Need help with a Fighter

[GrinningDemon]

I'm wanting to make a truely devestating fighter build and I want to get two extra feats in the beginning so I was going to take two flaws. I'm thinking of taking shaky since it only gives me a -2 to my ranged attacks. But I'm trying to think of another one or maybe a better one. I took Toughness, Improved unarmed strike (so I'm always armed), Weapon focus Long sword. Any help beyond the 2 flaws would be fantastic! :smallbiggrin:

[Zaq]

Hoo boy.

OK, we need to know what sources you have available, how married you are to having your character specifically reference PHB pg. 37, and how optimized your group is. All of these are very important.

[CodeRed]

Do you have access to/are able to play in your campaign the Tome of Battle? If so, any of the three base classes in there are INFINITELY better than the PHB Fighter.

Beyond that, Fighter is terrible for anything other than feats you need to accomplish your build (Dungeoncrasher, Hit and Run, and Dungeoncrasher excluded but those are really specific reasons to stay Fighter). Improved Unarmed Strike is a decent enough feat but I wouldn't take it unless your going to do something with it later on. In a situation where your unarmed, that 1d4 is most likely not going to make that big of a difference. As well, you can just wear a pair of gauntlets to get lethal unarmed strikes if disarmed. Toughness is a trap of a feat, do not take it. 3 HP is nothing at any level other than one.

What do you want your melee character to do? That's really going to make it easier to make suggestions. (Also, what books do you have access to? Knowing that allows people to make suggestions you can actually use.)

[Greenish]

Please specify the extent of devastation desired on the following scale:

|____________________________|____________________ ________|
Just a bit..................................Lots......... ..........Nobody wants to play with me.

[Xyk]

Power Attack? That's like the staple of most fighters I know.

[Hirax]

As a shot in the dark here's this. It's a tweaked version of something I posted the other day.

Be a goliath (Races of Stone) dragonborn (Races of the Dragon) for +4 con, +4 str, and -4 dex

Ranger2/barbarian1*/fighter2/warblade2**/bloodstorm blade4**
*pounce (Complete Champion ACF)+goliath substitution ability (Races of Stone)
**Tome of battle

Feats:
Flaw: imp bull rush
Flaw: spiked chain proficiency
1: power attack
F1: knockback (Races of Stone, free bull rush attempt against foe hit by power attack, but you don't move with enemy as name implies)
F2: dungeon crasher (Dungeonscape ACF, replaces feat, bonus damage when you bull rush an enemy)
3: extra rage (Complete Warrior)
6: Shock trooper (Complete Warrior, when you power attack on a charge, penalty is to your AC instead of attack bonus - obscenely good)
9: rampaging bull rush (Races of Stone, allow you to trip foes you just bull rushed)

[GrinningDemon]

Hey sorry I forgot somethings, I do have access to pretty much all books (3.5). My party is only 3 me (fighter), 1 bard, and a druid (first time player). I need my fighter to be able to carry the group so I need to be able to dish out hella amounts of damage and be able to surive just about anything.I did a quick change to him:

Feats: Toughness (because I need to be able to survive all combat in the early part of the camp) /Exotic weapon pro (bastard sword) /Weapon Focus (bastard sword) / Improved unarmed strike

Flaw: Shaky -2 ranged combat

Any and all feats you can suggest to make him an one man army is fantastic. I can take at least one more flaw to try and fit in another feat. Improved unarmed strike it really only in there for flavor and for him to never be unarmed. Any magic items that would be helpful I'm all ears I wanna build him around the bastard/katana.

[Hirax]

What level are you starting at? Any house rules we should know about? IE, are you using the skill system to the letter with regards to cross class skills?

[Imperial Psycho]

Well, for a start, Toughness and Weapon Focus are pretty weak feats. And the Bastard sword generally isn't worth the Exotic Weapon Prof. But that last one is up to you.


If you really want to be dealing a lot of damage, you need a 2 handed weapon, and Power Attack.

[Asheram]

Hey sorry I forgot somethings, I do have access to pretty much all books (3.5). My party is only 3 me (fighter), 1 bard, and a druid (first time player). I need my fighter to be able to carry the group so I need to be able to dish out hella amounts of damage and be able to surive just about anything.I did a quick change to him:


Be very careful about this, mon.
There's a fine balance between "carrying the group" (which should (in theory) never be needed) and "Taking all the fun away from the rest of the party."

Ask instead your GM to adapt the campaign to the players.

[GrinningDemon]

there aren't any house rules so its to the letter on cross skills and stuff like that, we're starting at level 1

[The Mister Guy]

Well, if you're not totally set on fighter, go with either Warblade, or Barbarian/Frenzied Bezerker. In the case of Brb/Bzrkr you can deal more than 1200 damage at level 16. In one round.

[CodeRed]

Go Warblade or Crusader. Tome of Battle really helps catch melee closer into contention with spellcasters (but still not close at all) in power level while also allowing you to do cool effects throughout combat. If you don't want to just be "move into melee this turn, full-attack" the entire game, I'd really go with a ToB class.

I'd really suggest the Crusader as it has some nifty class abilities and powers that will really help in your group such as healing and damage reduction. For example at lvl 1 you can get the stance Iron Guard's Glare to make your opponent focus on you by giving him -4 on attack rolls against your allies. Then when you take damage you can soak it with the DR - /5 strike or heal it back with a healing strike.

As to feats, seriously, DO NOT take Toughness. You get a very limited number of feats in this game and for melee characters a ton of your power is going to come from your feat selection. That 3hp means absolutely nothing in the long run. A bastard sword (1h) with a shield at first level isn't a bad idea as it can help with AC at the low levels when AC actually matters but I'd turn it into a Dancing Shield as soon as possible so you can start two-handing that bastard sword. Power Attack is a must for any kind of melee character and its much better when you use a 2 handed weapon. Improved Unarmed Strike isn't too terribly useful unless your going to spend more feats/options on it later down the road. (Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick in the Tome of Battle are decent feats to take with it later on.)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hey sorry I forgot somethings, I do have access to pretty much all books (3.5). My party is only 3 me (fighter), 1 bard, and a druid (first time player). I need my fighter to be able to carry the group so I need to be able to dish out hella amounts of damage and be able to surive just about anything.I did a quick change to him:

Feats: Toughness (because I need to be able to survive all combat in the early part of the camp) /Exotic weapon pro (bastard sword) /Weapon Focus (bastard sword) / Improved unarmed strike

Flaw: Shaky -2 ranged combat

Any and all feats you can suggest to make him an one man army is fantastic. I can take at least one more flaw to try and fit in another feat. Improved unarmed strike it really only in there for flavor and for him to never be unarmed. Any magic items that would be helpful I'm all ears I wanna build him around the bastard/katana.

Scrap all the feats except improved unarmed strike. Instead, take combat reflexes, combat expertise, and improved trip. Wield a guisarme.

This is probably as close as you can get to being a one man army at first level, unless you're a warblade or crusader.

[GrinningDemon]

Thanks guys that really helped me with some ideas on the direction and way to build this fighter.

[Ozymandias]

If you really want to use a katana/bastard sword, just do so as a martial weapon (i.e. 2 handed). You save a feat, get all the two handed goodness, and lose one damage (on average, compared to greatsword) per hit. Then take power attack, etc.

Reach/notfighter is still more effective, though.

Side-note: Can you take weapon focus for a bastard sword you aren't proficient with? "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon" (SRD). So while using it as such he is proficient with it (if he is proficient with all martial weapons). Would this count as proficiency for the weapon focus feat? Of course even if that is the case it stops being focused-on when he uses it in one hand.

[Archwizard]

Side-note: Can you take weapon focus for a bastard sword you aren't proficient with? "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon" (SRD). So while using it as such he is proficient with it (if he is proficient with all martial weapons). Would this count as proficiency for the weapon focus feat? Of course even if that is the case it stops being focused-on when he uses it in one hand.

I would rule yes.

As far as the fighter build goes, I agree with ditch all those feats.

I prefer two-wielding battleaxes (I think it's possible to get this with greataxes too) for fun. I forget the exact build, but with Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior), Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer), Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc etc etc, you can get a pretty nasty build going.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I would rule yes.

As far as the fighter build goes, I agree with ditch all those feats.

I prefer two-wielding battleaxes (I think it's possible to get this with greataxes too) for fun. I forget the exact build, but with Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior), Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer), Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc etc etc, you can get a pretty nasty build going.

This guy doesn't want something that looks awesome and is nasty at 20th level, this guy wants a fighter build that's optimized as much as possible to defend the other two.

Taking two weapon fighting will tax your feats as it is, you can't rely on subpar feats to boost your damage by two points (seriously, monkey grip and oversized two weapon fighting together basically come to two feats for a -2 attack, +2 damage). The weapon focus/specialization line is better, but still not even close to optimized.

[herrhauptmann]

Start with the Horizon Tripper as your base, then throw extra non-core stuff onto it. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

For your flaws, perhaps Murky-eyed would help too.
The Druid: He's a new player yes? Don't ruin his fun by telling him what to do in combat/game. If he asks for advice on using his spells, don't overwhelm him by quoting all of the OOTS forums.

If you really NEED to have Toughness, find out if you can retrain that to Improved toughness after level 3.

Personally I'm not so sure that Bastard sword is worth it. Especially if you're doing weapon+shield at level 1. Save your attack bonus, and a feat by using a longsword or other 1 handed weapon that you can use 2 handed when you wish. The slight damage boost you get vs longsword really doesn't seem worth it. Average damage 4.5+str per hit, or 5.5+str per hit.

[Archwizard]

This guy doesn't want something that looks awesome and is nasty at 20th level, this guy wants a fighter build that's optimized as much as possible to defend the other two.

Taking two weapon fighting will tax your feats as it is, you can't rely on subpar feats to boost your damage by two points (seriously, monkey grip and oversized two weapon fighting together basically come to two feats for a -2 attack, +2 damage). The weapon focus/specialization line is better, but still not even close to optimized.

You take feats that will lead up to that build. Also, part of the point is you get to double dip later feats. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (and each of the Greater ones) now count twice, as does Improved Critical. So your two feats 'wasted' now allow 5 feats to count twice.

Start with:
Monkey Grip
Power Attack
Improved Initiative
Weapon Focus: Battleaxe
Cleave

Wield a large battle axe, you start level 1 with +0 to hit, 2d6 damage, modified by Strength (so really, you should heave at least +2, 2d6+2).
That gives you average damage of 7 vs. 4.5 (without str). If you figure that each time that damage helps you drop an enemy to take advantage of the Cleave feat, there's another attack. Improved Initiative to help act as fast as possible in the round to help defend the others/kill the enemies.

Shrug, I'm sure it's not the most optimized build ever, but I think it's effective and fun. What isn't fun about the idea of dual-wielding battle axes?

[herrhauptmann]

You take feats that will lead up to that build. Also, part of the point is you get to double dip later feats. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (and each of the Greater ones) now count twice, as does Improved Critical. So your two feats 'wasted' now allow 5 feats to count twice.

Start with:
Monkey Grip
Power Attack
Improved Initiative
Weapon Focus: Battleaxe
Cleave

Wield a large battle axe, you start level 1 with +0 to hit, 2d6 damage, modified by Strength (so really, you should heave at least +2, 2d6+2).
That gives you average damage of 7 vs. 4.5 (without str). If you figure that each time that damage helps you drop an enemy to take advantage of the Cleave feat, there's another attack. Improved Initiative to help act as fast as possible in the round to help defend the others/kill the enemies.

Shrug, I'm sure it's not the most optimized build ever, but I think it's effective and fun. What isn't fun about the idea of dual-wielding battle axes?
Go for the large sized weapons when you can afford the strongarm bracers. With a weapon sized for you, you can actually hit the high AC enemies at low levels.
The problem with two weapon fighting, is that your damage output drops to nearly nothing compared to a two handed weapon. And the damage won't keep up unless you have sneak attack or something else. Your attack bonus is lower than someone fighting weapon and shield. So your average damage per round is even lower than the weapon/shield guy, because you're hitting less often.

[Elric VIII]

My recommendation, if you want Bastard Sword, is the Exoticist Fighter from Dragon 310. You lose martial weapon proficiency and your skill list changes a bit (you keep jump, tumble, balance, but lose ride and some others) and you gain proficiency with 4 exotic weapons of your choice. You gain feats as a normal Fighter, but your list is somewhat limited (the important ones are still there, but Shock Trooper would have to be a general feat)

I also put my word in for ToB with a dip into fighter.

[erikun]

If you insist on sticking with the Bastard Sword, you might want to check out the Exotic Weapon Master prestige class in the Complete Warrior(?) book. Some of the skill tricks are pretty handy. You might also want to consider (yes, I am going to recommend it) looking that the Samurai in the same book. It gives you a free Bastard Sword, and Samurai 2/Fighter 18 gets one more feat than Fighter 20. It isn't as good as a dozen other options, but a possibility if you want to stick with full-BAB melee classes.

As 4 feats, I would recommend Power Attack and Cleave first. PA won't get much use in the early levels, but Cleave will be beautiful at giving you extra attacks against goblins and kobolds. (Great Cleave is almost never worth it, though.) Weapon Focus isn't that great, but since you aren't going with trip/combat reflexes trickery, you'll probably have a few extra feats - and WF isn't bad at first level.

You are better off wielding the Bastard Sword in two hands than going sword/shield, unless you desperately need the AC. I think that Exotic Weapon Master requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency, which is a good enough reason to take it early, but there isn't much use for EWP otherwise.

Is there any reason why you need four feats at 1st level? Especially when you are considering Toughness and IAS?


If you want a really versatile melee character, I would recommend the Horizon Tripper build (mentioned above, found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415)) or something from Tome of Battle. The Crusader would be especially useful in your party, providing defense and healing so that your Bard and Druid can focus more on being a Bard and Druid (as opposed to healbots).

[GrinningDemon]

I have dropped the bastard sword for a long sword. I'm going with 5 feats first level w/ 2 draw backs which don't affect my melee abilities at all. I'm not gonna take toughness anymore because it is a waste. I'm thinking on taking 12 levels of fighter now and then crossing over to warblade. I wanted 12 levels so I can get to Greater weapon specialization.

[GrinningDemon]

[QUOTE=herrhauptmann;11189461]Start with the Horizon Tripper as your base, then throw extra non-core stuff onto it. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

The Druid: He's a new player yes? Don't ruin his fun by telling him what to do in combat/game. If he asks for advice on using his spells, don't overwhelm him by quoting all of the OOTS forums. QUOTE]

I'm not going to tell the Druid what to do at all unless she asks me, I'm making my character the way I am so I can hold off the bigger problems for them and if she makes a mistake its something I can cover for by protecting the character.

[Keld Denar]

Greater Weapon Spec is not worth it for a feat. At 12th level, a feat should give you more than +2 damage per hit. If you are desperate for a place to spend feats, take Weapon Spec, then take Melee Weapon Mastery, and abandon ship at that point. For 3 feats you'll get +3 hit/+4 damage. For 5 feats, you'd get +4 hit/+6 damage...a piddly increase.

Weapon Spec just isn't a very good feat, but it is ok if you are also taking Melee Weapon Mastery, which does give you a decent bonus for its expenditure.

[McSmack]

Is your heart set on Human? If you could manage to go warforged that would solve some of your issues.

You'd have more immunities than you can count.

Wouldn't need to eat/sleep/drink so you could constantly watch the party.

You'd have a natural slam attack so you wouldn't need IUS.

You could turn that feat around and pick up Mithril or Adamantine Body for a
free Mithril Breastplate or Adamantite full-plate equivalent.

Warforged get +2 Con so you could drop toughness and still have extra HP.

Samurai get Exotic Weapon Prof (katana aka bastard sword) for free at lvl 1.

Warforged Samarai could start out with adamantine full plate (DR 3/-), and a masterwork bastard sword for 0gp!

You'd only have one starting feat (which you used on Adamantine Body), but you're a robot samurai, it doesn't get much more badass than that.

Then you just go straight fighter or even better warblade from there.

This is how awesome your character would look!
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs5/i/2004/273/8/4/Samurai_Robot_Guy____thing_by_Legato895.jpg

[Keld Denar]

Eh, there were robot samurai in the movie Sucker Punch, and we all know how that turned out for them...

[Hiro Protagonest]

I have dropped the bastard sword for a long sword. I'm going with 5 feats first level w/ 2 draw backs which don't affect my melee abilities at all. I'm not gonna take toughness anymore because it is a waste. I'm thinking on taking 12 levels of fighter now and then crossing over to warblade. I wanted 12 levels so I can get to Greater weapon specialization.

You do know your warblade level counts as your fighter level -2 for the purpose of feats, right? Because if you desperately want greater weapon specialization (which is really subpar), you can get it at 15th level.

[herrhauptmann]

You do know your warblade level counts as your fighter level -2 for the purpose of feats, right? Because if you desperately want greater weapon specialization (which is really subpar), you can get it at 15th level.

Warblade 12 and Fighter 2 gets you the desired fighter level, and at the cost of just one IL. Take the fighter feats later when you qualify for some better feats, or earlier for a boost to your low level character.

[McSmack]

Eh, there were robot samurai in the movie Sucker Punch, and we all know how that turned out for them...

Those samurai were clearly poorly manufactured. Plus crazy chick dream robots don't count, everyone knows that.

[Greenish]

Warforged Samarai could start out with adamantine full plate (DR 3/-), and a masterwork bastard sword for 0gp!Adamantine Body gives DR 2/Adamantine. CW samurai doesn't get a free MW weapon (OA samurai does, but they don't start with bastard sword proficiency).