The New Ubercharger (no pounce needed)

[pilvento]

So i heard you got tired to dip for barbarian, you just want to play your dam lawfull lawfull aligned palladin, but using a mount is not your style...
Its ok, now you can still make tons of dmg using this:

Found this two awesome feats the other day in dragon #340 :smallcool:

Improved combat reflexes:
For any given aoo in mele combar, you can make two aoo. the second at -5penalty just like your second normal attack in each given round.

Greater combat reflexes
For any given aoo in mele combar, you can make three aoo. the second at -5penalty just like your second normal attack in each given round. And the third at -10 penalty like your third normal attack[/

What do you need for the combo:

Combat expertice, imp trip, knockdown, combat reflexes, imp combat reflexes, greater combat reflexes

And of course the dmg comes from
Power attack, leap attack, shock trooper

And get as big as posible for those trips

finally steps are: charge, jump, trip the bastard and place those 3 free AOO using full PA from shock trooper.

Feat intense? yes... but less than TWF :smalltongue:

Is this a good idea? well... the feedback is up to you!

[Seerow]

So basically just pounce at the cost of 3 feats rather than 1 level dip?

I mean it works, but it's not ground breaking, and most uber-charger builds have their feats stretched pretty thin already (especially if you allow FR material).

[Cog]

Being tripped does not normally provoke an attack of opportunity. Are you using some special ability to change that?

[Seerow]

Being tripped does not normally provoke an attack of opportunity. Are you using some special ability to change that?

Good point. I was thinking Improved Trip granted an AoO, but I just double checked, and it's just a bonus attack rather than an AoO.

[Popertop]

you get an AoO when they try to stand up though

[dextercorvia]

you get an AoO when they try to stand up though

So they eat the -2 for attacking from prone, and still wipe the floor with you that round, because they took pounce.

[Sucrose]

So they eat the -2 for attacking from prone, and still wipe the floor with you that round, because they took pounce.

Doesn't actually need pounce, since you come to them. It's a -4 penalty, but with your nonexistent AC, that won't matter much. What you need if you want to use a combo like this is Robilar's Gambit. Saves you two feats, as well (just need RG instead of CE, IT, and Knockdown). Of course, they still get to hit you back, so you're still better off with pounce, but it's a start.

[Darth Stabber]

And the build is still significantly better if you dip barbarian for pounce. I really don't see this as a real ubercharger, this just trying to mix it with tripper, and trying to pursue 2 specialties as a mundane non-ToB'er, no thanks. Now when combined with robilar's gambit, you are getting decent mileage out of those feats, but honestly, you are better off incorperating these feats into extant tripper builds, as opposed to charger. Mundane melee is weird in that class levels are not as important as feats, you can much more easily change the classes around, so long as you select the right feats.

[Zaq]

Yeah, those feats look pretty powerful (though they undoubtedly have some really stupid prereqs), but I don't see how this isn't markedly improved by Pounce. I understand that the idea is that this is independent of Pounce rather than better than Pounce, but since you could pick up Pounce while getting the combo together anyway, bringing Pounce into the discussion seems unnecessary.

This might be fun with Spectral Skirmisher. It's kind of an obscure way of garnering extra AoOs, but if you get some kind of reliable invisibility, it means that your enemy either has to ignore you or provoke, and the prereqs are much easier than Robilar's.

[Darth Stabber]

Dependant on prerequisites I would consider adding that to a kungfu bear build, he would be a constantly whirling mass of claws teeth, and whatever other attacks you want to add through Totemist2.

[ffone]

Pounce gives you more chances to trip with that initial charge...

In other words this build benefits about as much from pounce as other melee chars.

I forget - do the extra multiplier of Leap Attack and/or the penalty-to-AC-instead-of-Attack of Shock Trooper apply to 'extra' attacks such as that from Improved Trip (if a charge attack was used for the trip) and/or any AoOs the target of your charge may provoke on their next turn?

(Ideally the full attack woulda killed them, but if not...)

[NekoJoker]

I would get this build on a Battlefield control Knight build, you know, how the knight can make every square he threatens into difficult terrain? well, just get a rather large weapon to threaten the largest possible area, then pwn them into the ground with several AoO whenenver they try to move. As said before this is rather good for a Trip build, but not for an Ubercharger.

[JaronK]

IIRC with those feats it uses up more AoOs when you take the extra attacks, so you'd need a really high Dex score.

Honestly, I don't see this one working so well.

JaronK

[Darth Stabber]

I've spent a fair bit of time trying to come up with a good mundane non-ToB melee build that doesn't rely on charging or tripping, but inevitably they always end up either crap or a slight spin on trip or charger. So if I want to do something other than those two things in melee I end up with a warblade or a totemist.

[JaronK]

You can do a pretty darn awesome TWF level drainer without ToB, though ToB definitely helps the build. The main elements are a pair of Lifedrinker Enfeebling Kukris on a Necropolitan character with the Eviscerator line of feats from Libris Mortis. Zhentarium Fighter 9/Dishonorable Dread Pirate 5 works well, as does Rogue 1/Zhentarium Fighter 9/Scarlet Corsair 1. Throw in Imperious Command as well, along with of course TWF. Fill in the rest of the build with whatever you like.

So now as a swift action you can make everyone within 30' cower for your charisma mod rounds (and you have Skill Focus Intimidate). When you critically hit, every living opponent nearby is shaken for a minute... and now if you Imperious Command them, they cower for that long. Every hit does two negative levels, while crits also throw in 1d6+2 str damage (even if they're immune to crits), and you crit on a 15-20.

ToB improves this of course, letting you use Aptitude Kukris so you can rock out with Lightning Mace and Roundabout Kick, plus it throws in Blood in the Water. But even without that, it's still a viable melee build that's not charging or tripping based.

JaronK

[Greenish]

I would get this build on a Battlefield control Knight build, you know, how the knight can make every square he threatens into difficult terrain?Only for enemies who start their turn in a square threatened by the knight.


well, just get a rather large weapon to threaten the largest possible areaUsing a larger weapon doesn't increase your reach.

[herrhauptmann]

I think is something that could be worked with. But, I'd say you should probably start from a lockdown build like the Horizon Tripper as your base, rather than an Ubercharger. As stated, those AOOs only come into play if your enemy does something which causes him to provoke an AOO.

Maybe if you put those on the lockdown build with Mageslayer. Charge the wizard with Leap Attack, then on his turn, no matter what he does, he takes an extra 2 or 3 hits.

Prereqs for the improved/greater combat reflexes are actually pretty minimal, bab of 6 or 11, and dex of 13 and 15, as well as Combat Reflexes.

What I'm still hoping to find, is a feat which allows for an increase in your total number of AOOs per round. I know what I'd select as prereqs if I homebrewed it, but not many DM's would be okay with throwing extra feats into the game.

[pilvento]

Using a larger weapon doesn't increase your reach.

Really it doesn`t ?

[Greenish]

Really it doesn`t ?Really. Reach property in a weapon only doubles your normal reach.

See also Rules Compendium, page 151.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Really it doesn`t ?

Unless you ask your DM nicely, no. Reach is based on your size, not the size of your weapon (unless it's a reach weapon).

Not exactly logical, but them's the rules.

[FMArthur]

Unless you ask your DM nicely, no. Reach is based on your size, not the size of your weapon (unless it's a reach weapon).

Not exactly logical, but them's the rules.

Reach weapons are no less based on your size; all they do is double your natural reach.