Undead control questions

[Darth Stabber]

So in my usual biweekly game I ran into sn odd scenario, that I didn't know how to adjudicate by RAW, and just made up a temp solution. The PC dread necromancer7 (8 at the end of the session) brought her 2 wights, an owlbear skeleton, her skeletal wolf mount, and her human zombie packmule (all controlled via rebuke undead) into a dungeon. During a goblin ambush the goblin wizard hits one of the wights with command undead. Knowing that the DN cares deeply for her undead (think tsukiko of OotS) the psion uses some power to make the wight dissappear for a few rounds, while they handled the goblins. The DN's owlbear skelly grabs the wizard while the remaining wight starts draining it, and everyones else pounds the goblins into so much red and green goo. When the wight pops back into existance, the goblin was not yet animated as a wight, but quite dead. I ruled that with the goblin dead, control over the wight reverted back to her, but is this correct?

Additional questions:
If you gain control of a wight via rebuke or command undead, do you gain all of it's child wights?
If a creature has an exoskeleton(like insects) instead of an endoskeleton (like vertebrates), how does the whole reanimation as skeleton work (or do they just become zombies)?
If I use a couple OA creatures, what should I convert DR/jade to?

[The Mister Guy]

So in my usual biweekly game I ran into sn odd scenario, that I didn't know how to adjudicate by RAW, and just made up a temp solution. The PC dread necromancer7 (8 at the end of the session) brought her 2 wights, an owlbear skeleton, her skeletal wolf mount, and her human zombie packmule (all controlled via rebuke undead) into a dungeon. During a goblin ambush the goblin wizard hits one of the wights with command undead. Knowing that the DN cares deeply for her undead (think tsukiko of OotS) the psion uses some power to make the wight dissappear for a few rounds, while they handled the goblins. The DN's owlbear skelly grabs the wizard while the remaining wight starts draining it, and everyones else pounds the goblins into so much red and green goo. When the wight pops back into existance, the goblin was not yet animated as a wight, but quite dead. I ruled that with the goblin dead, control over the wight reverted back to her, but is this correct?

Additional questions:
If you gain control of a wight via rebuke or command undead, do you gain all of it's child wights?
If a creature has an exoskeleton(like insects) instead of an endoskeleton (like vertebrates), how does the whole reanimation as skeleton work (or do they just become zombies)?
If I use a couple OA creatures, what should I convert DR/jade to?

1. I dont think so. I belive the DN would have to rebuke it again..
2. No.
3. Well the thing with skeletons it that you can create them from a corpse, the flesh just falls off. So i would assume that... actually no. Insects dont really have a skeleton per se, so I'd go with zombie.
4. DR/jade? Adamantine maybe? Whats the context?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So in my usual biweekly game I ran into sn odd scenario, that I didn't know how to adjudicate by RAW, and just made up a temp solution. The PC dread necromancer7 (8 at the end of the session) brought her 2 wights, an owlbear skeleton, her skeletal wolf mount, and her human zombie packmule (all controlled via rebuke undead) into a dungeon. During a goblin ambush the goblin wizard hits one of the wights with command undead. Knowing that the DN cares deeply for her undead (think tsukiko of OotS) the psion uses some power to make the wight dissappear for a few rounds, while they handled the goblins. The DN's owlbear skelly grabs the wizard while the remaining wight starts draining it, and everyones else pounds the goblins into so much red and green goo. When the wight pops back into existance, the goblin was not yet animated as a wight, but quite dead. I ruled that with the goblin dead, control over the wight reverted back to her, but is this correct?Undead Control overlaps, the most current one still active is in effect. When the goblin casted Command Undead, it was the most current one, and thus in effect. When it lapsed, upon the death of the caster, the Command Undead effect from Rebuke/command became the most current, and thus the active one.

So yes, you ruled correctly in that control reverted to the DN.


Additional questions:
If you gain control of a wight via rebuke or command undead, do you gain all of it's child wights?Yes and no. You can command the wight to order its child wights around, however you do not have instantaneous control over the child wights. There's a command lag involved.

If a creature has an exoskeleton(like insects) instead of an endoskeleton (like vertebrates), how does the whole reanimation as skeleton work (or do they just become zombies)? An empty shell, by any other name, can still have the same stats as a skeleton.

If I use a couple OA creatures, what should I convert DR/jade to?Your choice of: DR/Magic, DR/Good, or DR/(some obscure metal). Or just leave it as DR/Jade and either make the PC's find some jade to make jade weapons, or deal with the DR in other ways (blowing through it, ignoring it with several of their options).

[supermonkeyjoe]

1. You wouldn't gain direct command of the wights but you would gain command of them by proxy, some DMs may count them against your total HD of undead controlled to prevent undead army cheese.

2. I see no reason why an exoskeletal creature couldn't exist, It would appear to be an animate shell with nothing inside it.

[Urpriest]

IIRC, DR/Jade wasn't in OA to replace some inappropriate type of DR from normal D&D (unlike honor rules which replace alignment). It seems more like an early version of 3.5's material-based DR. Because of that, I'd keep it as DR/Jade.

[Keld Denar]

Undead Control overlaps, the most current one still active is in effect. When the goblin casted Command Undead, it was the most current one, and thus in effect. When it lapsed, upon the death of the caster, the Command Undead effect from Rebuke/command became the most current, and thus the active one.

Not quite. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects):

Multiple Mental Control Effects
Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

The control aspect of Rebuke Undead is a magical ability (SU) that allows mental control. The Command Undead spell also allows for mental control. The two possessors of the effects would roll off for contol of the wight, assuming they gave it conflicting orders (kill him, no kill her). Luckily, DN's are Cha based, which gives them an advantage over Wizards in this regard.

One the spell does run out, though, control would revert 100% back to the DN.

BTW, the power the psion used was Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm). Best power EVER!

[Darth Stabber]

Your choice of: DR/Magic, DR/Good, or DR/(some obscure metal). Or just leave it as DR/Jade and either make the PC's find some jade to make jade weapons, or deal with the DR in other ways (blowing through it, ignoring it with several of their options).

The context of the jade DR: I am replacing Yugoloths (don't care for them) with Oni from OA as the primary NE outsiders. They generally have DR/Good or Jade, the current party is... shal we say unlikely to be able to good align their weapons (2CE and 1TN), so if they are facing a Kiri no Oni (which has DR 25 CR 10) and they are lvl7, HP damage isn't goin to cut it, went down like a chump to 2 augmented ego whips (only 8 CHA, and a bad will save).


2. I see no reason why an exoskeletal creature couldn't exist, It would appear to be an animate shell with nothing inside it.

Okay so the necromancer now has huge skeletal demonic spider like thing with 8 claw attacks and a bite, not to mention DR25/??? or good.


1. You wouldn't gain direct command of the wights but you would gain command of them by proxy, some DMs may count them against your total HD of undead controlled to prevent undead army cheese.

I knew that the control wasn't direct, but I just wondered if that is a way to steal chains. I am the GM, and I have warned the necromancer in question that I will allow chains, but she had better be prepared to reap the whirlwind if a parent wight dies. She only has 3 wights, and only 1 is a child. I am not even that worried about the wights, it's the other undead she has now. Namely the skeletal Kiri no Oni, and the zombie adult white dragon.

[Gullintanni]

Not quite. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects):


The control aspect of Rebuke Undead is a magical ability (SU) that allows mental control. The Command Undead spell also allows for mental control. The two possessors of the effects would roll off for contol of the wight, assuming they gave it conflicting orders (kill him, no kill her). Luckily, DN's are Cha based, which gives them an advantage over Wizards in this regard.

One the spell does run out, though, control would revert 100% back to the DN.

BTW, the power the psion used was Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm). Best power EVER!

In the given scenario, since the goblin is dead and thus incapable of issuing orders, then wouldn't the DN's rebuking be undisputed, given that the goblin is no longer capable of exercising the mental control it has over the wight? The spell would technically still be in effect, it would just be inert, given that there was no input coming from the controllers side.

[Urpriest]

The context of the jade DR: I am replacing Yugoloths (don't care for them) with Oni from OA as the primary NE outsiders. They generally have DR/Good or Jade, the current party is... shal we say unlikely to be able to good align their weapons (2CE and 1TN), so if they are facing a Kiri no Oni (which has DR 25 CR 10) and they are lvl7, HP damage isn't goin to cut it, went down like a chump to 2 augmented ego whips (only 8 CHA, and a bad will save).


It probably isn't DR 25. 3.5 changed all DRs that high to harder to break but lower DRs. You should check the 3.5 update of OA if you haven't already.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Okay so the necromancer now has huge skeletal demonic spider like thing with 8 claw attacks and a bite, not to mention DR25/??? or good.



No I think you need to re-read the skeleton template unless you are thinking of a very specific example.


A creature with hands gains one claw attack per hand;
I don't know if Kiri no Oni have hands at the end of their spider legs but if they do then yes, 8 claw attacks also:


Special Qualities

A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A skeleton gains the following special qualities.

Damage Reduction (Ex)

A skeleton has damage deduction 5/bludgeoning. Skeletons lack flesh or internal organs.

So DR5/bludgeoning.

to be honest it's looking no worse than a zombie (X) headed hydra.

[Wizzard]

If a creature has an exoskeleton(like insects) instead of an endoskeleton (like vertebrates), how does the whole reanimation as skeleton work (or do they just become zombies)?

Animate Dead says: "A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones."
The Skeleton template only requires a "corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system" and only mentions bones in flavor text.
So if you want to allow a bug skeleton, I see no reason why you couldn't, but strictly by the rules it's dubious and probably not what the creators intended.

[Keld Denar]

In the given scenario, since the goblin is dead and thus incapable of issuing orders, then wouldn't the DN's rebuking be undisputed, given that the goblin is no longer capable of exercising the mental control it has over the wight? The spell would technically still be in effect, it would just be inert, given that there was no input coming from the controllers side.

Once you give it orders, it tries to carry out those orders until you give it other orders. When the Wizard casts Control Undead, he gives it an order. That order stays in effect until he tells it to do something else, or until the spell ends. Every time the DN gives an order to his controlled undead, it would check against that order to see if its conflicting, and if it is, it would require a Cha check. The rules don't say you stop doing that even after you are dead. The imprint of the force of the suggestion might still be there in the spell. Spells don't end after their controller is dead. I had a player lose a character once to an Evard's Black Tentacles once, even though the rest of the party killed the offending caster, the character couldn't get out of the tentacles before the duration expired and ended up dying from the damage. Sure, the dead Wizard can't issue any NEW orders to the Wight, but that doesn't change any existing orders given, or their strength, which is dependant on the caster's Cha, even if the caster is no longer alive.

[Urpriest]

Where the hell are you getting DR 25? Kiri No Oni are Bebiliths with the Shadowlands type, right? Bebiliths have DR 10/good, so Kiri No Oni should have DR 10/good or jade.

[opticalshadow]

ive always rules that until the spell ends, its in effect, so his command would continue to go until its duration ends, or the DN deals with it (which shouldnt be hard eitehr)

been said plenty but indirectly yes you gain control, though the proxxy system has its downfalls (the largest of lest is the sudden change in power when a death occurs, especially when a DN dies, and the undead were simply compelled to follow, and not animated to do so.)

the spells that concern skeletons all mostly use the term skeletal system as its core meaning, and by definition an exoskeleton is a skeletal system. ive always allowed DN's to have insects skeletons and ive always been allowed, the DM's argument is weak on this end as its a direct deffinition.

that said, be wary about what he can get ahold of, there is a llot of cheese you can accomplish with a hollowed out creature under your control. with feats he can have a sub terranian bus, or get beetle full of flammable liquid or explosives. needless to say, it can become a nightmare, though it doesnt seem like your having cheese problems.

[Darth Stabber]

Okay I was wrong. The DR is 25/+2(jade), how does that convert?


the spells that concern skeletons all mostly use the term skeletal system as its core meaning, and by definition an exoskeleton is a skeletal system. ive always allowed DN's to have insects skeletons and ive always been allowed, the DM's argument is weak on this end as its a direct deffinition.

that said, be wary about what he can get ahold of, there is a llot of cheese you can accomplish with a hollowed out creature under your control. with feats he can have a sub terranian bus, or get beetle full of flammable liquid or explosives. needless to say, it can become a nightmare, though it doesnt seem like your having cheese problems.

Cheese has been slapped down by gentleman's (and lady's) agreement. The DN is the one who has cheesey ideas, and my response is never no, but a withdrawl of doing templating for her future minions (she's a fairly new player, and she likes running a ton of minions, she doesn't want to math them out). They are making a SUV (spider utility, but I don't really care, they already have zombie dragon airlines (via command undead), so there's no additional cheese there. And the Necro in question is entirely too caring about her undead minions, and would never even think to make suicide bomber undead. If the players want to hollow things out and make cool toys that's fine so long as they are just cool, and not balance breaking. The Necro in question already made a mini tank out of her skeletal wolf, she is a tibbit and in cat form can fit in the ribcage of the wolf, add some modified barding (mount armor), and she can fit inside easily, and since skeletons are languageless it was decided (by the group at large) that mindless creatures are controlled entirely mentally (ie non-verbally), allowing her to control the wolf while peeking out of a hole in the armored cat compartment. They ran into a nest mate of the first Oni-spider, and wrecked it the same way, but the sword sage called dibs on this corpse, and is applying his taxidermy skills to make weapons and armor from it's claws & shell. The psion is trying convince me to convert arcane thesis into psionic thesis, so he can apply it to Ego whip. They're going to be fighting constructs now, because the DN just takes over any undead they encounter, and anything with out a huge charisma gets Egowhipped into oblivion (and while unconscious the DN either Negative energy touches it to death, or the wights convert it, or the swordsage mountain hammers it).

[Urpriest]

Okay I was wrong. The DR is 25/+2(jade), how does that convert?

There are formulas, but they're guidelines. However, since (again IIRC), a Kiri No Oni is just a Shadowlands Bebilith, I have no idea where you're getting this 25 number. I mean, 3.0 would have had it as 30/+3 or jade (which is ridiculous, but there you go), and 3.5 has it as 10/good or jade. So where are you getting your Kiri No Oni stats?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay I was wrong. The DR is 25/+2(jade), how does that convert?

A direct translation would be DR 25/Magic AND Jade

But, as others have said, the 3.5 version of the monster has DR much less annoying. It's up to you which version you use.

[Darth Stabber]

There are formulas, but they're guidelines. However, since (again IIRC), a Kiri No Oni is just a Shadowlands Bebilith, I have no idea where you're getting this 25 number. I mean, 3.0 would have had it as 30/+3 or jade (which is ridiculous, but there you go), and 3.5 has it as 10/good or jade. So where are you getting your Kiri No Oni stats?

I am getting my stats from whatever the OA creature book is called, and 25/+2 (jade) is a direct quote from that book. I might have the wrong name though, if that is the case it is the entry right after kenku.

[Urpriest]

I am getting my stats from whatever the OA creature book is called, and 25/+2 (jade) is a direct quote from that book. I might have the wrong name though, if that is the case it is the entry right after kenku.

Hmm...kenku are from a 3.5 non-OA book, and tengu (the things which are another spelling of kenku) come right before giant toads...also, IIRC, OA didn't have any companion books...which brings me to a theory:

You are using non-WotC Rokugan material!

Ok, with that out of the way, the general guidelines for DR conversion:

Look at the CR. If it's CR 5 or lower, it's DR 5. If it's over CR 12, DR 15. Otherwise, DR 10.

Now look at thematics. You've got an evil outsider, specifically an Oni. So it should be vulnerable to good and/or jade weapons.

Then we resolve that and/or. The rule of thumb is that you use "or" for CR 3 or lower, "and" for CR 16 or higher.

These guidelines are from page 8 of the D&D 3.5 update booklet.

[opticalshadow]

Okay I was wrong. The DR is 25/+2(jade), how does that convert?



Cheese has been slapped down by gentleman's (and lady's) agreement. The DN is the one who has cheesey ideas, and my response is never no, but a withdrawl of doing templating for her future minions (she's a fairly new player, and she likes running a ton of minions, she doesn't want to math them out). They are making a SUV (spider utility, but I don't really care, they already have zombie dragon airlines (via command undead), so there's no additional cheese there. And the Necro in question is entirely too caring about her undead minions, and would never even think to make suicide bomber undead. If the players want to hollow things out and make cool toys that's fine so long as they are just cool, and not balance breaking. The Necro in question already made a mini tank out of her skeletal wolf, she is a tibbit and in cat form can fit in the ribcage of the wolf, add some modified barding (mount armor), and she can fit inside easily, and since skeletons are languageless it was decided (by the group at large) that mindless creatures are controlled entirely mentally (ie non-verbally), allowing her to control the wolf while peeking out of a hole in the armored cat compartment. They ran into a nest mate of the first Oni-spider, and wrecked it the same way, but the sword sage called dibs on this corpse, and is applying his taxidermy skills to make weapons and armor from it's claws & shell. The psion is trying convince me to convert arcane thesis into psionic thesis, so he can apply it to Ego whip. They're going to be fighting constructs now, because the DN just takes over any undead they encounter, and anything with out a huge charisma gets Egowhipped into oblivion (and while unconscious the DN either Negative energy touches it to death, or the wights convert it, or the swordsage mountain hammers it).

pretty cool of you to allow those things, i honestly have a hard enough time just getting the class in the game, never mind getting to do anything other then raise a single creature at a time (god i hate dm's) i persoanlly just like to start raiseing things and then build a underground castle with them, and have a lair, which never becomes useful in games (because i can never get dms to let me have fun)

you could try throwing some powerful clerics their way, i had a dm get me good with the bbeg being a cleric, and my undead army being about as useful throwing kittens at a stone wall during a siege.

[big teej]

Jade and obsidian were tied into the idea of the "honor" system.

Jade was the "honoruable" material, while Obsidian the 'dishonoruable' material.

given taht, I would say DR/jade translates into DR/lawful