Unarmed and Natural Attacks

[raxies94]

Okay, so some of you may have seen the thread I posted recently about my barbarian/bear warrior. I like the idea, but I'm having a little trouble understanding how unarmed attacks and natural attacks will work in bear form.

From what I can see, when in bear form and making a full attack, unarmed attacks go first as part of the normal BAB attack progression. Then my natural attacks go at a -5 penalty.

Am I missing anything? If I'm reading this right, then my character will basically be a bear that punches people and then claws and bites them. Which is awesome.

[MeeposFire]

You have that right. Let us say you have a BAB of +16 and are a bear.

You would punch at +16/+11/+6/+1 and then you would bite and claws at +11/+11/+11.

[Keld Denar]

Yes. You have it right. For more information on the interaction between natural and manufactured weapons, read my mini-guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0).

Basically, you make all of your iterative attacks (attacks with manufactured weapons or weapons that use the rules for manufactured weapons such as Unarmed Strikes), and then you make all of your natural attacks that aren't interfered with by your iterative attacks. Example, if you are holding a sword in one hand, you can't claw with that hand, but you could still claw with the other hand.

The great thing about the UAS, is that it doesn't occupy any specific limb and thus doesn't interfere with any given natural attack. If you want to claw someone, you simply just kick them, headbutt them, knee them, or elbow them.

[raxies94]

Okay. Sweet. But if I used my fist to hit things, I then couldn't use that same fist to claw things?

[Keld Denar]

Technically, there really isn't anything that says you can't punch and claw with the same hand. Then again, its probably just easier to say "I headbutt the goblin, then slash him with my claws and bite him". UASs are made with your whole body as a weapon. Any striking surface is valid, and that counts for both Monk AND non-Monks, according to the weapon description in the equipment chapter.

[raxies94]

Technically, there really isn't anything that says you can't punch and claw with the same hand. Then again, its probably just easier to say "I headbutt the goblin, then slash him with my claws and bite him". UASs are made with your whole body as a weapon. Any striking surface is valid, and that counts for both Monk AND non-Monks, according to the weapon description in the equipment chapter.

Alright. But is there anything I can do to replicate the effects of enchantment on manufactured weapons to my fists perhaps?

[Keld Denar]

Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm) or the Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a). Depending on how many attacks you have, the former might be cheaper than the latter. AoMF was printed in the DMG, but costs fully 3x more expensive than a normal magic weapon, but benefits all natural weapons you have. The Amulet of Natural Attacks is actually CHEAPER than most magic items, but only apply to one magic weapon. If you want to apply it to multiple natural weapons, you have to expend more money. I think the break even point is somewhere between 3 and 4 natural weapons...UAS + Claw + Claw + Bite would be worth it to buy the Amulet of Mighty Fists, for example.


Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species): The enhancement bonus on this necklace is applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer's natural weapons. In addition, any weapon special quality applied to this necklace also applies to those natural weapons. For instance, a +1 throwing returning necklace of natural weapons would apply its enhancement bonus as well as the throwing and returning special abilities to one or more of the wearer's natural weapons.

Caster Level: 3rd; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Market Price: 600 gp, plus the cost of the enhancement bonuses, times by the number of natural weapons affected. (Thus, a +1 necklace of natural weapons that affects one natural weapon costs 2,600 gp. If the same necklace affects six natural weapons, it costs 15,600 gp.) Weight: --.

[raxies94]

Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm) or the Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a). Depending on how many attacks you have, the former might be cheaper than the latter. AoMF was printed in the DMG, but costs fully 3x more expensive than a normal magic weapon, but benefits all natural weapons you have. The Amulet of Natural Attacks is actually CHEAPER than most magic items, but only apply to one magic weapon. If you want to apply it to multiple natural weapons, you have to expend more money. I think the break even point is somewhere between 3 and 4 natural weapons...UAS + Claw + Claw + Bite would be worth it to buy the Amulet of Mighty Fists, for example.

The amulet will definitely help, but I'm not sure if I can wear it in bear form...

[Keld Denar]

Why not? Only gear that is unwearable or unwieldable melds and becomes inert when you change forms. A necklace is one of the few items that most animals CAN wear. Thus, when you hulk out in bear form, you'll be a bear with a nifty choker. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on whether you have access to the MIC, +Con is also on the neck slot. Using the MIC rules for combining items and ability affinity, you can add +Con to your neck simply by paying for the difference in the upgrade. Thus, a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists of +2 Con would cost 10,000g. 6000g for the AoMF and +4000g for the Amulet of +2 Con tacked on.

[Moriato]

Why not? Only gear that is unwearable or unwieldable melds and becomes inert when you change forms.

That's true of the Alternate Form special ability, but the Wild Shape description specifically says ANY gear worn or carried melds into the new form, without allowing for exceptions.

Scratch that, my mind automatically goes to wild shape when talking about things like this, but I see that the bear warrior's ability is based on polymorph instead.

[Deathslayer7]

Why not? Only gear that is unwearable or unwieldable melds and becomes inert when you change forms. A necklace is one of the few items that most animals CAN wear. Thus, when you hulk out in bear form, you'll be a bear with a nifty choker. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on whether you have access to the MIC, +Con is also on the neck slot. Using the MIC rules for combining items and ability affinity, you can add +Con to your neck simply by paying for the difference in the upgrade. Thus, a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists of +2 Con would cost 10,000g. 6000g for the AoMF and +4000g for the Amulet of +2 Con tacked on.

not correct. When combining two different properties, you have to multiply one of them by 1.5 since they are effectively two different abilities. So you would have 6000g for the AoMF and 4000g*1.5 (or 6000g) for the +2 con on the same amulet costing a total of 12,000 gp.

[Cogitor]

It is correct. MIC lets you add +2n Con and such to your magic items for the normal price to encourage people to not simply take the boring items every time.

[Tancred]

not correct. When combining two different properties, you have to multiply one of them by 1.5 since they are effectively two different abilities. So you would have 6000g for the AoMF and 4000g*1.5 (or 6000g) for the +2 con on the same amulet costing a total of 12,000 gp.

See "Adding Common Item Effects to Existing Items", page 233 of the MIC. Keld Denar quoted correct pricing.

[Kaeso]

I've heard in many threads that unarmed attacks and natural attacks stack, but could anybody point out a page in a rulebook or erratta or FAQ that supports this view?

[Keld Denar]

Read the guide I linked. All the conclusions are drawn there.

Premise 1: You can make natural attacks in conjunction with manufactured weapon attacks.

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.
Premise 2: Limbs that are occupied by a manufactured weapon can not be used to make natural attacks.
Anecdotal evidence: Xill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/xill.htm), Marilith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#marilith), Barbazu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#beardedDevilBarbazu), most Giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm). In all stat blocks given, attack routines that include weapons wielded in hands normally used for claw or slam attacks, a proportional number of natural attacks are missing.

Premise 3: Unarmed Strikes can be made with any part of the body.

Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity
Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).

Conclusion: If an UAS can be made with any part of the body, it does not need to be made with the part of the body used to make natural attacks. Since it is not used, it is free to make natural attacks. It can make all of its natural attacks and those attacks do not interfere with the creature's iterative attacks.

EDIT: It isn't so much "stacking", as the seamless merging of two rule sets. It is possible to make both manufactured and natural attacks in a round. Attacking with UASs is the most efficient way to qualify for both without negating either option.

[Godskook]

The amulet will definitely help, but I'm not sure if I can wear it in bear form...

Wilding clasps are great for this


The Amulet of Natural Attacks is actually CHEAPER than most magic items, but only apply to one magic weapon. If you want to apply it to multiple natural weapons, you have to expend more money. I think the break even point is somewhere between 3 and 4 natural weapons...UAS + Claw + Claw + Bite would be worth it to buy the Amulet of Mighty Fists, for example.

The necklace of natural attacks is priced like weaponry, and end up being about ~250 gp more expensive than buying that many weapons(600gp base compared to 300gp + weapon base for other weapons).

Comparing it to the Amulet of Mighty Fists, though, requires a *LOT* of knowledge:
-What build is being used
-What is the party like
-How 'available' are items and spellcasting services
-Any really useful weapon enhancements available(valorous anyone?)
If you can get a druid, GMFang, or GMWeapon, then AoMF isn't worth considering.

Now, assuming 8 separate natural attacks(and all other things being equal), a +5 AoMF costs a little more than a +3 NoNA does. Now which is worth more to a totem rager? A +5 AoMF or a +1 valorous discipline(white raven) NoNA with a lesser crown of the white raven(for leading the charge)(the crown goes over by about 1800gp).

Sure, that's a semi-loaded example, but there's many situations where the NoNA wins the price comparison, despite being seemingly behind on the number of plusses.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, true. The main issue with AoMF is that it can't carry special equivalents. In your example, 8 natural attacks would be a PERFECT time to get a +1 Wounding NoNA, dealing 8 Con damage per round if all hit. Thats MUCH more damage than the extra 4 points per hit will result in from a +5 AoMF, assuming your foe has more than 8 HD (which, by the time you can afford that, should be every foe, even mooks).

[Godskook]

Yea, true. The main issue with AoMF is that it can't carry special equivalents. In your example, 8 natural attacks would be a PERFECT time to get a +1 Wounding NoNA, dealing 8 Con damage per round if all hit. Thats MUCH more damage than the extra 4 points per hit will result in from a +5 AoMF, assuming your foe has more than 8 HD (which, by the time you can afford that, should be every foe, even mooks).

wounding isn't as great an example, cause by that point, there's a lot out there immune to ability damage by default(and aren't there ways to block it too?)

[ericgrau]

The official ruling on bears wearing amulets is in fact "Ask your DM". So, do that.

[BluesEclipse]

If I make a character that uses a significant number of natural attacks, I simply ask the DM if they'd allow weapon effect enchantments on the AoMF - for 3x the enhancement price, in line with the standard pricing of the item.

I have yet to have a DM say no.