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jeice
2011-06-10, 06:57 PM
I posted a few days about my Dragonfire adept build but a few things have changed. I was originally going to use the rolls from a previous character that I decided not to play, but the DM allowed me to roll again. Rolls were not as extreme but nothing to write home about. We're fairly low power and roll 4d6b3 with no rerolls.

I came up with 16,14,13,10,10,9 and am trying to figure out the best race metagame wise that will make me the most effective. Keep in mind I'm only level 2 and we have low magic party (2 barbs, ranger, Paladin NPC and a Gnome wizard). My guy is meant to fill in the gaps and offer some battlefield control and depending on my path possibly a party face.

We are mostly core races with forgotten realms as well. I'm basically thinking:


Gnome to boost my CON and take advantage of the +1 ac for size.
Strongheat Halfing to boost my dex to (16) and get a +2 ac along with the extra feat.
Lesser Aasimar to bring up my lowest stats from 9 and 10 to 11 and 12 so I can have at least a +1 to CHA and no negatives at the expensive of only +3 to con and +2 to dex.


I might possibly be able to choose whisper gnome to get +2 to con AND dex getting the best of both worlds, but at the cost of my CHA going to 8.

So I'm pulling for Whisper Gnome and just letting my CHA go to a -1 mod. I'll have +2 ac versus the Aasimar and some mildly sneaky benefits. I won't be able to take advantage of the SLA's though due to the low CHA.

Lesser Aasimar is tempting as well however since it'll add +2 to my stats with no negatives, give me some good passive bonuses like darkvision and energy resistance and the +1 charisma will give me a better chance to be a face. The RP aspect of a celestial with dragon blood is also quite tempting.

Whisper Gnome. +2 ac (can hit 20ac from the get go with a chain shirt)

11 str
16 dex
18 con
10 int
9 wis
8 cha


Lesser Aasimar (-2 ac compared to gnome, but can still hit 20 with a shield if desired).

13 str
14 dex
16 con
10 int
11 wis
12 cha

Any recommendations? Also do DFA's have to use components for invocations or are they just SLA's?

Kosjsjach
2011-06-10, 07:11 PM
Anything with a Con bonus is your friend. You can easily be a party face with the Beguiling Influence invocation, and the Entangling Exhalation feat will give you excellent battlefield control.

You really shouldn't worry about Dex, as even though you're not proficient with armor or shields, the only thing you lose by wearing them is their ACP to hit, and if you do your Dragonfire Adept correctly, you should never have to make attack rolls.

This is worthwhile reading (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!).

To answer your final question, Invocations behave like SLAs, so no components required. (I think.)

EDIT: When I built a Dragonfire Adept, I went with Dragonborn Desert Half-Orc (template from Races of the Dragon, environmental racial variant from Unearthed Arcana). My net attributes were +4 Con -2 Dex -2 Int, and the only thing I lost from becoming Dragonborn was a racial Run feat.

Since you mentioned gnome as a possible race, might I suggest taking the Draconic Knowledge invocation and the Trivial Knowledge feat from Races of Stone. This gives you +6 to all Knowledge checks, and a free re-roll. Combine this with the feat Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) if you decide you do want to hit things.

jeice
2011-06-10, 07:16 PM
Anything with a Con bonus is your friend. You can easily be a party face with the Beguiling Influence invocation, and the Entangling Exhalation feat will give you excellent battlefield control.

You really shouldn't worry about Dex, as even though you're not proficient with armor or shields, the only thing you lose by wearing them is their ACP to hit, and if you do your Dragonfire Adept correctly, you should never have to make attack rolls.

This is worthwhile reading (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!).

To answer your final question, Invocations behave like SLAs, so no components required. (I think.)

I was only considering the dex for AC purposes, not for anything to do with skills or combat. You are correct about the beguiling influence, I just wasn't sure if I really wanted to take that invocation and instead just pump up those skills naturally.

I'm also planning on using UMD so any + cha will help that as well. If I was starting out at a higher level I'd just dump the str to 8 as a gnome and keep my cha in the positive, but without a haversack or mithril armor I really don't want to be worried about encumbrance. And my DM keeps any eye on that, especially if he sees that I've dumped my str. Although I guess 8 str as a gnome is easier to handle than a medium creature due to the way the weight is calculated.

Kaeso
2011-06-10, 07:17 PM
I don't know a lot about dragonfire adept, but a kobold with the dragonwrought feat is both useful (when venerable he gains +3 on all mental stats without the physical penalties, and as a dragon he has a loooooong life ahead of him despite being venerable) and flavourful. The best kind of kobold would either be a desert or jungle kobold (from unearthed arcana) because they don't get con penalties.

Zaq
2011-06-10, 07:19 PM
I've had very good experiences with a warforged DFA. They're incredibly hard to kill (super heavy CON focus, great immunities, good armor if you're into that sort of thing . . .) and plenty of fun if you play with the fluff a little bit. (Mine didn't think of himself as being draconic at all . . . he was basically Inspector Gadget.)

Overall, though, yeah, anything with a CON boost is great, but pretty much anything that doesn't have a CON penalty is good enough. There's the iconic dragonborn mongrelfolk for +6 CON at LA 0, but eh, frankly, I don't think that's necessary.

I will say that you shouldn't neglect DEX. With a BfC focus, you WANT to go first. That's really important. That way, you can either gum up your opponents before they can get to you (you DID take Entangling Exhalation, right?) or blast them all before they have a chance to spread out. Or both. A DEX-boosting race wouldn't be awful. A halfling DFA is a funny mental image.

But yeah, warforged make pretty awesome DFAs.

Darrin
2011-06-10, 07:22 PM
Any recommendations?


Arctic (Dragon #306) Dragonborn (RotD) Mongrelfolk: Dex -2, Con +8, Int -2, Cha -6, LA +0

I'm also rather fond of a Muckdweller (Serpent Kingdoms, tiny size) DFA: Str -6, Dex +6, Wis -2, Cha -2, LA +0. DFA also qualifies for Obtain Familiar (Complete Arcane), and could thus take another Muckdweller as a familiar... and subsequently both of them would frequently get confused about which one was which.

And then there's the Tibbit (Dragon Compendium) DFA: fire-breathing housecat. Hire an NPC commoner or barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195049) to act like a "wizard" while you pretend to be his familiar.



Also do DFA's have to use components for invocations or are they just SLA's?

Invocations are SLAs with somatic gestures (and thus subject to Arcane Spell Failure), but no verbal or material components.

subject42
2011-06-10, 07:23 PM
I've had very good experiences with a warforged DFA. They're incredibly hard to kill (super heavy CON focus, great immunities, good armor if you're into that sort of thing . . .) and plenty of fun if you play with the fluff a little bit. (Mine didn't think of himself as being draconic at all . . . he was basically Inspector Gadget.)

Dragonborn warforged is also pretty funny. They retain their subtype, and by extension most of the immunities, but they get a CON boost and some other stuff while they're at it.

Godskook
2011-06-10, 07:32 PM
1.I'm a big fan of Dwarf DFAs. They're also great excuses to wear high-AC armor, despite the penalties. Dwarf or not, wearing medium+ armor and a shield is totally viable for DFAs if you focus on long-duration buffs for your invocations. That means you can afford to dump dex down to a pre-racial 10 and still have a high AC.

2.Imho Endure Exposure isn't a choice, its a invocation-tax for playing a PC DFA(BBEG DFAs don't have that issue).

3.Given #2, you can't pick up Beguiling Influence till level 3, but once you do, a mild cha penalty isn't going to stop you from being the party face. Hell, with max ranks, invocation, and a -1 Cha, a non-DFA/Warlock would need a +5 Cha to match you on bluff/intimidate/diplomacy. Personally, I'd dump it lightly(8, but no less if you want to be the face) and not look back.

4.Honestly, Aasimar is kinda bad for DFAs. It provides no help towards AC or Breath weapon, which are kinda the two biggest goals of a low-level DFA.

Fax Celestis
2011-06-10, 07:37 PM
I played silverbrow human and took a bunch of draconic feats (including Silver Dragon Legacy). There is a surprisingly large number of things that a rocking disguise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm) check (~+12 at ECL 3, ~+20 at ECL 7, pre-items and pre-buffs) can do for you.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-06-10, 07:37 PM
Water Halfling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) combined with Strongheart Halfling, and forget Gnome ever existed.

DFAs don't have to worry about making attack rolls, and there's enough all-day buff invocations that you won't need to use any in combat or worry about ASF. Therefore, wear heavy armor and carry a tower shield, despite the nonproficiency penalties. Get Entangling Exhalation from RotD and keep every opponent debuffed with it.

Zaq
2011-06-10, 07:46 PM
DFAs don't have to worry about making attack rolls, and there's enough all-day buff invocations that you won't need to use any in combat or worry about ASF. Therefore, wear heavy armor and carry a tower shield, despite the nonproficiency penalties. Get Entangling Exhalation from RotD and keep every opponent debuffed with it.

These two things are likely to not happen at once. Nonproficiency penalties apply to initiative rolls. Having played a DFA for quite a while, I can say with confidence that initiative really, really matters for them. You may not be a Wizard, but you are still a battlefield controller, and the more pristine a canvas you have to paint on, the better you can sculpt the battle to your liking. If played well, your first turn has a very good chance of defining the flow of the first few rounds of battle, which is most certainly long enough. Don't waste it.

MeeposFire
2011-06-10, 07:51 PM
I always liked kobolds thematically. Desert kobolds if you want better con. Dragonwrout kobolds for dragonness. Dragonborn desert dragonwrought kobolds if needed for even more con. Fear the mighty fire breathing kobold.

jeice
2011-06-10, 07:51 PM
Wow so many replies. Keep in mind this is FR not Eberron so warforged are out and for now Dragonborn is not an option. Hopefully that option will open up down the road, but for now it's pretty much core. No dragonwrought kobolds either as the DM isn't big on any sort of monster races. His rules, not mine.

Yes I will be taking entangling exhalation as my first feat, and ability focus for my breath as my 2nd. Endure exposure is a requirement as mentioned. For my 2nd invocation I'm not really sure yet, but I'm seriously considering the beguiling influence. Our DM does have social encounters but as of yet we've all dropped dex so no one has truly tried to use intimidate or diplomacy with much luck.

So with somatic gestures I can still use a longspear and shield while using an invocation correctly? Not that it matters as I can simply put away my shield to buff and then reequip it after.

Wow and water halfling combined with strongheart would be my number one choice if allowed. Considering my mediocre rolls that'd be a perfect option in all ways, but is that combo usually considered RAW? I was thinking a strongheart was already a variant and not able to be mixed with an environmental variant. I'll speak with my DM, perhaps he'll allow it if I write it into my backstory and consider myself a descendant of water dragons or something. He likes halflings and we have none in the party so he just might go for it.

Amphetryon
2011-06-10, 07:52 PM
Check out the Duskling from Magic of Incarnum. CON bonus combined with free Essentia for some fun times, with the obvious option of taking additional feats from MoI. Combine with the Arctic template Darrin mentioned if available for better CON and ice-blue flavor text.

Zaq
2011-06-10, 07:53 PM
Wow so many replies. Keep in mind this is FR not Eberron so warforged are out and for now Dragonborn is not an option. Hopefully that option will open up down the road, but for now it's pretty much core. No dragonwrought kobolds either as the DM isn't big on any sort of monster races. His rules, not mine.

Yes I will be taking entangling exhalation as my first feat, and ability focus for my breath as my 2nd. Endure exposure is a requirement as mentioned. For my 2nd invocation I'm not really sure yet, but I'm seriously considering the beguiling influence. Our DM does have social encounters but as of yet we've all dropped dex so no one has truly tried to use intimidate or diplomacy with much luck.

So with somatic gestures I can still use a longspear and shield while using an invocation correctly? Not that it matters as I can simply put away my shield to buff and then reequip it after.

Wow and water halfling combined with strongheart would be my number one choice if allowed. Considering my mediocre rolls that'd be a perfect option in all ways, but is that combo usually considered RAW? I was thinking a strongheart was already a variant and not able to be mixed with an environmental variant. I'll speak with my DM, perhaps he'll allow it if I write it into my backstory and consider myself a descendant of water dragons or something. He likes halflings and we have none in the party so he just might go for it.

Warforged are in the MM3, a setting-neutral book. There's nothing saying they can't be in FR. I'd have a hard time imagining a GM who would allow a water strongheart halfling but not a warforged.

subject42
2011-06-10, 07:56 PM
Hopefully that option will open up down the road, but for now it's pretty much core. No dragonwrought kobolds either as the DM isn't big on any sort of monster races. His rules, not mine.

If you're stuck with core, DWARF AS HARD AS YOU CAN.

CONSUME ALCOHOL, FLAVOR YOUR BREATH WEAPON AS FIERY BOOZE EXHALATIONS.

DESCRIBE YOUR NATURAL ARMOR AS WEAPONS SHATTERING AGAINST YOUR THICK, LUSCIOUS BEARD.

Um, I got a little carried away there, but the point still stands.

jeice
2011-06-10, 08:03 PM
If you're stuck with core, DWARF AS HARD AS YOU CAN.

CONSUME ALCOHOL, FLAVOR YOUR BREATH WEAPON AS FIERY BOOZE EXHALATIONS.

DESCRIBE YOUR NATURAL ARMOR AS WEAPONS SHATTERING AGAINST YOUR THICK, LUSCIOUS BEARD.

Um, I got a little carried away there, but the point still stands.

I do like Dorf's but we have one in the party already, and for some reason I see a halfing more a DFA than a dwarf hehe.

As far as the warforged I personally agree with you. The problem is I'm by far the most versed in D&D besides the DM, while the others are your basic core knowledge folks. I mean we have a Dwarf Barbarian, a Half-Orc Barbarian/Fighter, a Gnome Wizard and a Human Ranger. We had a Dwarf Cleric that died so he became a Barbarian after being jealous of how much damage the other Barbarian was doing. Yeah.. that's what I'm working with here :smalleek:.

I think the DM doesn't want to bring in non-standard races just yet though I personally think it'd be good for them to get exposure. I will be guest DMing in the near future and oh how the world will change. They will soon meet be meeting warlocks, warforged, swordsages and other various people. (No ToB in the game yet either, due to complexity versus the standard "I swing my sword again!").

jeice
2011-06-10, 08:07 PM
Also considering the non-prof in armor penalizing the initiative thing, is it feasible to take a single level in another useful class to pick up the armor proficiency to fix the problem along with whatever other goodies you can get?

I was considering 1 level of dragon shaman to gain the 3 auras, armor profiency and a few more hps from the D10. I know it slows down DFA levels but it seems it could be worth it at this low of a level and benefit me through the long haul. Had I started out at a higher level I wouldn't even consider the option, but starting out so low really changes perspective on builds.

afroakuma
2011-06-10, 08:13 PM
Warforged are in the MM3, a setting-neutral book. There's nothing saying they can't be in FR. I'd have a hard time imagining a GM who would allow a water strongheart halfling but not a warforged.

Hi! I'm a DM who would allow a water strongheart halfling but not a warforged! Pleased to meet you!

Zaq
2011-06-10, 08:19 PM
Huh. Fascinating. Do you have something specifically against warforged, or just a setting that's very resistant to new races but very flexible with existing ones?

I mean this sincerely, by the way.

afroakuma
2011-06-10, 08:25 PM
Huh. Fascinating. Do you have something specifically against warforged, or just a setting that's very resistant to new races but very flexible with existing ones?

I mean this sincerely, by the way.

I have something against warforged outside of Eberron. I'm fine with them being in Eberron.

subject42
2011-06-10, 08:27 PM
I do like Dorf's but we have one in the party already, and for some reason I see a halfing more a DFA than a dwarf hehe.

Play a young dwarf that hasn't gotten properly beardy yet, then?

I'm assuming that would be in the 4 - 8 year old range.

jeice
2011-06-10, 08:32 PM
Hi! I'm a DM who would allow a water strongheart halfling but not a warforged! Pleased to meet you!

That almost made me spit out my soda haha.


I do get where he's coming from though. My DM likes sort of the traditional concept of fantasy d&d and isn't really into the whole steampunk setting. Personally I enjoy both and I can imagine them being mixed, but for now it's his game.

Greenish
2011-06-10, 08:47 PM
Halflings and gnomes are monster races. Aasimar most definitely are a monster race!

…Kobolds are just misunderstood. :smalltongue:

afroakuma
2011-06-10, 08:58 PM
I do get where he's coming from though. My DM likes sort of the traditional concept of fantasy d&d and isn't really into the whole steampunk setting. Personally I enjoy both and I can imagine them being mixed, but for now it's his game.

I'm fine with the steampunk aesthetic, but I dislike how Eberron became the "new default" for D&D worlds. There's not a game I run now where someone doesn't ask to play a warforged, and so the hammer has come down.

Greenish
2011-06-10, 10:24 PM
I'm fine with the steampunk aesthetic, but I dislike how Eberron became the "new default" for D&D worlds. There's not a game I run now where someone doesn't ask to play a warforged, and so the hammer has come down.Huh, so you ban them because people want to play them?

Fax Celestis
2011-06-10, 10:25 PM
He bans them because they don't fit in his world. Which is reasonable. It's like wanting to play a werewolf in the silver flame: you can't, there are none.

Greenish
2011-06-10, 10:28 PM
He bans them because they don't fit in his world.That's fine, but it's not what he said. :smallconfused:

Godskook
2011-06-10, 10:29 PM
Huh, so you ban them because people want to play them?

For the same reason some might ban Drow. Cause it was getting overplayed.

Fax Celestis
2011-06-10, 10:29 PM
I dislike how Eberron became the "new default" for D&D worlds.

Implication: "My world is not the default D&D world".

Tavar
2011-06-10, 10:37 PM
Not really. He said that he dislikes people asking for them, and then the hammer came down. The implication there is that, because something is popular, he no longer allows it.

Greenish
2011-06-10, 10:45 PM
For the same reason some might ban Drow. Cause it was getting overplayed.In case of drow, wouldn't natural selection cull the amount of drow adventurers pretty fast? :smalltongue:


Implication: "My world is not the default D&D world".I don't see how you're making the leap from "I don't like Eberron being the default world" to "My world is not the default D&D world" to "I ban warforged because they don't fit into my world", but maybe you're right and I'm just failing at reading comprehension. :smallconfused:


[Edit]: At least I'm not alone in misinterpreting the implication:
For the same reason some might ban Drow. Cause it was getting overplayed.

Not really. He said that he dislikes people asking for them, and then the hammer came down. The implication there is that, because something is popular, he no longer allows it.

BluesEclipse
2011-06-10, 10:48 PM
My suggestion(having not read the entire topic):

Dark, Mineral Warrior, Dragonborn, Incarnate Construct Warforged. Consult your DM before applying.

By RAW, it's entirely legal*, and has LA +0. Depending on just how much your group optimizes, it could result in books being thrown at you, since you're getting +8 Con, +2 Str, +3 Natural Armor, DR 8/Adamantine, 40' land speed, 25' burrow speed, Darkvision, and your choice of dragonborn traits, all with LA +0.

Admittedly, the penalties(-2 Dex, -2 Int, -4 Wis, -4 Cha) require a bit of work to circumvent - it's not an option for a highly MAD class - but if you're focused on the breath weapon aspect, and use the invocations as support, it's still nice.

*To make this work, templates apply in the following order:
Warforged(Base Race) -> Incarnate Construct(-2 LA, become Humanoid - And yes, this is legal by RAW. Living Construct is a subtype of Construct, after all, and IC can be applied to any construct.) -> Dragonborn(Lose all qualities other than stat bonuses - you lost most of those anyway with IC) -> Mineral Warrior(+1 LA - Total LA at this point is -1) -> Dark(+1 LA - Total LA becomes 0. You can swap this with Mineral Warrior, but you lose 5' from your burrow speed by doing so.)

Leon
2011-06-10, 11:00 PM
My suggestion(having not read the entire topic):


My Suggestion - read the entire topic

Tavar
2011-06-10, 11:03 PM
Generally a best practice, yes.

jeice
2011-06-11, 12:31 AM
So it seems like I got the majority of my questions answered. If DM will go for it I'm all in for a Water Strongheart Halfling. If not I'll go with another option but I think a small race has a big advantage without having to worry about losing weapon damage.

So what about one level of Dragon Shaman to pick up the 3 auras, a D10 hit die to begin the game with on top of gaining armor and shield proficiencies to negate the initiative loss? I know DFA's are best when not multi-classed, but since I'm starting from level 1 it only delays me a little bit. If I was starting higher then I'd probably pass and just get as high as I could for the benefits.

The other reason is our group has no healer. None. And as of yet we don't have a healing wand or anything. I was thinking at least the vigor aura would give me some ability to stop someone from dying in an emergency and we could start each new encounter with at least 50% hit point. The extra aura's wouldn't hurt either. Just not sure if it's worth it in the end.

Kosjsjach
2011-06-11, 01:13 AM
I see no compelling reason not to take the Dragon Shaman level. It's flavorful and mechanically beneficial. If you were playing E6 then it would be a terrible idea, as you'd lose out on Lesser invocations, but hey, you're not. (Presumably.)

Go forth, have fun. And if your DM doesn't like the notion of a Water Strongheart halfling (I admit, I don't), I'd consider a Dragonborn gnome. Small size, +4 Con, and even more dragon flavor? Why not?

(Heck, if you want to go all-out, start as a Stonehunter Gnome. You'd lose the racial traits when (if) you transition to Dragonborn, but they weren't giving you too much anyway.)

Greenish
2011-06-11, 01:18 AM
I see no compelling reason not to take the Dragon Shaman level.Getting your first Lesser invocation on level 6 allows you to pick Fly-by Attack as the 6th level feat, otherwise you'd have to wait for level 9.

jeice
2011-06-11, 02:03 AM
I see no compelling reason not to take the Dragon Shaman level. It's flavorful and mechanically beneficial. If you were playing E6 then it would be a terrible idea, as you'd lose out on Lesser invocations, but hey, you're not. (Presumably.)

Go forth, have fun. And if your DM doesn't like the notion of a Water Strongheart halfling (I admit, I don't), I'd consider a Dragonborn gnome. Small size, +4 Con, and even more dragon flavor? Why not?

(Heck, if you want to go all-out, start as a Stonehunter Gnome. You'd lose the racial traits when (if) you transition to Dragonborn, but they weren't giving you too much anyway.)

I would admit that normally I'd think water strongheart halfling a bit much to swallow, but considering my mediocre rolls it isn't overpowering. I am known to roll absolutely horrible on my characters hehe. Our first cleric had two 18's and a 16 with nothing below an 11. My last guy had a 9 AND a 6 and only one 17 on top. So even with that combo it only gives me an 18 and 16 with a 13,10,10,9 so he might go for it. I would explain in his backstory that he basically worshipped the green dragons (water, nature, etc..) and it actually seems to fit the halfling race. I tend to actually put work into my backstory and the only one to put my nose in the books to optimize a bit so he usually allows me some leniency.

Also Dragonborn isn't on his list of "likes", however since I probably won't do any PrC's I see a chance in the future to pick up this template by RPing in game. For now it's off limits.

jeice
2011-06-11, 04:03 AM
Ok decided going with straight dragonfire adept and skipping the dragon shaman. I'll be happier in the long run and I can always take a level later if I really wanted to. If we're having trouble without a cleric we'll have to hire an NPC or maybe the DM will supply us with a wand as treasure.

I just created my sheet and I think the DM will want to throw the book at me hehe. 22 ac at level 2 with mundane items and that's higher than anyone in the group. +3 dex, +2 scales, +1 size, +4 chain shirt(free regional item), +1 light shield and if I took luck of heroes I'd get a +1 luck to ac. That feat might be a bit of a waste, but it replaces the saves and gives 1 ac back so it's arguable. Even with the armor penalty it only negates my dex bonus. If I really wanted I could take improved initiative and still come out way ahead.

Draz74
2011-06-11, 10:58 AM
DFA's aren't especially feat-starved. You could just go with a Water Halfling if your DM doesn't like Water Strongheart Halfling.

jeice
2011-06-11, 02:08 PM
That's completely true. If he doesn't like the combo he should be ok with the water halfling considering he asked me which color dragon I'd like to be related to. Seeing as green is nature related it fits perfect with the halfling.

I sent off an email so hopefully he'll get back to me soon. I also never noticed this but the dragontouched feat actually gives 1 hp, some saves vs sleep and paralysis and bonuses to skills. I had always assumed it only gave the dragonblood subtype so I never bothered to look any deeper and apply the benefits. At this level I'll take anything.

Edit: I just sort of had an epiphany on a secondary class choice. What if I were to take shapeshift druid for 1 level to pick up the predator form? It would be under the assumption that I would be able to use my breath while in that form, but it seems to have huge benefits. Would allow me to use any level 1 Druid wand including lessor vigor without having to roll. Would give me 50ft movement and 4ac without even wearing armor. With 3 dex, 2 scales, 1 size I'd be at 20ac without even worrying about armor and I could dump str to 8 since it gives a bonus and without armor I wouldn't be overweight.

Rejakor
2011-06-11, 10:36 PM
It's not a horrible move but you'd have the same AC wearing a chain shirt, and you'd be up one level of DFA.

scrobacca
2013-11-19, 07:23 PM
As far as races go, I just went with Human. Most races lose everything that makes them great as races because the only thing you're allowed to keep when you become a dragonborn is basically your attribute bonuses. As a human, sure I lost my bonus feat and my extra skill points, but my build works with it, because I was able to take Able Learner. I went 3 Rogue/2 DFA/10 Urban Soul. Combine that with Collector of Stories and Draconic Knowledge, and take the Urban Soul prestige class...I get an automatic +11 to determine strengths/weaknesses/etc. about my enemies. If I really want to push it, I can take the Knowledge Devotion feat as well, not to mention that I already have +6 from my INT. That's +17 before rolling anything....not including skill ranks. My party sure is happy that I can grant them all +3D6 damage against pretty much any creature we fight.