Batman vs Harry Dresden

[Erts]

Okay, two friends of mine were having this discussion. I want the Playground's thoughts.

Who would win in a hypothetical fight where Batman (Bruce Wayne) fought Harry Dresden? This is Dresden at the end of Small Favor (a standard version.)
A key thing that I think is important to remember is that Dresden (as well as Batman) is a big user of "prep time."

A: Start off 20 feet from each other. Not aiming to kill.
B: Start off 20 feet aiming to kill.
C: A and B at night.
D: 5 minutes of prep time.
E: A week of prep time.
F: Surprise attack by Batman.
G: Surprise attack by Dresden.

In A, B, C, F, and G, neither Dresden or Batman know the others powers, other than "oh, wizard like guy" or "modern ninja." (What they can see from appearance.)
Thoughts?

[Fjolnir]

C might be a good advantage for Batman, with 5 minutes probably Dresden, Batman would probably win with a week. F and G go to the initiator in most situations. A would likely go to batman if he can land the first blow, while B would rarely happen.

[Erts]

C might be a good advantage for Batman, with 5 minutes probably Dresden, Batman would probably win with a week. F and G go to the initiator in most situations. A would likely go to batman if he can land the first blow, while B would rarely happen.

B is a hypothetical, because people make arguments about "well if they were trying to kill each other...."

[KnightDisciple]

Let's see.

A: Start off 20 feet from each other. Not aiming to kill.: I'd lean heavily towards Batman. Offhand, Dresden's main "reach" spells that won't kill are either some form of crude TK, or a ranged "punch" from his rings. With Batman wearing the body armor that he does, that "punch" would likely do a lot less. Batman would be able to close the distance with trouble, but he's fought guys with worse stuff at hand before. And up close, it's Batman, no contest.

B: Start off 20 feet aiming to kill. This one I lean towards Dresden on. His fire spells would probably just roast Batman if he couldn't get out of the area in time. And Dresden has shown he's pretty good with those things.
Still, if Batman's fast enough, he could try flanking Dresden, and it might work. He'd just throw down a few gas pellets or whatnot, then sneak up behind him and slit his throat with a sharp batarang.

C: A and B at night. A goes to Batman so hard it isn't even funny. B becomes a very close match, leaning a bit towards Batman. Mainly because Harry has no instant "night vision" spells or anything.

D: 5 minutes of prep time. Even match. Dresden's a good improvisor with a few minutes of pressure, but Batman's scarily clever.

E: A week of prep time. Batman. He ultimately has more resources, and so could come up with very exotic items to counter Dresden. Who has to speak and gesture to cast spells. That's a big weakness. Batman can just sit on a fire escape and toss stuff his way.
Yes, Dresden could likely come up with ways to better detect the Dark Knight in the dark, but still. He uses Fire and Force to almost the exclusion of anything else, and Batman has faced guys who use fire as a weapon before. He'd beef up the suit a bit to absorb impacts more, and to be even more fireproof.

F: Surprise attack by Batman. Batman. No contest. He's big on "one hit, one knockout", so he'd likely drop in and nerve-strike Dresden so that he'd be helpless and unconscious in seconds. If aiming to kill, he'd just sneak up and slit his throat or something similar; maybe coat him entirely in quick-drying foam.

G: Surprise attack by Dresden. Dresden. Without even a warning, his magic is potent enough it would at least knock Batman for enough of a loop that he'd be pretty helpless. Going for lethal would make it easier, since, again, fire spells would roast the Batman.

[Mauve Shirt]

Harry could use the Sight for C. I wonder what Batman would look like under Dresden's Sight.

[KnightDisciple]

Harry could use the Sight for C. I wonder what Batman would look like under Dresden's Sight.Of course, if they're in Gotham, it might overload him. And I'm not sure how well "use The Sight as night vision" actually works. Remember that it's not a selective power; he sees that extra info on everything, and it sears into his brain.

Batman would likely end up sorta like how Murphy did; barring a wildly different Batman, he's still a basically good guy fighting against the worst human scum around, all while sticking to his morals and not killing.

...Part of me is curious what the Joker would look like, but it's something best left un-thought-of.

[Lord Raziere]

Harry could use the Sight for C. I wonder what Batman would look like under Dresden's Sight.

*turns on Sight*
You look.......like a Bat? is this thing on right?

and what would he look like if their eyes soulgazed?

"I see a great analytical mind. Purely analytical. Everything is in its right place. It is a fortress, powerful and labyrinthine. However, the fortress was once better, once shinier, but now its obsidian in the night. At the same time, the fortress didn't exist when it was shiny, minds are weird like that.
But there are.....discrepancies.
I see two things in particular that are not in its right place. I see a great clownish scare scarecrow forever pointing and laughing at the fortress on the outside...and even the fortress is unsure of how to deal with it.
On the inside, down beneath it all is a crying child forever asking where are his parents, between these two things that are Out of Place there is strength, and reason and logic"

as for Joker in the Sight......:smalleek:
"I am not going to say what I saw and I wish I could use my fire spells to burn it out of my brain"

Joker in the soulgaze:
"OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD WHY DID I SOULGAZE HIM!? *runs away screaming*"

[Gruffard]

Harry could use the Sight for C. I wonder what Batman would look like under Dresden's Sight.

I am not so sure how that would work, but more importantly... Harry tends to use the Sight as a last resort, he dislikes using it (for good reason). I do not think Harry would use it first. Probably do the Light spell thing first, which might not help against the Bat.


Of course, if they're in Gotham, it might overload him. And I'm not sure how well "use The Sight as night vision" actually works. Remember that it's not a selective power; he sees that extra info on everything, and it sears into his brain.


Yea.. Gotham isn't pretty and is described as that city that is everything we dislike about cities... coruption, greed, poverty.. etc.

[KnightDisciple]

Because remember folks: Harry doesn't just gain new perspective on people when he uses The Sight. He sees a new perspective on places.

I point to Storm Front, where the house that the final fight took place in looked nice normally, but was a horrible, twisted thing crawling with shadows and small demons when view through The Sight.

That said, Batman might stand out because despite the dark colors he dresses in, he's a decent man focused on protecting the innocent and seeing justice done. He may well end up all shiny and white via the Sight. Perhaps so much so it blinds Dresden.

The lesson: The Sight isn't very good for in-combat use. :smallwink:

[Mewtarthio]

Because remember folks: Harry doesn't just gain new perspective on people when he uses The Sight. He sees a new perspective on places.

He gets a bit of insight into people as well, though nowhere near what he gets from a soulgaze. Mainly he uses it to see if there are any non-obvious magical effects on the subject, but it does give some metaphorical information on the subject's personality and/or major metaphysical traits (eg Murphy appearing as an avenging angel, or Kincaid appearing as a demon).

[KnightDisciple]

He gets a bit of insight into people as well, though nowhere near what he gets from a soulgaze. Mainly he uses it to see if there are any non-obvious magical effects on the subject, but it does give some metaphorical information on the subject's personality and/or major metaphysical traits (eg Murphy appearing as an avenging angel, or Kincaid appearing as a demon).Um, right, I acknowledged that.


Because remember folks: Harry doesn't just gain new perspective on people when he uses The Sight. He sees a new perspective on places.I was merely stating the affect goes beyond only people and people-like beings.

As well, it takes him precious seconds of concentration to open and close the sight. Seconds Batman could exploit.

[Lamech]

A: Start off 20 feet from each other. Not aiming to kill.Shield+that sleep spell he used once. Or force to levitate batman or something. Batman doesn't carry around the firepower to break the shield and even if he did he is too much on the not killing.


B: Start off 20 feet aiming to kill.See above, except Dresden shoots batman at the end.


C: A and B at night.Sight/night-vision goggles. No real change.



D: 5 minutes of prep time.Nevernever. Surprise attack from the nevernever. While batman is sleeping or something. Dresden can use spirits for recon. Or better yet the killing part too.


E: A week of prep time.Like case D, except so much worse. Can I throw in a Darkhallow?


F: Surprise attack by Batman.Batman better win this one. Really, he better not mess this up.


G: Surprise attack by Dresden.Fired bats. Or really more like surprise attack from the Nevernever with anti-personal mines.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Excepting surprise attack from Bats, as a blow to the back of the head or something similar, Harry will win. He can shrug off anything Bats throws has with his shield ring, has his duster for backup, make things extra crispy with his blasting rod or staff, oh yeah and Soulfire.

Bat isn't willing to snipe Harry a la you know... and his general strategy for magic is to call up one of the DCU heroes that does deal with it. So generally he is going to loose, though if each scenario was run ten time you would see some variation.

[KnightDisciple]

Shield+that sleep spell he used once. Or force to levitate batman or something. Batman doesn't carry around the firepower to break the shield and even if he did he is too much on the not killing.Batman doesn't have to break the shield. Consider that Dresden's magic takes concentration and focus. Batman has stun grenades, tear gas pellets, and so forth. Dresden's shield has never been one that totally encompasses him; at best, it covers perhaps 180 degrees. And those batarangs? They can curve in flight.
Remember as well that many spells that aren't burnination can be coutnered with sufficient willpower. Batman has that in spades.


See above, except Dresden shoots batman at the end. Well, yes. If you can turn half a block into charcoal, it's hard for Batman to counter that instantly.


Sight/night-vision goggles. No real change.You do remember that wizards and high-tech don't mix well, yes? And that NVGs of any stripe are decidedly high-tech. Which means it's back to the Sight, which, as was just discussed, is not an easymode/instantwin button.


Nevernever. Surprise attack from the nevernever. While batman is sleeping or something. Dresden can use spirits for recon. Or better yet the killing part too.Um...Harry has to know where he's going to use the nevernever like that. This premise says nothing about "Harry knows where Batman sleeps". Thus, that plan doesn't work. And Harry doesn't have "spirits" at his beck and call. He can use sprites, but they're only so useful. And in 5 minutes? It's useless.

Meanwhile, Batman, who has dealt with plenty of mystics before, is likely stocking up on a large stash of anti-mage gear.

This is one case where "Batman wins with prep time" has a solid foundation. He's dealt with magic users; Harry hasn't actualy dealt with anyone close to Batman before (Marcone has money, yes, but he typically just uses guns and goons, not inventive gadgets that think outside the box).


Like case D, except so much worse. Can I throw in a Darkhallow?Even with a week, the Nevernever isn't very useful.

And the premise doesn't encompasse "they're willing to kill tens of thousands for power". At most it's "they're willing to kill each other".


Batman better win this one. Really, he better not mess this up.I'm not sure how you think he could, since "surprise attack" is kind of one of his basic tactics.

[QUOTE=Lamech;11186716Fired bats. Or really more like surprise attack from the Nevernever with anti-personal mines.[/QUOTE]Again with the technology. There's a reason Harry doesn't use grenades, mines, etc. Not just because they're hard to get a hold of (he got his hands on depleted uranium dust, for crying out loud); but because he fully expects them to blow up in his face. And with his magic's Murphyonic field, it would.

And again, you're assigning far too much tactical flexibility to Nevernever travel. It's a good strategic asset, allowing quicker movement over long distances. It's halfway decent as an emergency escape method. But as a method to move 30 feet over and pop out? No.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Batman doesn't have to break the shield. Consider that Dresden's magic takes concentration and focus. Batman has stun grenades, tear gas pellets, and so forth. Dresden's shield has never been one that totally encompasses him; at best, it covers perhaps 180 degrees. And those batarangs? They can curve in flight.
Remember as well that many spells that aren't burnination can be coutnered with sufficient willpower. Batman has that in spades.

Except Harry's shield is a full sphere whenever he wants it to be. There's a good example in The Warrior of Harry driving the Beetle with it on and covering every direction at once for fear of a sniper.

Which also gives us a baseline for what it would take to break that shield a .50 Cal rifle and Bat's non-lethal gear doesn't measure up.


Meanwhile, Batman, who has dealt with plenty of mystics before, is likely stocking up on a large stash of anti-mage gear.

This is one case where "Batman wins with prep time" has a solid foundation. He's dealt with magic users; Harry hasn't actualy dealt with anyone close to Batman before (Marcone has money, yes, but he typically just uses guns and goons, not inventive gadgets that think outside the box).

Please don't make prep time arguments (serious ones) without something for them to go on. All the preparations in the world mean little if you don't have the tools and basis to beat something in the first place.

Bats doesn't have anti-mage gear as its not in fact something he deals with. Most of his stories with magic are going to have another DCU magic user (Zatanna, Etrigan, Dr Fate, etc) to help him out. Magic is fairly consistently treated as another world in the DCU dealt with by other magic users first.

Find a case where Bats has dealt with magic users and how what he did there might work against Harry and that when you have an argument we can cover with prep time to set up.


Again with the technology. There's a reason Harry doesn't use grenades, mines, etc. Not just because they're hard to get a hold of (he got his hands on depleted uranium dust, for crying out loud); but because he fully expects them to blow up in his face. And with his magic's Murphyonic field, it would.

We have yet to see Harry's Murphyonic field actually effect weapons. About the only thing is a claim that a letter bomb wouldn't work because it have to be lower tech and therefore bulkier. And that was internal discussion not demonstration. This is because most weapons are really very simple in terms of tech. You don't need electronics to make a grenade.

Harry doesn't use them because while he could likely get some from the underworld of Chicago (or just ask Kincaid...) they wouldn't be cheap and he's poor, plus that would be pushing the law rather too much into the "I'm going to be suspected of terrorism" territory, and Harry is not Kincaid.

[KnightDisciple]

Except Harry's shield is a full sphere whenever he wants it to be. There's a good example in The Warrior of Harry driving the Beetle with it on and covering every direction at once for fear of a sniper.

Which also gives us a baseline for what it would take to break that shield a .50 Cal rifle and Bat's non-lethal gear doesn't measure up. Again, this is where items like flashbangs and the like come into play. They don't need to penetrate the shield to do their thing; sound and light obviously travel through the shield. Shoot, I'd wager tear gas could get through, or if it couldn't, Dresden would have to drop it eventually.




Please don't make prep time arguments (serious ones) without something for them to go on. All the preparations in the world mean little if you don't have the tools and basis to beat something in the first place.

Bats doesn't have anti-mage gear as its not in fact something he deals with. Most of his stories with magic are going to have another DCU magic user (Zatanna, Etrigan, Dr Fate, etc) to help him out. Magic is fairly consistently treated as another world in the DCU dealt with by other magic users first.

Find a case where Bats has dealt with magic users and how what he did there might work against Harry and that when you have an argument we can cover with prep time to set up. Against a magic user whose most potent constant defenses are his fortified duster (which would help somewhat, but is by no means perfect) and a shield he has to concentrat to keep up, Batman has more advantages.

Consider the fact that Dresden magic has to, at least to some extent, obey physics. If Harry makes fire, he has to take the heat from somewhere, and it acts like fire. Same with ice, lightning, etc. He gets tired. He's still eminently woundable.

All Batman has to do is slip something into the mix that keeps Harry from speaking, and it buys him extra seconds to do something. Yes, Harry still has his shield and force rings. But the shield is defensive, and he can't do it forever. The rings have only so many charges, and are pretty obvious when he's aiming them.

More generally, Batman has fought the likes of Clayface, Mister Freeze, and Firefly (to cover shapeshifting, ice-throwing, and fire-throwing). Harry isn't proficient enough to flick a finger and execute a huge spell. He still has to speak and make larger gestures of intent. Which, again, buys seconds for Batman to plan and act.



We have yet to see Harry's Murphyonic field actually effect weapons. About the only thing is a claim that a letter bomb wouldn't work because it have to be lower tech and therefore bulkier. And that was internal discussion not demonstration. This is because most weapons are really very simple in terms of tech. You don't need electronics to make a grenade.

Harry doesn't use them because while he could likely get some from the underworld of Chicago (or just ask Kincaid...) they wouldn't be cheap and he's poor, plus that would be pushing the law rather too much into the "I'm going to be suspected of terrorism" territory, and Harry is not Kincaid.As I recall, he was rather surprised when Ramirez had actual grenades in White Night.

He doesn't use a semiautomatic handgun because it has a chance of mechanically jamming; the Murphyonic field isn't limited to electronics, that's just where it's most prominent. So yes, it does affect weapons.

[Tyndmyr]

Note that its fairly trivial for Dresden to intentionally kill electronics, etc, even with some range. Assuming that Bats gadgetry will continue to work after dresden sees them is questionable at best.

The shield does fine against explosions, so I see no reason why a flashbang would be a problem. Now, it does not stop intense heat, so thermite/wp might be problematic, but that seems unlikely due to lethality.

[shadow_archmagi]

The shield does fine against explosions, so I see no reason why a flashbang would be a problem. Now, it does not stop intense heat, so thermite/wp might be problematic, but that seems unlikely due to lethality.

Dresden can still see and hear normally inside the shield, so the flash and bang would still get through, leaving Dresden deaf and blind at worst and momentarily distracted at best. That gives bats time to punch him.

[Fjolnir]

the "batman goes to see a DCU mage for advice and tactics" is why he ends up getting beat to crap with 5 minutes of prep and wins with a week. Assume that A or C happens and bats loses, the next thing he does, assuming he gets away is contacts one of the many mages he has on speed dial, at least one of them would have some mystic geegaw bats could use to even the odds. This is barring Bats finding out that Harry Dresden is in the phone book under wizards and simply sending another person to purchase something directly from him to do the job.

[Venom3053000]

Find a case where Bats has dealt with magic users and how what he did there might work against Harry and that when you have an argument we can cover with prep time to set up.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNdWyZ--rRY
:smallbiggrin:


hmm used quote why doesn't their name show up?

[Fjolnir]

My point was with a week, he would consult mages and gain what he needed from them, be it physical assistance or gadgetry or whatnot. He can and will go for help if he loses the initial fight OR if he incapacitates his opponent and determines magic is involved.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Again, this is where items like flashbangs and the like come into play. They don't need to penetrate the shield to do their thing; sound and light obviously travel through the shield. Shoot, I'd wager tear gas could get through, or if it couldn't, Dresden would have to drop it eventually.

Which is nice but Harry has taken plenty of hits over the years. The shield is entirely entitle to stay up against a flash bang. And if Harry is willing to go on his own bubble of air he'd stop tear gas. Which isn't terribly bad either (I speak from experience) if you set your mind to it and don't mind your sinuses cleaned out.



Against a magic user whose most potent constant defenses are his fortified duster (which would help somewhat, but is by no means perfect) and a shield he has to concentrat to keep up, Batman has more advantages.

Bats has less defenses then Harry given that he just has body armor. His own gadgets are hardly the scale of Dresden's magic. His only real advantage is in a fist fight if Harry can't get his force rings into play to end it.


Consider the fact that Dresden magic has to, at least to some extent, obey physics. If Harry makes fire, he has to take the heat from somewhere, and it acts like fire. Same with ice, lightning, etc. He gets tired. He's still eminently woundable.

Given what he pulls in Fool Moon launching a death beam knocking an invincible beast through a building years before Small Favorl during which time he's only improved, the comparative limits of Harry's magic are not going to be an issue.


All Batman has to do is slip something into the mix that keeps Harry from speaking, and it buys him extra seconds to do something. Yes, Harry still has his shield and force rings. But the shield is defensive, and he can't do it forever. The rings have only so many charges, and are pretty obvious when he's aiming them.

More generally, Batman has fought the likes of Clayface, Mister Freeze, and Firefly (to cover shapeshifting, ice-throwing, and fire-throwing). Harry isn't proficient enough to flick a finger and execute a huge spell. He still has to speak and make larger gestures of intent. Which, again, buys seconds for Batman to plan and act.

Harry doesn't need to speak or anything to cast. At all. It only makes things easier for him. Since Bats isn't about to endanger others. All it does at best is to get Harry to break-out the Soulfire.





As I recall, he was rather surprised when Ramirez had actual grenades in White Night.

He doesn't use a semiautomatic handgun because it has a chance of mechanically jamming; the Murphyonic field isn't limited to electronics, that's just where it's most prominent. So yes, it does affect weapons.

Ramirez has grenades, stands next to Dresden in a wizard battle while he wields magic himself and doesn't die from one going off spontaneously. I. Rest. My. Case.

Dresden talks about it but does it happen? He's gone alongside plenty of people with automatics and nothing happens. Sure there's probably some increased chance but the fact of the matter is that doubling or tripling the chances aren't going to mean appreciable chances with a well maintained weapon. Jamming is a rare occurrence more from operator error then any mechanical defect to be exacerbated. Harry's just being dense and stubborn, much why he doesn't wear a magically reinforced hat to go with his coat whatever the covers would have us believe.

[The Glyphstone]

Dresden talks about it but does it happen? He's gone alongside plenty of people with automatics and nothing happens. Sure there's probably some increased chance but the fact of the matter is that doubling or tripling the chances aren't going to mean appreciable chances with a well maintained weapon. Jamming is a rare occurrence more from operator error then any mechanical defect to be exacerbated. Harry's just being dense and stubborn, much why he doesn't wear a magically reinforced hat to go with his coat whatever the covers would have us believe.

But yet his car has all sorts of issues, and he can't even wear a mechanical watch for very long before it stops, let alone a digital one. The only real conclusion you can draw isn't that Harry is stubborn and in denial, so much that the Murphyonic Field is random and inconsistent in what it screws up. Frankly, I wouldn't put a grenade at any risk of going wrong with wizards...the things have no moving parts aside from the pin and the little spring-loaded striker, they'd work as well as Harry's pistol.

[KnightDisciple]

Which is nice but Harry has taken plenty of hits over the years. The shield is entirely entitle to stay up against a flash bang. And if Harry is willing to go on his own bubble of air he'd stop tear gas. Which isn't terribly bad either (I speak from experience) if you set your mind to it and don't mind your sinuses cleaned out. The flashbang isn't meant to "take down the shield" by itself. It's meant to disorient Harry. And as stated, light and especially sound travel through the shield. If Harry makes it opaque, he's blinding himself to whatever Batman is doing.

And what I've read/heard of tear gas makes me think you took a diluted does or something; more concentrated doses have made people retch.

Of course, you seem to have ignored the fact that my original analysis gave even chances to each individual in many of the scenarios. Because, in the end, neither of them has an instant-win button. :smallsigh:

[shadow_archmagi]

Which is nice but Harry has taken plenty of hits over the years. The shield is entirely entitle to stay up against a flash bang.

Err, the point is that the shield wouldn't block a flashbang because light can go through the shield. You know, because if the shield was opaque, he wouldn't be able to see out of it. But since he can see out of it, then the shield lets light through. In which case he can be blinded by a flashbang.

Likewise, he can apparently hear things that happen outside the shield, so he can hear the BANG and be deafened by it.

[Tyndmyr]

I deffinitely agree that the attacker would tend to win in an ambush situation. Both individuals benefit from prep extensively, and neither is particularly immune to ambush.

Flash and bang are both produced by normal explosions, which harry has defended himself with against via shield. Provided the shield is readied, he's not likely to be incapped via flashbang. If not, well...he'll be as inconvenienced as any normal human would be.

[Lamech]

Not just because they're hard to get a hold of (he got his hands on depleted uranium dust, for crying out loud); but because he fully expects them to blow up in his face. And with his magic's Murphyonic field, it would. He seems to say the cut-off is an arbitrary "developed after WWII". (Or was it one?) Look a bullet is basically a bit of metal on an explosive shaped so the energy is directed in the right way. That is more complex than a bomb, and I think bombs were developed before the modern bullet. And yet Harry spends significant amounts of time around these bullets, with no explosions. There is no noticeable danger of the bomb exploding.


You do remember that wizards and high-tech don't mix well, yes? And that NVGs of any stripe are decidedly high-tech. Which means it's back to the Sight, which, as was just discussed, is not an easymode/instantwin button.I'll revise that. Batmans gets his precious night vision goggles popped as soon as magic starts flying, while Dresden has the sight. Sure its not good to use a lot of, but it can be used tactically. Dresden uses it tactically. He uses it in vamp nest, surrounded by vamps against a vamp; that is going to be MUCH worse than Gotham against Bats. So Dresden will use the sight to see Bats, and Bats will suffer through the dark.



Um...Harry has to know where he's going to use the Nevernever like that. This premise says nothing about "Harry knows where Batman sleeps". Thus, that plan doesn't work. And Harry doesn't have "spirits" at his beck and call. He can use sprites, but they're only so useful. And in 5 minutes? It's useless.Your missing the point. This is Dresden's five minutes of prep time.
Step one: Grab book full of spirit names, and Bob. (He DOES have a bunch of spirits he can call up, in fact he goes through a book of them in Changes.)
Step two: Walk to a way.
Step three: Portal out to the Nevernever.
Step four: Target practice. At this point your out of batman's reach, and you can start doing the probably very annoying process of figuring out how to get him from the Nevernever.
Step five: Batman dies or Batman is captured.



And the premise doesn't encompasse "they're willing to kill tens of thousands for power". At most it's "they're willing to kill each other".You don't need to kill anyone. They even lampshaded it in dead beat IIRC. Just do it on a desert island somewhere. Or sure, it won't be anywhere near as awesome and probably a crap-ton harder to boot, but it works. (Its still out of character though.)


I'm not sure how you think he could, since "surprise attack" is kind of one of his basic tactics.Not being able to mess it up seems to agree with the whole "better not mess this up". Yes batman would win this.

[KnightDisciple]

I deffinitely agree that the attacker would tend to win in an ambush situation. Both individuals benefit from prep extensively, and neither is particularly immune to ambush.

Flash and bang are both produced by normal explosions, which harry has defended himself with against via shield. Provided the shield is readied, he's not likely to be incapped via flashbang. If not, well...he'll be as inconvenienced as any normal human would be.Flash bangs are explicitly tooled to produce a larger than normal amount of light and noise, at least compared to standard grenades of that size. That's kind of their whole intent.

And my point on flashbangs is that they'd mess with concentration, which is bad with magic that requires concentration.

[GloatingSwine]

He seems to say the cut-off is an arbitrary "developed after WWII". (Or was it one?) Look a bullet is basically a bit of metal on an explosive shaped so the energy is directed in the right way. That is more complex than a bomb, and I think bombs were developed before the modern bullet. And yet Harry spends significant amounts of time around these bullets, with no explosions. There is no noticeable danger of the bomb exploding.

No, there's a significantly greater danger of the bomb not exploding when he wants it to. That's how Harry's powers interact with complex machinery. He doesn't carry an automatic because it's more likely to jam, for instance.

Hand grenades are probably safe enough because they're relatively simple mechanical/chemical processes, but anything relying on mechanical or electronic timers would be out. Harry doesn't use hand grenades because he's got plenty of ways of blowing things up already.

[MammonAzrael]

No, there's a significantly greater danger of the bomb not exploding when he wants it to. That's how Harry's powers interact with complex machinery. He doesn't carry an automatic because it's more likely to jam, for instance.

Hand grenades are probably safe enough because they're relatively simple mechanical/chemical processes, but anything relying on mechanical or electronic timers would be out. Harry doesn't use hand grenades because he's got plenty of ways of blowing things up already.

That and he never intends to cause the collateral damage he always manages. :smalltongue:

[Lamech]

No, there's a significantly greater danger of the bomb not exploding when he wants it to. That's how Harry's powers interact with complex machinery. He doesn't carry an automatic because it's more likely to jam, for instance.

Hand grenades are probably safe enough because they're relatively simple mechanical/chemical processes, but anything relying on mechanical or electronic timers would be out. Harry doesn't use hand grenades because he's got plenty of ways of blowing things up already.
The couple times he's come into contact with a complex explosive he was either a) afraid of exploding it or b) exploded it. And yes he needs to use a simple bomb. But again we haven't seen any bullets randomly conk out on him.

[Hadessniper]

A: Start off 20 feet from each other. Not aiming to kill.

Batman opens by throwing a baterang, Dresden blocks with his shield and uses Forzare to summon a ray of force to try to knock Bats off his feet. Batman takes the hit but tumbles back to his feet quickly after and sends a flashbang. Harry uses Ventas Servitas to make the wind push the grenade off course, it explodes, but a ways away from Dresden. Harry is still dazed, in response he issues a powerful Hexus and summons his shield on full lockdown. His hex makes batman's communicator issue a very loud screech in his ear before exploding in a small shower of sparks momentarily disorienting Batman. The Hex also renders 90% of Bats gadgets utterly useless. After they both regain their composure Batman tries to close into close melee and when he closes to about 5 feet out he feels like he got hit in the face by Bane. Harry unloaded one of his nine rings. Batman at this point is next to unconscious, Harry pushes him over with either
a sleep spell or a taser spell.

B: Start off 20 feet aiming to kill.
Just about the same as before, but Harry opens with a bullet and closes with a firestorm.

C: A and B at night.
Same only when Harry Hexes Batman's night vision goggles go up in a shower of sparks too.

D: 5 minutes of prep time.
5 minutes isn't enough time for Batman to realize that all of the gadgets he relies upon will be rendered inert. Still goes to Dresden.

E: A week of prep time.
I think it could really go either way, but Harry's play ends up being finding a way to get GPD to set off the bat-signal then has Kincaid snipe Batman when he shows up on the roof.

F: Surprise attack by Batman.
Anything short of a sniper means both Bruce and Dresden are dieing. Death Curses are a bitch.

G: Surprise attack by Dresden.
He wins.

[random11]

- Regarding night vision, Harry's magic sight or the ointment that replaces it can be used to counter the disadvantage.
The ointment can easily be used with a 5 minute preparation time, and the wizard's sight can be used in an ambush.

- Batman relies so much on technology, that there is a good chance that even in an ambush, things will not go as planned for batman, ruining the advantage.
Since the conditions stated that no one will know the exact powers of the other, batman will have no real reason to avoid a close ranged encounter. In fact, he might assume it gives him an advantage.

- While tempting to use in emergencies, opening a portal to the Nevernever in a random location might be more dangerous then fighting a modern ninja...
Only in Changes, Harry became confident (and desperate) enough to try this trick, and before changes he avoided going there even when it was "safe".

- Both batman and Harry fought enemies with greater powers, including supernatural god-like ones. So at the end, the question is if the fight takes place in a batman comic, or in a Dresden book :smallsmile:

[Hadessniper]

So at the end, the question is if the fight takes place in a batman comic, or in a Dresden book :smallsmile:

Good lord I hope it takes place in a batman comic. Then Dresden is gaurenteed to come out of it intact. If Butcher ever pitted Dresden against Batman Dresden would most likely win, but he'd end up completely crippled. That man hates Harry, or rather he loves making Harry's victories as hard on him as possible.

[shadow_archmagi]

That man hates Harry, or rather he loves making Harry's victories as hard on him as possible.

What? No.

It's just that Dresden is a hardboiled detective, and hardboiled detectives's Sleuth ability works under the same principal as Flail. (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Flail_%28move%29)

It isn't that Dresden always gets the crap knocked out of him while he's trying to solve crimes, it's that he needs to be nearly dead in order to figure anything out.

[Tyndmyr]

Flash bangs are explicitly tooled to produce a larger than normal amount of light and noise, at least compared to standard grenades of that size. That's kind of their whole intent.

And my point on flashbangs is that they'd mess with concentration, which is bad with magic that requires concentration.

Harry's been subject to a few of explosions significantly larger than a standard hand grenade, and frequently engaged in significant magic directly afterward. It's not at all uncommon for him to continue after events that are quite distracting indeed, such as being shot.

Also, White Knight, page 108, explicitly states that Harry can use his shield bracelet to stop light and sound. He's using the exact same shield bracelet at the end of Small Favors, the designated point of comparison(and a fair one). So yeah, a flash bang isn't a major threat if the explosion is anticipated at all.


The Sight is not likely to come up unless the combat is extended. Harry prefers to use it as an option when nothing else is immediately, easily available. Not as a first option, though admittedly not as a last one either. He would almost certainly solve the darkness problem by adding light via pentacle, something he does routinely, and is mostly effortless for him. He's got other options as well, but I don't see the darkness as a huge factor for one side or the other. It just gives both sides more tools to play with.

[Tazar]

Honestly, I really don't think Seeing Gotham would be enough to give Harry pause. Dresden's Chicago is already pretty nasty, and he's Seen some absolutely horrific stuff and gotten through it quite nicely. And as for the Joker? Sure, soulgazing him would be...interesting, I have no doubt, but again, Harry's seen far worse. You guys don't give Mr. Dresden enough credit. :smalltongue:

Overall I give the advantage to Harry in any fight due to the shield, which is a massive advantage over anything Batman can do. In a surprise attack Bats will absolutely still knock Harry on his ass, but in any kind of head-on confrontation Batman will be entirely unable to penetrate Harry's shield and effect any real harm.

It's also important to bear in mind that Dresden is also a pretty good shot with several powerful handguns that he carries with him on a regular basis. Don't know how effective they will be against Batman (a headshot is a headshot but presumably he has bulletproof body armor), but magic is not Dresden's only tool.

[lord_khaine]

Im a bit lost regarding the version of Dresden we are discussing btw, is it after he has made his new shield, and the upgradet kinetic rings?

[Tazar]

Im a bit lost regarding the version of Dresden we are discussing btw, is it after he has made his new shield, and the upgradet kinetic rings?

I would imagine it would be the "current" Dresden, the one we see in Changes.

RE: a week's preparation-Do bear in mind that Batman will not be able to utilize any technologically complex devices effectively, as Dresden can short them out effortlessly at will.

[lord_khaine]

I would imagine it would be the "current" Dresden, the one we see in Changes.

No, the OP was smart enough to speficy Dresden at the end of Small favor :smallsmile:

Since Dresden in Changes goes from being just a decently powerfull wizard, to a force of nature that would give a lot of the JLA members a run for their money in a straight up fight, to a ghost.

But now that i think about it, Small favor is after he made his improved rings, in that case i dont think Batman really has much of a chance in a direct fight, as the rings are an automatical knockout that doesnt miss, and cant be dodget.

[JabberwockySupafly]

I've noticed a slight issue with the arguments presented here. While I don't know much about Dresden, I do know some stuff about Batsy. Everyone keeps saying "Dresden can counter all of Batman's gadgets." "Batman's gadgets are useless." Gadgets gadgets blah blah gadgets"...


Batman doesn't actually use a lot of gadgets. The man's been trained in some of the most powerful forms of stealth and martial arts in the world. He's a master at hand-to-hand, melee, and ranged combat as well as stealth tactics and, if he were willing to take a life, assassination. He only breaks out the gadgets on foes who he absolutely has to. His most common "gadgets" are smoke/gas bombs, batarangs and the occassional gas mask - none of which are really "technology" in the electronic sense. The majority of his high tech is recon and research gear (super computers, bugs, etc). He doesn't actually use night vision in combat unless he absolutely has to, because he's been trained to compensate the loss of one sense with his other 4, due to, you know, all that training in being The G-D Batman.

Now, I can't really say who would win because I don't know nearly enough about the Dresden "Mythos" to have equal observation, but I just wanted to say I really think people are placing too much emphasis on Bruce's tech and how they all seem to be claiming he'd be naked and defenseless without it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Honestly, I really don't think Seeing Gotham would be enough to give Harry pause. Dresden's Chicago is already pretty nasty, and he's Seen some absolutely horrific stuff and gotten through it quite nicely. And as for the Joker? Sure, soulgazing him would be...interesting, I have no doubt, but again, Harry's seen far worse. You guys don't give Mr. Dresden enough credit. :smalltongue:

The Joker is hardly Shagnasty or a Faerie Queen (And Harry probably saw He Who Walks Behind too)

Actually we know what soulgazing the Joker is like because its been done. A nice pleasant and utterly normal core surrounded by utter twisting. Its tragic but not terribly madness inducing next to things literally beyond mortality.


Overall I give the advantage to Harry in any fight due to the shield, which is a massive advantage over anything Batman can do. In a surprise attack Bats will absolutely still knock Harry on his ass, but in any kind of head-on confrontation Batman will be entirely unable to penetrate Harry's shield and effect any real harm.

It's also important to bear in mind that Dresden is also a pretty good shot with several powerful handguns that he carries with him on a regular basis. Don't know how effective they will be against Batman (a headshot is a headshot but presumably he has bulletproof body armor), but magic is not Dresden's only tool.

Bats wins only by starting things in melee and ending it before Harry thinks to shoot his rings off. Namely by whacking Dresden in the back of the head after sneaking up on him from behind. Within his abilities, but makes assumptions.

However Harry's guns aren't going to do anything, Harry's not a trick shooter to do something like shoot for the chin. Which is about the only place it will work against the Bat-suit.

[Tazar]

I've noticed a slight issue with the arguments presented here. While I don't know much about Dresden, I do know some stuff about Batsy. Everyone keeps saying "Dresden can counter all of Batman's gadgets." "Batman's gadgets are useless." Gadgets gadgets blah blah gadgets"...


Batman doesn't actually use a lot of gadgets. The man's been trained in some of the most powerful forms of stealth and martial arts in the world. He's a master at hand-to-hand, melee, and ranged combat as well as stealth tactics and, if he were willing to take a life, assassination. He only breaks out the gadgets on foes who he absolutely has to. His most common "gadgets" are smoke/gas bombs, batarangs and the occassional gas mask - none of which are really "technology" in the electronic sense. The majority of his high tech is recon and research gear (super computers, bugs, etc). He doesn't actually use night vision in combat unless he absolutely has to, because he's been trained to compensate the loss of one sense with his other 4, due to, you know, all that training in being The G-D Batman.

Now, I can't really say who would win because I don't know nearly enough about the Dresden "Mythos" to have equal observation, but I just wanted to say I really think people are placing too much emphasis on Bruce's tech and how they all seem to be claiming he'd be naked and defenseless without it.

Batman's absolutely got plenty of stuff left up his sleeve without resorting to high-tech tricks. Just pointing out that Dresden's ability to short out anything fancy is rather important, as it limits what Batman can do with a week's preparation as well as his ability to fight at nighttime (not too much, because Bats obviously can fight at night fine without nightvision, but still). Batman can't stop Dresden's potions and rings from working, but Dresden can effectively shut down some of the stronger stuff Batman might be able to use.

If we're pinning down Dresden to a particular power standard, oughtn't we decide on a specific power level for Batman as well? I don't really read his comics too often but, as a comic book character, I imagine his abilities vary quite widely depending on what source is being drawn upon as reference.

[Tyndmyr]

I've noticed a slight issue with the arguments presented here. While I don't know much about Dresden, I do know some stuff about Batsy. Everyone keeps saying "Dresden can counter all of Batman's gadgets." "Batman's gadgets are useless." Gadgets gadgets blah blah gadgets"...

That's because he needs gadgets to even the playing field. Dresden can pull up a shield that stops essentially anything a non-magical person can bust out with for...long enough for the fight to be over. He's also able to toss off a blast of fire that can blow the side of a building off and toss Batman's smoking corpse a few blocks. Then drop a car on him, if he feels like it. Or just hurl the aforementioned unblockable force attacks that'll shatter his bones. Meh.

Bats isn't going to win this one in a straight up, fair duel. He NEEDS to rely on gadgets, or ambushing, etc.


Batman doesn't actually use a lot of gadgets. The man's been trained in some of the most powerful forms of stealth and martial arts in the world. He's a master at hand-to-hand, melee, and ranged combat as well as stealth tactics and, if he were willing to take a life, assassination.

Assassination would work if he were willing to do it. A sniper bullet from a thousand yards is established to be a pretty good way to eliminate a wizard, generally speaking. However, it wouldn't happen for the same reason that Harry likely would only incapacitate Bats. Neither of them are murderers. Oh, sure, Harry has no compunction against killing, when necessary, but I don't see Batman doing anything evil enough to warrant it getting to that level.


He only breaks out the gadgets on foes who he absolutely has to. His most common "gadgets" are smoke/gas bombs, batarangs and the occassional gas mask - none of which are really "technology" in the electronic sense. The majority of his high tech is recon and research gear (super computers, bugs, etc). He doesn't actually use night vision in combat unless he absolutely has to, because he's been trained to compensate the loss of one sense with his other 4, due to, you know, all that training in being The G-D Batman.

Smoke is useful for obscuring, absolutely. Dresden can circumvent it using his Sight, but he doesn't like to. That said, Dresden's main attacks are air and fire based. Getting rid of smoke/gas isn't that problematic when you control wind.

Batarangs are also not going to be subject to the tech effect(ignoring stupidly complicated bat-whatever stuff). However, as they rely on actually hitting things, the usual shield sorta stops this.

Research gear is mostly irrelevant here. Harry's in the phone book. Under Wizard. I suspect that finding him is going to be extremely easy.

Night vision is handy because it's a fairly obvious time to ambush Dresden. It's the easiest way to take him down, really. Well, that, or take hostages he cares about, and that really isn't the superhero style.


Now, I can't really say who would win because I don't know nearly enough about the Dresden "Mythos" to have equal observation, but I just wanted to say I really think people are placing too much emphasis on Bruce's tech and how they all seem to be claiming he'd be naked and defenseless without it.

In this particular instance...he would be. Batman lacks actual powers. Sure, he'd beat the living bejezus out of Harry in a boxing match, but that's just not going to happen. The only way for Batman to really win this is to walk up while Harry's concentrating on something else, and punch him in the back of the head. Done deal, unless he gets sensed coming.

Once the magic comes out, Batman just has nothing to counter it.

[Tazar]

Even if they're fighting to kill, Batman will not use a gun. He doesn't use guns (as far as I'm aware, anyways; if I'm wrong, correct me).

So a sniper bullet from a thousand yards isn't really going to be an issue.

[GloatingSwine]

Once the magic comes out, Batman just has nothing to counter it.

The trouble is, he almost certainly does. Batman has a plan to disable every single Justice League member in case they go bad. That means he already has several plans on hand to counter magic users like Zatanna or Dr. Fate.

[random11]

I'm interested about the option with the week of preparations.

Because the OP's rules also said that they only have general information (wizard and modern ninja), but not specific abilities and powers, Dresden has many advantages.

The first thing that comes in mind when thinking "ninja" is "sneak attack". So it is likely that Harry will prepare potions and items to get some warning as well as improved senses.
Batman on the other hand, Knows only "wizard", which is WAY too general. He might use fire resistant gear (which will greatly help), but there is not much he can prepare for the kinetic attacks, as well as he doesn't know abut Harry's Hexing powers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of Batman's tactics is to prepare and invade the target's home, where he feels safe.
He cannot however do anything to prepare himself against the warding runes, and that's if he is lucky and Mouse isn't at home.

Harry cannot use the same tactic since he lacks information and the bat cave is not in the phone book, on the other hand, he does have connections who can supply him with information (I'll assume help can be used for information only).
Even if Harry does not use the high-cost connections like favors from summer/winter, and even his regular friends like the wolfs and "pizza army" will not be able to help, he still has the Archive.
If Harry does find the bat cave, every automatic defense can be easily hexed.

[Morph Bark]

the "batman goes to see a DCU mage for advice and tactics" is why he ends up getting beat to crap with 5 minutes of prep and wins with a week. Assume that A or C happens and bats loses, the next thing he does, assuming he gets away is contacts one of the many mages he has on speed dial, at least one of them would have some mystic geegaw bats could use to even the odds. This is barring Bats finding out that Harry Dresden is in the phone book under wizards and simply sending another person to purchase something directly from him to do the job.

Better yet: Batman hires Harry to help him with this one pesky wizard... :smallamused:

[Eldan]

Hmm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with a week of preparation, can't Harry just put some Thaumaturgy on Batman and kill him from a distance? Something like the Heart Exploding Curse, maybe. Or an Entropy Curse. Or anything else he can think of, really. He's seen plenty of deadly things before that work from miles away, and with Bob's help, he can probably copy them pretty easily.

All of this under the assumption that he would kill without remorse and not fear the Wardens, of course.

[random11]

Hmm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with a week of preparation, can't Harry just put some Thaumaturgy on Batman and kill him from a distance? Something like the Heart Exploding Curse, maybe. Or an Entropy Curse. Or anything else he can think of, really. He's seen plenty of deadly things before that work from miles away, and with Bob's help, he can probably copy them pretty easily.

All of this under the assumption that he would kill without remorse and not fear the Wardens, of course.

Thaumaturgy requires blood or hair.
One week of just preparations is not enough to get it.

Besides, Harry will just not go for this tactic.

[GloatingSwine]

Better yet: Batman hires Harry to help him with this one pesky wizard... :smallamused:

Which would, of course, just be a setup so Zatanna could incapacitate Harry whilst Bats takes him out.

[random11]

The trouble is, he almost certainly does. Batman has a plan to disable every single Justice League member in case they go bad. That means he already has several plans on hand to counter magic users like Zatanna or Dr. Fate.

That's because he had a lot of time to prepare, and knows the people and their capabilities and weaknesses.

Even with contacts and information, in the books most people who don't know Harry personally misjudge his abilities and intentions.

[Eldan]

Thaumaturgy requires blood or hair.
One week of just preparations is not enough to get it.

Besides, Harry will just not go for this tactic.

True, he'd have to get a bit creative to get a part of Batman. But it doesn't have to be blood or hair. Just a link that's sufficiently close.

And if Harry doesn't go for that, then Batman wouldn't go for a kill.

[Fan]

Thaumaturgy requires blood or hair.
One week of just preparations is not enough to get it.

Besides, Harry will just not go for this tactic.


Step 1: 1 Day divination to get Batman's real identity (depending on canon, may not be necessary.)

Step 2: Hire Harlot to have sex with billionare, have her steal 1 hair from his hairbrush. Will not be noticed. Alternatively, raid his barber's trash.

Step 3: Begin ritual

Step 4: ????

Step 5: PROFIT!

[Eldan]

Or that. The question, of course, is how aware Batman is of Thaumaturgy to begin with. If Magic-capable Justice League members are around and their magic is more or less similar to White Council magic, he'd probably know the basics and be protective of his hair. Albert can probably cut it for him.

[Tyndmyr]

Harry deciding to just kill people with thaumaturgy is like batman deciding to kill harry with a sniper rifle. Its blatantly out of character.

[Eldan]

Harry deciding to just kill people with thaumaturgy is like batman deciding to kill harry with a sniper rifle. Its blatantly out of character.

It is, and I admitted as much. But since we are also assuming that Batman is willing to kill Harry, I assumed some flexibility.

[Tiki Snakes]

Harry deciding to just kill people with thaumaturgy is like batman deciding to kill harry with a sniper rifle. Its blatantly out of character.

I'm pretty sure he picks up a Sniper Rifle for some reason in the old Dark Knight book, so as long as we are assuming out-of-character enough to kill, then it's actually less out of character to use a rifle?

[Tazar]

Harry's control over thaumaturgy isn't refined enough to do something like a heart explosion, I believe. He specializes in big smashy evocations, not the subtle stuff like that. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain he addressed that in the first book.

Hasn't Batman killed people in the comics before? In any case, I seriously doubt he would use guns even in a deathmatch. They aren't what he specializes in or is comfortable with.

It's also all well and good to say "Batman has plans for fighting magic users", but that really doesn't mean much. Pretty much all of Harry's enemies have had plans for fighting him, and that doesn't work out too hot for them. Just because a plan exists doesn't mean that it's good, or will even work.

[lord_khaine]

Actualy, Harry's specialty (besides creating havok and destruction) lies in Thaumaturgy.

[Tazar]

Really? I could have sworn that he told Murphy he didn't have the kind of precise control required to bust somebody's heart like that.

Unless he's gotten much better at the point he builds Little Chicago?

[paddyfool]

Even if they're fighting to kill, Batman will not use a gun. He doesn't use guns (as far as I'm aware, anyways; if I'm wrong, correct me).

So a sniper bullet from a thousand yards isn't really going to be an issue.

Yeah, for the purposes of this scenario, he doesn't use guns. The last, and very nearly the only, time he did so in the comics it was in response to a relatively major end-of-the-world scenario:

A partially-successful assassination attempt on Darkseid during the conclusion to Final Crisis, using the same bullet that Darkseid's minions had used to kill Darkseid's son, Orion.

Overall... it does look like Batman would have trouble here. He doesn't really have any arcanists to speak of in his own rogue's gallery, generally only being paired up against them while part of a larger team. About the closest he gets is the odd dust-up with Etrigan.

[Lamech]

Really? I could have sworn that he told Murphy he didn't have the kind of precise control required to bust somebody's heart like that.

Unless he's gotten much better at the point he builds Little Chicago?

I thought he said he didn't quite have the power to pull it off unless he was really angry. Although he has probably gotten stronger at this point. Didn't he nom a sorcerer-ghost? (Although I wasn't clear if he kept the power... at least we never see him using the stolen spells again.) And he got soulfire and generic power creep.

[Mewtarthio]

Regardless, it's black magic, and it's pretty nasty even for that. If Batman isn't using guns, then Harry isn't ripping out his heart.

[lord_khaine]

Harry's power hasnt grown that much, but his fine control has by leaps and bounds.

And while he wouldnt use black magic to kill Batman, then he doesnt need to do to totaly screw him over though ritual magic, like how he bound the Loup garou.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Batman has defeated supernatural forces like wizards before. If they actually met and fought in a comic, Dresden would put up his magic shield. Then batman would throw a batarang made from some magical metal that could penetrate the shield.

Something he keeps in his belt just in case... like the kryptonite.


Even with contacts and information, in the books most people who don't know Harry personally misjudge his abilities and intentions.
Batman isn't most people.


but there is not much he can prepare for the kinetic attacks,
Body armor, a bullet is a very powerful kinetic attack and batman prepares for that everyday.
Hexes have the problem that they either work because the story demands it, or fail because the targets will is just to strong.

[Tyndmyr]

Body armor, a bullet is a very powerful kinetic attack and batman prepares for that everyday.
Hexes have the problem that they either work because the story demands it, or fail because the targets will is just to strong.

The rings aren't stopped by will...they are sometimes stopped by magical defenses, though. And while those are powered by will....it doesn't imply that any strong willed person can stop them. You need the magic.

[Eldan]

Harry said that he lacked fine control in Evocation, IIRC. His evocation is sloppy, so it uses much more power than strictly necessary and tends to blow up more than it needs to.

[Lord Loss]

Depends on what novel we're talking about. The one in Storm Front would probably be near even on power level with Batman. Later on in the series, though batman would get curbstomped. He relies on preparation and knowledge of his foe's powers, which is something he wouldn't have in this situation.

Without prep time Dresden gets Fireball, Kinetic Energy rings, Soulfire/Hellfire (depending on the novel) and many other ablities.

With prep time?

Veils, Nevernever and callling on allies like Mab gets thrown into the mix. .

Meanwhile, Batman is a guy in a suit. A genius-level intellect in a suit that can withstand a lot of abuse, mind, but still a guy in a suit.

[BRC]

Here's the thing about Wizards, especially ones like Harry. They can be incredibly dangerous, unleashing a truly massive amount of firepower and throwing up powerful defenses, but they're not any more durable than a normal human.
Of course, you could say the same thing about a man with a gun. And Batman has done just fine against those.

If Harry see's Bats coming he throws up his shield and starts slinging magic, and the best Batman can hope for is to get away alive.

Which is why Batman wouldn't let Harry see him coming. If he could sneak up on him (Which he could easily do unless Harry has Mouse with him), he could probably drop him in half a second of melee (Harry's been hit pretty hard before, but he's human), or with some sort of ranged attack.

Which is of course assuming that Harry, who is a comic book geek IIRC, doesn't spend five minutes freaking out when he sees Batman, then asks for an autograph.

[Tyndmyr]

Here's the thing about Wizards, especially ones like Harry. They can be incredibly dangerous, unleashing a truly massive amount of firepower and throwing up powerful defenses, but they're not any more durable than a normal human.
Of course, you could say the same thing about a man with a gun. And Batman has done just fine against those.

If Harry see's Bats coming he throws up his shield and starts slinging magic, and the best Batman can hope for is to get away alive.

Which is why Batman wouldn't let Harry see him coming. If he could sneak up on him (Which he could easily do unless Harry has Mouse with him), he could probably drop him in half a second of melee (Harry's been hit pretty hard before, but he's human), or with some sort of ranged attack.

Yeah, if he's alone and focused on something else, Harry can get ambushed and knocked out. It's happened before, and it fits into Bat's MO pretty solidly. That nearly guarantees the win for Bats in the ambush scenario.


Which is of course assuming that Harry, who is a comic book geek IIRC, doesn't spend five minutes freaking out when he sees Batman, then asks for an autograph.

Actually, Im a bit intrigued at the idea of what would cause them to fight. Given that Chicago basically is Gotham City, you've got the right environment for them to bump into each other...Im thinking the likeliest scenario is a competition in goals. Especially if Dresden is neck deep in working with bad guys to stop something worse. Like...say....Marcone. That could do it.

[Mewtarthio]

Actually, Im a bit intrigued at the idea of what would cause them to fight. Given that Chicago basically is Gotham City, you've got the right environment for them to bump into each other...Im thinking the likeliest scenario is a competition in goals. Especially if Dresden is neck deep in working with bad guys to stop something worse. Like...say....Marcone. That could do it.

Harry is contracted to protect someone from a strange humanoid that dresses like a bat, one who cloaks himself in fear and darkness. Batman gets word that there is a powerful and dangerous wizard in town, one who has lots of connections with the darkest of dark supernatural entities and who has destabilized the entire magical community into a brutal, violent war.

[Hadessniper]

Hexes have the problem that they either work because the story demands it, or fail because the targets will is just to strong.

Hexes within the context of the Dresdenverse refer to the ability of wizards to intentionally cause technology to fail. It works all of the time, magic exudes a sort of anti-tech field that causes tech to break unintentionally, if a wizard puts the least bit of focus into trying to disrupt tech just about anything designed after WWII breaks down.

[Eldan]

Veils, Nevernever and callling on allies like Mab gets thrown into the mix. .
.

If allies can be called, Batman gets Superman.

[Hadessniper]

If allies can be called, Batman gets Superman.

Not that it would help him all that much, one of Superman's weaknesses is magic. Although most of Dresden's usual tricks wouldn't be that effective, McCoy could drop Supes without much effort.

[lord_khaine]

The problem is that Mab isnt an ally, though at the same time, she is on a power level that would take the entire Justice league to handle.

[Eldan]

Not that it would help him all that much, one of Superman's weaknesses is magic. Although most of Dresden's usual tricks wouldn't be that effective, McCoy could drop Supes without much effort.

What I'm actually saying is that bringing in allies gets silly fast.

And the point of supes would be that he'd probably could just fly in and disarm and/or kill Harry before he'd notice anything.

[random11]

Actually, Im a bit intrigued at the idea of what would cause them to fight. Given that Chicago basically is Gotham City, you've got the right environment for them to bump into each other...Im thinking the likeliest scenario is a competition in goals. Especially if Dresden is neck deep in working with bad guys to stop something worse. Like...say....Marcone. That could do it.

That makes me think of another fight, Marcone vs. the Joker.

[Hadessniper]

That makes me think of another fight, Marcone vs. the Joker.

Oh Marcone would have the Joker assassinated so fast it wouldn't even be funny.

[random11]

Oh Marcone would have the Joker assassinated so fast it wouldn't even be funny.

I'm not so sure about that.

In Chicago? Certainly.
But pretend the fight takes place in "Chicagothem city", half of it is under Marcone's control, and the other half is under the Joker's chaotic influence.

Both use underlings a lot more than frontal assault, both are very intelligent masterminds, cruel and ruthless, and both have heavy cannons as connections and powerful more-or-less allies they can use.
Other than that, they are completely different.

The Joker wouldn't mind throwing away underlings to unsettle Marcone, while Marcone will feel obligated to protect and avenge the ones who work for him.
Marcone will try to protect the city and get it under his control, while the Joker wouldn't mind if half the city explodes if that's part of his plan.

That difference is not necessarily a strength or a weakness, but it will make the fight interesting.

[lord_khaine]

Marcone would feed Batman hints about the Joker until he caught him, then have him suffer an accident on the way to court/Arkham.

[Tyndmyr]

Yup. Marcone is much, much better at working with others. He'll quickly be seen as the lesser evil by Team Good.

[GloatingSwine]

Harry said that he lacked fine control in Evocation, IIRC. His evocation is sloppy, so it uses much more power than strictly necessary and tends to blow up more than it needs to.

That's more of a general principle. Harry lacks fine control and makes up for it with brute force.

Nevertheless, Harry wouldn't use magic to kill Batman, because if he did the White Council would tear him an entire set of new *******s in an abruptly terminal fashion.

[random11]

Yup. Marcone is much, much better at working with others. He'll quickly be seen as the lesser evil by Team Good.

Team Evil on the other hand, including the black council and the Denarii will favor the Joker.
The red court of vampires will most likely favor the chaos of the Joker on the protective order of marcone.

The white council will probably not support either of them as long as no rules of magic are broken. Not many individual wizards will be convinced to help Marcone even if he is the lesser evil.

The white court of vampires will probably favor the winner or play both sides.

if summer/winter joins one side, the other will balance it with the other side.

I'd say both sides can gather strong allies.
The Joker might be psychotic, but he does get many temporary allies in his stories.

[Tyndmyr]

Evil in the Dresden 'verse is generally ordered. Lawful evil, for lack of a better term. Well, at least neutral. They're in it for themselves, generally speaking, but the dangerous things out there use long term plans, strategy, and carefully calculated moves.

The joker is the living definition of chaotic evil. He doesn't work well with people. He doesn't work well for people. He's not a great guy to work for, either. Any teamup with the joker, in any capacity, is going to be fairly short lived, and the joker isn't terribly good at pursuing goals other than Batman for any length of time.

In short, he's not at all the type of person that Dresden power blocks are going to play with. And without magic and his penchant for drawing lots of attention, he frankly isn't going to last long in the Dresden world.

Summer/winter balance each other. They are not constrained to balance everything else.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Batman has defeated supernatural forces like wizards before. If they actually met and fought in a comic, Dresden would put up his magic shield. Then batman would throw a batarang made from some magical metal that could penetrate the shield.

Please give the situation where Bats has defeated a wizard and how that solution would be useful against Harry. What is the meat of Bat's is genius counter-plan. Someone like Zatanna is on a short list of people that have actually beaten Batman.

The problem is Harry doesn't have a kryptonite because his magic only plays fast and loose with any of its nominal rules. He actually doesn't need to speak, or use his tools, its just much easer and more controlled. Add Soulfire to the equation and those issues are vastly reduced. Thus far the only real counter magics are also magic, most of them personal.

Bats can't acquire a Dresdenite Batarang because there isn't some general Dresdenite to acquire. If it existed the White Council would have ceased to exists with whatever it was being spammed by their many enemies long ago.

Bats has to go to a DCU character he's on good terms with and acquire something. And if we bring in allies like that we rapidly get to Harry becoming something like say a Winter Knight capable of bringing down a horde of vampires, or on good terms with the All-Father. Or the ultimate potential ally... Karrin Murphy, Knight of the Cross.

(Or just doing a little looting from the natural history museum...)


Body armor, a bullet is a very powerful kinetic attack and batman prepares for that everyday.
Hexes have the problem that they either work because the story demands it, or fail because the targets will is just to strong.

Body armor will keep Bats in better shape when he's smacked into the wall, but Harry isn't firing magic bullets he's hitting you with the magical equivalent of a car. Bats simply doesn't have the mass to stop from being thrown around like the normal-weight human he is. So Force Rings combed into Blasting Rod equals roast detective. Also force impact ultimately can't be stopped, kinetic energy has to go somewhere, you shoot Batman and it hits his armor he still got punched in the gut and has a nice bruise for it

[random11]

Evil in the Dresden 'verse is generally ordered. Lawful evil, for lack of a better term. Well, at least neutral. They're in it for themselves, generally speaking, but the dangerous things out there use long term plans, strategy, and carefully calculated moves.


But the same thing can be said about the good guys.
In "Samll Favour", When Marconi had a battle with the Denarii and nearly died, I don't remember many from "team good" rushing to his aid, despite clearly being the lesser evil and much more dependable.

As for the evil groups from the Dresden universe, I'm tot so sure about the black council since they are indeed closer to neutral evil, but they might use the Joker for their needs as much as he will use them.
They might also join Marcone, or just ignore this battle, so let's remove them from the list.
I'll also remove summer and winter. They probably won't care anyway.

The Denarii would LOVE to work with the joker. His plans aren't much different than the one they had with the plague. Chaos is their goal, at least a short term goal.
They will most likely offer him a coin, but it's hard to predict if he will accept it.

And like I mentioned before, The red (and black) vampire court will most likely willingly join the Joker. They also benefit from chaos and they will not be afraid of the Joker betraying them.



The joker is the living definition of chaotic evil. He doesn't work well with people. He doesn't work well for people. He's not a great guy to work for, either. Any teamup with the joker, in any capacity, is going to be fairly short lived, and the joker isn't terribly good at pursuing goals other than Batman for any length of time.

In short, he's not at all the type of person that Dresden power blocks are going to play with. And without magic and his penchant for drawing lots of attention, he frankly isn't going to last long in the Dresden world.


I agree that he is completely chaotic and undependable.
But for some reason, he does manage to find allies in the comics, and since the fight is not in the Dresden world, but in a half Chicago half Gothem, he will get allies in his usual ways (whatever they are) besides the ones he can get from the Dresden world.

With the support from the vampire courts and the Denarii, as well as hired mercenaries with magical knowledge, the Joker will not be without magic.

[Tyndmyr]

White court wouldn't touch the Joker. They work through intrigues, temptations, and devious, circuitous plans. Crazy violent is anathema to them.

The red couurt might. But, only if they made him one of them, or if he worked for them(not typical Joker style). They're terribly bad at working for others, and not really very good at working with them. So, he can possibly become a crazy vampire. Annoying, but still cannon fodder in a magical world.

Black court is his best bet. They're closest to him in outlook, but there are extremely few of them, and they don't tend to care much about mortals, so again, his only real chance is to be turned. They are far, far too arrogant to just join up with the joker. He's a crazy mortal who killed a few of his own kind. They are nigh-eternal bringers of death. He's just food that acts a bit funny.

Honestly, I see Summer/Winter as an orthagonal fight. They don't really care which side wins, and only get involved where it profits them, and in tangential ways. Making deals, keeping promises, etc. They're not particularly helpful even when they do give advice, oftentimes.

[Hadessniper]

I don't think a fight between the Joker and Marcone would last long enough for alliances to be brought into it. The first notion the Joker would get that Marcone had a problem with him would be a bullet in the brain or a shiv in the liver.

If the Joker showed up close to any of Marcone's territory and started doing his thing Marcone wouldn't openly go to war with him, he would send Hendricks or Guard with a sniper rifle to end him quickly. If they did somehow get into a protracted battle the Joker's first instinct would be to toy with him and Marcone's would be to kill the Joker as quickly as possible.

[Tazar]

Batman has defeated supernatural forces like wizards before. If they actually met and fought in a comic, Dresden would put up his magic shield. Then batman would throw a batarang made from some magical metal that could penetrate the shield.

Something he keeps in his belt just in case... like the kryptonite.


I'm sorry, but this is simply not a valid argument. Does such a metal exist in the DC-verse? Is Batman demonstrably able to obtain it, if it even does exist? Would he even know about that metal?
Simply saying "he's the [expletive deleted] Batman and thus he automatically has whatever tool he needs to win" is not an argument, it's baseless oneupmanship.

There's no way any of the major evils in the Dresden universe would ever work with the Joker. He's far too nutty and self-destructive, and lacks any real power. The Denarians seek out powerful, clever, and cunning individuals, not raving loonies.

Similarly, what would be the incentive for the Vampire Courts to work with the Joker? What could he possibly offer them that they don't have already? The Vampire Counts wouldn't "join" the Joker, they are massively powerful international organizations with thousands of members and incredible amounts of resources. He's a speck on the wall compared to them. They took on the global alliance of the strongest magic-users in existence and were winning. What could a psychopath in a clown costume possibly offer them? :smalltongue:

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm sorry, but this is simply not a valid argument. Does such a metal exist in the DC-verse? Is Batman demonstrably able to obtain it, if it even does exist? Would he even know about that metal?

Simply saying "he's the [expletive deleted] Batman and thus he automatically has whatever tool he needs to win" is not an argument, it's baseless oneupmanship.

You may have a point, to some degree.
But baseless one-upmanship is how DC works! :P

[BRC]

The Joker vs Marcone would be interesting, albeit brief. It would likely end with the Joker dead from a sniper round The Joker may be a genius and a psychopathic murderer, but in the end he's human, and Marcone would have no problem with killing him (or having him killed). In a straight-up fight, Gard could probably take the Joker, as could Hendricks (The man may be big, but he's not JUST big). Heck, Marcone has shown himself to be more than competent in a fight, and he wouldn't hold back. He would just put a bullet through the Joker's eyes.

That said, while there is no anti-magic metal, there are ways Batman could short out harry's power. I can think of two methods that work within the Dresdenverse rules that Batman could learn about and have easy access too.
1: A Circle. The Denarians did something like this on a large scale. Any human can draw a chalk circle then, with a drop of blood and an effort of will, close it. This throws up a barrier that Magic cannot cross. For spellcasters, the effect is similar to sealing an airtight room, their ability to cast magic is limited ,as they can only draw power from the area within the circle. When the Denarian's did it, they encircled the entire Shedd aquarium, and Harry could only cast a few minor spells. if Batman was able to lure Harry into, say, a small apartment, then throw up a circle, he could rob Harry of his ability to do major magic.
Of course, the circle only blocks magic. Anything physical can still pass through, and in fact doing so breaks the circle. So Batman would have to take Harry out before he finds his way to the edge of the circle and escapes.

2: Running Water. This hasn't really come up much, but apparently running water, and lots of it, can short out Magic. I'm not sure of the exact rules here, but I can imagine that if Batman hit harry with something like a fire hose he could prevent him from doing magic.

As far as I can tell, neither of these tricks are especially obscure knowledge in the supernatural community. If we take away Batman's ability to learn about things like this, we take away a major aspect of his effectiveness.

[kpenguin]

Well, there's Nth metal, which in some continuities is used as a "anti-magic" metal thing. In the DCAU, its anti-magic properties are strong enough to break down barriers made by Earth's premier mage (Doctor Fate) and drive off/kill Lovecraftian entities.

[Hadessniper]

The problem of course is that magic in the DCU and magic in the Dresden Files are completely different. I'd say for the fight to be even remotely fair you would have to go with the Dresden rules on magic. Not only does the character of Harry Dresden rely on it, but the DF magic has defined rules whereas unless I'm mistaken the DCU magic is whatever the writers want it to be at the moment.

[Tazar]

Well, there's Nth metal, which in some continuities is used as a "anti-magic" metal thing. In the DCAU, its anti-magic properties are strong enough to break down barriers made by Earth's premier mage (Doctor Fate) and drive off/kill Lovecraftian entities.

A quick perusal of this material's Wikipedia and DC wiki page makes no mention of Batman possessing the means to obtain such material, except in one of the animated shows. As such, unless we are defining this Batman as the incarnation from that animated show, it seems a non-issue. Furthermore, abilities that are magic in the Dresdenverse are "non-magical" superpowers in DCU and vice-versa; as such, it's extremely difficult to establish a basis for comparison.

A circle would likely be Batman's best defense; however, it will be quite difficult for him to create a coherent circle capable of fully entrapping Harry. The best efforts of a group of centuries-old fallen angels managed to to encompass an entire aquarium; Bats will be limited to smaller circles. Furthermore, he must take care to ensure that Dresden cannot fire bullets or hurl objects through the circle's perimeter, breaking it.

Circles would certainly be Batman's major available trap; likewise, wards will do the same for Harry. Batman has no way of detecting them and they can be quite lethal. However, Batman's non-traditional methods of entry will likely serve him in good stead here.

[Force]

There's no way any of the major evils in the Dresden universe would ever work with the Joker. He's far too nutty and self-destructive, and lacks any real power. The Denarians seek out powerful, clever, and cunning individuals, not raving loonies.


You're confusing Nicodemus with the Denarians as a whole-- Tessa takes whoever she thinks will work with her, though even she might hesitate at taking someone as psychotic as the Joker for a Denarian host. Nicodemus might or might not... if he did, it would be part of a deeply laid plan/Xanatos Gambit that would end up with the Joker de-coined and Nicodemus the better off for the gambit, as usual.

On that score, could a Denarian influence or control the Joker? He's not necessarily strong-willed, but does crazy substitute for willpower?

[Tyndmyr]

The only real lethal item in the Dresden verse is Mordite, but even that can be handled by A. shields, and B. Not touching it. And it's extremely rare, lethal crap from the Nevernever, so you're not getting it in the first place without magic. There's no particular reason that Batman would have access to it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well, there's Nth metal, which in some continuities is used as a "anti-magic" metal thing. In the DCAU, its anti-magic properties are strong enough to break down barriers made by Earth's premier mage (Doctor Fate) and drive off/kill Lovecraftian entities.

Not "some" I'm afraid. The DCAU only. That property has yet to migrate to the DCU

And in the DCAU it would still largely come down to borrowing from an ally. In which yeah DCAU Hawkgirl versus Harry is pretty lopsided in her favor.


A circle would likely be Batman's best defense; however, it will be quite difficult for him to create a coherent circle capable of fully entrapping Harry. The best efforts of a group of centuries-old fallen angels managed to to encompass an entire aquarium; Bats will be limited to smaller circles. Furthermore, he must take care to ensure that Dresden cannot fire bullets or hurl objects through the circle's perimeter, breaking it.

Circles would certainly be Batman's major available trap; likewise, wards will do the same for Harry. Batman has no way of detecting them and they can be quite lethal. However, Batman's non-traditional methods of entry will likely serve him in good stead here.

Circles don't work like that. Harry is perfectly entitled to walk right out of it. He's human not a thing out of the Nevernever. At least the sort of simple circle Bats would be able to pull off won't be confining Harry measely mortal aspect. And will be quite small because Bats is not a wizard.

For that matter given that they need time to activate, the sort of circle Bats would be able to pull leaves him a sitting duck, immobilized inside his circle while Harry aims his gun.

[Tazar]

You're confusing Nicodemus with the Denarians as a whole-- Tessa takes whoever she thinks will work with her, though even she might hesitate at taking someone as psychotic as the Joker for a Denarian host. Nicodemus might or might not... if he did, it would be part of a deeply laid plan/Xanatos Gambit that would end up with the Joker de-coined and Nicodemus the better off for the gambit, as usual.

On that score, could a Denarian influence or control the Joker? He's not necessarily strong-willed, but does crazy substitute for willpower?

It's honestly hard to judge just how strong-willed the Joker is, I think. He's certainly a very driven individual, but the whole insanity thing kinda gets in the way. :smalltongue: Still, I'd be inclined to think he'd hold up well against influence, but he seems like the kinda guy who would snatch a coin up in a heartbeat if offered one.

RE: the Joker as an ally; I maintain my belief that the Denarians would not work with him simply because he has nothing to offer. He's quite plainly incredibly unstable and is simply a normal human with a penchant for elaborate schemes. Furthermore, he gets his face knocked in by Batman on a regular basis. He brings nothing to the table.

[kpenguin]

Joker did sell his soul for a pack of cigars.

Cubans, though. good quailty.

[BRC]

Concerning the Circle: The Circle itself requires no magical talent. Butters was able to pull one up, and he's about as vanilla a human as you can get. A Smaller circle is actually better in this case, it means less area for Harry to draw power from.

I picture it like this, Batman lures Harry to a building, something small like a cabin or small house, Gets harry inside and seals the entrances. Then he throws a circle around the outside of the building, goes in, and takes out Harry. The Denarians threw a circle up around Shedd Aquarium, a very, very large building. Batman working alone could probably draw a circle around something like a small house.
The circle prevents Harry from using magic, a smaller circle means less area for Harry to draw Magic from. Meanwhile, the perfectly mundane walls of the building prevents harry from leaving and crossing the circle. Boom, Done.

[Tyndmyr]

And mortals can break a circle by shoving something through it. The Denarian's circle was only impassable because of hellfire. Bats lacks hellfire.

[Tazar]

Concerning the Circle: The Circle itself requires no magical talent. Butters was able to pull one up, and he's about as vanilla a human as you can get. A Smaller circle is actually better in this case, it means less area for Harry to draw power from.

I picture it like this, Batman lures Harry to a building, something small like a cabin or small house, Gets harry inside and seals the entrances. Then he throws a circle around the outside of the building, goes in, and takes out Harry. The Denarians threw a circle up around Shedd Aquarium, a very, very large building. Batman working alone could probably draw a circle around something like a small house.
The circle prevents Harry from using magic, a smaller circle means less area for Harry to draw Magic from. Meanwhile, the perfectly mundane walls of the building prevents harry from leaving and crossing the circle. Boom, Done.

Harry then blows out the windows or the wall and shatters the circle instantly. :smalltongue: Remember, you've still got power even after the circle is drawn, just not much. And Harry's also got his Hellfire/Soulfire. He could even use his guns to break the circle.
Any circle Bats uses will have to be very cleverly placed in order to ensure Harry doesn't break it on the spot. Harry's got far more experience in both trapping others via circles and being trapped by them, and it will show.

I also think it's safe to say this fight will be taking place in an urban environment; both protagonists operate primarily in large cities.

Furthermore, given the conditions of a week's prep time, Batman will be limited in the amount of arcane research he can do. While it would be unreasonable to deny him any, he can't research circles and the Nevernever and demons and the Fallen and blood rituals and the Red Court and the history of the White Council simultaneously.

[Eldest]

The ambushes go to whoever is ambushing at the time, I would think, and the week goes to Harry (rituals make Wayne Manor go bye-bye, if needed). But everything else would be even.
Also, anybody can make a giant circle. All it needs would be the drop of blood and surge of will to bring it up. So Batman could lay down a big circle around a building or something, then arrange to meet Dresden in the middle. Then bring up the circle and Dresdan has very little magic to get out and break the circle, while Bats is free to hunt him throughout the building.
Honestly, I think it depends on which one gets the first strike in.

[BRC]

With all of Shedd Aquarium to work with, Harry had very, very little power. If he were trapped in something smaller like, say, an apartment, or a storage unit, then I very much doubt he would be able to get enough juice to kool-aid-man his way out of there.
Windows would be a problem, but I'm acting under the assumption that Batman specifically prepared the building in question for this, and that could easily include replacing the windows with bulletproof glass, which would prevent Harry from shooting a bullet outside and breaking the circle.

Of course, letting the fight take place at the time and location of Batman's choosing may be going a little too far.

[Force]

It's honestly hard to judge just how strong-willed the Joker is, I think. He's certainly a very driven individual, but the whole insanity thing kinda gets in the way. :smalltongue: Still, I'd be inclined to think he'd hold up well against influence, but he seems like the kinda guy who would snatch a coin up in a heartbeat if offered one.

RE: the Joker as an ally; I maintain my belief that the Denarians would not work with him simply because he has nothing to offer. He's quite plainly incredibly unstable and is simply a normal human with a penchant for elaborate schemes. Furthermore, he gets his face knocked in by Batman on a regular basis. He brings nothing to the table.

It should be noted that Nicodemus offered the coin of Lasciel to someone who was both a personal enemy of his and an ally to one of his most dangerous enemies-- that is, Harry Dresden. Not only did he offer the coin, but he gave the coin of Lasciel the rebel to Harry. While it is true that Harry was a powerful wizard in his own right, it does illustrate that Nicodemus will sometimes work in ways contrary to his obvious interests.

Besides, doesn't the image of Denarian!Joker just make you want to giggle insanely?

[random11]

It's honestly hard to judge just how strong-willed the Joker is, I think. He's certainly a very driven individual, but the whole insanity thing kinda gets in the way. :smalltongue: Still, I'd be inclined to think he'd hold up well against influence, but he seems like the kinda guy who would snatch a coin up in a heartbeat if offered one.

RE: the Joker as an ally; I maintain my belief that the Denarians would not work with him simply because he has nothing to offer. He's quite plainly incredibly unstable and is simply a normal human with a penchant for elaborate schemes. Furthermore, he gets his face knocked in by Batman on a regular basis. He brings nothing to the table.


The Denarians don't look for non-humans or wizards.
Some of them simply developed some magical "tricks" out of experience and guidance from the fallen, but they weren't all born wizards.
From the choices we've seen of both present and past Denarians, it's hard to tell exactly how do they pick the next target, but it's obvious that it's not just magical power alone.

The Joker is the perfect candidate.
With or without a coin he will gladly help their plans to create chaos in the world, his frequent losses means that he will fall under the influence of the fallen faster, and he will surely not choose the side of the knights.
Maybe in retrospect the Joker can resist the influence (I doubt it), but it does not mean Nicodamus or any other Denarian will be able to predict it. They did make mistakes in choosing candidates before, and they don't really mind to choose the wrong one since from their view, they have all the time in the world.

[Tazar]

With all of Shedd Aquarium to work with, Harry had very, very little power. If he were trapped in something smaller like, say, an apartment, or a storage unit, then I very much doubt he would be able to get enough juice to kool-aid-man his way out of there.
Windows would be a problem, but I'm acting under the assumption that Batman specifically prepared the building in question for this, and that could easily include replacing the windows with bulletproof glass, which would prevent Harry from shooting a bullet outside and breaking the circle.

Of course, letting the fight take place at the time and location of Batman's choosing may be going a little too far.

Indeed; if anything, Harry's got greater tracking potential (magic trumps even the most capable tracker) and movement flexibility (speed potions, Nevernever) and, as such, he would seem better able to dictate the location of an engagement.

Harry's force rings will also still function inside a circle (I think, anyways) and provide another handy means of escaping a trap.

I'm quite aware that the Denarians often choose otherwise unexceptional individuals. My point is that the Joker is too much of a wild card; he's too crazy to be a Denarian, as odd as it may sound. The Joker is so crazy and unpredictable that he would be extremely difficult to control, as opposed to someone like Harry who, while extraordinarily powerful and a formidable foe, is predictable and can be managed. The Joker is just too big a wild card to be even an unreliable ally.



It should be noted that Nicodemus offered the coin of Lasciel to someone who was both a personal enemy of his and an ally to one of his most dangerous enemies-- that is, Harry Dresden. Not only did he offer the coin, but he gave the coin of Lasciel the rebel to Harry. While it is true that Harry was a powerful wizard in his own right, it does illustrate that Nicodemus will sometimes work in ways contrary to his obvious interests.

Besides, doesn't the image of Denarian!Joker just make you want to giggle insanely?

Actually, I would think that offering a coin to Harry would most definitely be in Nicodemus's obvious interests. Were Harry to take the coin, one of Nicodemus's most stalwart and powerful foes would (sooner or later) become one of his most powerful and formidable allies.

[BRC]

I can think of a couple ways Batman could lure Harry into an ambush, but they would vary depend on the circumstances of the battle, and they would rely on Batman knowing Harry's methods and motivations.

[Tazar]

I can think of a couple ways Batman could lure Harry into an ambush, but they would vary depend on the circumstances of the battle, and they would rely on Batman knowing Harry's methods and motivations.

Oh, I absolutely agree that Batman is capable of luring Harry into an ambush. Just wanted to point out that it's not a sure thing given Harry's remarkable capabilities of detection, as well as the magical accessories he has access to. He is at the least just as capable of luring Batman into an ambush, I'd imagine.

[Eldan]

Please give the situation where Bats has defeated a wizard and how that solution would be useful against Harry. What is the meat of Bat's is genius counter-plan. Someone like Zatanna is on a short list of people that have actually beaten Batman.

The problem is Harry doesn't have a kryptonite because his magic only plays fast and loose with any of its nominal rules. He actually doesn't need to speak, or use his tools, its just much easer and more controlled. Add Soulfire to the equation and those issues are vastly reduced. Thus far the only real counter magics are also magic, most of them personal.


Actually, he has a Dresdenite. It's called "any female" :smalltongue:

As for chaotic evil: How about the various Necromancers?

[BRC]

Oh, I absolutely agree that Batman is capable of luring Harry into an ambush. Just wanted to point out that it's not a sure thing given Harry's remarkable capabilities of detection, as well as the magical accessories he has access to. He is at the least just as capable of luring Batman into an ambush, I'd imagine.
Eh, from what I know of Harry, his deductive skills and abilities are mostly geared towards him finding things. He's certainly got a greater awareness than most, but it's hardly a defining trait. With the exception of Mouse (Who counts more as an ally than anything), I can't think of a single magical trick he has that would warn him about an impending ambush.

[random11]

That depends on the preparation time.

In the ambush case, he won't have any real advantage and might be surprised.
Although there is a chance that a failing hi-tech gadget Batman has on him will start hissing and puffing smoke at the wrong time and ruin the ambush.

In case of a week preparation, when Harry knows his enemy is a ninja, making a potion that improves his odds is an obvious course of action.

[Tanuki Tales]

Just chiming in here:

I'm on page 2 right now so I apologize in advance if it was brought up at any point and I also apologize since my knowledge of Dresden mostly comes second hand (gleaned from readers of the novels, wikis and discussion threads like this) but I highly doubt Dresden's Chicago is anywhere as bad as Gotham is and I highly doubt he's seen anything near as bad as The Joker, let alone from a supposed muggle.

For Gotham: Remember, this is a city where not only is there the normal criminal underbelly (both mundane and magical) but you also have the sheer horrors that supervillians bring to the table, along with the magic dark mumbo jumbo that gravitates around Simon Dark, Ragman and any times that Etrigan, Deadman, The Phantom Stranger or even The Spectre come to Gotham. Or that one time that Ares' Children took over Gotham and made it into a living Hades on Earth.

Also keep in mind that this city has suffered 2 major cataclysmic events. First being the release of that Ebola strain from the Wheel of Plagues by Ra's Ah Ghul and then the subsequent earthquake that shattered Gotham in half. Then add on the U.S. government turning it into an official No Man's Land and all of the horrors that were committed in those dark times. Hell, the place was bad enough that even Superman realized his intervention was a futile gesture.

For The Joker: If you say Joker is water under the bridge....you've honestly never really read anything about him. This is the supervillain who all the other supervillains tell stories about around the camp fire in order to scare each other. This is the supervillain who, when he thought he was dying, Jokerized most of the supervillain population and caused mass chaos on a planetary scale (among those being Jokerized were Grayven, Son of Darkseid, Doomsday and even Green Lantern Kyle Rayner). This is the supervillain who managed to manipulate the Hell Lord Nekron into not being able to manipulate the Joker by just selling his soul for a box of cubans. This is the supervillain who Alexander Luthor Jr. specifically left completely out of the loop and his plans for restructuring the entire DC multiverse because he was afraid of what an X-factor he would have ended up becoming. This is the supervillain who has been almost entirely omnipotent twice (three times if you count Silver Age); first by usurping The Spectre from Jim Corrigan and second by usurping 99% of Mr. Mxyzptlk's power.

Mind you, all of that are just the impressive things he's accomplished. I honestly don't want to do a laundry list of the sick and twisted things he's done to get his jollies off. :smalleek:

[The Glyphstone]

Mind you, all of that are just the impressive things he's accomplished. I honestly don't want to do a laundry list of the sick and twisted things he's done to get his jollies off. :smalleek:

And he's still small potatoes compared to, say, Nicodemus, and utterly irrelevant in the face of monsters like Shagnasty or the Faerie Queens. The Joker is nasty, but he's a low-caliber threat compared to the things Harry tangles with on a regular basis. He's only effective in his own continuity because of two factors - Joker Immunity, and more importantly, he's basically Batman's mirror image. He's a man in a clown suit with no superpowers of his own except a little bit of engineering intuitiveness, and Batman lives in a world of men and supermen, and the struggles and success of mankind are paramount. Dresden lives in a world of monsters, where humanity is at best irrelevant and at worst food.

As for the disasters Gotham has suffered - Dresden Chicago is not as bad...because Harry is there. Chicago almost suffered a plague outbreak of far more massive proportions...Harry stopped it in time. Chicago was almost rendered a horrific, lifeless wasteland by the backlash from a massive necromancy ritual, except Harry interrupted it before it finished. Basically, both cities have been exposed to such threats...but Batman failed to prevent them and had to clean up afterwards - Dresden stopped them from happening in the first place.

[Tanuki Tales]

Not that it would help him all that much, one of Superman's weaknesses is magic. Although most of Dresden's usual tricks wouldn't be that effective, McCoy could drop Supes without much effort.

Again, just chiming in and sorry if I'm posting ahead of my reading (because I want to make sure I say what I say before I forget it and run out of time), but, Superman has thrown down with the likes of Etrigan and Lord Satanus and defeated Blaze, a Hell Goddess, in her own realm of power. Not to mention that he resisted the effects and even undid the effects of The Joker warping reality through sheer force of will and belief during the Emperor Joker arc. Reminded that at the time The Joker had most of the power of a 5th Dimensional Imp who have been known to be somewhere in power just below The Presence/God/Yahweh/etc. in sheer power and are supposed to encompass all of Hypertime and being two degrees of infinity in power.

So just having magic isn't an autowin button, its like having Kryptonite. It just means you have some form of advantage over an entity that is essentially a physical god.

@Glyph: The Joker is in no way small potatoes. He's shown himself on three separate occasions to be a player on a universal or multiversal scale. He has shown himself to be able to usurp and use the power of entities who I'm pretty sure dwarf most things in the Dresden-verse quite significantly. He may not have yet wracked up a permanent body count to equal certain entities but the sheer atrocities he wrought as Emperor Joker were staggering. I'd like to hear what tops eating the entire population of China just for a snack and a sight gag for the comic audience (since he breaks the 4th wall and all).

[The Glyphstone]

@Glyph: The Joker is in no way small potatoes. He's shown himself on three separate occasions to be a player on a universal or multiversal scale. He has shown himself to be able to usurp and use the power of entities who I'm pretty sure dwarf most things in the Dresden-verse quite significantly. He may not have yet wracked up a permanent body count to equal certain entities but the sheer atrocities he wrought as Emperor Joker were staggering. I'd like to hear what tops eating the entire population of China just for a snack and a sight gag for the comic audience (since he breaks the 4th wall and all).

Emperor Joker didn't have anything to do with Joker's powers or abilities - it was Mr. M's powers of omnipotence given to Joker for laughs. There are theoretically entities equal to Mr. M in the Dresdenverse...it's considered a death sentence just to make a metaphysical telephone call to them, though, so it's hard to say for certain.

He's formidable only when he's borrowing power from someone else - in Xykon's words, 'power is power'. The rest of the time...guy in a clown suit, with an admittedly powerful talent for making people underestimate him.


In a Harry vs. Joker matchup, I'd be uncertain which way to go...if Joker knew what he was up against, I'd weight it for Joker. Harry has muscle, but he's hampered by his morals; that crazy priest in Side Jobs disabled him very effectively with a hostage and a deadman switch bomb - his Murphyonic field can be manipulated against him, and it's almost impossible to shut off.

[random11]

Just chiming in here:

I'm on page 2 right now so I apologize in advance if it was brought up at any point and I also apologize since my knowledge of Dresden mostly comes second hand (gleaned from readers of the novels, wikis and discussion threads like this) but I highly doubt Dresden's Chicago is anywhere as bad as Gotham is and I highly doubt he's seen anything near as bad as The Joker, let alone from a supposed muggle.



The special thing about the Dresden world setting, is that Chicago looks like any other place in a mundane world for most people.
Only the ones with the power and knowledge know what is REALLY going on, and it is a lot more horrific than Gotham.

Vampires, werewolves, warlocks, fallen angels, fairy queens that can carelessly destroy the world, a creature that will drive you insane just by LOOKING at him, all these exist with only a few people knowing about that.

After cases are over, things will be mostly ignored or explained away for the regular people.
A huge werewolf is nothing but a gang of people who use claw-like weapons, hundreds of years old organizations who came this close to destroy the world were a terrorist organization that failed to plant a bomb in an airport, dark magic that control people's mind was just a gas leak etc.

On the surface, Gotham is worse because it's a horrible place to live in.
But Chicago in Dresden is still worse precisely because it doesn't look like such a horrible place.
Also, it's not exactly just Chicago, most of the Dresden world is like that and Chicago is just where the hero lives in.

[Tanuki Tales]

Emperor Joker didn't have anything to do with Joker's powers or abilities - it was Mr. M's powers of omnipotence given to Joker for laughs. There are theoretically entities equal to Mr. M in the Dresdenverse...it's considered a death sentence just to make a metaphysical telephone call to them, though, so it's hard to say for certain.

He's formidable only when he's borrowing power from someone else - in Xykon's words, 'power is power'. The rest of the time...guy in a clown suit, with an admittedly powerful talent for making people underestimate him.

Actually, no. Mxy had intended to only give Joker 1% of his Omnipotency in order to see the havoc he would cause for Batman. Mxy had gotten bored with just toying with Superman and so was looking for other venues. The Joker tricked Mxy out of 99% of his power, leaving only 1% for the imp. Just like he tricked and usurped the Spectre from Jim Corrigan. Or, if you count Silver Age, when he tricked the Shaper of Worlds out of its power during The Hulk/Batman crossover. Tricking or screwing with supposed nigh-omnipotent entities has become part of Joker's hat. And being the metaphysically insane guy he is, Joker remembers all of this, including no longer canon events and crossovers so all of that would show up if someone looked at him in a metaphysical way.

Really? Are we talking Cthulhu powerful or are we talking "can switch gravity off, re-write the laws of logic, create entire universes from scratch, travel to any reality, destroy entire realities as easy as a guy takes his socks off and make all of the above-sky father entities in the universe my puppets" powerful?

Oh, I'm not saying Joker is anyone like Darkseid all the time, just that you should never underestimate him or underrate him when he's shown himself to be just as evil, just as wily, just as twisted and just as much as a potential threat as any dark god or entity.

@Random: Yeah; Gotham is just like that, but is worse and has seen worse.

[The Glyphstone]

Really? Are we talking Cthulhu powerful or are we talking "can switch gravity off, re-write the laws of logic, create entire universes from scratch, travel to any reality, destroy entire realities as easy as a guy takes his socks off and make all of the above-sky father entities in the universe my puppets" powerful?
.

Not Cthulhu powerful. Azathoth powerful (what with how Dresden draws off real-world stories, it's implied one of them is actually Azathoth). As in - reality would end if they weren't bound outside of it. Talking to them or summoning their servants weakens those bindings, hence the death sentences.

And yeah, Joker has the potential to become nasty if he finds a source of power to steal - I could see him having a lot of fun with the Sidhe, for instance. But until/unless he gets that power, he's a talented and tricky mortal... and far too many Dresden bad guys are the sort to shoot first and ask questions never.

[Tanuki Tales]

Not Cthulhu powerful. Azathoth powerful (what with how Dresden draws off real-world stories, it's implied one of them is actually Azathoth). As in - reality would end if they weren't bound outside of it. Talking to them or summoning their servants weakens those bindings, hence the death sentences.

So comparable to Shuma-Gorrath in his realm powerful?

[The Glyphstone]

Who's that? Someone Emperor Joker beat?

[Tanuki Tales]

Who's that? Someone Emperor Joker beat?

Shuma-Gorrath is a cthonic entity from Marvel comics who has been clocked as hanging up there with Abstract entities like Lady Death and Eternity when he's in his own realm. So an entity capable of destroying entire realities by just fully manifesting in them. He's way above beings like Odin or Surtur who were confirmed to be able to casually destroy entire galaxies with their power.

[Eldan]

You don't seem to know who Azathoth is. The Nuclear Chaos at the Heart of reality. Or less purple: Azathoth is reality. He's the dreamer, we are the dream. He sleeps only because entire races of quasi-godlike beings lull him to sleep with their music constantly, and if he ever wakes up even for a moment, reality ends. Can't get more powerful than that, really.

[Tanuki Tales]

You don't seem to know who Azathoth is. The Nuclear Chaos at the Heart of reality. Or less purple: Azathoth is reality. He's the dreamer, we are the dream. He sleeps only because entire races of quasi-godlike beings lull him to sleep with their music constantly, and if he ever wakes up even for a moment, reality ends. Can't get more powerful than that, really.

I know who Azathoth is. I just don't put too great stock in entities from the Cthulhu mythos, especially when measuring them against Cosmic Comic entities who have "quantifiable" and real feats for their universe shattering power.

Edit: And yeah, you can be when your power threatens multiple realities like entities like Mad Jim Jaspers or the Scarlet Witch did by just existing.

[Misery Esquire]

Edit: And yeah, you can be when your power threatens multiple realities like entities like Mad Jim Jaspers or the Scarlet Witch did by just existing.

Mad Jim could only alter reality, as far as I knew. Sure, he was a "threat" to the multiverse, but obviously as a villian he was beaten. And I can't even find a Scarlet Witch that threatened even one universe. :smallconfused:

In the other corner, you have Azathoth, who if he's even woken up, everyone loses. Forever. No questions, no retries. And you can't kill him. At all. Because even if you managed the impossible (truely impossible not anime "impossible unless you try really hard with the power of friendship") and found a way, killing him would end everything.

Azathoth is simply one of, if not the, most powerful figures in literature. And he doesn't even know it.

[Eldan]

Aaaanyway. I don't know who any of these characters are, since I have never, I think, read a single DC comic in my life. Nor do I care, really. It's not very relevant to the thread, is it? Can we go back to Harry and Bruce? (That sounds like some kind of gay sitcom).

[Tanuki Tales]

Aaaanyway. I don't know who any of these characters are, since I have never, I think, read a single DC comic in my life. Nor do I care, really. It's not very relevant to the thread, is it? Can we go back to Harry and Bruce? (That sounds like some kind of gay sitcom).

@Kinslayer: The alternate version of MJJ's Jasper Warp was determined to be so potentially destructive that if his entire universe hadn't been obliterated then it would have spread to cripple the entire Multiverse. 616 MJJ was stated to be even more powerful and potentially destructive.

When 616 Scarlet Witch caused House of M, her Warp caused tidal waves across the entire multiverse (stated and shown on panel), destroyed the main base of the Captain Britain Corp and even resurrected 616 MJJ fused with The Fury. This was shown in the issues leading up to the Excalibur/Exiles crossover Die by the Sword.

Yes, but all of that is only shown in reference to the Lovecraft Mythos universe. I've never heard of him as being a threat on a multiversal or omniversal scale.

@Eldan: It digressed from someone off handedly saying that if Dresden used The Sight in Gotham or on someone like The Joker he wouldn't at all be fazed by what he saw because his setting and supposed street level enemies were far worse.

[Tyndmyr]

More powerful and more evil are not the same thing. And the jokeris a human. A very bad human as humans go, but looking at, say, shagnasty will leave you collapsed in terror whenever you think about him. Joker ain't nothing on that.

[Tanuki Tales]

More powerful and more evil are not the same thing. And the jokeris a human. A very bad human as humans go, but looking at, say, shagnasty will leave you collapsed in terror whenever you think about him. Joker ain't nothing on that.

A human who has caused incredible atrocities while having the reigns of nigh omnipotent power. Like off handedly eating the entire population of the Republic of China for a snack out of a Chinese take-out box with chop sticks.

[The Glyphstone]

You keep bringing up Emperor Joker as an example of his typical behavior and power, rather than a one (two/three?)-off example of extraordinary circumstances.

If you were talking about soulgazing, I'd give it to you - no one would walk away healthy from a soulgaze with Joker. But just seeing him with the Sight, he's just a awful, evil man - a man at his core, warped and twisted as he is. As you pointed out, things like Emperor Joker aren't canon anymore, yet Joker remembers them because of his metaphysical fourth-wall-breaking craziness.

[tonberrian]

Now I want a scene where the Joker's got Harry bound and gagged in a circle while trying to force a soulgaze on him while Batman and Mouse burst in to save him.

[Tanuki Tales]

You keep bringing up Emperor Joker as an example of his typical behavior, rather than a one (two/three?)-off example of extraordinary circumstances.

If you were talking about soulgazing, I'd give it to you - no one would walk away healthy from a soulgaze with Joker. But just seeing him with the Sight, he's just a awful, evil man. As you pointed out, things like Emperor Joker aren't canon anymore, yet Joker remembers them because of his metaphysical fourth-wall-breaking craziness.

Because it's what brings him up from very bad man to unbelievable horror? Don't get me wrong, if not for the fact that Joker has been given the reigns of universe shattering power several times (was given it recently in Trinity) and did very, very, very twisted and wrong things with it, he wouldn't anywhere near that bad as the likes of dark gods and supernatural baddies. But the fact is that he has been given that kind of power and he has done things like that on a regular basis when he could.

And I never said Emperor Joker was non-canon. I was referring to the Silver Age stories and things like DC vs. Marvel. Emperor Joker is still canon even if its effects were reversed and only Superman, The Spectre, Joker and Mxy probably remember. At least until next year when DC reboots every thing.

And the Joker is more than just an evil man, he's bad enough that well seasoned telepaths who have seen into the minds of cosmic horrors and planetary genocidal dictators like J'onn J'onnz have can't believe and are actually unsettled by what they see in The Joker's mind.

[Fan]

@Kinslayer: The alternate version of MJJ's Jasper Warp was determined to be so potentially destructive that if his entire universe hadn't been obliterated then it would have spread to cripple the entire Multiverse. 616 MJJ was stated to be even more powerful and potentially destructive.

When 616 Scarlet Witch caused House of M, her Warp caused tidal waves across the entire multiverse (stated and shown on panel), destroyed the main base of the Captain Britain Corp and even resurrected 616 MJJ fused with The Fury. This was shown in the issues leading up to the Excalibur/Exiles crossover Die by the Sword.

Yes, but all of that is only shown in reference to the Lovecraft Mythos universe. I've never heard of him as being a threat on a multiversal or omniversal scale.

@Eldan: It digressed from someone off handedly saying that if Dresden used The Sight in Gotham or on someone like The Joker he wouldn't at all be fazed by what he saw because his setting and supposed street level enemies were far worse.

But the thing is, he CAN be killed. Azathoth DREAMS what Jasper kills, his consciousness is so vast and multitudinous that he can create beings like Mad Jim Jaspers, and the concept that there ARE multiverses (which in Marvel function more like multiple timelines, where series of events went different ways.), was created by Azathoth, by the virtue of Jim existing. Azathoth is already more powerful than him. Jaspers CANNOT kill Azathoth because it would kill him, and the concept of him. Nothing can kill Azathoth. Period.

When MJJ 616 creates universes while being mentally retarded, blind, and kept inside an eternal coma.. then we can talk.

Anyways, that's my only comment in regards to this thread..

Go Harry?

[Tanuki Tales]

But the thing is, he CAN be killed. Azathoth DREAMS what Jasper kills, his consciousness is so vast and multitudinous that he can create beings like Mad Jim Jaspers, and the concept that there ARE multiverses (which in Marvel function more like multiple timelines, where series of events went different ways.), was created by Azathoth, by the virtue of Jim existing. Azathoth is already more powerful than him. Jaspers CANNOT kill Azathoth because it would kill him, and the concept of him. Nothing can kill Azathoth. Period.

When MJJ 616 creates universes while being mentally retarded, blind, and kept inside an eternal coma.. then we can talk.

Anyways, that's my only comment in regards to this thread..

Go Harry?

MJJ, Scarlet Witch, etc. can die because that's what the truly omnipotent force of plot and author fiat decides. That's what happens to any universal or multiversal reality warper who is anything more than some shade of neutral and more than a once in a while nuisance. They either get killed off or put onto the bus because you can't keep them existing in the setting without ruining the point of stories being written or without ending everything right then and there. With his level of power, 616 Jaspers shouldn't have been able to be killed and the way he was killed was honestly retarded. Even assuming there exists some magic lala-land where there's nothing to warp, Jaspers still had himself and The Fury to play with. -_-

But when you take similar Reality Warpers and make them more towards the neutral/annoying side of things, they can be in a story countless times without ruining anything. Mxyzptlk, the Living Tribunal, Galactus (though he's the lower end of that scale) and similar beings are a case in point.

Not really. I've never heard Azathoth as being anything more than a threat to his own reality. He's never been shown to be a multiversal being and the only reason he's "unkillable" is because everything else in the Mythos-verse is weaker than him on top of the fact that anything of at least Old One level is of the not dying variety.

And honestly, most of what you just said sounds...well...I can't think of a nice way to put it. Azathoth is a powerful dude, but nothing of what you said is true or even backed in the least bit by conjecture in the mythos.

[The Glyphstone]

Honestly, I think we're getting waaaay sidetracked here. Let's try to drag this back to Harry Dresden vs. Batman, instead of Emperor Joker vs. Azathoth vs. Vampire Kings vs. Squirrel Girl or whatever. Sure, we segued into it tangentially and understandably, but we're miles from the original topic.

Instead, let's start branching out. For example:

8-14) As 1 to 7, but each of them has their sidekick/apprentice as backup. Batman gets Robin (the Richard Grayson Robin, just to pick one) and Harry gets Molly.

[Mewtarthio]

Harry's sidekick is Mouse. Molly's just his apprentice.

[Tazar]

Molly definitely fulfills the "robin" sidekick/apprentice role, not Mouse. Harry isn't teaching Mouse stuff. :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

Mouse is a dog, and Robin qualifies for the definition of 'apprentice' as much as he does 'sidekick', really. Molly is his closest analogue in terms of their respective primaries.

[BRC]

Mouse's Sidekick is Harry. Molly's just his apprentice.
Fixed it for you.

But seriously folks. Harry has no real equivalent of Robin. Molly is his apprentice, but she's not his sidekick.

If anything, I would put Murphy as Harry's sidekick. She's hardly his apprentice, but I think he's spent more time working alongside Murphy than any other character.

[The Glyphstone]

Murphy's not a sidekick anymore than Thomas is. They're both allies, but I was limiting this to just Bats/Harry's closest/most accessible companion, otherwise Batman just goes 'LOLJusticeLeague'.

Harry doesn't have an equivalent of Robin. Molly is the closest he gets - a younger person with the same sort of powers and a similar skill set, with all of the same knowledge.

[Tazar]

I don't get why Molly isn't an analog to Robin. They're both child understudies taken under the wing of a more experienced individual for protection and learning.

I'd imagine Molly would be a bit more useful than Robin, as she can create a perfect stealth field for Harry to ambush from.

[Hadessniper]

I don't get why Molly isn't an analog to Robin. They're both child understudies taken under the wing of a more experienced individual for protection and learning.

I'd imagine Molly would be a bit more useful than Robin, as she can create a perfect stealth field for Harry to ambush from.

For one thing there is no way Harry would willingly take Molly into a dangerous situation, unless he had no other option. At least not yet.

[Tyndmyr]

For one thing there is no way Harry would willingly take Molly into a dangerous situation, unless he had no other option. At least not yet.

But he does...In Turn Coat, at least. That's pretty damned close to the point of measurement. Now sure, he does try to limit the danger she's exposed to, but Batman does the same with Robin. It's not uncommon for heroic types, after all.

And yeah, Molly could, if we're doing lethal, all bets are off, win this solo. The wizard with a portable stealth field who can kill or change you with her mind? It's not even fair.


And on a nitpicky note, yes...Azazoth is the Dreamer who is Dreaming Us. Reality is all in his head. It's not merely an issue of "more power". Everything that is, from our perspective, exists solely because it's a dream inside his mind. Next to that, no amount of power over our reality(regardless of if you divide it up into multiverses or not) is relevant.

[Eldan]

And on a nitpicky note, yes...Azazoth is the Dreamer who is Dreaming Us. Reality is all in his head. It's not merely an issue of "more power". Everything that is, from our perspective, exists solely because it's a dream inside his mind. Next to that, no amount of power over our reality(regardless of if you divide it up into multiverses or not) is relevant.

Next thread: Morpheus, Lord Shaper, Dream of the Endless vs. Azathoth, the Blind Idiot God, the Daemon Sultan :smalltongue:

[kpenguin]

And on a nitpicky note, yes...Azazoth is the Dreamer who is Dreaming Us. Reality is all in his head. It's not merely an issue of "more power". Everything that is, from our perspective, exists solely because it's a dream inside his mind. Next to that, no amount of power over our reality(regardless of if you divide it up into multiverses or not) is relevant.

Except Azazoth was dreamed up by HP Lovecraft and exists within the reality of fiction. Therefore, the power of a writer supercedes that of the power of Azathoth. A writer could change Azazoth, change him from what he is to something smaller entirely or perhaps remove him from the mythos altogether.

With this in mind, I believe that the only way to settle a battle between Batman and Harry Dresden are to compare the respective resources of DC Comics and Jim Butcher.

[Eldan]

That's one-sided and boring.

Instead, I propose we lock Bob Kane (obviously, when he was still young and alive) and Jim Butcher in a cage and let them fight it out.

[KnightDisciple]

That's one-sided and boring.

Instead, I propose we lock Bob Kane (obviously, when he was still young and alive) and Jim Butcher in a cage and let them fight it out.That's pretty solidly in Jim's favor. He actually knows martial arts (at least according to his cover bio). And while not a Navy SEAL or anything, he's pretty solidly built, and so could probably use his mass effectively. Kane's just some comic book writer dude (says the Batman fanboy!).

[Mewtarthio]

It's not all that relevant, anyway, seeing as Azathoth does not necessarily exist in the Dresdenverse. Sure, the Outsiders have a very Lovecraftian theme to them, and I believe the Necronomicon was mentioned as a book with actual magical power (or am I misremembering? I'm pretty sure it was mentioned as a grimoire that the Council keeps in widespread circulation to dilute its effectiveness), but that doesn't mean we're all a dream. Dresden acknowledges the existence of a powerful spiritual entity with strong ties to the Catholic Church and an army of angels at his beck and call without believing that he's the omnipotent and omnibenevolent creator of all things. Similarily, he could also acknowledge the existence of an incredibly powerful Outsider named "Azathoth" without believing that all of reality is just a dream it's having.

Besides, wasn't the whole "Azathoth is the dreamer who imagines reality" thing a later addition to the Mythos? If we accept Lovecraft's writings as Dresdenverse canon, that doesn't mean we accept Derleth et al. An analogy: Bram Stoker wrote a comprehensive "How To" guide on killing Black Court vampires, then disguised it as a novel. Stephanie Meyer just wrote a series of novels; anyone who visits a vampire gathering expecting to see the Cullens will be woefully unprepared. Likewise, even if Lovecraft wrote a series of informative documents on the nature of various Outsiders, that doesn't mean Chaosium is the foremost institution on the research of Things Whose Very Existence Violates the Laws of Magic.

Heck, odds are pretty good they're not. Otherwise, the White Council would have shut them down long ago. Plus, from a meta perspective, they'd just sue Butcher if he started direct assimilating their setting.

[BRC]

But he does...In Turn Coat, at least. That's pretty damned close to the point of measurement. Now sure, he does try to limit the danger she's exposed to, but Batman does the same with Robin. It's not uncommon for heroic types, after all.

And yeah, Molly could, if we're doing lethal, all bets are off, win this solo. The wizard with a portable stealth field who can kill or change you with her mind? It's not even fair.


And on a nitpicky note, yes...Azazoth is the Dreamer who is Dreaming Us. Reality is all in his head. It's not merely an issue of "more power". Everything that is, from our perspective, exists solely because it's a dream inside his mind. Next to that, no amount of power over our reality(regardless of if you divide it up into multiverses or not) is relevant.
No-holds-barred Molly wouldn't try to kill you. It however would be easy for her to drive you insane. Considering that with properly-done mental magic, the trick is NOT to leave the victim insane, if Molly intended to drive somebody mad she could do so easily.

[Hadessniper]

No-holds-barred Molly wouldn't try to kill you. It however would be easy for her to drive you insane. Considering that with properly-done mental magic, the trick is NOT to leave the victim insane, if Molly intended to drive somebody mad she could do so easily.

Not without forfeiting her and Dresden's lives is she gets caught.

[BRC]

Not without forfeiting her and Dresden's lives is she gets caught.

Hence "No-Holds Barred".

[random11]

I have a question about Batman since I don't know much about him in the comics.

Harry, in most cases after the first 2-3 books, rarely works alone.
He often uses allies such as Michael, Murphy, Thomas, the wolves and even Marcone as a legitimate fighting strategy and not just for information.

What about Batman?
In the Batman comics (not JLA or other comics that are obviously not focused just on him), how often does he work as a team?
Other than Robin, does he usually face his problems alone, or does he gather a team to match the enemy?

I know this thread's question is for a one on one combat, and I think in most options Harry has the advantage even if he is alone.
But still, if characters are compared in a fight, I think the fact Harry is rarely alone should also be taken into consideration.

[Tiki Snakes]

I understand it varies to insane degrees depending on the continuity, the comic line in question, or whatever else factor you could dream up.

Simply put, he usually works 'alone', but even then you likely have oracle on hold in case he needs info in the field, the help of commissioner Gordon on tap, and any number of 'Bat Family' kicking around town even on a quiet night, should the need for it make itself apparent.

So, probably not that different in that respect. The problem comes when you allow any likely allies in and instead of sticking to the Gotham focused comic-line tone, you allow Justice League related sitation, where he's more than likely got remote access to all of that stuff and Superman, Zantana and all of those guys on hold instead.

[Tazar]

Not without forfeiting her and Dresden's lives is she gets caught.

Considering they'd be fighting superheroes from an entirely different universe and continuity, I don't think they have to worry about that overmuch. :smalltongue:

[KnightDisciple]

What about Batman?
In the Batman comics (not JLA or other comics that are obviously not focused just on him), how often does he work as a team?
Other than Robin, does he usually face his problems alone, or does he gather a team to match the enemy?

I know this thread's question is for a one on one combat, and I think in most options Harry has the advantage even if he is alone.
But still, if characters are compared in a fight, I think the fact Harry is rarely alone should also be taken into consideration.In the last decade or so? He very rarely works alone. I mean, Alfred's aways been something of "home base support". One Robin or another's been kicking around for a long time. But if we look at the most recent stuff, Batman has Batman, Robin, Red Robin, Batgirl, Oracle, Blackbat, Batwoman, and Catwoman. And that's just the folks closest to him, not counting Batman, Inc.

So, yeah, he's got a couple of people he often involves.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Batman working alone is more of an informed trait. He allegedly spends most of his time going after small time thugs or the like that he encounters on patrol. Most comic stories despite sometimes taking over a year to be published take only a few days time. Bats is alone in a lot of that unpublished time.

Kinda like how in theory Harry still spends a lot of his time being a Wizard-for-hire despite him not being hired for the plot since what... Blood Ties if that counts? I was almost surprised when his office showed up in Changes since its been forever since we've been there.

[olelia]

Depending if the fight ever got into no holds grudge match batman would be a leaf in the wind. Harry, by that point in the series, has already threatened that if push came to shove he would use the darkhollow, recall Lasciel's coin, AND take up the winter mantle. And in dead beat they already established that with only the darkhollow you wold have godlike power.

[Tyndmyr]

I understand it varies to insane degrees depending on the continuity, the comic line in question, or whatever else factor you could dream up.

Simply put, he usually works 'alone', but even then you likely have oracle on hold in case he needs info in the field, the help of commissioner Gordon on tap, and any number of 'Bat Family' kicking around town even on a quiet night, should the need for it make itself apparent.

So, probably not that different in that respect. The problem comes when you allow any likely allies in and instead of sticking to the Gotham focused comic-line tone, you allow Justice League related sitation, where he's more than likely got remote access to all of that stuff and Superman, Zantana and all of those guys on hold instead.

I think if we start allowing everything from every continuity, then we need to do the same for Dresden. And the guy can, if absolutely necessary, call in some crazy support. I mean, he *could* accept the offer of Winter Knight from Mab. Or hell, he's got the island entity thing. It gives him a location where he absolutely cannot be ambushed, and a source of ridiculous, nigh-infinite power to call on if need be. Doing either of these things has some pretty big implications, of course, but any non-magical opponents going up against him would tend to be outright screwed in an all out battle. The coin is also an excellent point. His biggest weakness is that, for all his power, he's basically just a normal dude(albeit good at running away) without it. He's got a gun, sure, but he's not exceptional with it. Taking up the coin entirely dispenses with that.

Hell, consider Supes, one of the JLA heavyweights. Notably vulnerable to mind-powers, and has been bent to attack his friends via this many, many times before. Molly could take down Superman in short order, and who knows how many more....solo. And she's the newbie apprentice.

This interests me, so Ima flip through a JLA lineup and speculate on the results of an all-out battle with team dresden(warning, dresden spoilers ahead!):

Superman: Vulnerable to mental magic. So, very subject to being controlled. If control doesn't happen, making the target crazy is the failure mode. Crazy + superman = problematic for whoever is close. Presumably x-ray vision does not work against veils, since it's magic. Ditto for any other kryptonians.

Batman: Useful if he stays in the background, collecting info. He's a normal human though, so combat would result in him being destroyed horribly.

Wonder Woman: Depending on source, she might actually have some magical powers. She'd probably be a magical lightweight in the dresden world...but even that is quite useful, and of course, physically she's pretty powerful. Dresden has taken a lot of people like that down, but she'd be an asset to the team.

The Flash: Problematic. Dresden-world doesn't typically have that kind of super-speed. Sure, you can get odd effects on time, but typically it's the result of going to the never-never or what not. Sure, he can't get past wards and the like, but he'll be able to ambush people who leave safe locations without using the Nevernever or a shield. He's almost certainly just too damned fast for magic to get used against him if he limits himself to a hit and run.

Green Lantern: Also problematic. Is the ring technically magic? Either way, he's got lots and lots of raw power, and can probably have a pretty epic fight with heavyweights like Dresden. Presumably his will gives him a resistance to mind magic(relying mostly on the comics here for this), and he should be able to creatively form defenses against a number of other things. A solid front liner.

Aquaman: Yeah, he's pretty worthless.

Martian Manhunter: Flammable. Dresden is notorious for accidentally creating building sized infernos. I suspect I know how this fight is going to play out. That said, he's hell on wheels against anything without the ability to detect him and light him on fire. Non-wizards outside of a ward, basically. He'll tear people up until a wizard finds him, then he burns.

Green Arrow: Not going to be able to hold up to the wizards head on, but gas arrows and the like are handy...he can provide some support. I'd place him in the same category as Kinkaid...not the most powerful, but extremely skilled at what they do, and smart enough to play to their strengths.

Atom: The small size thing is exceptionally useful, since it is one of the few ways of hiding that might work against The Sight. The ability to ride electrons is not likely to matter given how wizards and tech interoperate. He's best used for stealth/information, etc. He's almost certainly vulnerable to other means of detection, though, like Mouse. Guaranteed vulnerable to the Island, if he's on it.

Hawkman: Probably pretty screwed. Flight is not that big of a deal in this fight, and melee is a risky business in this fight if you're of normal human mortality. The only power that's likely to help him is the reincarnation bit.

Phantom Stranger: I dunno if he counts as JLA or not...but he's magical. If there's ever a reason for him to show up, it'd be for this fight. Wizard, and fits the Dresden world reasonably well...but apparently he has some compunction about finishing fights himself. Therefore, I see his most likely role as mobile support for his allies, with magical dispelling being of great help.

Red Tornado: Wind is probably of doubtful use against wizards that can control it, but pretty useful against anyone else. He's a tough dude, though, and a fast one, so he remains a solid front liner.

Hawkgirl: See Hawkman.

Zatanna: Of vital importance in this fight...pretty much the JLAs best available magical support most of the time. Spells must be spoken or written, which effectively limits her to single spells at a time, like most of the dresden-verse(The Archive is the exception). Due to magic being a bit less rules-based in DC, I'm not really sure what her other limitations, if any, are. Her biggest risk is being overwhelmed by multiple opposing wizards, one of whom is counterspelling her.

Captain Marvel: Dude's vulnerable to magic. That's a problem in this fight, and means that, like superman, he's a heavyweight that might end up tearing through his own side.

Dr Fate: I have lost track of this dude's life/death status in DC, he's dropped so often. For a powerful magical guy, he seems to have a strange tendency to drop dead. His powers are extremely extensive, but item based. Specifically, demon-item based. This is begging for all the White Council guys to take him out. Giant target. He'll probably do great until they show up, and tear him apart.

Dr. Strange: Not JLA specifically, but he tends to get called up on magically things when available. His presence matters a lot. He's ludicrously powerful, and screwing with time is, while against the laws and makes him a target, damned powerful. He's the only one that the council might not be able to stop, and he's also the only person that can go head to head with the Archive. If he's not there, the JLA will eventually lose, full stop. If he is...it gets pretty crazy.

Team Dresden:

Archive: So long as she has any magical juice at all, functionally immortal, and capable of dealing with large numbers of hostile attackers, including wizards. Without magical juice, she's a young girl. However, she's portrayed as sufficiently efficient that this is something that takes a good deal of time to happen in even the most energy-deprived of situations. She also knows anything that has ever been written down. Anywhere, at any time. She might pose a match for the JLA solo.

Bob: Primarily a source of information, but nearly limitless at that. If it's magical info, he's probably either got it, or knows where it is.

Butters: Doctor. He's also able to put up a ward, though, so he's got a defense against magical/magic-like powers....but he's nothing special against high powered punchers and the like, which leaves him a bit vulnerable, since the JLA has that in spades.

Demonreach: The island of evil, basically. It powers a ley line, is definitely black magic, and is basically hostile to human life. Dresden controls it. Among other things, it means that while on the island, Dresden knows everything happening on it down to the slightest detail. Note that the Gatekeeper cannot come here.

Dresden: Well, if fire, wind, or force energy can solve it, he's probably a winner. Also remarkably good at finding things, cutting deals, and keeping himself alive. Despite being the central character, not the most powerful of the lot, lacking with fine control. Mundane weapons typically are not bigger than a .44 revolver.

Gard: Basically an immortal viking woman. Magically knowledgeable, and considers being disemboweled a slight annoyance. Marcone's bodyguard, so almost invariably with him. Definitely a frontliner.

Hendricks: Marcone's human bodyguard. Huge, powerful, great with guns. No magical powers, though. Not going to fare well against most of the JLA heavyweights.

Kinkaid: He's basically the Punisher, if the Punisher's daddy was a demon instead of a fleshy human. Almost invariably with the Archive.

Luccio: Wizard, heavyweight on par with Dresden in straight magical ability, though somewhat more control focused. Likes fire magic.

Marcone: Not so much an ally, per se, but him and Dresden have mutual interests, and end up on the same side routinely. The JLA would almost certainly be after him as well. Criminal overlord, quite intelligent, and entirely non-magical. However, he's smart enough to hire wizard protection, and Gard, his magical bodyguard, is no slouch.

Michael/other Knights: # of available knights varies from 1 to 3, depending on time it's set. Basically the angry fist of god with a sword. The problematic thing is, they fight evil. The JLA is mostly a pretty good lot. Situation matters a lot here, but the Knights are remarkably powerful against anything evil, with basically a magic sword what carves through anything, protection of faith, and Michael's house is behind a very strong threshold. Also, detecting targets is not generally a problem for the knights. They'll be extremely potent against any JLA member that manages to qualify as evil, but will not engage anyone else.

Molly: Veils and mind control, mostly. Hey, we play D&D. We know the value of Invisibility and Mind Rape. Physically, she's not imposing, nor does she have the raw power of the heavyweights, but she makes up for it in spades with detail work.

Morgan: Wizard. Has a sword what cuts through magic. Almost certainly capable of trashing Dresden head to head. However, utterly will not violate the rules of magic, and has little tolerance for those who do. This limits the tactics taken by people actually with him. Notably, no mind magic or direct magical assassinations. Despite this, he's sufficiently powerful that having him as an asset is not to be taken lightly. He could easily be sicced on opposing magical opponents.

Mouse: Giant dog what detects hostile and evil things, is probably of human level intelligence, and is apparently capable of biting through a lot of magical defenses.

Murphy: Sort of like Commisioner Gordon is to Batman, only with more protaganist team ups.

Ramirez: Wizard. With grenades. He's a heavyweight, but in raw power, he isn't at the top of the scale(Dresden has much more, for example). However, he's basically a combat wizard with tons of experience with horrific things. Offensively, he prefers water and acid attacks, but defensively, he can literally alter physics. Hand to hand with him when his shield is up is quite literally suicide, as his shield reduces anything entering it into it's component atoms, separated from one another. No compunction about using modern weaponry. Definitely a front-liner.

Senior Council: Seven extremely powerful wizards. The only one who can be guaranteed to be an ally is Ebenezer McCoy, though. The Gatekeeper is also pretty frequently on Harry's side, and Injun Joe is generally friendly. The attitudes and willingness to help of the others is all highly variable, and some, like the Merlin, while ridiculously powerful, do not tolerate violations of the magical laws. Same restrictions as mentioned under Morgan.

Thomas: Vampire. Capable of seducing and addicting or killing those of the opposite sex almost effortlessly. Standard vampire powers apply, save for turning others, but they are powered by feeding. It's possible for him to run dry, and turn into a mindless feeding machine. Still, an incredibly rich, connected vampire with a shotgun is useful. He can probably also tap into Lara for White Court assistance if needed.

Werewolves: Er...a batch of werewolves. They do more or less what you'd expect.

Faries: Ludicrously powerful, but they are..."allies". Deals, trickery, they're not united, etc. Help can be gotten from them, and it's extremely powerful, but they are not the most reliable of compatriots.

Conclusion: I have no freaking idea who would win, but I would pay a great deal of money to see that fight. It'd be epic. Exact lineup will vary slightly depending on which point you choose to pick. The JLA team will be much more unified and cohesive than Team Dresden, but we have a lot more highly lethal individuals in the Dresden world.

[Tazar]

We seriously can't allow calling in or accessing allies at all, or things will quickly get out of hand.
Both sides have just absolutely stupidly powerful allies to call upon. And let's not forget the Knights of the Cross, who literally have active divine backing from God in the Dresdenverse. Granted, this would make their intervention somewhat of a tossup, but still gives you an idea of the kind of help Harry can muster.

Speaking of which, I seriously hope we get to see the Archive going all-out on somebody at least once before the end of the series. She fended off what, eight fallen angels, on the equivalent of a nearly-dried-up pair of AA batteries? Can't even imagine what she'd do on a good day.

[KnightDisciple]

@Tyndmyr: A couple of points.

Aquaman is not "useless"; he's often shown to be very physically powerful. Yes, he's of reduced effectiveness outside the water. But he's not helpless outside the water, either.

Captain Marvel isn't "vulnerable" to magic, he's empowered by magic. He transforms by being stuck by magic lightning. That's one of the big differences between him and Superman: Captain Marvel can go toe to toe with magical villains with no real problems. He once fought the bloody Spectre, for crying out loud!

Doctor Fate is alive (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kent_V._Nelson_%28New_Earth%29). And while his powers are technically "item based", it's a very powerful item (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Helmet_of_Fate), and it's not "demonic" in any sense. And I'd love to see the Wardens try to take him down.

Doctor Strange is from Marvel, not DC.


And the Knights would be essentially useless unless Etrigan shows up (unlikely); none of the JLA is evil, and considering none of them are Denarians/demons, either...

[Selrahc]

Superman: Vulnerable to mental magic. So, very subject to being controlled. If control doesn't happen, making the target crazy is the failure mode. Crazy + superman = problematic for whoever is close. Presumably x-ray vision does not work against veils, since it's magic. Ditto for any other kryptonians.

Superman isn't particularly *vulnerable* to mental magic, any more than any other incredibly strong willed individual would be. He just lacks a specific invulnerability against it. Berserk rage isn't the default failure effect.

I mean.. he has all that superspeed you are worried about for the Flash. And a great deal more besides. And is equally vulnerable to magical effects.


Aquaman: Yeah, he's pretty worthless.

I don't see how you can call Green Arrow useful, and Aquaman useless.

Aquaman is super strong, super tough, super fast. For starters. Added to that he can use powerful telepathic attacks. He is also an accomplished Hydromancer, being able to magically control water. His hand is made out of a magical source of water which acts a s a supply if no other water is around.





Captain Marvel: Dude's vulnerable to magic. That's a problem in this fight, and means that, like superman, he's a heavyweight that might end up tearing through his own side.

Not vulnerable to magic. In fact, explicitly massively resistant to all magical effects due to "The Power of Zeus".

That said, Captain Marvel is normally JSA rather than JLA.

But then again, if Harry Dresden is not only using his teammates, but also semi-affiliated groups then I suppose the JSA and other allied DC teams would be getting involved. Other powerhouses like Captain Atom and Firestorm, groups like the Amazonians and the Green Lantern Corps..


Martian Manhunter: Flammable.

Martian Manhunter hasn't really been flammable for a while. Or at least.. not properly. It takes special fire of an unspecified "Significant" nature to take him down.


Dr. Strange: Not JLA specifically, but he tends to get called up on magically things when available. His presence matters a lot. He's ludicrously powerful, and screwing with time is, while against the laws and makes him a target, damned powerful. He's the only one that the council might not be able to stop, and he's also the only person that can go head to head with the Archive. If he's not there, the JLA will eventually lose, full stop. If he is...it gets pretty crazy.

Dr. Strange is not DC.

[Erts]

Okay, this is how a Team Dresden vs JLA fight would go down.


First a red blur moving at Mach 10 (2 miles a second, a mile a half second, or around 500 feet in a tenth of a second, faster than any bullet) that is immune to magic slams into the team and disables them faster than anyone can blink. (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/William_Batson_(New_Earth)#Powers)

Then the rest of the team comes and rips into Team Dresden. Superman, recognizing the whole "weakness to magic" stays back a couple miles and instead burns them in a flash of fire from above with his eyes.
The power scale between the two universes is the difference between falling off a table and falling off a cliff.

And Aquaman is actually a powerhouse in the DC, superstrong and hydrokinetic.
When I started this thread, I should have stated that they don't get access to allies, as this happens.

[Tanuki Tales]

The Phantom Stranger may be one of the largest magical powerhouses on the JLA officially, but his powers are very much so tied by power of plot.

The JLA also has Zauriel, Blue Devil, Bloodwynd, Deadman and arguably Jade as part of their roster to supplement the already mentioned Etrigan, Doctor Fate and Zatanna. Though Fate, Etrigan and Zatanna are no small potatoes since Etrigan has been described as a primordial force of unchecked power by the likes of Darkseid, Zatanna has taken on and defeated entities like Zor the Rogue Time Tailor (a massively powerful mystical entity) and Fate of any incarnation has been pretty potent.

Then again, the two of the three of them got Curbstomped by Lobo in Hell so take that as you will. :smalltongue:

[Soras Teva Gee]

By the time you get beyond the Big 7 and Zatanna for DCU allies you've reached a mass of heroes sufficient I wouldn't place bets on Mab winning.

Superman alone is enough for Harry and any of his normal alllies. His "vulnerability" to magic is a purely relative thing. Against destructive magic he's almost as invulnerable as to everything else, which is why he's got the winning record against Captain Marvel and can beat Thor (of Marvel) in a fair fight. Unless you magic sword is "shave electrons off an atom" sharp its not going to matter. His real vulnerability is to more subtle magic like Zatanna's 'pots' where he's the same as any other hero possessing heroic willpower.

Molly might one day have a small chance, or if Thomas wasn't straight. And those are still small percentile chances.

[Lamech]

Then the rest of the team comes and rips into Team Dresden. Superman, recognizing the whole "weakness to magic" stays back a couple miles and instead burns them in a flash of fire from above with his eyes.
The power scale between the two universes is the difference between falling off a table and falling off a cliff.
Again team Dresden if they went all out evil could use the extremely cheap tactic of "Hide in the Nevernever and send spirits, demons and other summonables to do your dirty work." (Actually I don't actually think that they would even need to violate any of the 7 laws to try that, but all the best summons require doing so.)

[Erts]

Again team Dresden if they went all out evil could use the extremely cheap tactic of "Hide in the Nevernever and send spirits, demons and other summonables to do your dirty work." (Actually I don't actually think that they would even need to violate any of the 7 laws to try that, but all the best summons require doing so.)

Well, the JLA has Shadowpact, a team devoted solely to protecting the DCU from the supernatural and a variety of powerful magicians, like Zatanna and Dr. Fate.
And I think Captain Marvel could pulverize any demon in the Dresden Files so far, he is imbued by Zeus to be immune to magic.

[lord_khaine]

He wouldnt need to, as that tactic can be defeated simply by staying at home, behind a tresshold..

[Lamech]

He wouldnt need to, as that tactic can be defeated simply by staying at home, behind a tresshold..
Right! I forgot about that. Its why the Nightmare/ghost in Grave Peril wasn't able to do any damage! And how in that first book the toad demon couldn't threaten Susan and Harry when they were nice and safe at home./sarcasm
More to the point. The threshold is not perfect. Worse they won't spend all there time hiding at home.

[Hadessniper]

If you get rid of the super speed by letting team wizard know of it early and set up a potion or something to counter it, I'd give a fight between the Justice League and just McCoy about even odds. He's the only wizard that can break the seven laws of magic and he's gotten damn good at it.

He could pretty easily take out the whole of the cartoon Justice League with the death spell he was using in Changes and that's only scratching the surface of his power. Super speed is really the only thing that could take him out if he didn't prepare for it, although super speed has always been under used in superhero stories as it's pretty much an instant win against anyone without it.

Also regarding Captain Marvel, you better believe McCoy uses high order magic. Plus Marvel is a teenage boy so Lara Raith would have him begging to be eaten alive.

Anyway I think a teem with McCoy, Dresden, and the Archive on it could beat just about any Justice League team.

[KnightDisciple]

As Captain Marvel, he has, among other things, the Wisdom of Solomon. Which means he's very resistant to mind-affecting abilities (and, again, magic in general).

Frankly, the Big Red Cheese is a huge game-changer against magic users. And Wonder Woman is nothing to sneeze at there. GL's probably got a decent chance. And if you throw in Dr. Fate and Zatanna, they're equal, at least. Shoot, throw in Zauriel, and you've got a bonafide angel.

[Hadessniper]

The Wisdom of Solomon entry on the page you link doesn't say it gives him a resistant to mind-affecting abilities, I'm not sure if you're know the Dresden Files, but Lara Raith is the Queen of the White Court vampires, basically succubuses. She exudes sex appeal both naturally and supernaturally and kills you with it. Plus the White Court vampires are master manipulators without any magic. Under Captain Marvel's weaknesses it says that he's emotionally a teenage boy, if that's true Lara could wrap him around her little finger without effort.

[lord_khaine]

Right! I forgot about that. Its why the Nightmare/ghost in Grave Peril wasn't able to do any damage! And how in that first book the toad demon couldn't threaten Susan and Harry when they were nice and safe at home./sarcasm
More to the point. The threshold is not perfect. Worse they won't spend all there time hiding at home

The sarcasm is certainly misplaced, considering Harry has often stated that the threshold on his appartment is allmost non-existant, yet it still managet to hinder the deamon quite a bit.

As for the Nightmare, it wasnt able to cross the threshold at all, it used an ability to attack people though their dreams that so far has been unique to it.

All this is of course besides, that the whole point of summoning is to call something to you, im sure that would be of great help to pull something nasty over to whatever corner of the never you might be hiding in. /sarcasm

Regarding Lara Wraith, then Marvel still has the power of Zeus, making him resistant towards magical attacks, something that would include Lara's power of manipulation and control.

And this is of course even only in the situation where they dont just send someone else after Lara, like fx Superman, against most versions of him she would be helpless.

[Hadessniper]

Is her lust aura magical though. I know it is classified as magic in the Dresden world, but in a superhero context it would more akin to something psychic than magical. Plus she is sexy as hell and a master at seduction even without the aura.

[KnightDisciple]

Is her lust aura magical though. I know it is classified as magic in the Dresden world, but in a superhero context it would more akin to something psychic than magical. Plus she is sexy as hell and a master at seduction even without the aura.Yet Harry, who while fairly strong-willed is also kind of...well, he appreciates the female form, we'll say. He regularly tells her to get lost. It's made fairly clear that while White Vamps are powerful, their magic is not all-powerful.

Factoring in that Captain Marvel has both extra magical resistance, a generally high willpower, and the extra mental fortitude of his Wisdom, and I think you're overestimating Lara's chances. Keep in mind he's not even a teenager as Billy; he likely doesn't totally grasp the whole "sex" thing yet. As Captain Marvel, it's kind of a non-issue.

Plus, it takes at least a short amount of time for the whammy to really set in. Time wherein he might realize what's going on.

Plus, White Court gets their powers from, essentially, a demon inhabiting their souls (The Hunger). It's pretty darn magical, if you ask me.

[Lamech]

The sarcasm is certainly misplaced, considering Harry has often stated that the threshold on his appartment is allmost non-existant, yet it still managet to hinder the deamon quite a bit. He says its weaker, not that it doesn't exist. And how many of these people have full-fledged houses that they live in normally, don't use as say... a place of business and all the other things not to screw up a threshold? Also non-flammable. Flammable house can be set on fire.


As for the Nightmare, it wasnt able to cross the threshold at all, it used an ability to attack people though their dreams that so far has been unique to it.They would have to simply find the people in the Nevernever. It might be really annoying but the basic principal isn't hard. Weaken the barrier, use a spell to track. Pretty major flaw.


All this is of course besides, that the whole point of summoning is to call something to you, im sure that would be of great help to pull something nasty over to whatever corner of the never you might be hiding in. /sarcasm
He does that all the time and it works quite well. First book newbie sorcerer can call up a demon no trouble. Second book Dresden can bind a demon. Third book he summons up the Nightmare at reduced strength, and doesn't get killed. In the seventh book he calls up the super-ghost of the dino. Also the Erlking. He controls the dino and would have trapped the Erlking if not sabotaged. (or would have had he not been interrupted.) Oh and the massive amounts of summonings the necromancers do. In turn coat Binder (not even strong enough to be a wizard) binds a whole army of nasty things, still without ill effect. And of course in changes Dresden literally summons up a whole book full of spirits.
Really the only time summonings seem to turn bad on people is when someone sabotages them.

See the problem in a fight between these two groups is one of them can explode your heart from anywhere and hide in another dimension and one needs to be up close. In a fight between Batman and co. and the Dresden and co. Batman will have a satellite dropped on his house. And that is if they are playing like they do in the books. If its all-out Batman will have a satellite dropped on his house retroactively.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'd like to point out that Captain Marvel has resisted the influences of the Spear of Destiny, which is an incredibly potent artifact that made a basic meat puppet of just about everyone else who even touched it. Let's also not forget that Neron caused the entire Underworld: Unleashed event just to try and obtain Marvel's soul because it was the most pure and incorruptable one in all of creation.

[Soras Teva Gee]

If you get rid of the super speed by letting team wizard know of it early and set up a potion or something to counter it, I'd give a fight between the Justice League and just McCoy about even odds. He's the only wizard that can break the seven laws of magic and he's gotten damn good at it.

He could pretty easily take out the whole of the cartoon Justice League with the death spell he was using in Changes and that's only scratching the surface of his power. Super speed is really the only thing that could take him out if he didn't prepare for it, although super speed has always been under used in superhero stories as it's pretty much an instant win against anyone without it.

If McCoy is going to casually use a dangerous (to him) life draining spell right off the bat against a mere seven people then the Justice League gets to use super-speed to render him bloody paste before he even brings out the spell.

And since you mentioned DCAU means you have anit-magic-mace wielder Hawkgirl is there. Not exactly a good tactical choice since it covers a whole range of magic right there.

[Tanuki Tales]

If McCoy is going to casually use a dangerous (to him) life draining spell right off the bat against a mere seven people then the Justice League gets to use super-speed to render him bloody paste before he even brings out the spell.

And since you mentioned DCAU means you have anit-magic-mace wielder Hawkgirl is there. Not exactly a good tactical choice since it covers a whole range of magic right there.

And that's DCAU, which is significantly slower and weaker than the DCU proper.

[Mewtarthio]

Right! I forgot about that. Its why the Nightmare/ghost in Grave Peril wasn't able to do any damage! And how in that first book the toad demon couldn't threaten Susan and Harry when they were nice and safe at home./sarcasm

The Nightmare took on the form of its victims' trusted friends and asked for an invite, negating the threshold's protection. The toad demon's not a very good example of a strong threshold assault, as Harry's apartment doesn't have a very strong threshold anyway. Granted, few superheroes have the healthy family life necessary to get much supernatural protection (though Batman himself, who the topic's ostensibly about, is probably safe enough simply because Wayne Manor's been in the family for decades), but they've also set up plenty of other defenses. Harry didn't start warding his home in earnest before the demonic intrusion.

[Erts]

If you get rid of the super speed by letting team wizard know of it early and set up a potion or something to counter it, I'd give a fight between the Justice League and just McCoy about even odds. He's the only wizard that can break the seven laws of magic and he's gotten damn good at it.

Also regarding Captain Marvel, you better believe McCoy uses high order magic. Plus Marvel is a teenage boy so Lara Raith would have him begging to be eaten alive.

Anyway I think a teem with McCoy, Dresden, and the Archive on it could beat just about any Justice League team.

Common misconception on the emotional level of a teenager. The Captain is not. Billy Batson is. The Captain resisted the Spear of Destiny. I think he can handle Lara.
And the potion doesn't speed him up enough to match the near light speeds of Supes and Flash. Or Mach 10. It made Harry around twice as fast in the books. Well, he still is hundreds of of times slower then Captain Marvel.
Oh, and Zeus protects Captain Marvel. A being equal with Mab is protecting him, as well as various other beings like Mercury, and Atlas. Remember the descriptions of a god in Changes? When Harry talks to Donar, and is crushed under his power? It's like that. Marvel is a champion of Zeus.

Just read the DCU wiki entry on Superman's abilities. And then read the rest of them.

EDIT: Damnit, I just saw that I was swordsage'd on the Spear of Destiny.

[Lamech]

Just read the DCU wiki entry on Superman's abilities. And then read the rest of them.Magic affects the guy normally. This guy is pretty much asking to be ripped to shreds by some form of spirit. Plus any sort of nasty spell should be great, something to cut off the air flow, something to

Captain Marvel derives all of his power from magic. Any Dresden-verse human or magical nasty can cut him off from his power source with a circle. Since he has no ways to detect veils... wait till he walks into a circle (roundabouts are popular these days, cut him off and dead. Or McCoy can interfere with magic with out even a connection like in Blood Rites. Or you know... shoot the kid form in the face. He can also be forced out by lighting. Nasty if he can get up and hit, but no reason to give him the chance.

The martian manhunter is flameable...
The flash would be nasty, but a good binding spell should stop him. Or the exploding heart type spells, but he's a human.
The green lantern is a man behind the super ring. Exploding heart anyone? Although again human.
Aquaman is aquaman...
Does wonder woman still have the become helpless if bound thing? Because if she does the spell Dresden used on the laup gauru should work great.

[Erts]

Magic affects the guy normally. This guy is pretty much asking to be ripped to shreds by some form of spirit. Plus any sort of nasty spell should be great, something to cut off the air flow, something to


Of course it does. But you won't have time. Because he will already have smashed you to a pulp, or lit everything on fire for miles around you. Speed of light is how fast he moves, and faster than it if he wants to.

[Tanuki Tales]

Magic affects the guy normally. This guy is pretty much asking to be ripped to shreds by some form of spirit. Plus any sort of nasty spell should be great, something to cut off the air flow, something to [quote]

Yes, it's not like he hasn't fought and defeated mages before. Or even taken on and defeated Hell Goddesses in their own realms. Just a normal guy with superhuman strength, speed and extreme willpower.

[quote]Captain Marvel derives all of his power from magic. Any Dresden-verse human or magical nasty can cut him off from his power source with a circle. Since he has no ways to detect veils... wait till he walks into a circle (roundabouts are popular these days, cut him off and dead. Or McCoy can interfere with magic with out even a connection like in Blood Rites. Or you know... shoot the kid form in the face. He can also be forced out by lighting. Nasty if he can get up and hit, but no reason to give him the chance.

Correction, he derives all his powers from several deities who grant him his power as divine gifts. He is a "being of magic" yes, but its not like he's just using some bargain bin source for all of his power.


The martian manhunter is flameable...

To flames with emotional significance. He still is the superhuman swiss army knife that is the world's most powerful telepath.


The flash would be nasty, but a good binding spell should stop him. Or the exploding heart type spells, but he's a human.

That requires actually catching him. He moves and reacts at near to lightspeeds.


The green lantern is a man behind the super ring. Exploding heart anyone? Although again human.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that kind of magic usually require possessing a part of the person? I'd say more but I need to brush up on how regular GLs work with magic types.


Aquaman is aquaman...

A superhumanly strong, fast and durable king who is both a decent if limited telepath and also an accomplished hydromancer?


Does wonder woman still have the become helpless if bound thing? Because if she does the spell Dresden used on the laup gauru should work great.

Pretty sure that went out with Golden age.

[Erts]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that kind of magic usually require possessing a part of the person? I'd say more but I need to brush up on how regular GLs work with magic types.


No, not in Dresdenverse. But the ring creates an aura that protects the wearer from physical harm like this, only direct blows of immense power heart the bearer when the ring is activated.

[Tanuki Tales]

No, not in Dresdenverse. But the ring creates an aura that protects the wearer from physical harm like this, only direct blows of immense power heart the bearer when the ring is activated.

I would think as much since the Oans originally went to war with Magic as a whole and gathered it all up to banish it inside of the Starheart (which the original Green Lantern is empowered by) but I didn't want to say anything until finding scans.


Edit: I just realized something. If we're allowed to bring in Hourman, this becomes a total curbstomp. (Not accounting for an unrestricted Phantom Stranger, Seven Soldiers Zatanna or Anti-Life Energy Etrigan of course.)

[Lamech]

Yes, it's not like he hasn't fought and defeated mages before. Or even taken on and defeated Hell Goddesses in their own realms. Just a normal guy with superhuman strength, speed and extreme willpower. Who still needs to breathe. And presumably needs things like his heart. And they will go for a kill since he isn't a human.



Correction, he derives all his powers from several deities who grant him his power as divine gifts. He is a "being of magic" yes, but its not like he's just using some bargain bin source for all of his power. He's using some source that isn't in the circle. Its gonna get cut off.


To flames with emotional significance. He still is the superhuman swiss army knife that is the world's most powerful telepath.I thought it was just plot significant flames. Wikipedia said it was horribly inconstant. But don't worry magic is powered by emotion. Can't get much more emotionally significant then that. (Also the whole he's a telepath thing would instantly convince Dresden and co. he's a crazy super-monster.)


That requires actually catching him. He moves and reacts at near to lightspeeds.Nope. One of the major advantages of the Dresden-verse is they do not need to catch people. See the binding of the super-werewolf in book 2


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that kind of magic usually require possessing a part of the person? I'd say more but I need to brush up on how regular GLs work with magic types.Nope. It makes it easier, but not needed. If you don't have a piece of the person you could try a doll (what was used for the binding on the super-werewolf IIRC.), or even go with mental focus. (Although just the mental focus is much harder.)


Pretty sure that went out with Golden age.
Damn.


A superhumanly strong, fast and durable king who is both a decent if limited telepath and also an accomplished hydromancer?So aquaman being worthless went out with the golden age too then?

[Erts]

Cough,


Of course it does. But you won't have time. Because he will already have smashed you to a pulp, or lit everything on fire for miles around you. Speed of light is how fast he moves, and faster than it if he wants to.

Superman and Marvel make this pointless. Lightspeed and all.

[Tanuki Tales]

Who still needs to breathe. And presumably needs things like his heart. And they will go for a kill since he isn't a human.

And how do they know he isn't human? Unless I missed an extra-stipulation somewhere, Dresden and Batman only have vague common knowledge on each other, not all their allies.

Besides, Superman is still superhumanly durable.


He's using some source that isn't in the circle. Its gonna get cut off.

Are you insinuating that even McCoy has the potency to overpower Zeus, let alone all the Gods who grant Marvel his power? Because I believe it was already mentioned that when an actual god was shown in Dresden that it kind of crushed him (him being Dresden) like an ant.


I thought it was just plot significant flames. Wikipedia said it was horribly inconstant. But don't worry magic is powered by emotion. Can't get much more emotionally significant then that. (Also the whole he's a telepath thing would instantly convince Dresden and co. he's a crazy super-monster.)

Yes, magic may be fueled by emotion, but that doesn't mean that the flames conjured by that magic has emotional significance.

And I was perusing over the Laws of Magic last night and it goes out of its way to explain in the Third Law that the White Council hasn't even bothered to get close enough to mind magic to formulate defenses against it. Then the Fourth Law mentions how dangerous and corruptive mental manipulation magic is on both the user and the target.

J'onn has none of those flaws or limitations and it sounds like he'd have a pretty major advantage on the Dresden crew if he just laid down a psi-assault of the kind that could knock Superman for a loop on the enemy side.

Let's see magic being cast if all the mages think they're infants.


Nope. One of the major advantages of the Dresden-verse is they do not need to catch people. See the binding of the super-werewolf in book 2

Mind explaining? Because novels aren't like comic books; you can't just look up scans or open a single issue to verify something, you have to comb through hundreds of pages of text.


Nope. It makes it easier, but not needed. If you don't have a piece of the person you could try a doll (what was used for the binding on the super-werewolf IIRC.), or even go with mental focus. (Although just the mental focus is much harder.)

And can this be realistically done in the middle of a combat zone where a lot of your enemies can move at near light speeds or have the strength to move mountains or energy powers capable of cooking entire cities from orbit?


Damn.
So aquaman being worthless went out with the golden age too then?

Oh, definitely. Aquaman is a complete badass these days.

[Erts]

And how do they know he isn't human? Unless I missed an extra-stipulation somewhere, Dresden and Batman only have vague common knowledge on each other, not all their allies.



I don't think that Superman needs to breathe anymore in comics. Only really at the beginning of the Modern Age and in the animated series does he need to breathe. Just one example I can think of which I just reread is in Infinite Crisis, where Superman flies to Oa in the end.



Besides, Superman is still superhumanly durable.

Yeah, it would take massive amounts of energy to rip Superman's heart out.



Oh, definitely. Aquaman is a complete badass these days.
Morrison has spoken. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl3ZZaXLEx0)

[Mikeavelli]

... move at near light speeds ...

They don't move that fast, not in regular combat anyways. Opponents to these heroes regularly do the things suggested in this thread, hitting the superheroes with magical and mundane attacks within a time period feasible for normal humans.

As for McCoy vs. Superman, McCoy knows at least one death spell. As in, wave his staff, and people die, with no visible mechanism behind it.

McCoy and a few of his Grey Council buddies do indeed have the potency to go toe to toe with godlike creatures in the Dresdenverse.



McCoy and his buddies warp in at the climax of Changes, and start beating down the armies of the Lords of the Outer Night. Rather than fight him and the Grey Council directly, they retreat and start up the ritual that would end up killing McCoy indirectly.


Superman is Vulnerable to Magic.

[The Glyphstone]

Are you insinuating that even McCoy has the potency to overpower Zeus, let alone all the Gods who grant Marvel his power? Because I believe it was already mentioned that when an actual god was shown in Dresden that it kind of crushed him (him being Dresden) like an ant.



If McCoy took on Zeus face-to-face at the summit of Mount Olympus, yes, Zeus would squash him flat. Vaddurung even specifically says he could only muster that force because he was at the very center of his power, and would be far weaker anywhere else. McCoy doesn't have to fight Zeus directly, only the fraction of godly juice he's feeding into Marvel.

[Lamech]

If McCoy took on Zeus face-to-face at the summit of Mount Olympus, yes, Zeus would squash him flat. Vaddurung even specifically says he could only muster that force because he was at the very center of his power, and would be far weaker anywhere else. McCoy doesn't have to fight Zeus directly, only the fraction of godly juice he's feeding into Marvel.
More to the point its not fighting Zeus; its using a magic circle to cut off magic from an area. Look Butters, a normal human, doesn't have the strength to fight off a weak ghost, let alone an army of super-ghosts. Yet he can protect himself with a magic circle against that army of super ghosts and be just fine.


Mind explaining? Because novels aren't like comic books; you can't just look up scans or open a single issue to verify something, you have to comb through hundreds of pages of text.The super-werewolf (I forget its name) was running around the police HQ eating people. Harry gets a wolf/dog doll does a full circle casting and places a binding spell on the super-werewolf. He didn't need to aim the spell at anything. It just went and hit the werewolf.


And can this be realistically done in the middle of a combat zone where a lot of your enemies can move at near light speeds or have the strength to move mountains or energy powers capable of cooking entire cities from orbit?No. It CAN however be done from say... not the combat zone. They are fully capable of hiding under veils. Or wards that hit for death.

And how do they know he isn't human? Unless I missed an extra-stipulation somewhere, Dresden and Batman only have vague common knowledge on each other, not all their allies.Wikipedia? If its the Mab-McCoy-Dresden team Mab being able to kill superman will be a dead give away too.

[Kageru]

Honestly superheroes with superpowers are on a different powerlevel than most people in the dresden verse.
As an comparsion do you think the vampires in the Dresden Verse are harmless in a fight? A couple vampires are a threat to Dresden, nothing he can't overcome but a threat. The red court was quite successful in their fight against the wizards and in a fight they mostly use speed and strength + their durability. Superman is much fast, Superman is much stronger and Superman can take much more damage. If superheroes really use the powers they are supposed to have they will rip wizards on Dresdens level apart without giving them a chance to counter attack. And Dresden is a powerful wizard. Sure the senior council is stronger but they share a fundamental weakness with him, they would die from a single hit from a superpowered individual. And a superpowered superhero who also has a highlevel of superspeed can reach them before they can do anything (or notice that they are attacked).
Mind magic might work against some of their enemies but someone like Superman still has his willpower to defend himself and mind magic isn't instant and probably doesn't work from the other side of the planet-> he can just find the enemy with his super senses and knock them out.
Honestly a matchup between batman and Dresden is interesting, a match between superheroes with actual powers and Dresden verse wizards is ridiculous.
(But i am ignoring one fact:Overpowered heroes often neglect to use their powers to their full extent because the writers gave them more powers than the plot can handle. Especially superspeed since efficient use of superspeed makes it hard to have an enemy without it.)

[lord_khaine]

He says its weaker, not that it doesn't exist. And how many of these people have full-fledged houses that they live in normally, don't use as say... a place of business and all the other things not to screw up a threshold? Also non-flammable. Flammable house can be set on fire.

Actualy i would put it the other way around, i dont think there are any of the core members of JLA that dont have a house/appartment with a propper threshold (besides Aquaman, but i suspect his home is wardet at least as heavily as the White council).

Ok, well as an example of just what a i would considder a normal strength threshold can do, in White night, when Harry is forced to cross one, it weakend him to a dregree where he couldnt use magic (he was smart enough to have brought a pistol and a dog though), and of all his allies, Harry is one of those affected the least by a threshold.

Anyway, that was a normal appartment, Flash could defeat most of the people Harry could call on just by running a bit around the city with them.


They would have to simply find the people in the Nevernever. It might be really annoying but the basic principal isn't hard. Weaken the barrier, use a spell to track. Pretty major flaw.

It was still complicated enough that Bob would not think about it at first, and all the core JLA members have been involved in fights in the dreamscape before.


He does that all the time and it works quite well. First book newbie sorcerer can call up a demon no trouble. Second book Dresden can bind a demon. Third book he summons up the Nightmare at reduced strength, and doesn't get killed. In the seventh book he calls up the super-ghost of the dino. Also the Erlking. He controls the dino and would have trapped the Erlking if not sabotaged. (or would have had he not been interrupted.) Oh and the massive amounts of summonings the necromancers do. In turn coat Binder (not even strong enough to be a wizard) binds a whole army of nasty things, still without ill effect. And of course in changes Dresden literally summons up a whole book full of spirits.
Really the only time summonings seem to turn bad on people is when someone sabotages them.

No, what i mean was that you call those things to where you are, if you want them to attack someone on earth, then you have to do the summoning on earth.


See the problem in a fight between these two groups is one of them can explode your heart from anywhere and hide in another dimension and one needs to be up close. In a fight between Batman and co. and the Dresden and co. Batman will have a satellite dropped on his house. And that is if they are playing like they do in the books. If its all-out Batman will have a satellite dropped on his house retroactively.

Unfortunately, exploding peoples heart requires a material link, something thats not allways quite easy to do.
And if someone starts moving satelites around, superman/GL/MM/WW/SE (SomeElse) would cach it before it even reached the stratosfeare.

As for the retroactive part, then it would most likely be caught retroactive as well, not to mention that we dont even know if thats possible, the limits of Timetravel has not been explored in the Dresdenverse yet, but it is something the JLA has access to as well.



Quote:
The flash would be nasty, but a good binding spell should stop him. Or the exploding heart type spells, but he's a human.
That requires actually catching him. He moves and reacts at near to lightspeeds.

Actualy, he has on several occasions moved faster than lightspeed :smallsmile:


No, not in Dresdenverse. But the ring creates an aura that protects the wearer from physical harm like this, only direct blows of immense power heart the bearer when the ring is activated.

Actualy, if you want to do it the save way, and remove his heart though thaumathurgy from a safe distance, then you need a material link.

Its only if you do it though evocation that you dont need the link, but thats pretty close range.


Nope. One of the major advantages of the Dresden-verse is they do not need to catch people. See the binding of the super-werewolf in book 2
Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that kind of magic usually require possessing a part of the person? I'd say more but I need to brush up on how regular GLs work with magic types.
Nope. It makes it easier, but not needed. If you don't have a piece of the person you could try a doll (what was used for the binding on the super-werewolf IIRC.), or even go with mental focus. (Although just the mental focus is much harder.)

Ahh, Dresden had the most poten form of material link he could wish for there, some of its blood.

And you do need some sort of material link if you want to hit someone with thaumathurgy.

Edit.


They don't move that fast, not in regular combat anyways. Opponents to these heroes regularly do the things suggested in this thread, hitting the superheroes with magical and mundane attacks within a time period feasible for normal humans.

As for McCoy vs. Superman, McCoy knows at least one death spell. As in, wave his staff, and people die, with no visible mechanism behind it.

It is a very potent spell McCoy seems to be using, that apperently drains the life of his opponents
Though there got to be some sort of disadvantage to it as well, since we havent seen any of the bad guys use it so far, and they have includet some quite potent mages.

Also, the time it takes to cast it would still let Superman or Flash hit him a 10-50 times.

As for the spoiler.

To start with it seemed like one of those Buddies McCoy had brought along were Odin...

And also, apperently the Lords of Outer Night wasnt that godlike again, considering how badly they did in the fight.


Superman is Vulnerable to Magic.

Actualy this isnt quite true, its just that most sorts of magic apperently bypass his personal forcefield, he still has a much denser bodystructure though, and even with magic he is much harder to kill than a normal person.


More to the point its not fighting Zeus; its using a magic circle to cut off magic from an area. Look Butters, a normal human, doesn't have the strength to fight off a weak ghost, let alone an army of super-ghosts. Yet he can protect himself with a magic circle against that army of super ghosts and be just fine.

It seems there is some confusion here, as 2 means of shutting down magic is being discussed.

the first one is using a magic circle to cut something from its source of magic, this would work against Captain Marvel when he isnt moving around at the speed of sound, if Zeus is continualy feeding him power.

It wont work however, if Zeus just gives him a huge blast of magic, and then goes back to whoring around with young girls (at least thats what the historical Zeus does in his spare time :smalltongue: )

The second way we have seen, is McCoy that shuts down the magic of another person, though all he could do then was to limit what sort of magic the person in question could throw around.

His target then were also a creature of magic, and it didnt sound like what McCoy were doing would make her any less strong, durable or visible.


No. It CAN however be done from say... not the combat zone. They are fully capable of hiding under veils. Or wards that hit for death.

The veils we have seen so far only hide you from the visible spectre of light though, as seen when Molly tries to hide from the werewolfes.

And there are people in JLA with much better senses.


Wikipedia? If its the Mab-McCoy-Dresden team Mab being able to kill superman will be a dead give away too.

Firstly though, the only place you will ever find Mab is on team Mab, it would be very out of character for her to enter combat directly.

Even then, though i would give her decent odds, her victory is in no way a certaincy, Superman has fought both Gods, Angels and Deamons before, and lived to not tell the tale.

[Lamech]

Actualy i would put it the other way around, i dont think there are any of the core members of JLA that dont have a house/appartment with a propper threshold (besides Aquaman, but i suspect his home is wardet at least as heavily as the White council).... They aren't even all human.


It was still complicated enough that Bob would not think about it at first, and all the core JLA members have been involved in fights in the dreamscape before.But he figured it out when he saw it happening.



No, what i mean was that you call those things to where you are, if you want them to attack someone on earth, then you have to do the summoning on earth.Or open a portal for 2 seconds after you've given whatever orders. Or if your Mab just send whatever you want sent from the Nevernever.


Actualy, if you want to do it the save way, and remove his heart though thaumathurgy from a safe distance, then you need a material link.It becomes harder not impossible. And really do these guys scrub everything for genetic material?



It is a very potent spell McCoy seems to be using, that apperently drains the life of his opponents
Though there got to be some sort of disadvantage to it as well, since we havent seen any of the bad guys use it so far, and they have includet some quite potent mages.Dude he's on the senior council. He's one of the most powerful wizards around. Its possible none of the bad guys have done because they weren't capable enough to pull it off.


Also, the time it takes to cast it would still let Superman or Flash hit him a 10-50 times.
Well its a good thing powerful wizards have precognition and can simply shoot first.


Actualy this isnt quite true, its just that most sorts of magic apperently bypass his personal forcefield, he still has a much denser bodystructure though, and even with magic he is much harder to kill than a normal person.Wikipedia says it affects him normally.


The second way we have seen, is McCoy that shuts down the magic of another person, though all he could do then was to limit what sort of magic the person in question could throw around.
He didn't have any sort of link. If he actually had one he could have been much more effective. Dresden has done the more effective kind. (Grave Peril).


The veils we have seen so far only hide you from the visible spectre of light though, as seen when Molly tries to hide from the werewolfes.

And there are people in JLA with much better senses.
What it blocks depends on the flavor of veil. Also we've seen veils block light. Occam's razor tells us its best to assume it blocks light, not specific flavors of light.
So what are these mystical senses?



Firstly though, the only place you will ever find Mab is on team Mab, it would be very out of character for her to enter combat directly.

Even then, though i would give her decent odds, her victory is in no way a certaincy, Superman has fought both Gods, Angels and Deamons before, and lived to not tell the tale.True Mab would be loathe to enter combat directly. Which is good because the main advantage of team Dresden is not needing to enter combat directly. Sending summons from the Nevernever, powering thaumturgy, giving Harry the mantle of the winter knight, sending Harry power are all much more what she would and could do.
And isn't dealing with supervillians and not giving them a chance to fire, using lethal force out of character for the whole justice league?

[lord_khaine]

... They aren't even all human.

To start with, we are not even sure if thats required.

And even so, those that are not human (or so close its the same) are Superman and Martian Manhunter.

Of those, Superman lives with a human, and MM should be able to take care of himself just fine...


But he figured it out when he saw it happening.


Yeah, if Bob actualy have to see it happen its still complicated.

And ill repeat, all the JLA veterans have dreamtime combat experience.


Or open a portal for 2 seconds after you've given whatever orders. Or if your Mab just send whatever you want sent from the Nevernever.

Yes, but setting up a propper circle is a job you dont want to rush, and it requires lots of rare components if you want to summon anything worth mentioning.

This is of course also ignoring that JLA should have enough mages at its disposal to enter the Newernewer.

And Mab isnt on team Dresden, she just uses him as a pawn once in a while.


It becomes harder not impossible. And really do these guys scrub everything for genetic material?

No, im pretty sure its been directly stated that you need a link for thaumathurgy, can you mention any case at all of it happening without?


Dude he's on the senior council. He's one of the most powerful wizards around. Its possible none of the bad guys have done because they weren't capable enough to pull it off.

Unlikely, Cowl has been estimatet to be at least as strong as McCoy, and he has been trying to kill harry.


Well its a good thing powerful wizards have precognition and can simply shoot first.

Its not something they have control off, all they get is random glimps of important future events and places, its nothing that will allow them to target a supersonic projectile.


Wikipedia says it affects him normally.

Yes, the dc wiki goes into a bit more details about it, but even though he is weaker against it, then he has still survived several attack from mystical sources.


He didn't have any sort of link. If he actually had one he could have been much more effective. Dresden has done the more effective kind. (Grave Peril).

Yes, but without a link the best thing McCoy could do was to hamper someone elses spellcasting, at the same time taking himself out of the battle, hardly an even trade.


What it blocks depends on the flavor of veil. Also we've seen veils block light. Occam's razor tells us its best to assume it blocks light, not specific flavors of light.
So what are these mystical senses?

Smell, hearing, infrared, telepathic scan just to start with?


True Mab would be loathe to enter combat directly. Which is good because the main advantage of team Dresden is not needing to enter combat directly. Sending summons from the Nevernever, powering thaumturgy, giving Harry the mantle of the winter knight, sending Harry power are all much more what she would and could do.
And isn't dealing with supervillians and not giving them a chance to fire, using lethal force out of character for the whole justice league?

They dont need to use lethal force to knock a normal human out, its something just about all the members of JLA seems to have lots of training in.

And no, thats not what Mab would do, the only thing she would do there, is to make Harry her knight, because that would make him belong to her.

We do know whats nececary before Harry would make that choice though, and its not something thats on the line here.

And even if Harry were to become a Knight, then he would run the risk of the summer Knight being sent to oppose him on principle.

[Lord Loss]

Perhaps we should return to Harry Dresden vs. Batman, as opposed to Justice League vs. Dresden-verse, because the Dresden-verse would probably get stomped if we exclude entities that we don't know much about, like the archangels and whatnot, and even then they'd get creamed (probably).

[The Glyphstone]

Perhaps we should return to Harry Dresden vs. Batman, as opposed to Justice League vs. Dresden-verse, because the Dresden-verse would probably get stomped if we exclude entities that we don't know much about, like the archangels and whatnot, and even then they'd get creamed (probably).

The problem with including those entities we don't know much about wanders towards Inappropriate Topics, and the nature of Sufficiently Advanced/Magical versus true omnipotence (even the strongest Gods of the DCverse fall into the former category, for the most part, while the status of such in Dresdenverse is completely unknown).


Still, let's get back to the small scale fighting, for that exact reason; this huge thread derail solves nothing, really.

Last up on the block was if the fight outcomes change when Batman gets Robin as backup and Harry has Molly (we got distracted arguing over who was the Robin-analogue, I believe).

[Tanuki Tales]

Just to say for one final bit:

If Dresden gets beings like Mab then Batman gets Hourman, Anti-Life Entity Etrigan, Seven Soldiers Zatanna, Day of Vengeance Captain Marvel and unrestricted Phantom Stranger.

[Erts]

Last up on the block was if the fight outcomes change when Batman gets Robin as backup and Harry has Molly (we got distracted arguing over who was the Robin-analogue, I believe).

I don't think there is one. Harry has allies, and an apprentice, but it only in the world of superhero comics do you take a youth alongside you to battle dangerous criminals instead of just teaching them how to. Trial by fire.
I think an even more important question is what Harry it is. As in, what book.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think there is one. Harry has allies, and an apprentice, but it only in the world of superhero comics do you take a youth alongside you to battle dangerous criminals instead of just teaching them how to. Trial by fire.
I think an even more important question is what Harry it is. As in, what book.

Didn't the OP say it was Harry at the end of Small Favors? Pre-Turn Coat and pre-Changes?

[Erts]

Didn't the OP say it was Harry at the end of Small Favors? Pre-Turn Coat and pre-Changes?

I.... dramatic drumroll
AM THE OP! dundundun
Oh, you mean the original post, not poster.... Well that can be confusing...

Yes, I remember what I said, but I'm not sure if that is the right version to use. I did it because of no Demonreach and such.
Oh, yeah, and no allies... Because it gets ridiculous quite quickly.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, end of Small Favors is the best place to put it - though even after Turn Coat wouldn't be a huge deal; Harry can't really camp on Demonreach forever if he wants to run his business, and his Intellectus doesn't extend past its shores.

Any point during Changes wouldn't work though. After all,

Mac uses complete sentences!

[Tazar]

Still no question in my mind that Molly's usefulness far outstrips Robin, she can make herself and Dresden virtually invisible and snap minds at will. Robin doesn't bring anything new to the table, he's just Batman except crappier.

[random11]

A bit off topic, but because the subject of allies was brought, I have a question about Batman and allies.

When it comes to Harry, the story makes it very clear why he doesn't call his strong allies most of the time.
Kinkaid requires money which Harry doesn't have.
It's not recommended to owe favors to the Sidth, especially not to the queens.
Groups such as Marcone and the white vampire court will not assist unless they have a common enemy and a strong motivation to fight with him.
The white council, out of very good reasons, will not assist unless the rules of magic are broken.
The knights of the cross are sometimes away, unless there is a specific need for them around.

What about Batman?
Maybe other than pride and the requirements to have a good story, does he have any special reason not to call his many allies to assist him?

[The Glyphstone]

Plot?

It's actually a better answer than you might think. Bats doesn't call in Superman to help him clean up street muggings; if Bruce needs Clark's help, it's with something major he can't beat on his own. Thus, if Superman or any other member of the JL is getting involved in this Bats vs. Dresden fight, it means Dresden is too much for Bats to handle by himself.

[Holocron Coder]

Yes, but setting up a propper circle is a job you dont want to rush, and it requires lots of rare components if you want to summon anything worth mentioning.


Not actually correct.

In Changes, Harry summons first the Archangel Uriel, then the Queen of Air and Darkness, Mab, while paralyzed (in a church cathedral).

As they say a lot in the books, the items help frame things easier, but aren't technically necessary at all.