Ranger optimization

[myancey]

So I posted in an earlier thread my belief that a ranged fighter would destroy a nicely built ranger...always having heard that the 3.5 Ranger was a joke class. After getting my butt handed to me, I looked up the fighter to see it as a tier 5, the ranger being a 4...

So I was wondering if anyone could point me to a ranger optimization handbook, or simply offer me tips as to building one (prestige classes, magic items, feats, etc.). I'd like to see a good one in action as the class archetype is pretty cool.

Thanks.

[PollyOliver]

The biggest problem with the core ranger (IMO) is that it's set up to use combat styles that benefit greatly from bonus damage (manyshot or twf), but doesn't really have any source of such damage. They're also set up to be a backup skillmonkey, but don't have very useful class skills. The swift hunter feat will get you said bonus damage, but will not take you up a tier by any stretch.

If you have spell compendium, though, the spells add some versatility.

There are some useful alternate class features as well. Mystic ranger gets better casting (the feat sword of the arcane order also helps here) and can be part of a nice gishy sort of build. Wild shape ranger is a solid tier 3 for enhanced melee and versatility, and many people take that straight into master of many forms and warshaper.

Edit: If you're interested in house rules at all, another thing I frequently houserule is giving some more class skills and making ranger animal companions progress at druid-3 instead of druid/2, because it seems silly that you could get a better animal companion with a feat than what the ranger gets as one of their class features. I've actually gone full AC progression before, and it was not overpowered, but very helpful for the ranger player.

[CapnVan]

I'd like to see a good one in action as the class archetype is pretty cool.

I can't help but note that your sig includes, well, not an archetype, per se, but definitely a well known ranger.
:belkar:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The biggest problem with the core ranger (IMO) is that it's set up to use combat styles that benefit greatly from bonus damage (manyshot or twf), but doesn't really have any source of such damage. They're also set up to be a backup skillmonkey, but don't have very useful class skills. The swift hunter feat will get you said bonus damage, but will not take you up a tier by any stretch.

If you have spell compendium, though, the spells add some versatility.

There are some useful alternate class features as well. Mystic ranger gets better casting (the feat sword of the arcane order also helps here) and can be part of a nice gishy sort of build. Wild shape ranger is a solid tier 3 for enhanced melee and versatility, and many people take that straight into master of many forms and warshaper.

Edit: If you're interested in house rules at all, another thing I frequently houserule is giving some more class skills and making ranger animal companions progress at druid-3 instead of druid/2, because it seems silly that you could get a better animal companion with a feat than what the ranger gets as one of their class features. I've actually gone full AC progression before, and it was not overpowered, but very helpful for the ranger player.You seem to contradict yourself. At first you say they don't have any means of applying bonus damage, then citing sources they get it from...

Ranger is a great class. They get a phenomonal skill set, able to take the 'point man' slot. In fact, they're probably the best class for the role, since with a couple of ACF's they can spot traps like a rogue, but still be able to take a hit, and have a good chance of not taking that hit that came winging at them in the first place.

Some protips:

* You are a full BAB class. That means you hit things. And you're pretty darn good at it. Choose between hitting things in melee and hitting things from a distance.

* If you choose Melee, you can combo with Dervish. Unless you're a Drow, in which case you'll look too much like D****t and you'll get books thrown at you.

* You've got a lot of skills (6+int mod, only behind Rogue in Core, equal with Bard), and you get some really useful ones. Use this to your advantage. Hide, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Listen. You can scout as well as a Rogue can. Survival + Track, you can hunt things down. Survival is also good in general for survival in the wilderness. Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and (Nature). You can identify most non-extraplanar critters you run into, and exploit their weaknesses. This can also be combined with Knowledge Devotion, if you so choose.

* Scout 4 is an amazing splash for you, when combined with Swift Hunter. Really, there's almost no reason to NOT do it. Nets you Trapfinding, so you don't even need a party Rogue anymore, and lots of bonus damage.

* You are the only full BAB class that gets Evasion and Hide in Plain Sight as class features. In fact, you're the ONLY non-prestige class that I am aware of that gets HiPS.

* Cure Light Wounds is on your spell list. Pick up a wand at your earliest opportunity. Not for primary healer role, but to make sure your cleric doesn't die if he gets dropped.

* For that matter, so is Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison. Scrolls are fun, all the cool kids have 'em.

* Greater Magic Fang is the perfect buff to cast on your Animal Companion.

Some sample builds:

Scout4/Ranger16. Pick up the feat Greater Manyshot, and a splitting bow. Have fun with damage output that can approach typical charger builds. With Trapfinding, stealth, detection, emergency healing and status effect negation, and other utility.

Ranger10(wildshape variant)/MoMF10. There's a reason Druid is a Tier 1 class. Now you emulate one of their strongest abilities. No, you aren't Tier 1, because you don't have everything a Druid does, but you're still going to eat the face off of anything in your way.

Scout4/Ranger6/Dervish10. It slices, it dices, it makes juliann fries! It's also surprisingly mobile when combined with a dip in Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion, or with a Grandmaster's Dummy (UMD'd). Or, if you want Incarnum, a couple of feats into Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx claws) and Open Chakra (Hand).

[PollyOliver]

You seem to contradict yourself. At first you say they don't have any means of applying bonus damage, then citing sources they get it from...


I said that's a big problem with the core ranger. If you consider the whole SRD to be "core" (which many groups I've encountered in real life do not), I guess that brings in wild shape (but without warshaper or momf), but not swift hunter or mystic ranger or sword of the arcane order or the spell compendium spells. So I don't see how that's a contradiction.

For skills, you do have lots of skill points, but unfortunately you don't have the class skills to be much of a skill monkey. You can track and scout, but you can't handle traps, which I've always found odd from a common sense perspective because you'd think avoiding snares and pits and any sort of trap in a natural environment would be a very ranger-y thing. But I guess they didn't want to take away from rogue. Swift hunter gets you trapfinding, but if you're staying mostly in ranger to take advantage of the full BAB, you're going to have to spend a lot of cross-class ranks. And despite having 6+INT per level, you're not going to have a lot of skill points to spare because you already need dex and con and wis and probably strength, so you've got tough choices to make about cross-classing. The knowledges are nice, though; I always like it when classes get knowledges.

For a base class with HiPS, scouts get it too actually, and faster (but lack full BAB).

Those are some good builds (and dervish has always been one of my favorite Prcs). The other thing to consider for wild shape ranger is maybe going ranger 5/master of many forms 10/warshaper 5 in whatever order, because warshaper also has some very nice goodies that can make up for the lost BAB.

Maybe someone with more skill at gishes than me could provide a sample build for that?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For skills, you do have lots of skill points, but unfortunately you don't have the class skills to be much of a skill monkey. You can track and scout, but you can't handle traps, which I've always found odd from a common sense perspective because you'd think avoiding snares and pits and any sort of trap in a natural environment would be a very ranger-y thing. But I guess they didn't want to take away from rogue. You get Search as a class skill. The only thing you can't find are magical traps (not necessarily a ranger thing) and those with a DC greater than 25 (generally, magical traps).

Swift hunter gets you trapfinding, but if you're staying mostly in ranger to take advantage of the full BAB, you're going to have to spend a lot of cross-class ranks. Again, Rangers get Search, which is really all that is needed to find traps. Disable Device is probably one of the most worthless skills in existance, with all the various ways and means of dealing with them.
And despite having 6+INT per level, you're not going to have a lot of skill points to spare because you already need dex and con and wis and probably strength, so you've got tough choices to make about cross-classing. The knowledges are nice, though; I always like it when classes get knowledges. Granted, you're not going to have a very high Int score with so many other stats on your list, but you've still got 6+Int Mod, which is nothing to sneeze at.


Those are some good builds (and dervish has always been one of my favorite Prcs). The other thing to consider for wild shape ranger is maybe going ranger 5/master of many forms 10/warshaper 5 in whatever order, because warshaper also has some very nice goodies that can make up for the lost BAB.

Maybe someone with more skill at gishes than me could provide a sample build for that?

Warshaper has, at most, 3 levels. The fifth level holds absolutely nothing for the Ranger/MoMF build. Fast Healing is nice, but generally redundant if you have any kind of a healer in the party, so that level is generally obsolete as well. The 3rd level is for more reach, which is always a good thing.

Nature's Warrior is always good for a 1 level dip. Claws of the Grizzly is always fun for +3 untyped bonus to damage with claws (generally what you are going to be using to attack with), or Nature's Weapon, which is a +1 Enhancement Bonus on all natural attacks (plus count as being Magic), which means you don't need to worry about Greater Magic Fang for yourself. There are other options, but these are the two best ones, in my opinion.

So, Ranger5/MoMF10/Warshaper3/Nature's Warrior2.

[Optimator]

To quote Unearthed Arcana:

"Gain: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian)."

Wildshape variant Rangers are great, don't get me wrong, but you're not "emulating one of the druid's strongest abilities" nor are you particularly enhanced in melee.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To quote Unearthed Arcana:

"Gain: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian)."

Wildshape variant Rangers are great, don't get me wrong, but you're not "emulating one of the druid's strongest abilities" nor are you particularly enhanced in melee.

You are when you combine it with MoMF, which is the point I was referencing. MoMF gives you bigger/smaller sizes, and a whole slew of things other than animals you can shift into. In fact, Ranger/MOMF is every bit as strong as Druid/MOMF, since it doesn't advance casting anyways, and a Ranger has a higher BAB.

[Dusk Eclipse]

This (http://web.archive.org/web/20080221205121/forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=941812) is one of my favourite builds ever, and it showcases extremely nice how versatile and useful a Ranger can be.

I think that aside from full casters, Ranger is the class that got the most love out of splats, with TONS of useful ACF, variants or options (the bard did too; but I believe it is quite versatile even in core)

[Seerow]

You are when you combine it with MoMF, which is the point I was referencing. MoMF gives you bigger/smaller sizes, and a whole slew of things other than animals you can shift into. In fact, Ranger/MOMF is every bit as strong as Druid/MOMF, since it doesn't advance casting anyways, and a Ranger has a higher BAB.

Hrm I need to recheck MoMF.... but can it turn into an Arrow Demon? Cause if so we may have our new way for the Ranger to win "Who's the better archer" debate.

[Optimator]

Ah, point taken. I tend to think of any character going heavily into MoMF as a MoMF build rather than a Ranger or Druid build though. I've always wanted to play a Wildshape Ranger/MoMF. Sounds fun as **** but the paperwork required puts me off a bit.

[MeeposFire]

Hrm I need to recheck MoMF.... but can it turn into an Arrow Demon? Cause if so we may have our new way for the Ranger to win "Who's the better archer" debate.

No it lacks outsider shape. Perhaps in epic it could if there still is an outsider wild shape feat but stock MOMF lacks outsider.

EDIT: I agree about the awesoemness of the wild shape ranger MoMF combo but hating the paperwork. Not just do you have to deal with the forms but also the annoying item issues especially if some are wild clasped but this item isn't. Bleh. Makes me want to do VoP even if it is weaker just to avoid the headache.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hrm I need to recheck MoMF.... but can it turn into an Arrow Demon? Cause if so we may have our new way for the Ranger to win "Who's the better archer" debate.

Unfortunately not. Outsider is not on the list, although Elemental is. However, Dragon is on that list, so is Aberration, and if you pick up Assume Supernatural Ability, you might be able to manage it that way. It would take a LOT of rules-exploitation, though. Wasn't there an Aberration which had Polymorph as a supernatural ability?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Unfortunately not. Outsider is not on the list, although Elemental is. However, Dragon is on that list, so is Aberration, and if you pick up Assume Supernatural Ability, you might be able to manage it that way. It would take a LOT of rules-exploitation, though. Wasn't there an Aberration which had Polymorph as a supernatural ability?

In the SRD/core there is the Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) which has Alternate form as (Su) up to large forms; but an aberration with actual polymorph I can't remember

Edit: An there is the Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm); but that is an epic monster

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In the SRD/core there is the Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) which has Alternate form as (Su) up to large forms; but an aberration with actual polymorph I can't remember

Alternate Form should do the trick.

So, Wild Shape into a Phasm, then use the Alternate Form to turn into an Arrow Demon.

Done.

[PollyOliver]

Ah, point taken. I tend to think of any character going heavily into MoMF as a MoMF build rather than a Ranger or Druid build though. I've always wanted to play a Wildshape Ranger/MoMF. Sounds fun as **** but the paperwork required puts me off a bit.

I'm actually playing one (gestalted with swordsage) in a pbp game at the moment. So far I've been running around chomping things as a tiger and then tossing them overboard with setting sun throws, and using Fax's ocean soul discipline for some other shenanigans (naval campaign). So far at level 7. There is quite a bit of paperwork though. I have a separate mythweavers sheet for each alternate form he uses with any frequency, to keep things moving quickly.

[Essence_of_War]

A 1 level cleric dip on any of Shneeky's builds is fantastic.

In particular, you're interested in the travel/animal devotion feats.

There is a good handbook for swift hunters here:
BG Swift Hunter Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0)

[Akal Saris]

My understanding is that a ranger is 1 tier ahead of the fighter because of the 6 skills/level and limited casting, which means it can fill 3-4 roles (damage dealer, scout, tracker, partial knowledges, some healing & divinations), rather than 1 role. Ranger isn't necessarily a stronger combatant than a fighter, though they certainly can be built to be so.

One of the few characters I play is actually a Ranger 11/Scout 3 with Swift Hunter. He has Favored Enemy (Human, Constructs, and Arcanists [Complete Mage option]), which has worked quite well as a source of bonus damage, since nearly every fight in the campaign has been against one of those three types, and I've gotten the Improved Favored Enemy feat. He actually puts out very high damage with swift hunter and travel devotion active, but since this is a level 14 game, he is still obsolete in combat due to the presence of the party's druid, cleric, and wizard :P At least I out-damage the rogue/thief-acrobat...

[Greenish]

* If you choose Melee, you can combo with Dervish.Dervish schmervish. Go Revenant Blade!


In fact, you're the ONLY non-prestige class that I am aware of that gets HiPS.Wilderness Rogue, scout, illusionist wizard and shadow cloak knight paladin also get it, all earlier than ranger.

[Amphetryon]

I personally like using a TWF Ranger in conjunction with Assassin's Stance (and its prerequisite) and Natural Bond, along with feats that improve Flanking benefits to Hit and Damage. Gives me a useful 1-2 punch and the Flanking bonuses can be applied without expressly needing the Companion.