What's the point of Gnomes?

[NineThePuma]

Okay, so they can fill the 'crazy awesome tinkering/steam punk' role, a sort of 'prankster' role, and... that's it. I don't understand what the point of gnomes is. =\

[The-Mage-King]

In the words of a Chaotic wizard...

"Target Practice!"

[TroubleBrewing]

Beholder food.

Failing that, humor!

[NineThePuma]

Okay, ASIDE from the usual "killing", "punting" and "consumption" jokes

[Talakeal]

Okay, ASIDE from the usual "killing", "punting" and "consumption" jokes

I'm not sure I understand the question...

[The-Mage-King]

Emergency catapult amunition.


Hey, it's none of the above!

[Katana_Geldar]

Strength training, for gnome tossing.

[NineThePuma]

Okay, can I get a serious answer? Please? Cause at this rate, I'm liable to just dump gnomes completely, in order to remove the temptation of doing such.

[Seerow]

That was kinda what the 4e devs said when they wrote them out and made them a monster race.





That said, my personal favorite use is darts. Get some pointy hats and 5-10 gnomes wearing them, train them to run back to you after you throw them.

[Katana_Geldar]

Oi! Gnomes are a playable race in 4e! They're in PHB2! :smallmad:

[TroubleBrewing]

They're a small-sized race for those who don't want to be a hobbit.

Also, to make the feat Fling Ally HILARIOUS!

[NineThePuma]

I'd like to avoid the 4e "Gnomes are to dwarves what Eladrin are to Elves!" style argument, please.

Mostly because I see a gnome and I don't see a Fey creature.

EDIT: Sadly, I can't use 'Fling Ally' to throw my enem- wait, you mean he wants me to throw allied gnomes? Why the crap would I have a gnome as an ally?

[Eric Tolle]

Well in 3.5 it's to be the best wizards, clerics and druids, due to a combination of a Con bonus and small size. Basically if you were playing one of those classes and you weren't a gnome, you would never be allowed into the optimizers' club.

[Katana_Geldar]

Why the crap would I have a gnome as an ally?

To do the insane stupid things no one else will.

There's a gnome sorcerer in my 3.5 party, to get them to go anywhere we throw a coin in that direction. "Look gnome! Shiny!"

[TroubleBrewing]

They're one of only three base races that get a Con bonus; the others are Dwarf and Half-Orc. One of them is your best choice in Core aside from Human, and the other just barely squeaks in ahead of Elf and Half-Elf for "Worst Race Ever".

Gnomes aren't half bad. If they irritate you as a GM, don't include them. Your call.

[Talakeal]

Gnomes are kind of odd in that they don't traditionally have a role of their own, brownies, halflings, and dwarves typically do everything a gnome does, and most gnomes are just one of these races in a funny hat.

However, Dragonlance decided to redifine the gnome as a parody of engineers, and since this interpretation has really taken off, indeed warcraft embraces this whole heartedly and they are actually one of the most popular races as a result.

If you want to use gnomes I would either stick with the tinker interpretation or find something new for them.

[Seerow]

EDIT: Sadly, I can't use 'Fling Ally' to throw my enem- wait, you mean he wants me to throw allied gnomes? Why the crap would I have a gnome as an ally?

Because you need ammo, and your leadership feat happens to supply a steady stream of willing ally gnomes who line up for the honor of being thrown at enemies by you.

[SleepyShadow]

Alright, so you don't like normal gnomes. Try their overly awesome cousins: The Whisper Gnomes (Races of Stone, I believe).

Failing that, gnomes are a hold over from 1st Edition. I like gnomes, but in reality ... regular gnomes really are just Steam Punk/Comedic Relief characters. Even the Baldur's Gate PC admitted to that trope with Jan Jansen.

As far as stats go, they make great casters, what with small size and Con bonus, but few people can take a gnome seriously. Even if the gnome in question is a deep, fleshed out character, most people still expect silly pranks, wiz-bang gizmos, and turnips.

Sadly, somewhere down the line, gnomes lost their place in the gaming world. Aside from a few variants, such as the Whisper Gnome, which bring hope back to the gnomish communities, the gnome really has only three options: Artificer, Clown, or Corpse.

[Katana_Geldar]

That does it, I am going to have a Yoda Gnome as an NPC as soon as I can make it happen.

[Honest Tiefling]

Shadowcraft mage. I assume gnomes were the small race for casters, hence their ability stats. Halfling is rogue-flavor small size for core. I guess they were meant to be pranksters, but in core halflings are not so serious themselves.

If I were you, and your players liked gnomes, ask them what they like about them. Then fluff out your halflings in a different direction. If no one plays gnomes, then define halflings and base gnomes on what they are not.

If you are still out of ideas, raid campaign settings. In Forgotten Realms, the tinker gnome does not exist. Gnomes are a peaceful, shy, quiet race that lives in touch with nature, preferring to hide to fight (hence illusions). Halflings in that campaign setting are actually more lawful then chaotic, and even have strict military orders.

I think tinker gnomes were invented to make people like the kender better. It probably didn't work.

[Haberdashery]

I dunno guys, elves are just humans with pointy ears. Dwarves are just short humans with beards. And halflings are just plain short humans. If there's no point to gnomes, there's no point to really any of the core races. They're just humans with rigidly enforced social stereotypes and a minor mutation.

[SleepyShadow]

Oh, I almost forgot: Their racial ability to lick their own eyebrows :smallbiggrin:

[DontEatRawHagis]

As far as 4e is conscerned they are magic wielding beings with the innate ability of casting illusions no matter what.

In Dark Sun they are extinct and there is a Champion called the Gnome Killer.

Honestly Gnomes are the equivalent of Halfings with magic. The similarities end in height. Gnomes use magic while Halflings are better at thievery.

Gnomes are the butt of everyone's jokes because they are literally the smallest player characters in the game and are so hopped up on medication that they are most likely bipolar. WoW makes them wizards, 4e makes them wizards, and Harry Potter makes them vermin to be thrown.

My personal opinion try to make gnomes more like lawn gnomes. Nature born creatures that tend to plants and scare off evil spirits. Makes them sound more interesting and deep than what has previously been done about them, except for Gnomerage(sp) from WoW that instance is hard as balls.

[NineThePuma]

My group hates gnomes (various reasons) and doesn't really care for halflings due to Small Size.

Personally, if I can't find a good reason to have Gnomes around, I'm going to slip the illusion stuff to Halflings, and steal the halflings bonuses to thrown weapons and saves against fear and dump them in the lake.

[An Enemy Spy]

I love gnomes! I played a gnome bard with a magic keytar who rode the Fighter around like a horse, elected himself team leader and ordered the fighter to go on suicide missions.
The fighter stuck him into a vase and the gnome slammed a chest over the fighter's head. The two of them were not very good team players.

[squeekenator]

I dunno guys, elves are just humans with pointy ears. Dwarves are just short humans with beards. And halflings are just plain short humans. If there's no point to gnomes, there's no point to really any of the core races. They're just humans with rigidly enforced social stereotypes and a minor mutation.

Exactly this. No race, class or option has a 'point' other than 'in case someone wants to play it'. If you want to cut gnomes, go right ahead, but by the same logic you should remove everything else in the game too.

[Katana_Geldar]

You can take the trickster element up a little when you combine them with the English folk beliefs about "little people", that spoil the bread, curl your hair and steal babies from the crib to replace them with changelings.

And gnomes are so very close to leprechauns...

[Amiel]

As cannon fodder; which makes them similar to kobolds in some respects and dissimilar in others (kobolds are actually useful).

You could reshape their origins to the point of making them cursory fey, or refugees or transient visitors from the fey worlds.

[Yora]

Gnomes are a really great race. But the first step to great gnomes is to remove all "crazy awesome tinkering/steam punk" and "prankster" stuff. Those things are just silly and stupid.
They are the halflings and dwarves of the forests, and also good wizards and alchemists. However, they do make halflings redundant.

[Katana_Geldar]

I like to think of halflings in terms of Tolkein anyway. Happy little creatures content with their lot that generally stay in their villages. Adventures, of course, make them later for dinner.

[NineThePuma]

I dunno guys, elves are just humans with pointy ears. Dwarves are just short humans with beards. And halflings are just plain short humans. If there's no point to gnomes, there's no point to really any of the core races. They're just humans with rigidly enforced social stereotypes and a minor mutation.


Exactly this. No race, class or option has a 'point' other than 'in case someone wants to play it'. If you want to cut gnomes, go right ahead, but by the same logic you should remove everything else in the game too.

However, Halflings have a "purpose" and a typical role within the party; more over, you can actually build them a pretty good culture without stepping on any of the other races toes. Dwarves are craftsmen, and, honestly, I might be spoiled by Warcraft 3, but they always struck me as the most likely to be technologically advanced. Elves suck (and I give them a couple buffs to negate this), and I tend to already play up their 'Fey' heritage.

[Oracle_Hunter]

My group hates gnomes (various reasons) and doesn't really care for halflings due to Small Size.

Personally, if I can't find a good reason to have Gnomes around, I'm going to slip the illusion stuff to Halflings, and steal the halflings bonuses to thrown weapons and saves against fear and dump them in the lake.
Out of curiosity: what would constitute a "good reason" to include Gnomes (or any race) in a Heroic Fantasy game? :smallconfused:

At the moment, it sounds to me like you're asking about the whichness of the why but surely you must have had a category of answer in mind.

EDIT: Ah, something like an answer.

OK, first - what Edition? In 4e they clearly have a role, so I figure that's not what you're talking about.

IMHO, you can build a fine culture for any race and the gnomes are no exception. In 3.5 they were still the "magical trickster" race which can be used in many contexts. In the alternative, the Gnomes of Eberron run a police state in which gnomes use their trickery to be excellent spies.

Or... were you looking for something else?

[NineThePuma]

I want a sort of role that doesn't step on the toes of any of the others, but isn't so out of place that I need to smack somebody.

[Katana_Geldar]

Why not? A role that steps on the toes of other means conflict.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I want a sort of role that doesn't step on the toes of any of the others, but isn't so out of place that I need to smack somebody.
...yeah, we're going to need more information.

"Out of place" in what context
"Step on [their] toes" in what way

[NineThePuma]

Typical fantasy context of pseudo-medieval feudal states.

Step on their toes in the sense of "rivalry between them in such a way that a cooperation is unlikely. While the whole Elf/Dwarf rivalry is semi-alright, having a similar rivalry for another set of races feels... dumb.

[drakir_nosslin]

I usually fluff gnomes as a mix of dwarves and elves. They live in small communities in, or near large forests. Usually in a hill that's been converted to a small village, where they can easily hide from intruders with the help of illusion magic. The society is very free, often with no apparent leader except in times of crisis. They have a deep respect for the power of nature and the arcane.
As can be expected from such a culture, most adventuring gnomes are wizards, sorcerers or druids who have left their home for some reason.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Typical fantasy context of pseudo-medieval feudal states.

Step on their toes in the sense of "rivalry between them in such a way that a cooperation is unlikely. While the whole Elf/Dwarf rivalry is semi-alright, having a similar rivalry for another set of races feels... dumb.
So... don't have the gnomes be "rivals" with any of the other races. Done.

Looks like you've got the "point" of gnomes solved. Glad to help? :smalltongue:

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm sure there's a way to fit them in. Going with the core races...

1) Humans...They're humans. Next!

2) Elves: Not sure where you went with this, so let's throw on the whole shebang. They are a race intune with both magic and nature and really good at combining both with archery and arms. Also art. I think their purpose is a mystical, magical race with otherworldly appeal that is slowly fading.

3) Dwarves: Beer, blacksmithing, ale, and guns.

4) Half-orcs: Brutish, dumb, but strong. Tend to evil, either due to orcish nature or because everyone beats them with sticks.

5) Halflings: Nomadic, curious and inventive. They get along easily with other races, and make good use of their natural dexterity. Make good rogues, and are very good at stealth. They like to brave the world, through not neceasarily head on. Some halflings display a lot of bravado or recklessness, while some like to test their skills in daring acts. Also brave little things, even when you toss them into battle. Literally.

6) Gnomes: Less prone to wanderlust then halflings, and less prone to empire then whichever race the DM uses as the bad guys. They might possibly stick to clans, but not put as much stock into hertiage and titles as dwarves. Instead, they try to help each other out as much as possible, and are very hard working. They may or may not help outsiders, as some communities are hidden and prefer to remain that way. They like art as much as elves, but prefer to decorate items of pratical use and conserve magic. The only act they might indulge a bit of frivolous casting is with entertainment via illusions, but even that is considered practice. Their lives are often simple, but not bad. A few gnomes adventure, either driven to exile or on some task for their clan.

There, six races, and hopefully no toes being stepped on. Really, the point is a gnome is what you and your players say a gnome is. No one likes? Don't use. If someone does, I would advise working with them to make a unique race that still captures what they like about gnomes.

[Amiel]

So gnomes are the kenders of the roleplaying worlds?

[Honest Tiefling]

I think people are just confused or bemused if you play a gnome, not enraged and foaming at the mouth.

[Tvtyrant]

Okay, so they can fill the 'crazy awesome tinkering/steam punk' role, a sort of 'prankster' role, and... that's it. I don't understand what the point of gnomes is. =\

I like Gnomes; I usually use them as short elves. They have a nature/magic aspect that I think is good for roleplaying. I played a Gnome fochlucan lyrist once in a one shot and used gain familiar to get a fox. The Gnome idolized natural tricksters like Coyote as the ultimate embodiment of surviving by wits.

[Zaydos]

Honest answer: Gnomes are elven dwarves. They are to dwarves what elves are to humans.

AD&D gnomes are dwarves sans poison resistance and slightly nerfed stone cunning (they can't detect traps; stonecunning did a fair bit back in those days and that was only 1 of 4 facets). In their place they get the ability to talk with certain animals and actually be mages of some sort. They also have no Constitution bonus but no Charisma penalty.

2e Gnomes have +1 Int and -1 Wis differentiating them from other races and making them more promising mages, and less adept priests. Otherwise the above is still true.


Gnomes are a really great race. But the first step to great gnomes is to remove all "crazy awesome tinkering/steam punk" and "prankster" stuff. Those things are just silly and stupid.
They are the halflings and dwarves of the forests, and also good wizards and alchemists. However, they do make halflings redundant.

This is good advice. Gnomes !/= tinker gnomes. Tinker gnomes do crazy steam punk. Gnomes are mystic little men who work magic in their burrows and fight like cornered badgers. Okay they've always been pranksters, but


I like to think of halflings in terms of Tolkein anyway. Happy little creatures content with their lot that generally stay in their villages. Adventures, of course, make them later for dinner.

This was the canon fluff till 3.0 why they changed it I will never know.

[Stumblebee]

When I saw the title of this thread, all I could think of was Jerry Seinfeld doing stand-up at DragonCon. Is it me? Am I the weirdo?

[Yanagi]

In D&D settings gnomes are the archetypal artisans: whether intellectual, creative, or mischievous, they are cast as primarily concerned with practical ends. Look at them at slightly different angles and they're alchemists and scientists and natural philosophers. Indeed, because of their innovation and practicality they fit themselves to many different clever niches.

This might sound the same as dwarves, but D&D dwarves aren't technologists like Warcraft dwarves: the have crafts, but they're generally limited to personal armament, mining, and fortification. Dwarves are also consistently cast as deeply traditional, martial-minded, and clannish in their cultural praxis...they're not much for bold innovation when existing forms are workable and reverent of the ancestral material culture.

[Teron]

How's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a) this? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041206a)

[LibraryOgre]

I'm not sure of the origin of gnomes in D&D, and their position in 1e and 2e was still somewhat nebulous. The closest "Appendix N" match to them is the dwarf from "Three Hearts and Three Lions", Hugi. In many ways, Dragonlance attempted to create a role for them (of tinkers), but while it became iconic, it doesn't really fit into the earlier conceptions of gnomes... like kender replacing halflings (which, IMO, they eventually did in 3e, where they were cross-bred with the Vistani).

Looking into AD&D sources, I'd say the original conception was close to what would later become the Hill Dwarf subrace, in that they were more cosmopolitan and in tune with above-ground nature, while dwarves themselves moved more towards the Mountain Dwarf subrace, with a heavier sense of clannishness and xenophobia.
With the development of a hill dwarf subrace, the gnomes had less space, and became more fey (in the usual sense, not the D&D sense)... their sense of humor (which was noted as being "often on the black side or practical jokes" in the 1e DMG) became a much larger part of their character, and it generally lightened; they went from 1e's "sly and furtive" to being lively first, then sly and furtive in 2e (in order of the description), to 3e's valued tinkers and alchemists.
Their kinship with dwarves was de-emphasized in 2e, and was more or less ignored in 3e (I couldn't find a mention of it; gnomes were often compared to dwarves, but beyond a non-specific "brethren" in Races of Stone, no mention of relationship is made), to finally becoming fully fey in 4e.

Greyhawk depictions of gnomes are usually quite martial; Garl carries a magic battle axe, after all, and though they have their deities of stealth and trickery, they are, on the whole, fairly martial (moreso than halflings; though they both had a level limit of 6 in the 1e PH, halflings were far less likely to be able to reach that limit... halflings had to be of a certain subrace AND have an 18 strength). Tinkerism increased as their martial nature was de-emphasized; even the gnome artificer of Forgotten Realms was specifically a warrior. Gnomes in Complete Gnomes and Halflings actually had some fairly stout warrior kits (Breachgnomes were great "plugs" in hallways, and both they and Goblinstickers were murder-minded). In 3e, gnomes are practically festooned with tinkerism.

Gnomes has a number of unique features in earlier editions. There was their ability to speak with burrowing mammals, which 3e dropped to a very short-duration spell-like ability. They were also unique in the races of having an exclusively male pantheon, which Forgotten Realms' Demihuman Deities highlighted as a point of interest*... a spur to gnomes to adventure, to find the lost Ladies of the Golden Hills. Lastly, they were the only race other than humans to be illusionists, and 1e had them as accomplished as warrior/illusionists as elves were as warrior/magic-users. NPC gnomes were also wise and tough, though lacking in Charisma; they got a +1 to wisdom and constitution, but a -1 to charisma, compared to a dwarf's bonus to con and strength, with the same penalty to charisma. In 2e, this changed to them having a +1 to Int and a -1 to Wisdom, likely somewhat in response to Dragonlance, while 3e made it a -2 to Strength and a +2 to Constitution. This move, I feel, really broke the martial traditions of gnomes from popular conception, making gnomes an even more unattractive proposition for would-be warriors, and made far more possible 4e's fey gnome.

I'm afraid this is a bit disjointed; it's a touch late here, and I went through a lot of material poking around at this, and I know I segued more than an episode of Family Guy.
tl;dr
Gnomes seem to have started out as somewhat more cosmopolitan dwarves, inspired, in part, by a character in Three Hearts and Three Lions. As the editions progressed, their kinship with dwarves and martial traditions were de-emphasized, in favor of a tinkerish practical jokesters. On the whole, it seems they have little in the way of cohesive identity across the editions, lacking a strong, archetypical figure on which to build their stereotypes.

*Something I hated from Races of Stone was introducing Garl's "Dark twin brother" and the goddess who they fought over. She's not given much of a personality, and it really left the entire pantheon flat. Rather than having a hook of "missing sister gods", they had a duality that didn't really do anything.

[Talakeal]

You could look at Changeling the Dreaming's take on Nockers, as they are both fey and steam punk tinkers, I used it as a source of inspiration for giving gnomes a unique role in my campaign world.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm not sure of the origin of gnomes in D&D, and their position in 1e and 2e was still somewhat nebulous. The closest "Appendix N" match to them is the dwarf from "Three Hearts and Three Lions", Hugi. In many ways, Dragonlance attempted to create a role for them (of tinkers), but while it became iconic, it doesn't really fit into the earlier conceptions of gnomes... like kender replacing halflings (which, IMO, they eventually did in 3e, where they were cross-bred with the Vistani).

Looking into AD&D sources, I'd say the original conception was close to what would later become the Hill Dwarf subrace, in that they were more cosmopolitan and in tune with above-ground nature, while dwarves themselves moved more towards the Mountain Dwarf subrace, with a heavier sense of clannishness and xenophobia.
With the development of a hill dwarf subrace, the gnomes had less space, and became more fey (in the usual sense, not the D&D sense)... their sense of humor (which was noted as being "often on the black side or practical jokes" in the 1e DMG) became a much larger part of their character, and it generally lightened; they went from 1e's "sly and furtive" to being lively first, then sly and furtive in 2e (in order of the description), to 3e's valued tinkers and alchemists.
Their kinship with dwarves was de-emphasized in 2e, and was more or less ignored in 3e (I couldn't find a mention of it; gnomes were often compared to dwarves, but beyond a non-specific "brethren" in Races of Stone, no mention of relationship is made), to finally becoming fully fey in 4e.

Greyhawk depictions of gnomes are usually quite martial; Garl carries a magic battle axe, after all, and though they have their deities of stealth and trickery, they are, on the whole, fairly martial (moreso than halflings; though they both had a level limit of 6 in the 1e PH, halflings were far less likely to be able to reach that limit... halflings had to be of a certain subrace AND have an 18 strength). Tinkerism increased as their martial nature was de-emphasized; even the gnome artificer of Forgotten Realms was specifically a warrior. Gnomes in Complete Gnomes and Halflings actually had some fairly stout warrior kits (Breachgnomes were great "plugs" in hallways, and both they and Goblinstickers were murder-minded). In 3e, gnomes are practically festooned with tinkerism.

Gnomes has a number of unique features in earlier editions. There was their ability to speak with burrowing mammals, which 3e dropped to a very short-duration spell-like ability. They were also unique in the races of having an exclusively male pantheon, which Forgotten Realms' Demihuman Deities highlighted as a point of interest*... a spur to gnomes to adventure, to find the lost Ladies of the Golden Hills. Lastly, they were the only race other than humans to be illusionists, and 1e had them as accomplished as warrior/illusionists as elves were as warrior/magic-users. NPC gnomes were also wise and tough, though lacking in Charisma; they got a +1 to wisdom and constitution, but a -1 to charisma, compared to a dwarf's bonus to con and strength, with the same penalty to charisma. In 2e, this changed to them having a +1 to Int and a -1 to Wisdom, likely somewhat in response to Dragonlance, while 3e made it a -2 to Strength and a +2 to Constitution. This move, I feel, really broke the martial traditions of gnomes from popular conception, making gnomes an even more unattractive proposition for would-be warriors, and made far more possible 4e's fey gnome.

I'm afraid this is a bit disjointed; it's a touch late here, and I went through a lot of material poking around at this, and I know I segued more than an episode of Family Guy.
tl;dr
Gnomes seem to have started out as somewhat more cosmopolitan dwarves, inspired, in part, by a character in Three Hearts and Three Lions. As the editions progressed, their kinship with dwarves and martial traditions were de-emphasized, in favor of a tinkerish practical jokesters. On the whole, it seems they have little in the way of cohesive identity across the editions, lacking a strong, archetypical figure on which to build their stereotypes.

*Something I hated from Races of Stone was introducing Garl's "Dark twin brother" and the goddess who they fought over. She's not given much of a personality, and it really left the entire pantheon flat. Rather than having a hook of "missing sister gods", they had a duality that didn't really do anything.
This is literally more than I ever wanted to know about the Gnomeness of Gnomes. Good job :smalltongue:

[slaydemons]

To my knowledge they are kind of like people who believe in science they should be smarter then most races because they spend time studying, if dwarves are brawn, gnomes are brain. That is how I see it.

Edit: I came in at 3.5 one of the above poster makes me actually want to make a gnome warrior

[oxybe]

gnomes are the odd duck of the races. Dwelflings, if you will.

they're supposed to be the earthy industrialist/inventor types, but IME people associate that with the hardworking, coal burning & iron smiting dwarves.

they're supposed to be a magical race, but elves are the best known/associated ancient race that learned all the magics. ever. and look pretty while doing so.

they're supposed to be small and mischievous, but the best known thief burglar has hairy feet and refuses to wear shoes. also: kender.

gnomes in pre-4th D&D share traits with a lot of races, but don't really have much of a niche of their own, at least not outside of the core books. the 4th ed "core" gnome IMO has a much more clear identity: a race of fey that are escaping slavery though their illusion magics, but it's still pretty sparce.

someone pointed to eberron, which IMO is probably the setting that finally gave gnomes their own niche: the 3-foot tall mafia. they have contacts and contracts and you best hold your end.

tinker gnomes always felt weird. it might just be due to the overall tech level assumed of DL... i dunno. shrug.

[Yora]

This was the canon fluff till 3.0 why they changed it I will never know.

I think halflings are a race very deeply tied in with civilization. Halflings really only have a place in cities or town. Either they are peace loving farmers, and largely irrelevant to the rest of the setting, or they thrive in cosmopolitan societies. But in a wilderness or frontier campaign, there's really no place for them to occupy.
Which I think is just the place where gnomes really can shine. Though they usually have clerics instead of druids, I think gnomes are highly connected to nature. Spirits and fey are relevant to them, if they live in forested hills or underground, and they approach things with a non-confrontational approach. Instead I see them as people, who start asking for reasons and looking for solutions that remove the source of their problems. Which makes them very different to elves and dwarves, and to halfling rogues, which I see all as rather striking hard and striking fast without really bothering to understand the nature of a conflict.
Like halflings, gnomes can be sneaky, but not so much to stab their enemies in the back, but rather altering the cicumstances of the situation which puts them into a much more favorable position than their enemies. Gnomes stop to think things through to solve problems in a quiet way. Something which really no other race is known for. The big races and halfling rogues are mostly motivated by anger when it come to conflict, or they simply love battles.

[Eldan]

They are, without a doubt, the greatest spellcasters in core. Look at it like this: they are the only race who actually has inborn magic. Sure, the books go on an on about how great elves are at casting. But what do elves get that actually helps them cast, in the rules? Gnomes are born with magic in their blood. The average gnome child has as much magic as the average elf apprentice. And from there, they only get better.

I see gnomes as the number one magical race. "Wizard" is their thing. Elves may sit in the forest and be great hunters and nature-feelers and tree-huggers, but that doesn't help with wizardry. Wizards need paper, ink, books, components, laboratories, schools and lots and lots of free time to study. All of which comes with an industrialized society, not semi-nomadic forest hunter-gathering.

[FelixG]

They are good in Eberron...

But in my own settings when I run I generally play them off as the brain damaged mutant offspring of one of the real races and are appropriately shunned and punted.

...Thats when I include them at all anyway.

[Talya]

What's the point of... Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, Goliaths, Raptorrans, Illumians, Azurin, Dusklings, Tieflings, Aasimar, etc. etc. etc.?


Because it's high fantasy and not everyone wants to play human? Variety is everything.

[Yuki Akuma]

Their point is casting Miracles from cantrip slots.

[Gullintanni]

However, Halflings have a "purpose" and a typical role within the party; more over, you can actually build them a pretty good culture without stepping on any of the other races toes. Dwarves are craftsmen, and, honestly, I might be spoiled by Warcraft 3, but they always struck me as the most likely to be technologically advanced. Elves suck (and I give them a couple buffs to negate this), and I tend to already play up their 'Fey' heritage.

If I'm not mistaken, in Warcraft 3 has gnomes as pilots of flying machines...suitably technologically advanced by any measure, I would think.

In terms of party roles...

Human - Medium Any
Elf - Medium Caster
Half-Orc - Medium Melee
Half-Elf - Medium Stealth? They really don't have a role.
Halfling - Small stealth...ostensibly good at walking. Not so good at dropping rings into holes.
Gnomes - Small caster...potential builders of situationally useless things.
Dwarf - Small(ish) melee. Doesn't like beardless things. Or trees.

IMO, look a any core race, and you can find at least one other race capable of filling its "role in the party" so to speak. That's not really a good argument for eliminating races. The argument, "Our group doesn't enjoy the flavor of race X", is a better reason for excluding a race from your campaign IMO.

Whenever I see threads like this pop up, I notice that most people fall into the "I hate Gnomes" or "I hate Halflings" camp. It always baffles me the level of disdain shown for the little races. I guess I just don't get it. *sigh*

Edit: On the subject of the inventor role...Dwarves never really struck me as inventors. They're craftsmen and artisans, but always struck me as dutiful, traditional workers. Gnomes, on the other hand, are innovative. If we were to put both races together, we would see Gnomes inventing, and Dwarves in manufacturing and mass production. The two roles complement each other, rather than overlap.

[Eldan]

Whenever I see threads like this pop up, I notice that most people fall into the "I hate Gnomes" or "I hate Halflings" camp. It always baffles me the level of disdain shown for the little races. I guess I just don't get it. *sigh*


It's because manliness is in direct proportion to largeliness.

My pop culture reference of the day. :smalltongue:

[Trufflehound]

My gnomes will henceforth either live in forest tribes like those of endor or live in death dungeons like those of tucker.

[Lord Raziere]

The point of gnomes is obvious.

To make you wonder what the point of Gnomes is. :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Gnomes (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Gnome) in the default Pathfinder campaign setting have an interesting fey flavour, I think. These aren't garden gnomes, kiddies.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, Pathfinder certainly had an interesting take on gnomes. First of all, they're not necessarily pranksters or steampunk. Some are composers, others are explorers, still others are mages. What all of them have in common is a constant need for wonder and excitement. Literally, because if they fall into a long period of boredom, they start aging in a process known as the Bleaching, which usually kills. Those it doesn't kill become bleachlings, whom even gnomes find creepy.

This physical need for variety and interest is what fuels the gnome psyche. They pull pranks to see the reactions they get. They tinker to explore the mysteries of the world. They do whatever they feel will stave off the Bleaching and keep them young.

The point of gnomes in Pathfinder is to present a relatively alien mindset that players can use. Gnomes are weird because they're foreigners to the world, but they're not entirely incomprehensible.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Raven's Cry. Yeah, that's pretty much it in that article.

[Titanium Fox]

Because you need ammo, and your leadership feat happens to supply a steady stream of willing ally gnomes who line up for the honor of being thrown at enemies by you.

You just inspired me for an incredible build.

Thank you good sir. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

[SuperPanda]

I vastly prefer gnomes to having yet another elven sub-type in my games. The rules have grown to the point that I could have a full party of elves with no two being the same "race."

On a side note, I took the trickster quality and expanded it into a whole religion and culture thing a while back which made the gnomes of my world the most inquisitive race.

A brief synopsis on how I've used gnomes.
A preview of gnomes as I've used them across a few campaigns:
The leader of a group of gnomes is know as the world-speaker for they are the one who speaks with the world and learns its secrets. The high priest of the gnomes is called the prankmaster, for above all it is their task to keep laughter in the hearts of the gnomen people. Gnomen NPCs tend towards magical and "gish" classes with an emphasis on indirect combat while also having the most advanced engineering skills.

The "comic" tinker routine comes from a combination of having lower quality materials than a dwarf and being too excited about making something brand-new to bother with too many tests. Young gnomen inventors are hazardous to be around. Old ones are either very very good, or had better self control (high Int or High Wis).

The Prankster persona is culturally passed on by the belief that "laughter is the best medicine" or in more DnD terms "The greatest darkness is when there is no light left to lift the heart." and so gnomes use pranks to keep their friends laughing and to teach lessons. Learning through experience allows you to learn faster and better, and experiencing through pranks means you'll be alive (if unhappy) at the end. They consider it a sign of respect to prank people because if you didn't like the person in question why wouldn't you just let them die? Of course, they also don't prank without reason (typically, at least they are taught not to).

The tend towards the sort of clever arrogance common among those who consider themselves too bright to be fooled. In one of my worlds a book of prophecy written by the gnomen god(s) foretold that the peak of the greatest gnomen city ever -Gismoise- would stand taller after its fall than it ever had in its rain. The first gnomen leader, upon reading this, devoted three years to working out a way figure out how that could happen and then ordered a city built to those specifications.

Of course, all of this was in a campaign where I had a gnomen caster imbue an otherwise +1 rapier with an effect that would "save the wielder's life at the expense of his pride" after the bard with a death wish made a point of trying to schmooze cheap magic items off students in a gnomen mage's school. When he finally figured out that was on the sword, or rather that that wasn't on the sword anymore, the party had an interesting discussion about what would happen to him in roughly a months time (player liked to joke in a male chauvinistic fashion and the half the table who were girls didn't appreciate that). He not only learned his lesson, but he became very motivated to find a cure. I considered it a win/win.

[Ravens_cry]

.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Raven's Cry. Yeah, that's pretty much it in that article.
Nah, you didn't Ninja me, friend; you put it far better then I did. I just provided a link and comment about how gnomes in Pathfinder are "fey". You provided a whole exposition. But yes, I like their alien weirdness, a kind of mental Uncanny Valley.

[Talya]

D&D gnomes also fill the traditional fantasy (older than tolkien) dwarves niche. D&D dwarves are too large, sturdy and warriorlike to do it. Heck, they're medium sized!

[Serpentine]

This again? :smallconfused:
Okay, so they can fill the 'crazy awesome tinkering/steam punk' role, a sort of 'prankster' role, and... that's it. I don't understand what the point of gnomes is. =\"What's the point of dwarves? Okay, so they can fill the "drunken blacksmith role", a sort of "stoic tank" role, and... that's it. I don't understand what the point of dwarves is. =\"
"What's the point of elves? Okay, so they can fill the "freedom-loving naturey" role, a sort of "mysterious being" role, and... that's it. I don't understand what the point of elves is. =\"

...And so on.

Generic gnomes are the tinkerers. The ones who experiment with magic and turn it into technology and make handy gadgets for the home that get stuck in drawers and make good wedding presents.

In my own games, they have several roles:
- Goblin Isle gnomes are the main humanoids in the Goblin Isles. Think a cross between medieval Italy and the Caribbean in the golden age of piracy: a shifting morass of island-states constantly at war with some and with fragile alliances with others. Their ships are always at the cutting edge of maritime war technology, and a gnome is always welcome on a ship all over the world. They are currently developing the warforged as domestic slaves to handle all agriculture and so on at home while they focus on killing one another.
- Cliffton gnomes left the Goblin Isles to fit into more peaceful (and generic) tinkering roles. They're pretty much your classic gnomes. Family is a big deal to them.
- Mainland gnomes are sort of this world's equivalent to medieval Jews - they're moneylenders, bankers and businessmen, mistrusted as crooked, ridiculed as stingy and for stereotypes of their appearance, but rich and influential.

Also, they all love ginger. Alllll ginger. Love it.

One of the best characters I've ever had in a game is a Cliffton gnome.

[LibraryOgre]

The point of gnomes is obvious.

To make you wonder what the point of Gnomes is. :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

Gnomes are a Zen koan? :smallbiggrin:

Or maybe a Zen Cohen? (I've been listening to Leonard Cohen for the past couple days... it's starting to effect me, I think)

[ericgrau]

Dwarves hide in the mountains, elves hide in the treetops, humans hide in cities, halfings hide in hills and gnomes hide in illusions and other trickery (also, in the forest). IMO the more awesome method of the five. They're also prominent alchemists. Ya just tricky overall. Mechanically the con and size bonuses - including touch AC and better overall carrying capacity from smaller gear in spite of lower strength, oddly enough - make them great casters.

[NineThePuma]

Mark Hall gave me the best answer so far: a break down of the point of gnomes in every previous edition. x3 That sort of insight is valuable and can be used for awesome refluffery of other races.

The general consensus is "Gnomes are to dwarves what elves are to humans" / "Short Fey People" I guess. Good to know, but it doesn't exactly have a role in my world, since my Elves don't HAVE the 'Fey People' role; that role, instead, goes to a lovely people called the fey. But I digress, I've gotten a bunch of answers moving in the same general direction.

And to the people who are repeatedly raising a "What's the point of everyone else?" angle, there might be no point to anyone else, but gnomes stand out as pointless to me, hence the thread. By all means, keep making the argument, but understand, that angle just reinforces the fact that they don't have a point. To me, it's like being unable to answer a question on the test, so you write an essay about why the other questions are all too easy to be on the test.


@Gullintanni: Gnomes were not in WC3; Dwarves effectively ate them.

[randomhero00]

Gnomes are the predecessor to halflings. Gnomes came about circa ~ 1600s. Halflings came about from Tolkien's interpretation (and probably thought they sounded funny too, so he reinvented them as halflings.)

Gnomes are a a type of fay from the old stories/times that were earth elementals (not really the DnD type of earth ele tho). They're put in probably as an homage. Plus DnD started off by coping everything else. Mine as well copy gnomes too.

PS if you go way way back you get elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings are all the same. (or almost, there is a division between light (living in the heavens) and dark (living underground). Anywho, it all goes way way back to the old norse legends about Dökkálfar. As time went on they got split up into different races. Dark elves, light elves, gnomes, dwarves, and halflings. But really they are all the same. So when including elves et al, why would you leave out gnomes only?

[Yora]

[citation needed]

Just because those things are pretty much what I do at university, and I'd like to know more about it.

[randomhero00]

[citation needed]

Just because those things are pretty much what I do at university, and I'd like to know more about it.

Citations needed, who me?

[Yora]

The general consensus is "Gnomes are to dwarves what elves are to humans" / "Short Fey People" I guess. Good to know, but it doesn't exactly have a role in my world, since my Elves don't HAVE the 'Fey People' role; that role, instead, goes to a lovely people called the fey.
Then you shouldn't have them in that world. For that reason my setting doesn't have dwarves and halflings.

Gnomes are miners, and I don't have any place for drunken scottish vikings. Gnomes are short and sneaky, and I don't have any place for rekless kleptomaniacs.

[kyoryu]

However, Halflings have a "purpose" and a typical role within the party; more over, you can actually build them a pretty good culture without stepping on any of the other races toes. Dwarves are craftsmen, and, honestly, I might be spoiled by Warcraft 3, but they always struck me as the most likely to be technologically advanced. Elves suck (and I give them a couple buffs to negate this), and I tend to already play up their 'Fey' heritage.

Dwarves are craftsmen. Gnomes are mad scientists. (Assuming the tinker gnome stereotype)

[The Glyphstone]

The point of gnomes is at the tip of their conical hats. Sharp, too.

[Eldan]

Actually, gnomes wear Tricornes with ostrich plumes.

Also, silly Firefox. "Tricorne" certainly exists and is a very important word.

[Dr.Epic]

What?! You don't understand gnomes?! Ams you insane? Gnomes are awesome!

[Yukitsu]

When I was developing the core races of my system, I asked this very question, and wanted to know why all my players asked that they be included. I ended up throwing them in simply because it seems to be an obligation now, rather than their filling any niche in particular.

I tossed them inventor stuff, but since that's what I have to humans as their racial abilities, they end up being kind of like short humans.

[dsmiles]

I'm not sure of the origin of gnomes in D&D, and their position in 1e and 2e was still somewhat nebulous.
They were also one of the few races (AFB, but Gnomes and Humans, IIRC) that could be Illusionists.

The point of gnomes is at the tip of their conical hats. Sharp, too.AAARRRRGGGHHHH!! I'm too late!!

EDIT: Personally, I don't use Gnomes in my campaign settings. I replace them with Steampunk Mad-Scientist Goblins.

[Trufflehound]

Actually, Tolkein had gnomes in the earlier drafts of the Silmarillion.

To quote: "The great march of the Gnomes was long preparing."
"In the land of Mithrim they fought the first of the battles of the long war of the Gnomes and Morgoth."

These were more the tinkering versions of elves than the fey version of dwarves.

And they weren't that short, really.

[LibraryOgre]

What do you WANT to be the point of gnomes? Where do they fit into your world, your society?

The thing is, in Greyhawk, they had places. The noniz were in the Kron Hills, in Verbobonc, and Highfolk. They had a strong military tradition, but tended towards the periphery.

In Forgotten Realms, they were similar. Less martial, but still a people who tended towards the periphery. The "Forgotten People", they're called. They're the only ones who have never had an empire of the major races; even the halflings have Lurien, and 2e had them of the opinion that they were going to be the next major power. The gnomes don't have an empire, and don't seem inclined to build one, instead being content to have their small places away from everyone else (in the Great Dale or other places).

In many ways, I've used (rock) gnomes as being similar to medieval Jews, mixed with a bit of Woody Allen humor. They're not isolationist, per se, but tend towards their own groups, doing work in gnomish shops when they're in a larger city. They're not overtly martial as a culture, but that's because they don't need to be, and they'll defend themselves ably if they need to.

[Eldan]

Actually, Tolkein had gnomes in the earlier drafts of the Silmarillion.

To quote: "The great march of the Gnomes was long preparing."
"In the land of Mithrim they fought the first of the battles of the long war of the Gnomes and Morgoth."

These were more the tinkering versions of elves than the fey version of dwarves.

And they weren't that short, really.

He later named them "Noldor". They were tinkerers, who made such gadgets as the Silmaril :smalltongue:

[Yora]

And we all know how much those baubles improved life for everyone in middle earth for centuries to come. :smallamused:

[Thinker]

You can't have a medieval age setting without oppressed and persecuted minorities. I don't think that any of the aforementioned races fit into this category and, given all the initial jokes about gnome hurling/punting, seems to fit with preconceptions about them.

Here's a quick run-down of ideas for them:

Gnomes are mystical.
Gnomes are cunning.
Gnomes are untrustworthy and are in league with <insert dangerous spirit/god/demon>.
Gnomes steal things at night.
Gnomes are responsible for <insert disaster>.
Gnomes live in isolated villages to avoid confrontations with other races, but have no lands of their own.
When in larger settlements, gnomes form tight-nit groups within those communities and keep to themselves.
Gnomes have a rich tradition of mysticism, religion, and education.
Gnomes are blamed and persecuted by the majority group whenever something goes wrong.
Witch hunts normally begin by questioning a gnome, who may be in league with the dark forces.


I think this would contrast nicely with the other races without stepping on their toes and probably fills a niche you weren't yet considering.

[Roderick_BR]

Seriosly? For 2 reasons:

1st) They got some of the hobbit's characteristics, while halfling got the others. Just compare what a halfling + gnome would be, and you'd get a hobbit. Really, just compare them.

2nd) To have a non-dwarven magical dwarf. As in, something "tough" looking like dwarves, but able to use magic. That was before 3.0, when it went "everything goes".

I think AD&D does say that halflings, gnomes, and dwarves are all cousins.

[Jjeinn-tae]

I personally am rather fond of Gnomes, Mainly originating from my Gnomish Necromancer in Everquest. The name GIBBLE strikes fear in the souls of those who hear it, and if it doesn't he'll suck their soul out.

Gnomes to me are four things:

Engineers, they create all manner of machinery running the gamut to safe and practical, to ridiculously ramshackle and insane.

Powerful Mages, wielding unknown arcane arts, able to use them for subtlety or raw power.

They have a very complex social society, revolving around favors and knowledge. This was most prominent in EQ and Eberron. They seem like a happy people, but spending time among them you really see that they seem to be pretty heavily subjugated behind the scenes; and care must be taken who you tell what, as knowledge very literally is power.

Then, they all tie in with the fact that they are very emotional, but with a heavy logic focus, granting quite a bit of uncertainty on how they're going to react. This is what caused the mass public experimentation that the Gnomes practice.

It also seems the more knowledge a gnome gets, the more unhinged they become, master mages and tinkerers have a complete lack of common sense, and they also lack a sense of self preservation. They are prone to go nova on strange provocation, while being serenely calm in adversity.



Of course, these are my interpretations, but its why I like them.

[slaydemons]

Seriosly? For 2 reasons:

1st) They got some of the hobbit's characteristics, while halfling got the others. Just compare what a halfling + gnome would be, and you'd get a hobbit. Really, just compare them.

2nd) To have a non-dwarven magical dwarf. As in, something "tough" looking like dwarves, but able to use magic. That was before 3.0, when it went "everything goes".

I think AD&D does say that halflings, gnomes, and dwarves are all cousins.

good sire you are mistaken on number one even in the movie trilogy lord of the rings they said it, "WE'RE HOBBITS, HALFLINGS, SHIRE-FOLK." I believe they were yelling in that seen so hence the caps, I also thik I got what they said.

now for my second point, its like saying what is the point of humans? if you look too deep into things you tend to notice they make no sense.

[Solaris]

good sire you are mistaken on number one even in the movie trilogy lord of the rings they said it, "WE'RE HOBBITS, HALFLINGS, SHIRE-FOLK." I believe they were yelling in that seen so hence the caps, I also thik I got what they said.

now for my second point, its like saying what is the point of humans? if you look too deep into things you tend to notice they make no sense.

Tolkien's hobbits (and halfling was just another word for hobbit much like orc was another word for goblin) aren't D&D halflings.

What he's looking for is a clearly-defined role for gnomes that doesn't involve explosions for fun and profit.

[jmelesky]

The general consensus is "Gnomes are to dwarves what elves are to humans" / "Short Fey People" I guess. Good to know, but it doesn't exactly have a role in my world, since my Elves don't HAVE the 'Fey People' role; that role, instead, goes to a lovely people called the fey.

What, then, is the point of the elves, if their point has been taken by another homebrew race?


And to the people who are repeatedly raising a "What's the point of everyone else?" angle, there might be no point to anyone else, but gnomes stand out as pointless to me, hence the thread. By all means, keep making the argument, but understand, that angle just reinforces the fact that they don't have a point. To me, it's like being unable to answer a question on the test, so you write an essay about why the other questions are all too easy to be on the test.

Note: when i asked about the point of elves above, i wasn't asking this question, just specifically what their point was in your gameworld.

But this question is actually incredibly relevant. Because you're conflating two separate things, and when people ask this question, they're obliquely pointing out that conflation.

Individual races in 3.5 do not have a "point" (and, yes, that includes gnomes, elves, and even your "the fey"). Their purpose is to provide options and the mechanics to make those options meaningful in the game. That's all. Just some crunch with fairly anemic and entirely optional fluff.

Races in, say, Krynn, however, fulfill specific roles. Kender are amoral thievy buggers, gnomes are ivory tower psychopaths with 400-page-long names, half-elves are broody bastards, standing apart from the communities of both of their parents, etc.

But there's nothing inherent about half-elves as a 3.5 race that makes them broody or unwelcome in human and elf worlds. That's all stuff we add.

So, ultimately, the question "what's the point of gnomes?" doesn't make sense. Of course they have no point. None of the races do.

Now, the question "what role can gnomes fill in my game world?" is a much more interesting and worthwhile question. And there are all sorts of possibilities.

Traditionally, gnomes have been strongly associated with illusion magic. So gnomes can be the hidden race -- always around, but never seen, living among other races in hidden burrows below their streets/trees/mines/etc.

Or, you can associate them with technology. Dwarves are perfectionists, while gnomes are innovators. Perhaps they have a rivalry. Or perhaps they have a synergy, and tend to work together.

Gnomes have a longstanding association with money. Perhaps they're bankers and merchants, the way goblins were in the HarryPotterverse.

The possibilities are practically limitless.

[dsmiles]

If gnomes have to be in it, I can see Forest Gnomes. The really, really tiny ones. (I don't even know if they made it from 2e to 3.5, though.)

[Honest Tiefling]

I believe the race from Races of Faerun is Tiny, not small. And they are very reclusive forest dwellers. Sound similar?

[dsmiles]

Dunno, never read it. I've only played in the Realms once in 3.5, and played a Human.

[Eric Tolle]

Well, I think that what people were saying is that all races are equally pointless. But for some ideas on Gnomes...

1. So why do gnomes seem like a cross between elves and dwarves? It's because they are. Gnomes are the dwarf/elf equivalent of half-elves. Like half-elves, gnomes are a self-perpetuating race; unlike half-elves, they haven't tried to integrate with either elven or human society, but have formed their own reclusive society in the forest.

2. Gnomes are an attempt to correct the failing of the design of elves; that is, inherently magical forest dwellers with a connection to nature and the fey world. Elves in D&D didn't turn out so well in portraying well, elfishness; they made better thieves than mages, and their abilities seemed more based on selective reading of Tolkien than anything else. Gnomes on the other hand with their ability to speak to animals and illusion abilities can better fulfill the roles elves were intended to, either forest guardian or master of magic.

3. Consider elves and halflings both in this manner; suppose you had to live in a world dominated by 12' tall giants? They're big, powerful, cities and towns are mostly made to their scale, and they dominate the world. So how do you survive in a land of giants? Well on the one hand, you might live among them, taking on the guise of harmless lawful pastoral nobodies or charming nomadic traders, while concentrating on your abilities for stealth and deception, so that you can duck trouble when it comes. Alternatively, you can live as apart from the humans as practical, focusing on abilities of illusion and misdirection, communicating with local animals, to spy out and neutralize threats to your homes. So you have halflings and gnomes as different ways of dealing with a race of towering, bellowing, violent bigjobs.

4. It's all about the gold. Gold and power. Control of gold, control of politics, control of those bellowing idiotic humans who think they are masters of the world. It's about spinning complex and subtle webs of conspiracy and domination that extend through centuries. Let the humans have their Waterdeep and Baldur's gate... the gnomes have Zurich.

[Ashram]

Well, in Pathfinder gnomes got refluffed from "Beardless dwarves who focus on tinkering with stuff" to "Fey descendants that still tinker with stuff and have to do exciting stuff or they die".

[dsmiles]

1. So why do gnomes seem like a cross between elves and dwarves? It's because they are. Gnomes are the dwarf/elf equivalent of half-elves. Like half-elves, gnomes are a self-perpetuating race; unlike half-elves, they haven't tried to integrate with either elven or human society, but have formed their own reclusive society in the forest.Huh. I've always used sterile Half-breeds (Orc, Elf, Etc.)


4. It's all about the gold. Gold and power. Control of gold, control of politics, control of those bellowing idiotic humans who think they are masters of the world. It's about spinning complex and subtle webs of conspiracy and domination that extend through centuries. Let the humans have their Waterdeep and Baldur's gate... the gnomes have Zurich. BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAA!!! :smallbiggrin:
*Ahem.* Illuminati, much?

[Urpriest]

Lemme see, in my settings...

I've got an ancient Egypt-style setting where gnomes are time traveling archaeologists from the Victorian era (and sort of ambiguously Jewish).

I've got an oceanic setting where gnomes pilot city-sized airships and halflings are literally children who never grew up (I call them the Everchildren...creepy buggers).

So it looks like I mostly use gnomes as steampunk tinkers. That said, the burrowing animals and fairies approach has always resonated with me at least somewhat, and it's certainly a less jarring way to take them for most settings.

[Evil the Cat]

I've always found that the point of gnomes is to be gnomes.

It is easy to compare gnomes to the other races, just like it is fairly easy to compare any of the other two races to each other. They have differences and similarities with all the other races, but they are ultimately quite unique.

Gnomes, at least as I've always seen them, find the most wonder in the world. They see everything as an opportunity for creativity, fun, or excitement. They enjoy crafting, but unlike the dwarves who focus on practicality, or the elves who focus on beauty, they like to come up with a "perfect" combination of the two. Every little thing they do is just an opportunity in disguise.

I really don't see the gnomes as being in the same role as any other races at all. There will always be overlap between the races. Just because there is some overlap does not mean that any of the races loses its individuality.

Gnomes have always been my favorite race to play in D&D, so I'm a little biased. To me, gnomes don't need to be defined in terms of any other race.

Gnomes are industrious, yet fun-loving. Gnomes are individualistic, and have strong family ties. Gnomes are close to nature, yet enjoy civilization. Gnomes love magic, and technology.

tl;dr: Gnomes are qifferent from the other races, and have their own niche.

[erikun]

Gnomes are the only inately magical base race for 3.5e. They are also the "curious and inventive" race, next to the "artistic" elves, the "craftsman" dwarves, and the "mini-humans" halflings.

[Trufflehound]

2. Gnomes are an attempt to correct the failing of the design of elves; that is, inherently magical forest dwellers with a connection to nature and the fey world. Elves in D&D didn't turn out so well in portraying well, elfishness; they made better thieves than mages, and their abilities seemed more based on selective reading of Tolkien than anything else. Gnomes on the other hand with their ability to speak to animals and illusion abilities can better fulfill the roles elves were intended to, either forest guardian or master of magic.

I think the reason elves in D&D don't seem very elfish is the playing, not the race itself. I haven't met anyone who can play an elf with the maturity and grace of a 300 year old. And that's young for an elf.

WotC did a bad job of portraying Tolkeins gnomes, though. It's rather pitiful.

[Solaris]

I have a setting that's kind of Arthurian steampunk. A major theme is the conflict between the natural world and the fires of industry (though I admit, I come down on the side of industry). After reading what some people in this thread have said, I think I can once again find room in my setting for gnomes - but halflings are still out.

Gnomes are balance. See, I don't like a race that exists for comic relief. I like them having black senses of humor with a penchant for practical jokes, but I'm not fond of them being pun-spouting buffoons like they are in 3E. I liked them being connected with the natural world, but having the inquisitiveness and inventiveness to come up with something beyond "Trees are great" and start coming up with things like "the wheel" and "central heating". That's not to say they're good for being tinkerers who come up with technosorcery; no, they're archaeologists and paleontologists, botanists and zoologists, scientists who enjoy research and discovery, not the building and making of things that go boom (I already have goblins for the boomshinery).

I'm also going to have them be the ancestors of the elves and the 'missing link' between elves and dwarves.

[SPoD]

The real answer to the OP's question:

D&D was invented in the 70's. Gnomes were popular in the 70's due to best-selling coffee-table book (http://www.amazon.com/Gnomes-Wil-Huygen/dp/0517270730/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1307676418&sr=8-4) about their lives and such, first translated to English in 1977. So AD&D included gnomes, in order to tap into that market. Fast-forward 30 years later, and they're still around.

That's it. There's no more "point" to them than that.

[JadedDM]

Well, I saw it like this:

Dwarves - Fighters
Elves - Mages
Halflings - Thieves

So I connected gnomes with clerics. I made them a race of very religious, studious sages and monks (err, the Buddhist kind, not the martial arts kind). I altered their stats so they are better suited to being clerics (a bonus to Wisdom, for instance). So now they fill a niche in my world.

[lord pringle]

Gnomes are my settings comic relief, engineers and the best way to freak my players out. (GnomTek explosion table.)

[Serpentine]

And to the people who are repeatedly raising a "What's the point of everyone else?" angle, there might be no point to anyone else, but gnomes stand out as pointless to me, hence the thread. By all means, keep making the argument, but understand, that angle just reinforces the fact that they don't have a point. To me, it's like being unable to answer a question on the test, so you write an essay about why the other questions are all too easy to be on the test.The point is, there is no more or less "point" to gnomes than there is to any other race. Thus it's totally pointless* to single out gnomes for this criticism.
Like any other race, gnomes have their stereotypes and generic fluff, but ultimately it comes down to what you, as DM, worldbuilder and player, make of them.


*point point point

[NineThePuma]

What, then, is the point of the elves, if their point has been taken by another homebrew race?

Me being a fan of a few bits of fluff that 4e has, I took 4e's "Trinity Of Races" and focused the three elf sub-races (Eladrin, Drow, and Sylvan; High, Dark, and Wild elves respectively) into being masters of a 'school' of magic (Arcane, Psionics, and Natural/Nature). Culturally, they were once the greatest civilization on the planet, controlling everywhere. But a class 1 apocalyptic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ApocalypseHow) event (that was perpetrated by the closest thing to a god in the setting) actually wiped out most of the race, and only recently have they recovered from the event enough to be considered as a demographic (Like, no one tries to appeal to the albino demographic, cause there aren't enough to make it a demographic).

My setting is very heavy on interracial mixing, with only the Dwarves and the Orrukai being 'separate' and holding onto their own distinct lands.

And, on record, 'The Fey' I mean are the FEY, like, Pixies and Nymphs and dryads and stuff.

[FatJose]

Gnomes are kind of slopped together. Mechanically and fluff wise they're a mess. Any fluff change requires a change to their stats as well. Personally, I just smashed Halflings and Gnome stats together, picking out specific things and discarding the rest, made a few tweaks and called 'em Gnomes. Made them super serious but highly curious inventors who study and experiment with magic like it we're Rocket Science. Well, more like Nuclear Physics.

EDIT: Part of their problem is that Gnomes aren't a super old creature of myth.They date back to the 1500's. They were an alchemical symbol for the Earth element. Making them Elementals or Outsiders next to Undines, Sylphs and Salamanders. Instead, D&D gives them +2 to Alchemy as a nod to their origin and then go ahead making them Lawn Gnomes.

-They're good against Giants somehow, who knows.
-They hate kobolds for some reason, useless after level 3. Useless at level 1. You want to fight kobolds? Buy a cat and call it a day
-They seem to be sort of subterranean? They talk to burrowing mammals and are tight with Dwarves but don't get Darkvision?

I just don't get it.

[Seatbelt]

Whats the point of gnomes? I hate halflings, but I want to play a small race...

[Coidzor]

Me being a fan of a few bits of fluff that 4e has, I took 4e's "Trinity Of Races" and focused the three elf sub-races (Eladrin, Drow, and Sylvan; High, Dark, and Wild elves respectively) into being masters of a 'school' of magic (Arcane, Psionics, and Natural/Nature). Culturally, they were once the greatest civilization on the planet, controlling everywhere. But a class 1 apocalyptic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ApocalypseHow) event (that was perpetrated by the closest thing to a god in the setting) actually wiped out most of the race, and only recently have they recovered from the event enough to be considered as a demographic (Like, no one tries to appeal to the albino demographic, cause there aren't enough to make it a demographic).

Ok, so what is their point then?

[Dsurion]

I dunno guys, elves are just humans with pointy ears. Dwarves are just short humans with beards. And halflings are just plain short humans. If there's no point to gnomes, there's no point to really any of the core races. They're just humans with rigidly enforced social stereotypes and a minor mutation.That's why most of my group's games simply do away with them all. There's nothing wrong with a fantasy game without Elves, or Dwarves, or the hundreds of other fantasy "races".

[NineThePuma]

They're the best at their respective magical arts, and the race has basically been emphasized toward them; I stuck with the concept of 'favored classes' but ignored the EXP penalties and stuff. Their 'hat' so to speak is Precursor, with a dash of Neglectful Precursor in there. With the demise of their civilization (which only the Dwarf civilization has been around long enough to see), the Elves lost most of their lore.


In anycase, the reason I made this topic is because I need a place for gnomes, or I need to dump them completely. Having a place for them is hard, because the two niches I mentioned in my Op are taken (prankster; namely, given to the Fey/pixies/etc) or plain outside of the tone I want (technological/tinkering/steampunk/magitech people).

[erikun]

Well, you've pretty much changed the setting so that Everything is Elves and there isn't much else important. Gnomes could definitely play the inquisitive and inventive angle, being the ones most curious about recovering the ancient elven magic. If not - perhaps because humans are already doing it - there probably isn't much of a "point" beyond every other race in your campaign. I mean, what are the halflings/orcs/kobolds doing?

I am not quite sure what point the Dwarves are in your campaign, beyond the "not a human mut" angle, and I'm not sure why you'd need two different races for that.

[NineThePuma]

Dwarves have got the whole "Xenophobic Theocratic Military State" going. They worship "The Godking Miradar" who is actually a pretty nice guy. Epic level LG Artificer/Paladin/Dwarven Defender. The culture has a very big 'familial' focus, and I liken them to the sor of "brothers in faith" sort of concept. The culture is a meritocracy that has a heavy emphasis on delegation; Miradar actually takes time out of his schedule to regularly visit with his worshipers. One of the key points of the character, to me, is that he is a very personal and friendly "god" and himshowing up when someone needs advice, or comfort is frequent.

Halflings are wandering nomads, actually relatively close to the standard fluff, but I happen to like Eberron and kept the Halfling Dinosaurs. Unfortunately, the culture beyond that is vague, as I haven't put much thought into them. I do know that I want them to be 'homeless' in the sense that they've got no lands to call their own.


The Orrukai, typically referred to as Orcs, are a race of hardy nocturnal warriors with a Druidic tradition. They are known for their tenacity in battle and tribal structure. Their lands sit firmly between the Human kingdoms and the territories of the truly savage races, and while the Orrukai are not much loved by humanity, there is a fierce hatred between the Orrukai and the Goblinoids. This hatred leads to orcs attacking many raiding parties of goblinoids.

I'm still debating on allowing half orcs.


These small, territorial, reptilian humanoids are the kin to and worshippers of the Great Beasts known as Dragons. While only a few are truly deserving of the name "Wyrm" those who are prove to be quite majestic, despite their size. Spitting bolts of energy, flying on wings sprouted from their back, and proving powerful arcanists, the Dragonblooded are clearly the ideal of the species; those who are not as pure of blood are wingless creatures, skilled with traps and impressive craftsmen. In either case, they are commonly known for their ability to form comprehensive battle plans and show a remarkable ease in working together.

Kobolds are irrevocably tied to dragons in my setting, and since dragons have been altered, it's hard to describe them. Suffice to say that they're not intended to serve as a player race in a typical party.

[Eric Tolle]

Hmm. So basically elves in your game are the annoyingwhiners who need to be repeatedly kicked in the shins until they stop whinging about the tragic loss of the first kingdom and everything that was beautiful and pure. I volunteer the gnomes to do the kicking; I'll even buy them steel-tipped boots.

Heck for your game, I'd make the role of gnomes to be a race created to make sure the elves never get any real power again. By hook or by crook.

[NineThePuma]

... Who said anything about them whining? :smallconfused: And if they needed to be kicked, the Tarrasque can kick them pretty damn well.

[Eldan]

Let the humans have their Waterdeep and Baldur's gate... the gnomes have Zurich.

Ahahaha. A joke. How amusing. I like this humour, it is a fine art.

[Xanmyral]

Usually when you see gnomes, you think of tinkerers, or someone to laugh at. When I think of gnomes, I explore the underdeveloped part of them, that is the fey. The thing about fey is that they are strangely underused, and the best parts of them got turned into the mush you probably got fed to by your parents when you were a child. If you want the good fey, and by good I mean interesting, look to the medieval ages. Curdled milk, ruined crops, sickness, missing children, miscarriages... They were blamed for quite a bit, and usually shown as to have done it for nothing more then a cheap laugh. Play up the fey part. People think of gnomes as tricksters? Fine, but make them to the point where it is only a trick to them. Trick by some random Joe you might know? He might, at worst, put something sharp in your seat. Trick by a gnome? All your stuff is stolen, sold, used to pay for mercenaries to raid your house, take your family and sell them to slavery. This wouldn't necessarily make them evil, they just don't consider others who aren't fey... People. Gnomes are constantly looking for new things, which could mean a number of things. Maybe an inventor gnome wants to see what the effects of this strange energy that emits from this glowing rock will have if you surgically put it into a human. Perhaps a wizard gnome needs test subjects for his spells, and wants something he can magically manipulate into telling him everything that happened via enchantments when he tests his spells on them. Maybe a chef gnome is trying to think up of a new cuisine, and spots a human child wandering alone, far from his parents...

In other words, explore their fey side. You can take this as light, or as dark as you wish. Frankly, I never really looked at gnomes twice, always thought of them as token race of scientists. When you dig more into what a gnome is though, it is interesting for the fact that no one has really done anything that has stuck besides the tinkerer, or jester thing.

[Serpentine]

In anycase, the reason I made this topic is because I need a place for gnomes, or I need to dump them completely. Having a place for them is hard, because the two niches I mentioned in my Op are taken (prankster; namely, given to the Fey/pixies/etc) or plain outside of the tone I want (technological/tinkering/steampunk/magitech people).I've seen no evidence of that purpose from you in this thread, just yet another "how could anyone possibly like those boring old gnomes?" topic.
If you actually genuinely do want ideas for interesting ways to adapt gnomes to your game, then why didn't you say so?

You don't want anything about tinkering or technology - a shame, as that's one of my favourite bits - so there's no point going into any detail on my techonology-driven-by-war idea.

What about focussing on their illusion skill, then? Maybe, at some point in the past or still in the present, there was a massive genocide committed against them. Alternatively, they just evolved to have that secretive niche. The need to survive forced them underground, perhaps literally into burrows if you want to incorporate that aspect*. Perhapse they become more like small mammals such as rats, in appearance and/or behaviour. They hid themselves away, shielding themselves with their magic. Maybe everyone thinks that the gnomes are all extinct, when in fact the nice greengrocer down the road is about 4 feet shorter than he appears.
These gnomes become survivalists. Their illusions become Serious Business - pranks could get them all killed. It would also pretty much necessitate that all gnomes be Illusionists, though, unless they had a thriving market in illusion-based items to share amongst themselves.
I'm unfamiliar with 4e's rules for gnomes so I can't help you there, but if I were to do this in one of my 3.5 games I would probably do something like this:
RAW•+2 Constitution, -2 Strength.
•Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
•Gnome base land speed is 20 feet.
•Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
•Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
•+2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions.
•Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.
•+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids.
•+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
•+2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
•+2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.
•Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc. In addition, a gnome can speak with a burrowing mammal (a badger, fox, rabbit, or the like, see below). This ability is innate to gnomes. See the speak with animals spell description.
•Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level.
•Favored Class: Bard. A multiclass gnome’s bard class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.
My preliminary version•+2 Intelligence or Wisdom (depending on how I wanted to fluff them), -2 Strength.
•Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
•Gnome base land speed is 20 feet.
•Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
•Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat any weapon with "gnome" in the name as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons (this is actually a default houserule of mine - racial weapons are always martial for their race).
•+2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions.
•Add +2 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.
•+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against [whatever creature or group tried to destroy them all]. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
•+4 racial bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.
•Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc.
•Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day— Disguise Self. A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level.
•Favored Class: Rogue?


*that's one I've never been especially keen on and tend to houserule out, but in my opinion it's distinct from the dwarves' underground living in the same way that, I dunno, naked mole rats are different to rabbits - or a slightly more distant analogy, goblin sharks vs. great white sharks. Dwarves can live their entire lives deep underground, embedded in the stone, without ever seeing so much as a sunbeam. Gnomes, conversely, do or used to burrow near the surface, using the upper levels of the ground as shelter, but coming into the light of day all the time. Contrary to apparently popular belief, the two are actually very distinct ways of life.

[Killer Angel]

You don't want anything about tinkering or technology - a shame, as that's one of my favourite bits - so there's no point going into any detail on my techonology-driven-by-war idea.


The tech stuff can be refluffed into magic.
Give 'em a bonus to Int, rather than Con, and makes them masters of magic.
Magical objects? 4 on 5 are created by gnomes.
Ancient spells? written by gnomes.
New magical researches? they're on the edge.
They collect legends and lores, they have hidden, huge libraries, they are keeper of knowledge, and they're serious about it.
Everyone in the world wants a gnome advisor, and so on.

edit: BTW, I don't see the (usual?) equation Illusion = funny tricks at parties. Illusions can change the tide of battles.

[NineThePuma]

... Damnit Serpentine. =\ Between you and Kamigawa, the Nezumi are going to force me into including them somehow! (Yes, somehow your pitch for gnomes translated into a pitch for rat people)

[dsmiles]

Ahahaha. A joke. How amusing. I like this humour, it is a fine art.It's really too bad we can't play Illuminati online. :smallbiggrin:

[Roderick_BR]

good sire you are mistaken on number one even in the movie trilogy lord of the rings they said it, "WE'RE HOBBITS, HALFLINGS, SHIRE-FOLK." I believe they were yelling in that seen so hence the caps, I also thik I got what they said.

now for my second point, its like saying what is the point of humans? if you look too deep into things you tend to notice they make no sense.

I didn't explain well. TSR (or whatever was it's name back then) didn't want to mess with Tolkien family's lawyers, so they got halflings (that is pretty much a silly joke) and gnomes, instead of hobbits, as they were more original creations than folklore of dwarves and elves (even if the D&D ones are obviously inspired on Tolkien's version, but the names were free).

[EccentricCircle]

I deliberately included Gnomes in my latest setting as they've not really been a part of any of my earlier games.

Gnomes and Halflings are both descended from a race of Fae creatures who were sent into the world to spy upon the mortals. the halflings are descended from tribes who forgot where they came from and either settled down in small communities, or are still wondering the world because *thats what they are meant to do* albeit they don't recall why.

the Gnomes have a somewhat darker backstory in that they became enamoured of the technology of men and dwarves and were actually exiled from Faerie. The Fae reckon that the gnomes have chosen their side and are activley trying to wipe them out. in a recent game I revealed that the Elves were once Eladrin who spent too much time in contact with cold iron and lost their immortality. this could well be the reason the Faerie courts (who are the same imortal Eladrin who watched their children wither and die through spending too much time in the world) are so violently opposed to the gnomes interest in technology.

[T.G. Oskar]

Part of their problem is that Gnomes aren't a super old creature of myth.They date back to the 1500's. They were an alchemical symbol for the Earth element. Making them Elementals or Outsiders next to Undines, Sylphs and Salamanders.

I wholeheartedly believe in this as well. I mean, when I think of Gnome, I think of a dark-skinned human-shaped elemental, made of dark-gray stone and jeweled eyes, throw the trickster aspect so far away it catches more air than a punted gnome (well, they still have a bit of it, but abandoning that trickster aspect is considered a sign of maturity), make them aloof and absent-minded but extremely focused on their craft, and rogue in the sense that they don't mind despoiling nature if it advances science and technology. Dwarves and humans are considered the two races with a penchant for technology, so gnomes are the response of nature to that. They might be thought of as the "fae" of technology, but they're more of a spirit representing something other than the barren earth.

That's something I'd wish I'd seen regarding elementals. Aside from the Princes of Elemental Evil and perhaps the Elemental Weirds (basically elemental seers), elementals aren't seen as anything other than summoned creatures with limited intellect and a drive to protect their chosen element. I resent that Salamanders were treated as Outsiders, since they could do well as war-minded Elementals representing the aspect of Mars (which was the alchemical symbol for Fire IIRC, much like the symbol for Earth was either Venus or Jupiter). And there's little, if any, mention of Undine or Sylphide as elementals with improved intellect. I blame that on how the concepts of fae and elemental spirit are so intertwined, you may find elementals having a very strong fae feel.

Oh, I almost forgot: Garl is still their deity, but it's more of an "imaginary friend"; stopping to believe in him is treated as the defining point between the child gnome and the adult gnome. So they'd be the Flat Earth Atheists of the D&D world, more akin to apatheists than atheists or misotheists (they do understand and respect some beings of god-like power; they just don't actively worship them as dwarves would for Moradin or elves would for the Seldarine). And also, they lose anything related to illusion; when they have the ability to glide through earth and manipulate stone to their bidding, they don't need illusory abilities (halflings, on the other hand and as someone else mentioned, would do well with the illusory boon, so much that Shadowcraft Mages would be accessible to Halflings).

[Toliudar]

I...don't think I understand why the provenance of a race in folklore and literature needs to impact its relevance to a game. Hobgoblins in D&D are absolutely nothing like the darkly mischievous sprites of folklore, but that doesn't keep them from having the potential to be a rich and interesting race. No one complains about warforged being completely bastardized from the original in Tolkein.

Sure, there's a lot of fluff about the ways in which gnomes have been used - forest protectors, masters of illusion and trickery, technologists and scientists. I love the crunch of the race, and like playing small-sized races, so have tried all of those. But I've also been delighted to play gnomes in worlds in which they are cast as:


A refugee race dispossessed of their homeland by a devil-lead army.
A grim race of assassins and infiltrators.
A group of steampunk-inspired LE overlords who have enslaved the kobold and lizardfolk races to do their bidding.
A tiny enclave of Tippy-inspired spellcasters who manipulate world events for their own obscure goals.

In short, I think that the race is more than flexible enough to fill any of a hundred roles within a game.

[Eldan]

Warforged originated from Tolkien?:smallconfused:

[dsmiles]

Warforged originated from Tolkien?:smallconfused:Yeah, can we get a source on that? :smallconfused:

[Zombimode]

In anycase, the reason I made this topic is because I need a place for gnomes, or I need to dump them completely. Having a place for them is hard, because the two niches I mentioned in my Op are taken (prankster; namely, given to the Fey/pixies/etc) or plain outside of the tone I want (technological/tinkering/steampunk/magitech people).

What I dont get is why you are so keen about giving Gnomes a "role" that doesnt overlap/isnt already filled by other races/cultures.

Lets take for example the Prankster. In your setting, Fey have this sthick. Now, these Fey are probably rather small and noone would take them seriously anyway. Maybe they have a pretty alien mindset so that a serious confrontation with them is mostly impossible.
On the other hand Gnomes may be a bit silly and like to play pranks on other beeings. But they could be more grounded in civilized life. They are large enough to be taken seriously and maybe one of their traits is to switch very fast between silly and analytical when appropriate.
Both races fit the prankster role in a way, but they differ in detail.

Having mutiple races which are superficial similar but not quite equal add diversity to your setting. Which is a good thing in my book.

If you look at the heap of creatures presented in the various Monster Manuals you see many of them are rather similar in their role.
Ie. Ogres and Verbeegs. Both are large giant humanoids and rather brutish and simple minded. But still, when I design an adventure I am not at lost when I have to decide between Ogres and Verbeegs. Some situations call for Ogres and others for Verbeegs. I can make this decision because while these two races are similar they are not equal. Each has characteristics the other one lacks.
Same is true for Orcs and Hobgoblins, Goblins and Kobolds, and many more.

"Dangerous swamp-dwelling reptilian predator" is also a role. But why should there be only one creature to fit this role? Bio-diversity enriches a setting.

Look at the Earth setting. Whats the point of having Lions, Tigers, Leopards, Pumas and Gepards? They all fit the same role! :smallamused:

[NineThePuma]

Ignoring the cat comments (they don't fulfill the same role, cause they're different species with different tactics; to make matters more amusing though, the primary predators for my brewed world are wolves, who hunted big cats almost to extinction) and your comparisons to other species with generalizations...


You're saying that pixies, brownies, and other sprites aren't possibly trickster enough for the role? That the Gnome's namesake's older brothers can't out do the gnome?

[dsmiles]

You're saying that pixies, brownies, and other sprites aren't possibly trickster enough for the role? That the Gnome's namesake's older brothers can't out do the gnome?

I think the point was, "Why can't there be overlap in racial niches?" There's overlap in nature, after all.

How many kinds of herbivorous bird do you think there are in one region, just one? How many types of insectivorous birds do you think there are in one region, just one? How many types of predatory insects there are in one area, just one? These are all niches in nature, and there is plenty of overlap between species.

[NineThePuma]

In a world where some of the people in this niche can turn invisible and others can't, can you see the visible ones being able to survive the aftermath of their irate victims? Especially when those victims have to worry about similarly sized creatures invading their homes and killing their kin.

Nature isn't really a good comparison for this, especially when player races are involved; otherwise I'd use a Generic Racial Generator.

[Gullintanni]

You're saying that pixies, brownies, and other sprites aren't possibly trickster enough for the role? That the Gnome's namesake's older brothers can't out do the gnome?


I think the point was, "Why can't there be overlap in racial niches?" There's overlap in nature, after all.


Moreover; there's overlap in every core 3.5 racial niche.

Elves for Magic
Gnomes for Magic
Elves for Stealth (Grey Elves)
Halflings for Stealth
Half-Orcs for Martial
Dwarves for Martial
Humans for Everything (Optimized)
Half-Elves for Everything (Not)

The issue with Pixies, Nixies etc. taking the trickster/illusionist role is that they're unplayable due to RHD and LA. Now if only they had created a creature to fill that role that didn't suffer from those kind of playability issues...hmm. :smallamused:

[Serpentine]

Ignoring the cat comments (they don't fulfill the same role, cause they're different species with different tactics;Some have different tactics (cheetahs vs. mountain lions, for example), but not all of them. The fact that they're different species is kinda the point.
Take instead, then, opossums, possums, red pandas and tree kangaroos. Or rabbits, bilbies and hares. Or any other example of parallel evolution.
In a world where some of the people in this niche can turn invisible and others can't, can you see the visible ones being able to survive the aftermath of their irate victims? Especially when those victims have to worry about similarly sized creatures invading their homes and killing their kin.So they take a different slant on the same niche, employ slightly different tactics for the same end - or, conversely, employ the same talents in different ways.

[NineThePuma]

I'm tired and irritated due to exams, but I have decided on a role for Gnomes.

They're extinct since the days of yore, when the elves got annoyed and culled them all from the face of the planet.

This may or may not be why the elves got smacked down by Gaea.

[Zombimode]

Ignoring the cat comments (they don't fulfill the same role, cause they're different species with different tactics; to make matters more amusing though, the primary predators for my brewed world are wolves, who hunted big cats almost to extinction) and your comparisons to other species with generalizations...

No, see, thats EXACTLY my point. You seem to recognize the differences between the various feline predators, despite them beeing extremely similar to each other when compared to say sharks, crocodiles or bears. Yet you seem to have a problem including Gnomes in your setting because the share some vague similarities with other races.
This is what I dont get.



You're saying that pixies, brownies, and other sprites aren't possibly trickster enough for the role? That the Gnome's namesake's older brothers can't out do the gnome?

Huh? No, Im saying that both Fey and Gnomes could be "tricksterish" while keeping different racial indentities. And that the setting would be probably a richer place because of that.

[Urpriest]

More to the point, pixies and nixies and the like aren't PCs.

4e's Dragonborn are redundant because there are already fire-breathing reptilian creatures with militaristic cultures and codes of honor...and they're called Dragons! However, since Dragons aren't typically PCs, 4e promotes Dragonborn as a way for players to scratch that itch. Similarly, unless you're playing with Carnivore, you probably won't have a bunch of players just sucking up the +4 LA and being pixies. If you want a PC race with a tricksy and fey bent, you need one that is humanoid rather than fey. That means gnomes.

[NineThePuma]

Or, you know, Feytouched. =\

[Urpriest]

Or, you know, Feytouched. =\

Which have no reason to have any of the culture of Fey whatsoever. And are thoroughly bland.

[Gullintanni]

In a world where some of the people in this niche can turn invisible and others can't, can you see the visible ones being able to survive the aftermath of their irate victims? Especially when those victims have to worry about similarly sized creatures invading their homes and killing their kin.

Nature isn't really a good comparison for this, especially when player races are involved; otherwise I'd use a Generic Racial Generator.


Or, you know, Feytouched. =\

Kind of putting the cart before the horse there. You're arguing for eliminating a core race based on an obscure (outside of these forums), relatively flavourless template?

On the subject of invisible fey wreaking doom on their Gnomish brethren, please note that humans, half-orcs, elves and half-elves all have fewer tricks in their bag to rebuke troublesome Fey that they've angered. Gnomes, sharing some kinship with the Fey on the other hand, are less likely to be victimized then many of the more expansionist core races. Frankly, if any species is going to be eliminated at the hands of invisible Fey, it won't be Gnomes.

Moreover, Gnomes are, assuming the relative scarcity of other Fey, much more adaptive breeders. Nature shows us that creatures that can reproduce more effectively are more viable.

Finally, Fey are generally peaceful, if fickle creatures. Hence the majority having Good somewhere in their alignment block. If anything, what you'll see is Good Fey fighting off evil Fey jealous of their niche. Gnomes, whose numbers and jovial nature make them more suited for integration with other civilized races, will remain largely separated from the affairs of fey-kin, while providing for the trickster/innovator/creative role in civilized society.

[Serpentine]

Also: gnomes don't have to be pranksters.

But still, if you decide that gnomes can't have a fondness for tricks and pranks in their background because fey are super-tricksy, I presume no humans will be hard-working, stoic blacksmiths nor arrogant nature-lovers nor thieves. After all, there's other races out there that have those covered...

[LibraryOgre]

I wholeheartedly believe in this as well. I mean, when I think of Gnome, I think of a dark-skinned human-shaped elemental, made of dark-gray stone and jeweled eyes,

Actually, change the "stone" to "wood" and that pretty well described the standard rock gnome... with stone, you're talking svirfneblin. Their eyes are bright and traditionally jewel-colored, and the most common word in describing their skin color has always been "wood".


It's really too bad we can't play Illuminati online. :smallbiggrin:

You already are.

[jmelesky]

Look, if you don't want to have gnomes in your world, don't! It's your world, build it however you want.

I think people are getting frustrated because, instead, you came onto the board saying "give me a reason gnomes should exist at all", and followed that up with either "that reason makes no sense" or "not in my game world".


Part of their problem is that Gnomes aren't a super old creature of myth.They date back to the 1500's.

Neither are orcs or halflings, which date back to early last century.

[NineThePuma]

Except, I'm including Feytouched explicitly in my world, and am giving them a fragmentary culture; or at least, a role within 'normal' fey culture.

[FatJose]

I'm tired and irritated due to exams, but I have decided on a role for Gnomes.

They're extinct since the days of yore, when the elves got annoyed and culled them all from the face of the planet.

This may or may not be why the elves got smacked down by Gaea.

You can use that and still have gnomes. Maybe they didn't "really" go extinct. You don't want pranksters or super mage scientists so that leaves the third interpretation. The Smurf. They aren't tricksters, they're survivors. Their spells can work excellently to pull pranks on people but that's coincidental. Like a lizard who's tail can fall off and move like its still alive or a Chameleon who can match it's environment, Gnomes are built to survive by "fooling" their enemies. But they may not do it out of actual enjoyment as opposed to the drive to not be killed outright.
It doesn't make them Pranksters, though PC's might still fall into this role since the life of an Adventurer would mean your gnome PC would be like Bilbo to LotR's Hobbits. Strange eccentrics who don't conform to the Gnomish code of "Hide and Run Away and you wont be sorry."
You could make them a completely non-PC race and a sort of Deus Ex when the PCs need help. Or use them as a way to send a message to PCs in a less direct and mysterious way.

[NineThePuma]

You could make them a completely non-PC race and a sort of Deus Ex when the PCs need help. Or use them as a way to send a message to PCs in a less direct and mysterious way.

Or I can just kill them all off, and blame it on the elves. Yeah, that works.

[FatJose]

Or I can just kill them all off, and blame it on the elves. Yeah, that works.

Well, you could have done that without making a thread about it. :smallconfused:
I did pretty much the same thing in my campaign...well, actually, no. At least the gnomes in your game "had" a role in the setting. I kind of just chose one over the other and called it a day.

[NineThePuma]

I wanted to know if there was something I was overlooking, really. There wasn't, so I dumped them. I'll slip the halflings a little bit of illusion capabilities and give them a few things to make them sexy beguilers.

[kyoryu]

It's really too bad we can't play Illuminati online. :smallbiggrin:

But we are... oh! You didn't... I thought.... Oh, you meant...


Nevermind. Don't see the fnords.

[randomhero00]

I'm positive gnomes exist; I've seen them on lawns across the country. I've tried interrogating them. Tried to find the reason they have been invading lawns everywhere. But all I get is silence. And when I kill them to leave no evidence all I get is an empty shell....they sure are tricksters! It seems they can escape at will and leave behind these ceramic armored husks.

I personally think they are developing a new body armor. Don't believe me? Check out the latest military armor. Ceramics! They're trying to keep up! They must be planning an invasion of some sort.

[dsmiles]

This. This is the point of Gnomes.http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/ninja-garden-gnome-statue-1.jpg

[Necro_EX]

I know I'm chiming in a tad late, but I figured I may as well.

It might just be me, but when I'm worldbuilding I don't often try to fit entire races into simple niches. It depends on the race, of course, but I make the effort to have everything feel organic and the idea that a race does _____ and only _____ makes no sense to me. To use gnomes as an example, I don't really like how they're almost always treated as either arcane/fey tricksters or mechanics it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Now, they might have a social propensity for such things, but it shouldn't always be an inborn part of the race (unless your gnomes are fey creatures, then it makes sense for them to be tricky little bastards). In the setting I'm working on their society is very Greek in nature, they live in a mass of city-states and each of those city-states is going to have its own unique flavor, and I might just make room for both of those common archetypes, but I don't like the idea of just saying "gnomes do ______ and fill _____ niche in this world," I rather enjoy them having some more variance.

To look at another example, let's talk about elves. Now, they have a strong history in our world's folklore and even there it's varied quite a bit. Norse elves were tall and beautiful, but the elves in most other folklore were short little sprites. Now, it's common in fantasy for them to be tall, lithe, charming, delicate, and magical. I'm fine with that, but I really love the idea of subraces; they allow you to take one race and split it into several to fill out the world. The setting I'm working on has 6 races of elves (Wood, High, Dark, Sand, Frost, and Savage) each of which does fill a certain niche, but I'm trying to give each of them a varied enough culture to allow for any of them to fill any role. There are a couple different wood elf societies in this setting, one's more human (in that they build permanent housing from stone and harvest trees) and has a very celtic culture, but there's also one further to the south that's very...typical wood elf. Same goes for the dwarves in this setting and certainly for the humans.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really understand why when someone is designing a world they would make the humans the only race that can be varied.

[TheThan]

MY current campaign world has the gnomes as a sub race of halfings. one in every 1000 or so halflings are born with innate magical properties. i haven't worked out any more details but i'm thinking that that is somehow significant to their culture.

anyway, I've also used barbarian jungle gnomes. master trapsmiths and hunters.

[LibraryOgre]

This. This is the point of Gnomes.http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/ninja-garden-gnome-statue-1.jpg

Isn't that one of the Seven Dwarves?

[dsmiles]

Isn't that one of the Seven Dwarves?
I don't know. It's came up in the results for 'gnome ninja.'

[Necro_EX]

Isn't that one of the Seven Dwarves?

Doc, Dopey, Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Bashful, and stabby, right?

[Cerlis]

well its a lawn gnome that may or may not have the same art style as the 7 dwarves.--------------------





I have issue with all this talk of "they arent just...." because even if they arent JUST their stereotypes, doesnt mean they arent that at all.

EVERY gnome has those supernatural abilities.of anything it most of all sets them appart from the other races. whether 4.0 actual fey, or vaguely related to the myths about them 3.5...... Gnomes are fey-ish. they are small creatures in a world of dragons and ogres,but still as smart as humans. smart enough to play to their strengths, and in order for them to survive they have to adopt a mind set in which they dont go insane from grief or living with the fact that at any point they may have to use their wit to stay alive do to the fact that a community of small creatures is probably not as physically powerful as say,a fortress city of humans.
They all have the natural ability for trickery. Its stretching it to believe that any gnome's mind wouldnt be greatly effected by the daily life of being a small clever creature who can use trickery for fun or survival or even utility. Every gnome knows from as early as childhood that the world is dangerous, but that they have the natural and supernatural power to do anything they want and change great outcomes through a little wit. UNLIKE humans and elves who can reasure themselves "i have the power to do anything i want" Gnomes PHYSICALLY and LITERALLY can perform magic to alter the world around them without any training at all. I advise re-reading up races of stone, there are large segments about how their mental and cultural philosophy is affected by their supernatural affinity.

------

assuming a gnome isnt inherintly affected by his feyish nature is like talking about an elf who isnt congizant of the fact he can live hundreds of years, or a human who is blind to the adaptibility of his race. Or half-orc who has no idea how savage both his people can be, how evil one can be and how much potential the other has.

In all these races their nature and their nuture is usually something they are aware of and it and their opinion of it affects them throught their life. its possible to have impulsive elves, honest halfings, boring gnomes, unstubborn dwarves. but such would require a severe rebellion, ignorance, and likely isolation from not only their culture, their race,and the very nature of who they are biologically.



-----------
I think the major issue with the feeling that gnomes are useless is that they are small humanoids. We got a pointy pretty human race. a gruff furry human race. a normal human race, a big ugly human race, and a small tricky human race. There is a constant perception that there is some percieved role,and halflings fulfill it. while rather its just a matter of fact that any Small non human race is going to be simular. Small creatures are tricky to survive. just as larger creatures are brutish and mean cus theycan be. If we had more smaller races their individualities would stand out. if we had one or two other bigger races you might say"well whats the point of half orcs".

[Urpriest]

assuming a gnome isnt inherintly affected by his feyish nature is like talking about an elf who isnt congizant of the fact he can live hundreds of years, or a human who is blind to the adaptibility of his race. Or half-orc who has no idea how savage both his people can be, how evil one can be and how much potential the other has.


Plenty of humans go through life unaware of the adaptability of their race. (Insert your favorite banned political joke here)

[I.care.0]

Funny.

I Aways thought that the point of a race is whatever role the DM choose to that race to fill in his gameworld.

Standard Gnomes may be thinkers, but at my table, they're all little nomad frenzied berserkers, masters of guerrilla tactics, that sometimes act like a undying swarm.

If you can't find a role for gnomes in you setting, simply don't use them.

[Talya]

I really prefer gnomes over dwarves or halflings, too. If I were to only keep one of them in a custom setting, it'd be gnomes.

[a_humble_lich]

But we are... oh! You didn't... I thought.... Oh, you meant...


Nevermind. Don't see the fnords.

What fnords? I have no idea what you are talking about.

fnord

[T.G. Oskar]

Actually, change the "stone" to "wood" and that pretty well described the standard rock gnome... with stone, you're talking svirfneblin. Their eyes are bright and traditionally jewel-colored, and the most common word in describing their skin color has always been "wood".

Except I wasn't talking too much about these guys (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG131.jpg), but rather these fellas (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG98.jpg) resembling these guys (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG131.jpg). Note the not-so-prominent term I used: human-shaped elemental.

If it helps a bit more: I don't associate Gnomes with fae or humanoids, but highly intellectual, tech-inclined, aloof, absent-minded, apatheist, earth-despoiling earth elementals. They're still small, but less jagged. But the main point is that they're elementals, and they should hold quite a bit of the stuff that elementals get (including those tasty immunities to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, flanking and critical hits/sneak attacks), with the caveat that they can be resurrected.

[Talya]

Gnomes are covered in "Races of Stone," not "Races of the Wild." I agree they're more rock than wood. :smallsmile:

[LibraryOgre]

Except I wasn't talking too much about these guys (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG131.jpg), but rather these fellas (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG98.jpg) resembling these guys (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG131.jpg). Note the not-so-prominent term I used: human-shaped elemental.

I saw it; however, I think that once you go that far, you might as well stop calling them gnomes. Call them Pech, which seem to be more or less what you're looking for.

[McStabbington]

Well yes, typically gnomes are used to fulfill the "prankster" or the "steampunk craftsman", and it is true that gnomes improperly played can become the team scrappy. But even assuming that those are the only unique roles they can fulfill, that's not necessarily a bad thing: sure dwarves are also craftsman, but can you really see a dwarf thwarting the murder-holes of Tucker's Kobolds by creating fireproof umbrellas? A gnome, properly played, is basically a license to dodge every trap the DM lays down through nothing more than the power of cleverness and imagination and act entirely in character while you're doing it.

[T.G. Oskar]

I saw it; however, I think that once you go that far, you might as well stop calling them gnomes. Call them Pech, which seem to be more or less what you're looking for.

No reason why they can't be called Gnomes other than they have to follow an arbitrary conception of small fae creatures which are either pranksters (something I find best suited to Halflings, which I can't stop equating to the Rroma) or master tinkerers? Gnomes are following some of the stereotypical conventions (tinkerers, small, earth-related) but I decided to go for an exaggeration of Paracelsus' elemental spirits (much like how I'd also consider Salamanders as intelligent AND belligerent elementals instead of fire-themed outsiders) and make it a full elemental. From there, I then went for something that could mix the stereotypical and the atypical, and I ended with the "mad scientist" taken to oddly professional extremes.

If what I've seen of Pech is true, gnomes aren't really what I looked for. They ARE gnome-like (as in, they're small and also earth spirits), but they are meant to be inhumanly strong despite their size, something I don't associate with gnomes. Don't have much appreciation to the lawn gnome/Santa's little helper conception of gnomes either, and given the penchant of D&D of taking liberties with the depictions of mythological creatures (much like how kobolds are reptilian creatures with a draconic heritage instead of fae), I decided to take that bold perspective in mind when giving gnomes a reason to be, even if I still use the "traditional" gnome in my games.

Thing is, if going for what the gnome represents, the mix between its fantastical concept and its mechanical/fluff derivation overlap too much with the rest. Technically, they'd be partly elf (because of the natural bent, and because elves and gnomes are technically similar regarding their origins), partly dwarf (being a "race of stone", plus sharing the technological bent with dwarves on other such games) and partly halfling (owing to their trickster nature). Dragonlance and Eberron offer two quite different and flavorful ways to handle gnomes (the now common "tinker gnome" and the group of scribes, spies and information brokers of Zilargo) but for some reason some stuff seems to be too ingrained, much like how dwarves seem to always depend on ale and have great beards for no reason other than culture (I mean, they could subsist on the fermenting agents of the ale, and dwarven beardliness usually correlates into dwarven manliness and comeliness), but any concept that goes a bit too far seems too far-fetched (why not make them living constructs made of stone and clay?). So, while I felt comfortable with some of the stereotypes of other races (human determination, elven arrogance, dwarven craftsmanship), I felt it was necessary to introduce the elemental nature of the gnome through the lens of how elementals are treated on D&D, which are separate from the fae (although the overlap is so crazy, there's no reason why an elemental spirit cannot be a fae).

[KotserB]

Gnomes are just awesome.
Im not a very experienced D&D player, but there is a gnome fan club.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11058989#post11058989
if you want to know why gnomes are awesome, ask these guys, there must be someone that can provide you with a serious answer.

the only thing i know is that we have the (as far as i know) strongest LA +0 race in the game; whispergnome.

besides, did i say that gnomes are awesome?

follow my awesome gnome in the pirate campaign journal:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192028&page=2

[lerg2]

I like gnomes! Now I want to play a blind gnome wizard who specializes in magic missile..... That is gonna be funny. Blind, wizard, using spell that only misses when you can't see the target. Gnomes have so much RP potential! Plus, they're funny as heck to throw/punt/'go there and jump up and down'. GNOMES!!!!!!!

[Morph Bark]

I think AD&D does say that halflings, gnomes, and dwarves are all cousins.

In Dragonlance they sure are. There were IIRC a bunch of gnomes who found the Chaosgem and they were split into two groups who wanted to have it for different reasons. The ones who coveted it because it seemed an expensive gem were turned into dwarves. The ones who were curious for it and thought it looked wonderful were turned into kender (a halfling variety).