concentration vs ?

[michaelmichael]

I would like some advice on concentration and skill use. Is there a general consensus on if one can someone maintain concentration on an illusion while making a diplomacy check? What skills and activities would be specifically excluded besides attacks and other spells?
:thog:

[InaVegt]

I would like some advice on concentration and skill use. Is there a general consensus on if one can someone maintain concentration on an illusion while making a diplomacy check? What skills and activities would be specifically excluded besides attacks and other spells?
:thog:

Anything that requires a standard action or longer to perform cannot be done while concentrating.

This includes diplomacy.

[holywhippet]

The concentration required to maintain an illusion is a standard action. Any other kind of standard action would be prohibited. So attacking would be out, but walking wouldn't be since it's a move action.

Diplomacy though? Technically talking a a free action and diplomacy attempts aren't standard actions. I'd say no to them though as they do require you to contentrate to make them happen. Possible exception is if the illusion is part of the diplomacy action like making yourself seem to be a certain someone and acting their character out.

[erikun]

Technically talking a a free action and diplomacy attempts aren't standard actions.
Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a -10 penalty on the check. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm)

[holywhippet]

Yes, but it isn't clear that you are taking an action during the diplomacy check or if it is just telling you how long the check will take. Compare the text description to some of the other skills like escape artist which specifically state that doing them is a standard or full round action.

[InaVegt]

Yes, but it isn't clear that you are taking an action during the diplomacy check or if it is just telling you how long the check will take.

What part of (10 consecutive full-round actions) is not clear?

[holywhippet]

What part of (10 consecutive full-round actions) is not clear?

It says it takes 1 minute and clarifies that that is the same as 10 consecutive full round actions.

[InaVegt]

It says it takes 1 minute and clarifies that that is the same as 10 consecutive full round actions.

Exactly.

Doing something that takes 1 minute is the same as taking 10 consecutive full round actions.

[myancey]

Yeah, diplomacy check would stop a concentration check.

[holywhippet]

Exactly.

Doing something that takes 1 minute is the same as taking 10 consecutive full round actions.

If I sit around and do nothing for one minute, have I just taken 10 consecutive full round actions? No, I've taken no actions

If I walk in a certain direction for 1 minute, have I just taken 10 consecutive full round actions. No, I've taken only move actions.

Given the way the skill description is written, I'm unconvinced that the diplomacy check is either a series of standard or full round actions given the ambiguity of the text which says how long it takes rather than what kind of action it is.

Compare that to the escape artist description:


Action

Making an Escape Artist check to escape from rope bindings, manacles, or other restraints (except a grappler) requires 1 minute of work. Escaping from a net or an animate rope, command plants, control plants, or entangle spell is a full-round action. Escaping from a grapple or pin is a standard action. Squeezing through a tight space takes at least 1 minute, maybe longer, depending on how long the space is.

That text specifically states that certain actions are standard actions and others are full round actions. I'd have expected to see that kind of specificness in the diplomacy description but I don't.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If I sit around and do nothing for one minute, have I just taken 10 consecutive full round actions? No, I've taken no actions
Talking to someone, seeing how they react, and talking some more based on that reaction is very different from just sitting there. Try to sit somewhere for a minute. Now try to do delicate negotiations for a minute.

[Moose Man]

If I sit around and do nothing for one minute, have I just taken 10 consecutive full round actions? No, I've taken no actions Actually, you are taking the reclusive 'Delay' action. :smallbiggrin:

If I walk in a certain direction for 1 minute, have I just taken 10 consecutive full round actions. No, I've taken only move actions. But you are taking a minute to do that.

[snip]

Compare that to the escape artist description:

[snip]

That text specifically states that certain actions are standard actions and others are full round actions. I'd have expected to see that kind of specificness in the diplomacy description but I don't. Diplomacy states that it takes a minute.tencharacters

[erikun]

It says it takes 1 minute and clarifies that that is the same as 10 consecutive full round actions.

If I sit around and do nothing for one minute, have I just taken 10 consecutive full round actions? No, I've taken no actions

If I walk in a certain direction for 1 minute, have I just taken 10 consecutive full round actions. No, I've taken only move actions.
It seems like you contradict yourself here. If you spend 1 minute doing nothing, then you are not taking 10 consecutive full round actions. If you spend 1 minute walking, then you are not taking 10 consecutive full round actions. Clearly, 1 minute is not the same as 10 consecutive full round actions.

On the other hand, Diplomancy specifically says that you spend 10 consecutive full round actions making a Diplomancy check.

[Gardener]

If I sit around and do nothing for one minute, have I just taken 10 consecutive full round actions? No, I've taken no actions

If I walk in a certain direction for 1 minute, have I just taken 10 consecutive full round actions. No, I've taken only move actions.

Given the way the skill description is written, I'm unconvinced that the diplomacy check is either a series of standard or full round actions given the ambiguity of the text which says how long it takes rather than what kind of action it is.

Compare that to the escape artist description:



That text specifically states that certain actions are standard actions and others are full round actions. I'd have expected to see that kind of specificness in the diplomacy description but I don't.
The requirement is a little more than "must talk to someone for 1 minute". If the clarification was (10 full rounds), you might have a case. But it isn't. You must take 10 consecutive full-round actions to make a diplomacy check, and a full-round action precludes taking a standard action to concentrate.

Anyway, you're going to be really, really distracted if you're taking standard actions just to concentrate.

[Vulaas]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe you CAN do that, but only when you have the benefit of Sonorous Hum or a similar effect.

[myancey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe you CAN do that, but only when you have the benefit of Sonorous Hum or a similar effect.

I'm not sure on this, but you are correct in saying there is a way.

You have to take a skill trick, I believe. Let's you do a concentration check as a swift action for 1 round..so you'd have to go with the rushed diplomacy check.

[holywhippet]

I'm not saying for certain that you can or can't make a diplomacy check while maintaining concentration. To me is seems pretty dubious, unless you've found somewhere that considers diplomacy to be holding a staring contest or a minute of patty cake.

I'm just saying the description of the skill doesn't seem quite specific enough as it doesn't spell it out like other actions/skills do.

[myancey]

I'm not saying for certain that you can or can't make a diplomacy check while maintaining concentration. To me is seems pretty dubious, unless you've found somewhere that considers diplomacy to be holding a staring contest or a minute of patty cake.

I'm just saying the description of the skill doesn't seem quite specific enough as it doesn't spell it out like other actions/skills do.

It's specific in saying it requires 10 full round actions. Or 1 for a rushed diplomacy check. The action can turn a hostile character into a helpful one. That's going to take more than a quick glance and some mumbled words while trying to control your spell.

[michaelmichael]

The context of the question comes from an attempt to use an image spell to entertain people at a dinner party. It was ruled that you couldn't do it, because entertaining was trying to alter attitudes, which was a diplomacy check. So, can you make a diplomacy check while walking along a beach?
:thog:

[holywhippet]

The context of the question comes from an attempt to use an image spell to entertain people at a dinner party. It was ruled that you couldn't do it, because entertaining was trying to alter attitudes, which was a diplomacy check. So, can you make a diplomacy check while walking along a beach?
:thog:

That's just dumb. It's like saying you can't make an illusion of a dragon swooping down on your enemy because that's making them believe something that isn't true which is a bluff check.

It would only be a diplomacy check if you were trying to smooth talk the audience which keeping the illusion going.

[LordBlades]

By RAW yes, it looks like you can't concentrate on any spell or such while using Diplomacy due to 10 full-round action specification.

It looks rather stupid from a logical standpoint though IMHO: you can't convince somebody of something while walking alongside them for 10 years but you can if they stop for a minute. Hell, by RAW you can't even walk through the room while giving a speech.

[holywhippet]

Now that I think of it: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm

Pay attention to the last line:


In addition to using the Perform skill, you can entertain people with sleight of hand, tumbling, tightrope walking, and spells (especially illusions).

Show this to your DM then smack them around the head with the PHB.

[erikun]

It was ruled that you couldn't do it, because entertaining was trying to alter attitudes, which was a diplomacy check.
Entertaining someone would be better described as a Perform checkp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm), which doesn't restrict you to full-round actions.

The fact that their attitudes change due to being entertained does not make it a diplomancy check. In fact, you have no guarantee that they'll even like the song! Heck, stabbing them in the face will make them pretty hostile towards you, but that doesn't mean it takes 10 rounds to do so. :smalltongue:


you can't convince somebody of something while walking alongside them for 10 years but you can if they stop for a minute. Hell, by RAW you can't even walk through the room while giving a speech.
Talking to someone or convincing someone of something is not the same as purposefully trying to change their attitude. If you are making diplomancy checks to get someone who has trusted you for 10 years to trust you, there is something quite wrong with the situation.

Giving a speech is Perform: Oratory, not Diplomancy. :smalltongue:

Yes, I realize there is a lot of exceptionally silly things in 3.5e, but I don't think we need to intentionally make additional ones.

[LordBlades]

Talking to someone or convincing someone of something is not the same as purposefully trying to change their attitude. If you are making diplomancy checks to get someone who has trusted you for 10 years to trust you, there is something quite wrong with the situation.


10 years was an exaggerated example obviously :smalltongue:

Consider the following example: an ambassador visits a foreign king. The king invites him to a walk through palace garden so they can talk in private. By RAW the ambassador can't get anything in regard to improving the king's attitude toward him and his cause unless the king stops walking for at least 1 minute and listens.

That you can get more results in this field by 1 minute of standing still and talking than you can get by any arbitrary amount of talking while walking is a bit silly IMHO. Unless you have Travel Devotion that is :smalltongue:

[Cog]

That you can get more results in this field by 1 minute of standing still and talking than you can get by any arbitrary amount of talking while walking is a bit silly IMHO. Unless you have Travel Devotion that is :smalltongue:
I think you just discovered the secret behind The West Wing.

[myancey]

I think you just discovered the secret behind The West Wing.

You, sir, win the argument. That was funny.

[Bob the DM]

To me, that seems like the point of a concentration check. Where due to the other action you have to roll the concentration check. I'd set the dc at spell level plus X.
If you're trying to hold delicate negotiations in an illusion that might be 15 or 20 plus spell level depending on the level of difficulty in the negotiations. While maintaining an illusion while entertaining at a dinner party might only be 10 or 15 + spell level. The fact that the diplomacy check takes 10 rounds/1 minute would mean you'd have to take 10 checks and the DC might even change each round. That's how I would rule it, as negotiating in an illusionary room seems cool and like something I'd like my players or pc's to try.