just take work lol.

Sipex
2011-06-09, 02:20 PM
I am not quite sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate yourself a bit further on this?

4e has rituals which allow you to craft magic items using residuum. Although I hear they're barely useful because there's always a town nearby and they might need some tweaking because I've heard it costs more to make an item via ritual than buying it which seems silly. This allows heroes to craft healing potions as well. This is in the PHB I believe.

Also, there's alchemy which your party may or may not take. It's detailed in the Adventurer's Vault.

Tvtyrant
2011-06-09, 02:21 PM
You know you could always deal with the treasure problem by having a side-dungeon inside the bigger dungeon that has a backstory that allows for wealth; it predates the real dungeon and used to be a Drow city or something.

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-09, 04:37 PM
"Yo dawg, I herd you liek dungeons so we put a dungeon in your dungeon so you can loot while you loot..."

Noneoyabizzness
2011-06-10, 07:08 AM
Let me field this one...

(For instance: if it's a prison with no guards, how did this demon get this +5 Holy Avenger?)




past adventurers who died there.same justification on why in part myth drannor and undermountain never really runs out of loot. popular place with hard battles=dead peoples treasure.

Mando Knight
2011-06-10, 01:33 PM
There IS no treasure in the WLD. This, at least, becomes a bigger problem than in 3.5. The time my group ran it, we had a Druid, a Sorcerer, a Psion, and a Cleric, so gear wasn't really an issue.

In 4e, you'll need to incorporate some kind of treasure system, which will raise some uncomfortable questions about the flavor in the WLD. (For instance: if it's a prison with no guards, how did this demon get this +5 Holy Avenger?
Alternatively, use the Inherent Bonus system from DMG II. Removes the need for magic items by giving you the bonuses automatically.

valadil
2011-06-10, 01:40 PM
4e does rely on magic items to maintain the curve. But 4e characters require fewer magical items. Weapon/implement, armor, and cloak. That's all. Everything beyond that is just fluff. 3.5 treated PCs like christmas trees to be decorated with shiny magical gear. So I think having little magic will affect the 4e PCs less than it would affect 3.5 PCs.

What kind of challenges are in the WLD? I've never read it. Monsters and traps convert easily (although you should err on the side of scaling up monsters to account for the 30 levels of 4e instead of 20). Actually, getting the XP values right may be tough. Even if the challenge level is correct, it would suck to end the dungeon at level 25 or 35 if the goal is 30. Are rooms bypassable or do you play through everything?

Non-monster challenges might be trickier, but I don't know if they exist. I'm thinking of stuff like a bridge being out and the players are expected to have potions of fly. Or are the challenges all monsters in rooms?

bokodasu
2011-06-10, 01:48 PM
I feel like I ran across a working group doing a conversion when I was running the WLD. There's definitely someone out there making nice digital maps for it. I used them in maptools and it was great. Anyway, I'd google around, no sense in reinventing the wheel if you don't have to.

edit: @Valadil - I wouldn't worry about xp. If you really went through the 3.5 WLD thoroughly you'd hit 20 like halfway through - they encourage you to ignore "proper" xp dispensing. I used the variant where you level up twice per area regardless of monsters slain. (Also encouraged cautious play, rather than wading through masses of monsters, which I thought was good.)

And there are things that aren't monsters to kill or traps to disarm, but most of it would be handled through roleplay rather than skill checks, I think. There's never really anywhere you're expected to have anything in particular - see "no treasure", above.

WitchSlayer
2011-06-10, 10:05 PM
Alternatively, use the Inherent Bonus system from DMG II. Removes the need for magic items by giving you the bonuses automatically.

And you can have altars and tablets and such to give you grandmaster training and boons and stuff for all those nice item daily and encounter powers!

Shinigaze
2011-06-13, 01:20 AM
Also be wary of certain items. Two notable examples are the Keen Maces from the harpies with rogue levels, that's actually against the rules, there is also a Diamond of soul swapping in there that with a high enough INT modifier lets you swap souls with an Astral Deva in a 1 mile vicinity.

Mordokai
2011-06-13, 12:50 PM
4e has rituals which allow you to craft magic items using residuum. Although I hear they're barely useful because there's always a town nearby and they might need some tweaking because I've heard it costs more to make an item via ritual than buying it which seems silly. This allows heroes to craft healing potions as well. This is in the PHB I believe.

Also, there's alchemy which your party may or may not take. It's detailed in the Adventurer's Vault.

With some tweaking of the rituals(would need to check them up first), this would seem like a good solution. Or at least one of the solutions.


You know you could always deal with the treasure problem by having a side-dungeon inside the bigger dungeon that has a backstory that allows for wealth; it predates the real dungeon and used to be a Drow city or something.

Mmmmm... no. The whole point of the dungeon is that it's supposed to be impenetrable. The earthquake that shook it and created cracks in the foundation makes this somewhat moot, since it allowed for invasion from derro, duergar and drow, but still. Linking it to the Menzoberranzan or some such(perhaps to the bed chambers of a particulary nasty matron mother :smalltongue:) is just asking for troubles.


past adventurers who died there.same justification on why in part myth drannor and undermountain never really runs out of loot. popular place with hard battles=dead peoples treasure.

While the dungeon is supposed to be sparsely visited, yeah, this is what I have been counting on. And with Mando's suggestion, this one becomes even better.


Alternatively, use the Inherent Bonus system from DMG II. Removes the need for magic items by giving you the bonuses automatically.

Now see, this one is great. Inherent Bonuses make this an awesome choice and if I throw in a couple of magic items here and there(it is one huge dungeon, after all, something is bound to be found in there) I think it would make an awesome solution for the problem of too little equipment.


4e does rely on magic items to maintain the curve. But 4e characters require fewer magical items. Weapon/implement, armor, and cloak. That's all. Everything beyond that is just fluff. 3.5 treated PCs like christmas trees to be decorated with shiny magical gear. So I think having little magic will affect the 4e PCs less than it would affect 3.5 PCs.

This one I'm happy to hear :smallsmile:


What kind of challenges are in the WLD? I've never read it. Monsters and traps convert easily (although you should err on the side of scaling up monsters to account for the 30 levels of 4e instead of 20). Actually, getting the XP values right may be tough. Even if the challenge level is correct, it would suck to end the dungeon at level 25 or 35 if the goal is 30. Are rooms bypassable or do you play through everything?

Rooms can be bypassed, certainly. Though most of the monsters are vigilant and if you fight in the room A, monsters from room D two rooms down and left are likely to come and investigate. And yeah, even the original WLD made a suggestion to be a little liberal with XP. This is something that would require a work from DM and I'm not quite sure how to bypass it. Not sure if there even is a way. Any suggestion about this is welcome.


Non-monster challenges might be trickier, but I don't know if they exist. I'm thinking of stuff like a bridge being out and the players are expected to have potions of fly. Or are the challenges all monsters in rooms?

Well, there are unique rituals, one in particular being Ritual of Unmaking, which makes a spellcaster of a group succed on a progresively harder Spellcraft checks to make it. The point is to ultimately destroy one of the two abberations in the dungeon, which otherwise always regenerate back.

It's an awesome piece of work, but one that would not translate well into 4E, me thinks. Probably make it a very hard skill challenge. There are also some custom weapons and traps and those too would probably be resolved with skill challenges.


I feel like I ran across a working group doing a conversion when I was running the WLD. There's definitely someone out there making nice digital maps for it. I used them in maptools and it was great. Anyway, I'd google around, no sense in reinventing the wheel if you don't have to.

This sounds great. I'd be very grateful if you could remember where you found this. My google-fu seems to be too weak.


And you can have altars and tablets and such to give you grandmaster training and boons and stuff for all those nice item daily and encounter powers!

Or certain friendly NPCs. Maybe make a skill challenge again, to persuade them to help you?


Also be wary of certain items. Two notable examples are the Keen Maces from the harpies with rogue levels, that's actually against the rules, there is also a Diamond of soul swapping in there that with a high enough INT modifier lets you swap souls with an Astral Deva in a 1 mile vicinity.

I am not quite sure what are you talking about. Care to point me to items in question?

I assume that diamond you're talking about is to be found somewhere within Region G? Something you steal from Cyrlebrai?

Shinigaze
2011-06-13, 10:22 PM
It is in section F44 Cell Block with an elf with a minotaurs soul trapped within.

Diamond of Trading souls. Whoever uses this can search up to 1 mile plus intelligence modifier for a body and switch souls, the creature gets a will save at DC 10+1/2 caster level+intelligence modifier but if he fails the souls swap and he takes 1d4 points of intelligence damage +1 for every year stuck in the body. Keeps all mental attributes, class abilities, BAB, saves and skills but gains new physical attributes and racial abilities of the new body. User of the diamond speaks all languages now. Can return to his old body at any time, even if the other soul died in that body but if his body is completely destroyed the new body is permanently his.

chaotoroboto
2011-06-15, 03:30 PM
4e does rely on magic items to maintain the curve. But 4e characters require fewer magical items. Weapon/implement, armor, and cloak. That's all. Everything beyond that is just fluff. 3.5 treated PCs like christmas trees to be decorated with shiny magical gear. So I think having little magic will affect the 4e PCs less than it would affect 3.5 PCs.

The 4E DMG has rules for inherent magical bonuses, for low magic settings. These add flat, level-based bonuses to attacks, defenses, and maybe a few other things, so your odds of hitting and being hit scale appropriately. You lose some of the nifty effects, but you're always within spitting distance of balance.

It's a checkbox on CB.

EDIT: Or I could read the rest of the posts in the thread.

Mordokai
2011-06-15, 04:36 PM
It is in section F44 Cell Block with an elf with a minotaurs soul trapped within.

Diamond of Trading souls. Whoever uses this can search up to 1 mile plus intelligence modifier for a body and switch souls, the creature gets a will save at DC 10+1/2 caster level+intelligence modifier but if he fails the souls swap and he takes 1d4 points of intelligence damage +1 for every year stuck in the body. Keeps all mental attributes, class abilities, BAB, saves and skills but gains new physical attributes and racial abilities of the new body. User of the diamond speaks all languages now. Can return to his old body at any time, even if the other soul died in that body but if his body is completely destroyed the new body is permanently his.

Oh yeah, I remember now. Guess that would take some homebrewing.

Ok people... any more ideas? Everything is welcome, as long as it's not totally unconstuctive :smalltongue:

Sorcerer Blob
2011-06-19, 07:23 PM
I, too, am interested in converting WLD to 4E. I think that a lot of it would translate rather smoothly with some minor adjustments here an there. The scope of the battles in WLD (ie. taking up multiple rooms on occasion) fits with the 4E mold all but perfectly, for one.

There are some ideas for the conversion that I have come to in both my own thinking about it and in reading this thread. The most important of which seems to be the following: While some things in WLD by its very nature go against the spirit of 4E, they do not go against the spirit of WLD!

What I mean by that is that the potential exists in WLD for permanent negatives and insta-kills. This isn't a 4E concept, and one, in fact, that the creators of 4E worked very hard to rid from the current edition. But, in scope of the dungeon itself, these things make sense mechanically and story-wise. They are necessary and some of these things should stay in the conversion.

While it may be against the spirit of the edition, I think that spirit of the WLD should come first and foremost. You want this to feel like the WLD as much as possible. Having both played it and read through it, I can attest that as annoying as some of the permanent negatives could be, that was the spirit of the game. Minor Spoiler Alert: In one of the later sections of the dungeon is a mass of water that the party must traverse through, but the water has been corrupted by the demons in the dungeon and causes party members who traverse through the water to mutate (after a failed save, of course.) Some of these mutations were good, most were bad, but they added to the flavor of the dungeon, which is the most important thing here.

So, keep some of the deadlier traps, allow for things like the mutations and permanent negatives, but mostly do what you think needs to be done to maintain the spirit of this mega-dungeon. A site that has worked really hard to bring back the insta-deaths and deadlier aspects of D&D to 4E is Save Vs. Death (saveversusdeath.com). They have created their own concept for this exact type of adventure or conversion called Fourthcore, which more information can be found about here. (http://slamdancr.com/wp/2011/01/what-is-fourthcore/)

Once I can actually get my hands on the over-priced World's Largest Dungeon I'd be more than happy to share my more specific thoughts about the conversion with y'all.

Urpriest
2011-06-19, 07:33 PM
Alternatively, use the Inherent Bonus system from DMG II. Removes the need for magic items by giving you the bonuses automatically.

This. It's really the obvious solution.

Isn't WLD premised around the idea that it includes every monster in the 3.5 MM? If so, you'd want to change up the selection of monsters to fit 4e, as otherwise the whole reason for including them goes away. I'd pick a better constructed MM, perhaps the Essentials one, rather than the first 4e MM. This will probably mean you'll have to create new themes for some of the areas as well.

dsmiles
2011-06-19, 07:36 PM
Pfff..."spirit of the edition," my ass. WotC can take their game design and shove it. It's as deadly as we make it.

Take my campaign setting, for instance:
Healing? Not always 100% effective, and can have permanent side-effects.
Resurrection? Right. Raise Dead is the best you get, and it has permanent side-effects. Period.

Sorcerer Blob
2011-06-20, 09:37 AM
Pfff..."spirit of the edition," my ass. WotC can take their game design and shove it. It's as deadly as we make it.

Take my campaign setting, for instance:
Healing? Not always 100% effective, and can have permanent side-effects.
Resurrection? Right. Raise Dead is the best you get, and it has permanent side-effects. Period.

I agree with you that it is as deadly as you want to make it, or homebrew it in this case. In fact I even linked to a homebrew to make it more deadly.

That said, "spirit of the edition" is apt. If you have read or glanced at the rules you know that insta-kills were removed as well as permanent negative penalties such as negative levels. The rules as written are very opposed to these, so yes, it is the "spirit of the edition," for better and for worse.

Now, I am inclined to agree with your second part. D&D should be deadly. I love the idea of healing and magic not always being 100% effective. Something I am trying to implement in my game is the Fourthcore material I linked in my previous post. It is unforgiving and deadly. I love it. The only thing in the "rules as written" that even comes close to how deadly and dangerous Fourthcore is is the Beholder's Death Ray (2 saves, if you fail the second one you die.)

So, back to my original argument, convert WLD but also make sure to add that deadly spin to it or it won't be WLD at the core! The award-version of the converted Tomb of Horrors did an awesome job with this, the published version... not so much to the extent it didn't feel like ToH at all.