Does Elan kiss better than Nale?

[Ancalagon]

And how would Sabine react if that was true?

If there are no other important questions to discuss, this one comes to mind in regard to the latest comic...

[King of Nowhere]

Elan is a dashing sowrdsman. Seducing the bad girl is part of what he's supposed to do. I'd be surprised if he couldn't claim any class bonus to perform (make out).

That said, i don't think that will affect the nale/sabine relashionship. All we've seen so far suggests sabine sincerely loves nale. If you love a person, you don't dump him/her because someone else kiss better.

[super dark33]

Elan is a dashing sowrdsman. Seducing the bad girl is part of what he's supposed to do. I'd be surprised if he couldn't claim any class bonus to perform (make out).

That said, i don't think that will affect the nale/sabine relashionship. All we've seen so far suggests sabine sincerely loves nale. If you love a person, you don't dump him/her because someone else kiss better.

not in my country! :smallwink:

[Manga Shoggoth]

Come on! Elan does everything better than Nale.



Elan is a dashing sowrdsman. Seducing the bad girl is part of what he's supposed to do. I'd be surprised if he couldn't claim any class bonus to perform (make out).

Nope. He was doing that even when he was a straight bard as well. Haley wasn't pleased.

[FujinAkari]

Nope. He was doing that even when he was a straight bard as well.

He isn't straight anymore? O.o

[Lord Bingo]

We cannot judge if Elan is a better kisser than his brother from this strip but we can be pretty sure he knows how to sweep a woman of her feet, if his past record as well as chosen profession is any indication. As for Sabine, she is an incarnation of lust (more or less) so it might be hard for her to resist being manhandled.

[derfenrirwolv]

He isn't straight anymore? O.o

Sabine is technically whatever gender she wants to be at any given moment...

[Lesingnon]

Well you'd expect a Bard to be good with his tongue.

For umm...singing, of course.

In all seriousness though playing some musical instruments, like the trumpet for example, are supposed to make you a better kisser. Though whether Elan plays any that do I'm not certain of. But given that he's a Bard and therefore has a musical leaning I wouldn't be surprised if he was a better kisser, I suppose.

[veti]

I suspect Elan is, in fact, a better kisser than Nale - simply because Nale is completely selfish, whereas Elan isn't.

I also believe that Sabine - given who she is - has absolutely no concept (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html) of faithfulness. She doesn't "love" Nale, she's loyal to him in the same way as a familiar is loyal to its master - because that's her job. The sex (with Nale and everyone else) is purely for fun. But I don't imagine she'd let fun stand in the way of her job.

[Boogastreehouse]

I suspect Elan is, in fact, a better kisser than Nale - simply because Nale is completely selfish, whereas Elan isn't.
It's subjective, of course. Sabine is the type of girl who finds that sort of selfishness arousing, so to her Nale is probably the better kisser.

This is why real-world d-bags (can I say "d-bag" here?) often have no shortage of girlfriends.

That's what the whole "edgy 'good boys'" joke was all about. Normally a girl with bad judgement would admit to being attracted to "bad boys," but Sabine is so evil, her guilty pleasure is the opposite.

[Kurald Galain]

Elan has been taking lessons from Belkar :smallamused:

[ThePhantasm]

Elan has been taking lessons from Belkar :smallamused:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Elan.png

[MoonCat]

Elan has been taking lessons from Belkar :smallamused:http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Elan.png

<chokes on soda from laughter>

[SPoD]

He isn't straight anymore? O.o

Does that one time at Bard Camp count?

[TheSummoner]

Of course Elan is a better kisser than Nale. Sabine wouldn'tve been half as distracted otherwise.

[GSFB]

Sabine doesn't love Nale or anyone else. She is an evil demon incapable of love. Nor is she loyal to Nale. She has a job - with the IFCC. She is loyal to them. She just plays the part with Nale because it furthers her mission.

That all said, I think Elan did surprise her with his passion. It caught her off guard. For a second there, she forgot about Nale and the IFCC both.

[Ramien]

Elan kissed so well, he could've got his levels back if it wouldn't have been more dramatic to make the sacrifice of taking on more negative levels.

[Lither]

Well you'd expect a Bard to be good with his tongue.

For umm...singing, of course.

In all seriousness though playing some musical instruments, like the trumpet for example, are supposed to make you a better kisser. Though whether Elan plays any that do I'm not certain of. But given that he's a Bard and therefore has a musical leaning I wouldn't be surprised if he was a better kisser, I suppose.

When playing a trumpet, you essentially blow raspberries into the mouthpiece. Just you try that when kissing.

See what happens. :smalltongue:

[Bedinsis]

Elan had a circumstancial bonus from "Unholy gods! I'm kissing one of those edgy good guys!" As to who's the better kisser, I don't know.

Anybody noticed how Sabine's tail rolled up after having finished kissing? Does that mean anything, like a dog wagging it's tail?

[ThePhantasm]

Anybody noticed how Sabine's tail rolled up after having finished kissing? Does that mean anything, like a dog wagging it's tail?

I interpreted more as he left her all tingly, like he kissed so well it gave her goosebumps or something.

[Hironomus]

Sabine doesn't love Nale or anyone else. She is an evil demon incapable of love. Nor is she loyal to Nale. She has a job - with the IFCC. She is loyal to them. She just plays the part with Nale because it furthers her mission.

That all said, I think Elan did surprise her with his passion. It caught her off guard. For a second there, she forgot about Nale and the IFCC both.

HEY!! :smallfurious:

Evil people can experience things like loyalty, friendship and love. You are being racist... or alignmentist or something.

Even a purely evil being isn't totally emotionless.
I actually think there is a part in the book of exalted deeds that deals with whether demons can love or not.

[le Suisse]

Even a purely evil being isn't totally emotionless.
I actually think there is a part in the book of exalted deeds that deals with whether demons can love or not.

A emotionless being is neutral. It mean than he don't mind to kill you.
The thing in the Exalted book is a picture with two succubus and a paladin girl.

[Adicted To]

Elan had 1 level drained prior to the kiss. In episode 647 Elan says "taking another level as a bard instead of the next level in Dashing Swordsman" Meaning when he started to kiss he still was a Dashing Swordsman. (even if he only gained one level since the battle at azure city) So he still had the "irresistible by the opposite gender” feet.

So it is irrelevant whether or not Nale kisses better than Elan. Even if Nale was the best kisser in the world Sabine would be unable to resist Elan.

:elan:

[Asta Kask]

I suspect Elan is, in fact, a better kisser than Nale - simply because Nale is completely selfish, whereas Elan isn't.

I also believe that Sabine - given who she is - has absolutely no concept (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html) of faithfulness. She doesn't "love" Nale, she's loyal to him in the same way as a familiar is loyal to its master - because that's her job. The sex (with Nale and everyone else) is purely for fun. But I don't imagine she'd let fun stand in the way of her job.

Not as a familiar to her master - say more like a friend. With benefits. And given her experience, that's probably a sizeable benefit.

[IronWilliam]

I think Elan is better, probably because he has a higher Charisma score. Nale focuses on intelligence, while Elan focuses on charisma (his pluckocity is constant:elan:). With all of Nales multiclassing, he probably had to spread his stats out a fair bit.

[ORione]

I think Elan is better, probably because he has a higher Charisma score. Nale focuses on intelligence, while Elan focuses on charisma (his pluckocity is constant:elan:). With all of Nales multiclassing, he probably had to spread his stats out a fair bit.

Agreed, although Nale must have some charisma, since he's a sorcerer.

[Hironomus]

A emotionless being is neutral. It mean than he don't mind to kill you.
The thing in the Exalted book is a picture with two succubus and a paladin girl.

All I'm trying to say is that I like the idea of a demon or other unquestionably evil being, being motivated by more than hatred, anger or sadism. I like to think they aren't limited to one side of the emotion scale simply because thats how they are generally portrayed. I have played an evil character who was a devil worshipping mercenary, but had principles such as not abandoning comrades and putting others (allies) before himself. It worked rather well.

I think that whatever the true nature of their relationship is, it is genuine. If anything I would be more suspicious of Nale's fidelity than Sabine's. For her cheating is a given. He feels he has to be covert about it. Sabine seems to take thier relationship fairly seriously.

I doubt Nale's kissing skills come into it. Sabine has undoubtedly kissed hundreds of beings. Some of them surely better than Nale AND Elan. She is probably attracted to his mind or his general evilness more than anything else.

[Snails]

A succubus loves a powerful man. Even more than that, a succubus loves destroying a powerful man. And even more than destroying a powerful man, a succubus loves seeing a powerful man choose to destroy himself out of love/lust for her.

On top of Dashing Swordsman class bonuses for turning the bad girl, nothing says "with my last breath, I would choose to kiss you" like willingly taking multiple negative levels -- that is something that Sabine would find completely irresistible.

And it is something that Nale just cannot compete with, except with his actual last dying breath.

[Snails]

I doubt Nale's kissing skills come into it. Sabine has undoubtedly kissed hundreds of beings. Some of them surely better than Nale AND Elan. She is probably attracted to his mind or his general evilness more than anything else.

While I applaud your general take that evil persons can be generally rational, I do not think this reasoning applies to a Succubus and love/lust very well. A Succubus is an incarnation of dangerous & self-destructive lust. She inspires such in others and she loves inspiring such in others.

Quite frankly, a person who is merely very powerful and rational and very evil would soon bore a succubus to tears.

The demon in Sabine surely admires the bloody-minded high risk & high reward path Nale has taken. But with the kinky seduction attempt of Haley behind them, he offers nothing to the succubus side of Sabine.

[King of Nowhere]

This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) really gives me the impression that sabine loves nale.
Of course she has no problems on cheating on him, but she probably doon't understand the concept of "cheating" and "fiddelity". Just because OUR society is monogamic, it don't mean otehr beings can't be other way. To her, loving a person has nothing to do with having sex with only that person and no one else.
It's just like those who practice exchange of couples.

In general, don't forget that when dealing with people from other cultures, or beings from other planes, we may easily fall into blue and orange morality. Don't make the mistake of assuming others must have our own values just because we couldn't conceive having different values.

[ORione]

This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) really gives me the impression that sabine loves nale.


I agree. She has no reason to lie when V asked if she loved Nale, and if she did want to lie, she would have said something other than, "Yeah. I mean, I think so. I mean, it's complicated."

[Kish]

I agree. She has no reason to lie when V asked if she loved Nale, and if she did want to lie, she would have said something other than, "Yeah. I mean, I think so. I mean, it's complicated."
She had every reason to lie if a completely truthful answer would have included such not-for-Vaarsuvius information as "my species is incapable of love*" or "the archfiends assigned me to him."

*Note, please, I am not asserting that succubi in OotS are necessarily incapable of love. I am asserting that she had every reason to deflect any question Vaarsuvius asks which would require Sabine-identifying details to give a straight answer...and that if she truly and unambiguously loved Nale, there would have been no need for more than the first word of her waffly answer.

[Dvandemon]

I wouldn't be surprised if in their confrontation with Elan, Sabine and Nale are torn apart like how Nale brought Haley and Elan together.

[137beth]

Since when does Sabine limit herself to kissing Nale? She's perfectly willing to do anyone, regardless of her relationship status. The fact that Elan could kiss better (assuming that isn't just some crazy forums theory) means nothing.

[King of Nowhere]

She had every reason to lie if a completely truthful answer would have included such not-for-Vaarsuvius information as "my species is incapable of love*" or "the archfiends assigned me to him."

*Note, please, I am not asserting that succubi in OotS are necessarily incapable of love. I am asserting that she had every reason to deflect any question Vaarsuvius asks which would require Sabine-identifying details to give a straight answer...and that if she truly and unambiguously loved Nale, there would have been no need for more than the first word of her waffly answer.

No, the reason that strip makes me think sabine loves nale is not what she says. It's the whole way she act, starting when she sees nale with haley. Lookk her face, her expresssions, the fact that she get drunk as a result. Sabine is clearly hurt by nale's behaviour, and she couldn't be if she didn't care about him. Even the face she has in the 10th panel of last strip (794) shows internal turmoil.
Of course, sabine is hurt by the idea that nale wanted to kill-steal on her, and she didn't care if he wanted to seduce another woman. That's part of the blue and orange morality i mentioned. But she surely cares deeply about nale.

[Seb Wiers]

Anybody noticed how Sabine's tail rolled up after having finished kissing? Does that mean anything, like a dog wagging it's tail?

You've never heard the expression "toe curling ecstacy"? Its a fact, lots of people do it, as a reflex. I'm guessing its the same kind of thing.
Also, the tail might lift up like that to, um... avoid becoming an obstacle.

Or maybe Rich just thought the spiral of the tail was a good match for her facial expression; its a dizzy kind of shape.

[The Succubus]

A question - is the level draining thing automatic when you kiss a succubus or a power the succubus draws on at will? IT's just I recall a strip in Cliffport where Nale was smooching Sabine up against a wall with no sign of any level draining going on.

[Ancalagon]

A question - is the level draining thing automatic when you kiss a succubus or a power the succubus draws on at will? IT's just I recall a strip in Cliffport where Nale was smooching Sabine up against a wall with no sign of any level draining going on.

You already answered your own question, you even included the proof from the comic yourself. ;)

[Snails]

This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) really gives me the impression that sabine loves nale.
Of course she has no problems on cheating on him, but she probably doon't understand the concept of "cheating" and "fiddelity". Just because OUR society is monogamic, it don't mean otehr beings can't be other way.


Yes, I think you are probably correct that Sabine feels genuine love for Nale. I also agree that trying to judge sexual mores when the relationship involves a succubus is probably silly.

However, Sabine is cheating on Nale in a more fundamental way. If we go back a few strips further, we see that Sabine is actively informing on Nale to the three amigos. THAT is likely to get Nale permenantly killed, if he ever actually gets close to his ultimate goal.

Sabine understands the risk to Nale perfectly. She is just acting exactly how one would expect a treacherous succubus to act.

[veti]

I don't think Sabine is capable of love. She's not a person, she's a demon - a being of pure negative emotions.

The evidence for her 'loving' Nale is, basically, that she experiences jealousy. Jealousy is possessive, controlling, greedy - it's a fundamentally selfish emotion, exactly what you'd expect of a demon. It's not love.

[Jay R]

This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) really gives me the impression that sabine loves nale.

But we later learn that her emotional response had nothing to do with love or sex, but was about the fact that she wanted to be the one to kill Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html).

Even she isn't ready to say she loves him without immediate caveats

[GSFB]

It is one thing to say an evil person can still love. But Sabine is not a person. She is a fiend. She is a spirit of pure malevolence made into flesh only by presence on the material plane. She is a personification of hate, despair, pain, misery and death - who uses lust to trick mortals into succumbing to the pleasures of the flesh at the expense of love. If she ever truly experienced LOVE, it would destroy her.

[Ancalagon]

I think that is the twist to it.

The IFCC are fiends that are not as firmly rooted in their alignment, and Sabine is a fiend that seems acutally to be able to love.
In all her evilness, this one "good" quality is making it all more complicated for her.
That is why it is "complicated", she is not actually an expert on love (especially as her race should not be able to love) but she does feel something for Nale.

Maybe it is not even real love but Sabine does seem to feel something for Nale. It makes a good story and othervise I find it hard to explain the dialogue between her and Vaarsuivus and also her reaction towards Nale for cheating on her (she just does not consider sex to be cheating, but that is in this regard only a minor detail).


On the other hand it would also make a nice story if we found out she simply can switch her feelings for Nale off and betrays him. "Nale, buddy. What did you expect? She is (and has been all the time) a freaking Succubus?"
While an "ah, so Herzschmerz and Angst driven storyline about a demon who lives between two worlds and is cought between her being an evil demon and her unnatural (to her) love" would surely be an interesting thing (and the thing that I believe we do see at the moment) I'd also appreciate a Nelson Muntz like "Haha" for Nale (and in all honesty: He'd totally deserve something like that):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

[Luklan]

I said this in the other thread, and I think it applies here as well, since people are debating about it.

I have one thing to add to these crazy arguments of "They Can't Love 'cuz They're Evil", and funny enough, it's on this very website.

Emotional Responses, by Rich Burlew (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html)


It is one thing to say an evil person can still love. But Sabine is not a person. She is a fiend. She is a spirit of pure malevolence made into flesh only by presence on the material plane. She is a personification of hate, despair, pain, misery and death - who uses lust to trick mortals into succumbing to the pleasures of the flesh at the expense of love. If she ever truly experienced LOVE, it would destroy her.

Wrong, she's a personification of obsessive lust that tries to instill that level of emotion required to create the desperation for people to go out of their way to cause mayhem and stuff up their own lives just to have her.

I'm still not sure how 'Being A Demon' automatically means she can't Love, though. She is an intelligent (And let's be honest here, more intelligent than the average person) being, even if she is a Demon and magically hardwired towards being Evil. She can have whatever emotion she chooses to have.

[Scarlet Knight]

I'm still not sure how 'Being A Demon' automatically means she can't Love, though. She is an intelligent (And let's be honest here, more intelligent than the average person) being, even if she is a Demon and magically hardwired towards being Evil. She can have whatever emotion she chooses to have.

I agree, evil beings can love, they just respond to it differently.

If the IFCC came for Haley's soul, Elan would offer his. If the IFCC came for Sabine, she would offer Nale's saying: "If it makes you feel better my love, I will truly miss you; but I am a demon after all."

[Gnome Alone]

Elan doesn't kiss better. He just does it with more... élan.

[Jay R]

Could somebody maintaining that Nale and Sabine love each other post the link to a cartoon with a single example of one of them sacrificing something personal for the good of the other one? They are clearly very much interested in having sex together, but does anyone know of an example of non-sex-related emotional investment in the other one's well-being?

I don't need another statement on whether evil people can love in general. That's not at issue. The issues are:
Does Nale love Sabine?
Does Sabine love Nale?

Jealousy and desire to control? Yes
Willingness to work together? Yes
Lust? Yes
Willingness to act to keep the lust going? Yes

Act of actual love? I can't think of one.

I'm prepared to be shown I'm wrong, but you can only do it by showing a selfless act of devotion to the other.

Anybody got one?

[rewinn]

Of course Elan is a better kisser than Nale. Sabine wouldn'tve been half as distracted otherwise.
Perhaps Nale makes overly-elaborate romantic plans, whereas Elan demonstrated that he can be wildly spontaneous. Lots of people like that, not just succubi.
In addition, in 794 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html), Sabine calls Nale "nice, safe, reliable" which is basically "not hot, but has a nice personality".

[veti]

I'm still not sure how 'Being A Demon' automatically means she can't Love, though. She is an intelligent (And let's be honest here, more intelligent than the average person) being, even if she is a Demon and magically hardwired towards being Evil. She can have whatever emotion she chooses to have.

Even for people, the idea that you can "choose" your emotions is controversial. But let's not get into that here. Sabine's not a person, she's a demon.

What does that mean?

It means she's made of evil. The sexual things we'd like to do but don't, because we know they'd be selfish, destructive or just plain icky. All the lust and jealousy and envy and frustrated desire of human[1] minds somehow coagulated together, in some psychic space described in D&D as "another plane", and produced a walking, talking personification of those feelings.

In our terms, she's not so much a "person" as a shared hallucination. An externalisation of the darkest desires of our own minds.

Love, as usually understood at least, is not compatible with those emotions. Love is, first and foremost, unselfish, whereas Sabine quite literally doesn't have an unselfish bone in her body.

[1] Yes yes, and other races too.