Nale & Sabine: Can these two lovers make it in this crazy world?

[goodyarn]

I love watching Sabine and Nale talk about their relationship. They deal with their challenges the way many couples do, except...you know...evil.

Check out strips 349 and 394, for example.

When Nale tried to seduce and murder Haley, I thought for a little while, "Oh, he doesn't really care about Sabine." But then they talked it out in #394 and I changed my mind.

Given how much work they put in, I have to think they are both sincere. Otherwise, why bother?

I can't imagine their evil schemes will ever succeed. But will their evil love last?

What do you guys think?

[hoff]

I think sabine is in love with him and nale will betray her in order to get power, but first she betrays the IFCC because of nale.

[Cizak]

Well, appearenly Sabine's definition of "love" is very complicated, as she claims to be in love with Nale yet has sex with other people four times in an hour :smalltongue:

[NerfTW]

Well, appearenly Sabine's definition of "love" is very complicated, as she claims to be in love with Nale yet has sex with other people four times in an hour :smalltongue:

It's not that complicated. The strip you're referencing has her stating that sex is just her job. (She is a succubus after all) Love and sex can be mutually exclusive. Although we're entering inappropriate for this board examples, there's plenty of real world couples that are not monogamous who would have the same reaction. Love is trust and friendship, not just a physical activity you do in your spare time. Just because you don't care about your partner having sex with someone doesn't mean you don't love them.

[Jay R]

When Nale tried to seduce and murder Haley, I thought for a little while, "Oh, he doesn't really care about Sabine." But then they talked it out in #394 and I changed my mind.

Go read 394 again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html). He was going to kill Haley. He even said so. But as soon as Sabine said that that wasn't going to mollify her, he changed his story, saying he was going to save her for Sabine. If he were trying to subdue her and tie her up to sacrifice in his room later, he wouldn't have the sacrificial dagger in Haley's room.

But as he had just admitted, and as strip 380 makes clear, he thought of this as a way to amuse himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) when Sabine was away.

He's evil. He makes up lies.


Given how much work they put in, I have to think they are both sincere. Otherwise, why bother?

Sincere about what? Nale clearly desires Sabine for her powers in his evil schemes, and for sex. That does not imply that he has any desire to be faithful to her.

[goodyarn]

Go read 394 again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html). He was going to kill Haley. He even said so. But as soon as Sabine said that that wasn't going to mollify her, he changed his story, saying he was going to save her for Sabine. If he were trying to subdue her and tie her up to sacrifice in his room later, he wouldn't have the sacrificial dagger in Haley's room.

But as he had just admitted, and as strip 380 makes clear, he thought of this as a way to amuse himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) when Sabine was away.

He's evil. He makes up lies.

Sincere about what? Nale clearly desires Sabine for her powers in his evil schemes, and for sex. That does not imply that he has any desire to be faithful to her.

I disagree.

As an aside, Nale tells Sabine in #365 that he can't promise he won't kill Haley himself.

But even with that, sure, Nale clearly lied after the fact. Nale is a liar. That's what he does when he's caught. He doesn't have the character to say "I didn't realize this would hurt you. I'm sorry."

But consider that at the top of #394, he didn't think he was doing anything Sabine would object to. He didn't think Sabine would be upset that he was killing someone without her. Although given the opportunity to cheat on Sabine with Haley, he didn't. From his POV, he *was* being faithful to her.

[Kish]

Sabine's answer to "Do you love him?" from Vaarsuvius was, "Yeah. I mean, I think so. I mean, it's complicated." It would, I think, be a mistake to overrate what we currently know.

We don't know that Nale loves Sabine.
We don't know that Sabine loves Nale.
We don't know that Nale doesn't love Sabine.
We don't know that Sabine doesn't love Nale.

[EmperorSarda]

Another question to ask is if Sabine is capable of loving Nale. After all, she is illicit sex incarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html), she might not be able to love Nale beyond loving his power and lust for evil.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Another question to ask is if Sabine is capable of loving Nale. After all, she is illicit sex incarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html), she might not be able to love Nale beyond loving his power and lust for evil.

Why would being a creature of pure sex prevent you from loving somebody in the emotional sense? :smallconfused:

[EmperorSarda]

Why would being a creature of pure sex prevent you from loving somebody in the emotional sense? :smallconfused:

She may well be able to, just not in the way that we see love. For example, most of us when we love another person think twice about cheating on them. For Sabine, she wouldn't get hung up on Nale seducing and sleeping with another woman. It is something normal to her. Love can be something radically different for Sabine that what we expect it to be.

[The Dark Fiddler]

She may well be able to, just not in the way that we see love. For example, most of us when we love another person think twice about cheating on them. For Sabine, she wouldn't get hung up on Nale seducing and sleeping with another woman. It is something normal to her. Love can be something radically different for Sabine that what we expect it to be.

That's called an open relationship, and still isn't mutually exclusive with love (even as most people understand it), though.

[Dr.Epic]

They're homicidal maniacs and just plain horrible people. Why should I care if the split up?

[Toper]

They're homicidal maniacs and just plain horrible people. Why should I care if they split up?
They're fictional, sketchily drawn characters in a webcomic. You care about them more than is strictly logical already, why not take the extra step to consider their emotions?

Me... well, love is complicated. I think Sabine loves Nale wildly, maybe more than she thought possible when she was given the job (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html). I think Nale really loves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html) her back, even though he takes her for granted more than he ought to (compare Nale's and Elan's reactions to their partners' wounds here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html)). But especially after today's strip, I believe he's in it for the long haul. They're my favorite couple of the strip, and seeing this topic makes me happy.

Who really knows, though? Everyone's arguments are fair, and everyone's known love in different ways.

[GSFB]

She is an evil outsider. She is a creature of pure evil incapable of love. She can only hate to a lesser degree. Anything she projects as love is a lie.

[ORione]

She is an evil outsider. She is a creature of pure evil incapable of love. She can only hate to a lesser degree. Anything she projects as love is a lie.

Evil doesn't preclude one from loving. Good and Evil are more about how one treats people they don't love.

[Gurgeh]

Agreed. Love - and loyalty, and friendship - are matters beyond the purview of alignment. Alignment is about how you view the world by default and how you treat people you have no reason to care about; it's your default response.

I think it's entirely possible for Nale and Sabine to genuinely love each other; just the same way that Belkar's affection for Mr Scruffy seems to be genuine (and hell, to a lesser extent his friendship-or-at-least-tolerance with most of the Order).

[FoE]

I'm certain that Nale and Sabine love each other as much as people like them are as capable of love.

That said, I'm pretty sure Sabine would tear Nale's heart out if ordered to do so by her superiors. Likewise, Nale wouldn't hesitate to gut Sabine if she stood in his way.

[goodyarn]

Evil doesn't preclude one from loving. Good and Evil are more about how one treats people they don't love.


In support of the above argument, I present the following music video, "Evil Love."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK-6Td9INxM

"You can't foil a plan built upon evil love."

[GSFB]

In mortal beings, evil does not preclude love. But Sabine is a freakin' DEMON. She is hard wired from down below to hate and despise everything that is good in the universe. Love is not part of her being. At all.

Saying she can love - a truly good thing - is like saying celestials can commit acts of evil.

[Ancalagon]

What do you guys think?

Given they are the B-string antogonists in the story it is very likely they are dead within a few in-comic weeks (aka before the end of the strip). Maybe they do not even survive this arc. Unless they are the "big boss battle" for this arc, they may not even live until the end of it.
So no matter if they could or could not make it or if they even want or do not want to make it... they won't even have a chance to find out if their relationship would last beyond Sabine's current assignment (be there to make Nale act as useful pawn (while being a pawn herself)).

[Luklan]

I have one thing to add to these crazy arguments of "They Can't Love 'cuz They're Evil", and funny enough, it's on this very website.

Emotional Responses, by Rich Burlew (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html)


In mortal beings, evil does not preclude love. But Sabine is a freakin' DEMON. She is hard wired from down below to hate and despise everything that is good in the universe. Love is not part of her being. At all.

Saying she can love - a truly good thing - is like saying celestials can commit acts of evil.

Celestials can commit acts of Evil. Good can unknowingly commit Evil easily, simply by not knowing all the details, and making a decision based on that. It happens.

There's also the argument that love isn't neccesarily a 'good' emotion, considering the variety of things people have done in the name of love, and the number of ways love can intefere with one's ability to do things in the name of the common good.

I'm still not sure how 'Being A Demon' automatically means she can't Love, though. She is an intelligent (And let's be honest here, more intelligent than the average person) being, even if she is a Demon and magically hardwired towards being Evil. She can have whatever emotion she chooses to have.

[Icedaemon]

They're homicidal maniacs and just plain horrible people. Why should I care if the split up?

Because Nale is amusing and Sabine is probably the most attractive character in this comic?

Oh, and those people who claim that love is a truly good thing need to watch less romantic one-joke-movies-called-comedy-for-some-reason. Love can take many forms - from being overprotective, to being a blind adherent, to a sick covetousness which can lead to murdering the loved one just to keep her/him 'pure' and to oneself.

[rewinn]

As evidence of Nale's love for Sabine, he shows jealousy in 794 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html). This is more than merely a practical manager trying to control a useful team member; he admits he can never be entirely what Sabine wants ... an edgy "good boy"; this is perhaps the first time we see him admit what he considers to be a failing! There's definitely some emotion going on here, although it's complicated (...as love, jealousy and greed often are...)


Evil doesn't preclude one from loving. Good and Evil are more about how one treats people they don't love.Very interestingly said.

Anyone can be good to those they love; it's being good toward those you don't love that proves your alignment.

[Ancalagon]

Celestials can commit acts of Evil.

We have seen what capability for evil Celia has. In this regard, I'd consider her to be a "standard celestial". She does not even understand important aspects in regard to "evil" in the mortal world.
If Sabine is to Demon what Celia is to Celestial, then we have to assume there are other Sabine simply cannot understand, simply because she is what she is.

She might feel something that stems for her (let's assume she has it) love, but the feelings are inherently good (selflessness, compassion, etc) so it is natural she is confused, as those things are nothing she will understand - and as Celia did not want to/was unable to compromise in regard to some acts (Killing the Thieves Guild) in the same way Sabine simply might be unable/unwilling to compromise in regard to certain good point of views/feelings.
The latter would be bad for Nale in certain cases.

So no matter if she can or cannot love, there might still be massive problems in regard to the consequences of that love when it involves "being good" or "admitting to good" (as in selflessness).

We can run around the cake of "love" all the time. But if it is "true" love it simply comes down to one question: Would you give yourself up for the other?
If there is actual love (with every consequence that entails) the answer to that question is bright as a day with clear sky. It's "yes".
If there is no true love, then it starts with "Well, maybe..." or "Sorry, it's not enough". And I honetly do not see a demon doing the first of the two examples - apart from her love for Nale, Sabine seems to be a very, very common demon.

[Gift Jeraff]

Celia is not a Celestial.

Celestials are Outsiders from the Good-aligned Outer Planes (aka the Upper Planes). Celia is an Outsider from the Inner Planes. She is a manifestation of Air, not Law or Good.

[Ancalagon]

Ops. I assume one part of the above makes not much sense anymore. But yes, it totally makes sense she's an elemental-creature. ;)