Alignment inheritance

[Zxo]

I know there's probably not enough information in OoTS to answer this, but do you think alignment in OoTSverse is genetic or determined by upbringing (or, third possibility, random, or decided by gods)? When I say genetic, I think of something a bit more complicated than duplicating one of the parents' alignment, but still logical, for example there could be dominant and recessive alignment components (similar to blood type inheritance patterns (http://mistupid.com/health/bloodinherit.htm)).

We have the Greenhilt family who are all LG except for one TN child (forgot her name), so the alignment is not always determined by who raised you. Thoughts?

[Thanatosia]

Wow, look at this Big o' can of worms someone left lying on the ground, i wonder what's inside? Lets open it and find out!

[Carry2]

Wow, look at this Big o' can of worms someone left lying on the ground, i wonder what's inside? Lets open it and find out!
There are worms.

[malloyd]

A false dichotomy. Why would you think there is a single, or even predominant cause?

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'd say all of the above, plus "who knows?".

[Mutant Sheep]

Everyone is French, because only French bodies make a good litter box. Space French.
THE CAT GOD DEMANDS IT! CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD!!! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE!!! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!!!
ALL HAIL THE DARK LORD SNUGGLES!!!!!

[Jay R]

It's about choices. As Roy was told (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), "I don't think my superiors would blink if I kicked your case over to the Neutral Good afterlife, but there's one factor preventing me.

"You're trying.

"You're trying to be Lawful Good.

People forget how crucial it is to keep trying, even if they screw up once now and then."

<snip>

"You, well ... Your record is full of grey spots, but you never stop working at iimproving it.

"That's what's important. To us, anyway."

[faustin]

So, Xykon´s parents were Chaotic Evil mass murderers too?)

[NerfTW]

I think it's a matter of choice, just like in the real world. Your upbringing will affect that, but it can change. Julia might not stay True Neutral. (I'd imagine that applies to most teenagers in the real world as well)

While alignment is something on their "character sheet", as it were, it's something that can be changed. As Jay R pointed out, the Deva tells Roy that it was his choice to go back and fix his mistake that kept him Lawful Good. If he had chosen to walk away, he'd be making the choice not to be Lawful Good anymore.

[t209]

Look at Elan, the bard, his dad is lawful evil and yet he's chaotic good.

[Menarker]

Well, one could make the opposite point then, saying that Elan embodied the traits and allignment of his mother, rather than his father. Elan was raised by his mother while Nale by the father, thus solidifying that possible argument.

That said, I don't believe allignment is genetic, although there are likely influences from being raised among peers and families of a particular group.

I could also wonder if genetics could behave like recessive or dominant traits akin to a situation of single good alligned character being born and raised in a family otherwise littered with totally evil members.

[MoonCat]

It is your own choice, but the choices of the people around you will affect your choices, just like in real life.

[Zxo]

If it is a choice, when do you make it and what is your status before you make the choice? Roy's little brother was in Celestia even though he seemed too young to be capable of any moral choices.

I do not deny choice, but its scope seems to be limited - a change from CE to LG is unlikely, CE to CN can happen - and something determines what you start from.

BTW Xykon's parents were not CE. SoD spoiler:

They sent a wizard to try to convince Xykon to change his ways and become a hero.

[The Dark Fiddler]

If it is a choice, when do you make it and what is your status before you make the choice?

You make the choice constantly as new circumstances arise, and before you make the choice you're whatever you were up until that point.



Roy's little brother was in Celestia even though he seemed too young to be capable of any moral choices.

I think there was a pretty popular theory that that was because a Lawful Good afterlife wouldn't split up a family like that just because the child died before being able to develop their own alignment.

[MoonCat]

If it is a choice, when do you make it and what is your status before you make the choice? Roy's little brother was in Celestia even though he seemed too young to be capable of any moral choices.

I do not deny choice, but its scope seems to be limited - a change from CE to LG is unlikely, CE to CN can happen - and something determines what you start from.

BTW Xykon's parents were not CE. SoD spoiler:

They sent a wizard to try to convince Xykon to change his ways and become a hero.

Exactly! Your argument is saying choice! If your entire nature is CE, it would be hard to become LG, whereas CN is much closer to your heart.

And Xykon was evil on his own, not inherited from his parents at all.

[faustin]

BTW Xykon's parents were not CE. SoD spoiler:


And Xykon was evil on his own, not inherited from his parents at all.

Yeah... I was only using sarcasm, guys :smallamused:

[MoonCat]

Yeah... I was only using sarcasm, guys :smallamused:

I didn't even see your post actually.

[137beth]

The player determines it upon character creation, and *this post has been edited for metagaming!*

Oh, and Eugine is not LG...for that matter neither is Julia.

[ORione]

The player determines it upon character creation, and *this post has been edited for metagaming!*

Oh, and Eugine is not LG...for that matter neither is Julia.

Julia isn't, but where does it say that Eugene isn't?

[Ramien]

The player determines it upon character creation, and *this post has been edited for metagaming!*

Oh, and Eugine is not LG...for that matter neither is Julia.

Eugene is/was lawful something, most likely good. It's well established that he is lawful, as evidenced by his conversation with Roy when he first told him about Xykon. He also found himself in the part of the afterlife "Where people of Good alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) come to be judged" and he is expecting to make it up to the mountain with the rest of the LG populace eventually.

Whether or not his alignment hasn't slipped at some point during his time in the fuffy clouds is a valid concern, however.

[FujinAkari]

Eugene is/was lawful something, most likely good. It's well established that he is lawful, as evidenced by his conversation with Roy when he first told him about Xykon. He also found himself in the part of the afterlife "Where people of Good alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) come to be judged" and he is expecting to make it up to the mountain with the rest of the LG populace eventually.

He got into the LG afterlife multiple times... the fact that he was LG is pretty much indisputable.

[factotum]

Doesn't this entire argument boil down to the real-world "nature versus nurture" argument? I don't think even the scientists who study this sort of thing can say for sure one way or the other, so I doubt we'll do any better! We also don't have a great deal of evidence to work from here, since the number of situations where we know a parent *and* their child's alignment in OotS are actually quite few--the Greenhilts and Tarquin/Nale/Elan are pretty much it, in fact.

Just looking at those ones it's inconsistent. Everyone in the Greenhilt family is LG apart from Julia, who's True Neutral. Tarquin and Nale are Lawful Evil, Elan and his mother are Chaotic Good. No consistency there to base any sort of good answer on.

[Ramien]

Well, there are also the drow. We know they're all Chaotic good, but they all have evil kin, right?

[Kish]

He got into the LG afterlife multiple times... the fact that he was LG is pretty much indisputable.
Very much not. He never got into the actual afterlife; that's what he's so mad about. He got to the cloud where Roy got before Roy had his hearing, even.

[Bleak Ink]

I believe as you get older, it is choice, and furthermore I think vast contributing factors to your alignment are the situations you're exposed to. Dirt farmers never given the opportunity to choose which person to save or whether or not to throw puppies off a Cliff of Doom probably wouldn't be at the same risk of radically swinging their alignment around in one choice as those who do have that situation play out for them. Extreme situations bring out the true character, and all that.


Yeah... I was only using sarcasm, guys :smallamused:

I didn't even see your post actually.

*applauds*

[Ramien]

Very much not. He never got into the actual afterlife; that's what he's so mad about. He got to the cloud where Roy got before Roy had his hearing, even.

It is pretty good supporting evidence, though, considering the cloud is for Good-aligned characters. My personal feelings are that he was LG in life, although since his death, his moral and ethical compasses have gone off by a few points. Witness his approval of V's actions after the soul splice - "The ends justify the means" is no part of the LG ethos.

[Kish]

It is pretty good supporting evidence, though, considering the cloud is for Good-aligned characters.
It's good evidence that his declared alignment in life was Lawful Good. That he would have gotten through his interview...questionable.

[The Dark Fiddler]

It is pretty good supporting evidence, though, considering the cloud is for Good-aligned characters.

He hasn't submitted himself to the judgment yet, so he may be found non-Good and be forced into a different afterlife.

[Zxo]

Doesn't this entire argument boil down to the real-world "nature versus nurture" argument?

OoTS, or any D&D based universe, does not work like the real world, so it's a totally separate discussion.

[ORione]

OoTS, or any D&D based universe, does not work like the real world, so it's a totally separate discussion.

Well, then, alignment is determined by what the players (for PCs) or DM (for NPCs) decide.

[MoonCat]

*applauds*

Why are you applauding? Not that I mind, but... :smallsmile:


OoTS, or any D&D based universe, does not work like the real world, so it's a totally separate discussion.

But it actually is nature vs nurture here too. They aren't mutually exclusive.

[Ramien]

He hasn't submitted himself to the judgment yet, so he may be found non-Good and be forced into a different afterlife.

Actually, he has gone through the first part of the judgment at the end of Start of Darkness.

No ruling was given due to the discovery of the Blood Oath of Vengeance, but the only infractions brought up were fairly minor, and editing your own wiki article seems more chaotic than anything else.

[factotum]

Actually, he has gone through the first part of the judgment at the end of Start of Darkness.

In addition, Roy said his father was "nothing if not Lawful" in a strip (possibly in OtOoPCs?)...

In any case, all the stuff we've seen Eugene do has either been in the context of his "difficult" relationship with his son, or arising from frustration over being stuck on the cloud for years rather than going on to what he no doubt considers his just reward. I don't think it's fair to damn him when for all we know he spent his entire life apart from that helping the needy and sick!

[malloyd]

I think the point there is Eugene has died multiple times. What happened on those earlier events? Did he get raised before even getting to the interview? Presumably, since he's surprised by the effect of his Blood Oath, which was pretty early in his life.

[FujinAkari]

I think the point there is Eugene has died multiple times. What happened on those earlier events? Did he get raised before even getting to the interview? Presumably, since he's surprised by the effect of his Blood Oath, which was pretty early in his life.

No, it is very explicitly stated that he went on into the LG afterlife. The Blood Oath only became an issue when he was not due to be raised again, and so his failure to complete it abruptly became a factor. All the PREVIOUS times he died he had died adventuring, TRYING to complete it.

Just like with Roy: You aren't penalized for failing, dying out trying to find xykon counts.

[Kish]

No, it is very explicitly stated that he went on into the LG afterlife.
What? No, that's never stated, explicitly or otherwise. Eugene has never seen his deceased family. Why are you making this incorrect assertion over and over?

[FujinAkari]

What? No, that's never stated, explicitly or otherwise. Eugene has never seen his deceased family. Why are you making this incorrect assertion over and over?

Yes it is, the very last page of Start of Darkness shows Eugene finding out about the Blood Oath only after his final death from old age, meaning he necessarily -didn't- find out about the Blood Oath on any of his previous visits to the afterlife.

Still not convinced? Eugene says as much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) (Notice the "When I died of old age" part)

[Zevox]

Yes it is, the very last page of Start of Darkness shows Eugene finding out about the Blood Oath only after his final death from old age, meaning he necessarily -didn't- find out about the Blood Oath on any of his previous visits to the afterlife.

Still not convinced? Eugene says as much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) (Notice the "When I died of old age" part)
But that does not necessarily mean that he got in before dying of old age. He could have been resurrected quickly enough each time that he never underwent the examination until that final death, which would explain why he didn't find out the Blood Oath would keep him out until then.

Zevox

[Kish]

Yes it is, the very last page of Start of Darkness shows Eugene finding out about the Blood Oath only after his final death from old age, meaning he necessarily -didn't- find out about the Blood Oath on any of his previous visits to the afterlife.

You don't recognize the difference between "it's evident that Eugene either never learned about or never remembered the Blood Oath keeping him off of the mountain" and "it's explicitly stated that he was previously allowed onto the mountain"?


Still not convinced? Eugene says as much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) (Notice the "When I died of old age" part)
I don't even know where to start with this claim. Other than to say, no, Eugene does not say a word that supports your assertion there, given that your assertion was much more specific than "Eugene wasn't allowed into the afterlife when he died of old age"; and it is, from that comic, evident that the notion that pursuing but not succeeding in the Blood Oath has any effect on anyone's afterlife is an unwelcome shock to Eugene.

[Mutant Sheep]

My attempted de-railing was a most epic fail. :smallfrown: But Kish, it's explicitly implied he got into Celestia before he died of old age.:smalltongue:

[Adicted To]

Look at Elan, the bard, his dad is lawful evil and yet he's chaotic good.


His mother is chaotic good too. And Nale is lawful evil.

Tharquin --> Nale

(mother) --> Elan

[Andorax]

Returning to the topic at hand...


...I'd say that there *IS* a significant 'genetic' compoment to alignment...that there is both nature and nurture involved, but also that it varies in intensity depending on what race we're talking about.

That's why you see 'usually' Chaotic Evil versus 'always' Chaotic Evil in the alignment entries.


I would say most of your 'usually' races don't have a strong genetic alignment...that culture and tradition, upbringing, is what typically brings about their alignment. Rescue and nurture a goblin from infancy, protect it from prejudice and persecution that could cause other people's expectations to be fulfilled, and you could readily produce a good goblin.

However, the rulebooks and subsequent materials* are very specific about some races. Drow are literally, demonstratably evil in the womb. Dragons are color-coded for your convenience, regardless of who raises them. Many outsiders are "made of the stuff of a given alignment". These are the situations where you can make a strong case for 'genetic alignment'.


* and presumably, by extension, OOTS.

[FujinAkari]

You don't recognize the difference between "it's evident that Eugene either never learned about or never remembered the Blood Oath keeping him off of the mountain" and "it's explicitly stated that he was previously allowed onto the mountain"?

It isn't said nearly as clearly as I thought it was, true enough. However, to assume Eugene never went into the LG Afterlife, you have to assume that Eugene didn't follow standard protocol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html) which is a pretty bad bet when discussing Beings of Pure Law and good. You also have to assume that Eugene's assumption that the only thing keeping him from the afterlife is the Blood Oath is wrong (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) and he, in fact, hasn't been judged yet (which would, again, violate Roy's standard procedure). Lastly, we can see that both Roy and Eugene are planning for his eventual acceptance into the LG afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html)

In short: You're right, explicit was the wrong word to use, I actually thought they outright said it and now I can't find where that was. However, it is certainly and evidently accepted that Eugene is headed for the LG afterlife once the Blood Oath or a lot of the scenes I've linked just wouldn't make any sense.


His mother is chaotic good too. And Nale is lawful evil.

Tharquin --> Nale

(mother) --> Elan

How do we know the mother is Chaotic Good?

[Ramien]

How do we know the mother is Chaotic Good?

We have at least one lawyer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) who thinks so.

[Kish]

You also have to assume that Eugene's assumption that the only thing keeping him from the afterlife is the Blood Oath is wrong (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) and he, in fact, hasn't been judged yet (which would, again, violate Roy's standard procedure).

No assumptions involved. We saw the judging process in Start of Darkness. It stalled on the Blood Oath right after the celestial said something about him editing his own wiki page.

What happened each of the previous times he died? Who knows? That's the subject of forum speculation, not anything that's been established; possibilities proposed include "each time he was told he couldn't go in, and each time his memory was wiped when he was resurrected," "he was resurrected too fast to get that far in the process," and, now, by you, "he got into Celestia and stayed there until he was resurrected because every time he died previously was before he spent decades ignoring the Blood Oath and so he got into Celestia because he was pursuing the Blood Oath when he died, same as Roy." Considering that--I mention again--he was shocked and outraged to learn that his Blood Oath of Vengeance didn't absolutely keep Roy out without regard for what Roy was doing at the time of death, I'm afraid I find the third proposal the only completely insupportable one.


However, it is certainly and evidently accepted that Eugene is headed for the LG afterlife once the Blood Oath or a lot of the scenes I've linked just wouldn't make any sense.
"It is accepted" is obscuring passive voice.

"Eugene accepts/assumes that he's headed into the Lawful Good afterlife, and so does Roy."

[Adicted To]

We have at least one lawyer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) who thinks so.

That was my source for the intel.

[FujinAkari]

"each time he was told he couldn't go in, and each time his memory was wiped when he was resurrected," Except, again, you are presupposing that beings of pure Law and Good are going to allow Roy in because he died attempting to defeat Xykon, but not allow Eugene in even though he died attempting to find Xykon so he could be defeated.

Any theory which demands beings of pure Law to behave in a Chaotic manner is not a good theory :)


"he was resurrected too fast to get that far in the process,"

A possibility I hadn't considered, though a fairly meaningless one. The difference between "He got in before he stopped questing" and "He didn't have time to get in, but would have." is fairly minute, especially when addressing the initial question of
He hasn't submitted himself to the judgment yet, so he may be found non-Good and be forced into a different afterlife.

Again, we are told the only thing keeping him out is the Blood Oath :)


"he got into Celestia and stayed there until he was resurrected because every time he died previously was before he spent decades ignoring the Blood Oath and so he got into Celestia because he was pursuing the Blood Oath when he died, same as Roy." Considering that--I mention again--he was shocked and outraged to learn that his Blood Oath of Vengeance didn't absolutely keep Roy out without regard for what Roy was doing at the time of death, I'm afraid I find the third proposal the only completely insupportable one.

There is a bit of a difference between "You spent most of your adult life looking for a guy and couldn't find him" and "You failed to destroy a guy" so I think Eugene had a bit of justification for being surprised.

Again though, we're becoming needlessly semantic. The question was whether we know Eugene is LG or not, and you seem to be needlessly focusing on whether he literally walked through the gates rather than whether he'd been judged...


"It is accepted" is obscuring passive voice.

"Eugene accepts/assumes that he's headed into the Lawful Good afterlife, and so does Roy."

I don't understand, can you rephrase?

[Zevox]

My attempted de-railing was a most epic fail. :smallfrown: But Kish, it's explicitly implied he got into Celestia before he died of old age.:smalltongue:
One, "explicitly implied" is an oxymoron, since the terms "explicit" and "implied" are mutually exclusive opposites.

Second, there is neither explicit statement nor implicit indication that I've ever seen that Eugene got into Celestia in his previous deaths. We're simply not told anything about what happened to him then, and all we can deduce from what we have seen of him in the afterlife is that, prior to his final death, he did not know that failing to complete the Blood Oath would keep him out of the afterlife. Which tells us nothing about whether he got into Celestia on prior deaths or not, since he could easily have been resurrected before being processed/let in/rejected.

Zevox

[Kish]

Except, again, you are presupposing that beings of pure Law and Good are going to allow Roy in because he died attempting to defeat Xykon, but not allow Eugene in even though he died attempting to find Xykon so he could be defeated.

I am not presupposing anything that hinges on "Eugene[...]died attempting to find Xykon," I promise. I am, however, starting to suspect that you need to reread Start of Darkness.

I recall no indication that Eugene had died at all before Redcloak's brother offered him Xykon's location and got waved off, much less before Eugene found Xyklon the Consequential and said "screw the blood oath."


Again, we are told the only thing keeping him out is the Blood Oath :)

That is untrue.


There is a bit of a difference between "You spent most of your adult life looking for a guy and couldn't find him"

Most of his adult life? That's quite an unacknowledged assumption you're making there.


Again though, we're becoming needlessly semantic. The question was whether we know Eugene is LG or not, and you seem to be needlessly focusing on whether he literally walked through the gates rather than whether he'd been judged...

If that is the question you want to discuss, then whether he was judged and whether he walked through the gate are both irrelevant, unless you're assuming agreement that it is impossible for Eugene to have changed alignment since the very first time he died--and that would be a very bad assumption.

He had Lawful Good on his character sheet, definitely.
He may, or may not, have been judged and found to be actually Lawful Good at some point in the past, before Roy graduated from Fighter College.
He has definitely not been judged any time recently.


I don't understand, can you rephrase?
Eugene assumes he'll get into the Lawful Good afterlife without any more hitches as soon as the Blood Oath is completed.
Roy assumes Eugene will get into the Lawful Good afterlife without any more hitches as soon as the Blood Oath is completed.
Rich Burlew has not indicated by any means that Eugene will get into the Lawful Good afterlife without etc.
Word of Eugene is not Word of God. Word of Roy is not Word of God. Word of God is silent on the question of Eugene's current alignment and his afterlife destination.

[FujinAkari]

I am not presupposing anything that hinges on "Eugene[...]died attempting to find Xykon," I promise. I am, however, starting to suspect that you need to reread Start of Darkness.

I have, unfortunately, lost my copy, so you're likely correct in that.


I recall no indication that Eugene had died at all before Redcloak's brother offered him Xykon's location and got waved off, much less before Eugene found Xyklon the Consequential and said "screw the blood oath."

Well, we do know he died multiple times, and logic dictates that he is much more likely to die while adventuring than while sitting around with his kids, although it possible otherwise I guess.

Origins Spoiler
When Eugene visits Roy in Fighter College he remarks "I am going to have to explain to Julia that Daddy is dying and this time he won't come back" which only makes since if he has died several times previously.


That is untrue.

Is it? We know The system is to get the judgement out of the way and then wait for the Blood Oath to be fulfilled. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html) and that The thing keeping Eugene from going to Celestia is the Blood Oath (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) so...


Most of his adult life? That's quite an unacknowledged assumption you're making there.

Oops, misremembered the strip. Thought he gave up the quest ten years ago, not "more than twenty," which would have made the statement true.


If that is the question you want to discuss, then whether he was judged and whether he walked through the gate are both irrelevant, unless you're assuming agreement that it is impossible for Eugene to have changed alignment since the very first time he died--and that would be a very bad assumption.

Once again, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html) the policy is for the judgement to have already been done. I'm not saying it is impossible that Eugene changed alignment, but if anything additional needed to be discussed with the Deva, then it would have been discussed upon his most recent death.


He had Lawful Good on his character sheet, definitely.
He may, or may not, have been judged and found to be actually Lawful Good at some point in the past, before Roy graduated from Fighter College.
He has definitely not been judged any time recently.

What makes you say so? The policy is to be judged as soon as you die.


Eugene assumes he'll get into the Lawful Good afterlife without any more hitches as soon as the Blood Oath is completed.
Roy assumes Eugene will get into the Lawful Good afterlife without any more hitches as soon as the Blood Oath is completed.
Rich Burlew has not indicated by any means that Eugene will get into the Lawful Good afterlife without etc.
Word of Eugene is not Word of God. Word of Roy is not Word of God. Word of God is silent on the question of Eugene's current alignment and his afterlife destination.

No, but Word of Eugene and Word of Roy is better than Word of Nobody. Information presented in the strip is considered accurate unless we have conflicting information from which to discount it.

[Mutant Sheep]

One, "explicitly implied" is an oxymoron, since the terms "explicit" and "implied" are mutually exclusive opposites.
:smallfrown: Geez, second time you've yelled at me for that. I really need to work on my sarcasm. :smalltongue: (:smalltongue: means its a poorly made joke)

[KillItWithFire]

It's good evidence that his declared alignment in life was Lawful Good. That he would have gotten through his interview...questionable.

Actually I believe he is interviewed, and passes in the very last page of SoD. The only reason he couldn't pass is due to the blood oath. not 100% positive my copy of the book is out on loan at the momment so if someone would be kind enough to verify...

[Zevox]

:smallfrown: Geez, second time you've yelled at me for that. I really need to work on my sarcasm. :smalltongue: (:smalltongue: means its a poorly made joke)
:smallconfused: You sure you're not confusing me for someone else? I can't recall correcting anyone on a statement like "explicitly implied" before.

Zevox

[veti]

However, the rulebooks and subsequent materials* are very specific about some races. Drow are literally, demonstratably evil in the womb. Dragons are color-coded for your convenience, regardless of who raises them. Many outsiders are "made of the stuff of a given alignment". These are the situations where you can make a strong case for 'genetic alignment'.

* and presumably, by extension, OOTS.

"Made of the stuff of an alignment" isn't "genetics", though. If you're an elemental being formed of pure hatred and envy, then "genetics" don't really apply to you, because you don't even have biological parents. You are Always Evil by nature, but genetics have nothing to do with it.

There are other ways of being 'aligned by nature'. If you need to feed on the psychic misery of sentient beings - you'll literally starve and die unless you can find enough suffering - then, again, you're pretty much going to be Evil. But 'genetic' would be a strange way of describing that, too. It's really not so much about ethics, as about a lifecycle that's fundamentally incompatible with the goals of other life forms.

Imagine you're a dragon. You catch and eat animals, with no more thought than a human hunting rabbits. When some of the rabbits invade your home and start jabbing you with pointy sticks, do you (a) calmly and with infinite patience, try to understand their language so that you can negotiate with them, or (b) kill them all and pop them in the freezer? That's the difference between a silver and a white dragon.

[Kish]

Well, we do know he died multiple times, and logic dictates that he is much more likely to die while adventuring than while sitting around with his kids, although it possible otherwise I guess.

Yes. He was much more likely to die while adventuring than sitting around with his kids, on any of the many completely-non-Xykon-related adventures he went on after meeting Xyklon the Consequential.


Once again, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html) the policy is for the judgement to have already been done. I'm not saying it is impossible that Eugene changed alignment, but if anything additional needed to be discussed with the Deva, then it would have been discussed upon his most recent death.

That just changes the question slightly, to "Why are you assuming nothing that happened after he died has affected his alignment?" He is plainly not being hauled up in front of the deva every second, or even every time he takes a questionable action. He tied up and replaced a being of pure law and good. He tore up a message from a deva. He was openly outraged that his son was able to get into the afterlife. Etc., etc., etc., etc.


What makes you say so? The policy is to be judged as soon as you die.

He didn't die recently.


No, but Word of Eugene and Word of Roy is better than Word of Nobody. Information presented in the strip is considered accurate unless we have conflicting information from which to discount it.
Look, will you quit using passive voice? It claims authority you don't have.

"I, FujinAkari, consider information stated by anyone in the strip accurate unless we have conflicting information from which to discount it."

As I've told you before, I think that's a fundamentally incorrect way to approach the comic, but you're certainly free to approach it that way. You shouldn't expect everyone else to, though.

[Mutant Sheep]

:smallconfused: You sure you're not confusing me for someone else? I can't recall correcting anyone on a statement like "explicitly implied" before.

Zevox

Yeah sorry, mistook you for The Phantasm.:smallredface: Don't ask how or why, but I make Elan look like a really smart person. Makes my reference to that Enor and Ganjji =Tarquin is a rapist thread useless though.:smallsigh: I can never kill these serious and angry threads. I cant help but read these arguments in my head as people screaming at each other.

[malloyd]

Yes. He was much more likely to die while adventuring than sitting around with his kids, on any of the many completely-non-Xykon-related adventures he went on after meeting Xyklon the Consequential.

More likely sure, but somehow he managed once afterward. The death dates on his tombstone are 1124, 1143, 1149, 1158, 1159, 1168 and 1180.

Right Eye talks to Eugene in 1162, and he claims to be out of the adventuring business, so there's at least one death after that. Xykon steals the crown "forty years ago", so ca 1143, so he did manage to die once or twice before swearing his Blood Oath too, depending on how much Roy is rounding and how long he waited to swear it.

[Ramien]

Actually I believe he is interviewed, and passes in the very last page of SoD. The only reason he couldn't pass is due to the blood oath. not 100% positive my copy of the book is out on loan at the momment so if someone would be kind enough to verify...

My copy is back at home (I'm at work right now), but the interviewer brought up a few black marks, found the unfinished blood oath, and that pretty much put the interview on hold until the Oath was fulfilled. No actual verdict was rendered at the time.

[Kish]

There are other ways of being 'aligned by nature'. If you need to feed on the psychic misery of sentient beings - you'll literally starve and die unless you can find enough suffering - then, again, you're pretty much going to be Evil.
What if your feeding decreases the sum total of misery in the world?

(Someone somewhere, I don't remember where, once noted in reference to Star Trek monsters that a creature who feeds on positive emotions never takes the "cause people to feel the desired emotions" approach unless the effect is also damaging in other ways, while one who feeds on negative emotions always does so.)

[Mastikator]

The Ootsverse is a fictional universe. Whatever the giant says goes. And since he hasn't said anything on the subject, there is no answer. It's undefined.

[FujinAkari]

Yes. He was much more likely to die while adventuring than sitting around with his kids, on any of the many completely-non-Xykon-related adventures he went on after meeting Xyklon the Consequential.

Ah, but (up until he gave up on the quest at around 1160) all of those deaths were part of his search for Xykon. They may not have been directly related, but no part of the Blood Oath was 'I shall forsake all action until Xykon is defeated.' and since Xykon could not be found it should logically still count since he is still -trying- to find him.


That just changes the question slightly, to "Why are you assuming nothing that happened after he died has affected his alignment?" He is plainly not being hauled up in front of the deva every second, or even every time he takes a questionable action. He tied up and replaced a being of pure law and good. He tore up a message from a deva. He was openly outraged that his son was able to get into the afterlife. Etc., etc., etc., etc.

True, and he may turn into a special case.

I've never framed my argument in terms of what will happen, merely what did. This thread is about whether alignment is genetic or behavioral, so I'm only concerned with how Eugene was in life and how that shaped Roy. Eugene was LG, Roy is LG, Roy's Mother was LG, and Julia is TN.


Look, will you quit using passive voice? It claims authority you don't have.

"I, FujinAkari, consider information stated by anyone in the strip accurate unless we have conflicting information from which to discount it."

As I've told you before, I think that's a fundamentally incorrect way to approach the comic, but you're certainly free to approach it that way. You shouldn't expect everyone else to, though.

How do you approach the comic? It almost sounds like Rich has to independantly confirm everything before you'll accept it, but I'm sure that isn't the case, so how do you decide whats true?

In works of fiction, it is typically accepted (as far as I've seen) that the highest form of canon is the work itself, followed by comments from the work's author, and then derivative works are considered on a case by case basis...

If the characters in the comic act as though Eugene is Lawful Good, I presume he is Lawful Good, and do typically need something from the comic before I'll begin to doubt that. The alternative is to simply be unable to ever know anything.

Also: Sorry about the passive voice thing... English isn't my first language, so its hard to change the way I frame my sentences :(

[Kish]

How do you approach the comic? It almost sounds like Rich has to independantly confirm everything before you'll accept it, but I'm sure that isn't the case, so how do you decide whats true?

I assess the evidence presented in the comic.

Eugene believes he's going to the Lawful Good afterlife. Roy believes Eugene is going to the Lawful Good afterlife. Does either of them have any authority or any source of knowledge greater than we would have if we'd just read the entire comic without taking into account their beliefs on the subject? No, they don't. So their beliefs are not evidence at all. Redcloak demonstrating Smite in Start of Darkness is strong evidence that the Dark One grants the Destruction domain. Redcloak saying "I have the Destruction domain" would be almost ironclad evidence that the Dark One grants the Destruction domain. But Eugene and Roy both talking as though it was established that Roy would be stuck on that cloud with Eugene until he was resurrected was evidence that they believed that, nothing more.


In works of fiction, it is typically accepted (as far as I've seen) that the highest form of canon is the work itself,

You're confusing "what every character in the work says" with "the work itself." If Rich said "Eugene never indicated a belief that he'll get into the Lawful Good afterlife when the Blood Oath is fulfilled," there would be a reason to weight "the work itself" vs. "comments from the work's author." That hasn't happened. Eugene believes something for which there is no actual evidence in the comic. Eugene's belief does not itself constitute evidence.

[Andorax]

"Made of the stuff of an alignment" isn't "genetics", though. If you're an elemental being formed of pure hatred and envy, then "genetics" don't really apply to you, because you don't even have biological parents. You are Always Evil by nature, but genetics have nothing to do with it.


I suppose it depends on how you apply a technical term like "genetics" to a fantasy setting.

You're looking at it in terms of actual, literal genetic inheritance from biological parents.

I'm trying to apply it in a broader sense. My reference to 'genetics' and 'made of the stuff of an alignment' is intended to be more or less the same thing, ie "the physical matter and material out of which one is composed causing the individual to have a specific alignment predisposition"; whether that physical matter is DNA coding or blobs of evil goo filling up their evil cells with evilness.


Without refering to genetics, then, let me put it this way. There are *some* categories of beings in the D&D (and by extention, OOTS) universe that fit a particular alignment because they're made that way...however it is that they're made.

[FujinAkari]

I assess the evidence presented in the comic.

Eugene believes he's going to the Lawful Good afterlife. Roy believes Eugene is going to the Lawful Good afterlife. Does either of them have any authority or any source of knowledge greater than we would have if we'd just read the entire comic without taking into account their beliefs on the subject? No, they don't. So their beliefs are not evidence at all. Redcloak demonstrating Smite in Start of Darkness is strong evidence that the Dark One grants the Destruction domain. Redcloak saying "I have the Destruction domain" would be almost ironclad evidence that the Dark One grants the Destruction domain. But Eugene and Roy both talking as though it was established that Roy would be stuck on that cloud with Eugene until he was resurrected was evidence that they believed that, nothing more.

Ah, I see. You think I'm arguing that Eugene will go into Celestia if Roy completes the Blood Oath. I'm not. I absolutely agree with you that Eugene may have done enough since his death to call his alignment into question, and what it is now is speculation.

However, my argument is that Eugene -was- LG in life. I base this on the fact that the Deva has a policy that people are judged as soon as they die and the fact that Eugene believes the only thing keeping him out of Celestia is the Blood Oath.

With these facts, I conclude that Eugene was LG in life, which is pretty much the only thing I care about in terms of 'alignment genetics,' since his behavior in life is what would have shaped Roy and Julia.

[veti]

I suppose it depends on how you apply a technical term like "genetics" to a fantasy setting.

You're looking at it in terms of actual, literal genetic inheritance from biological parents.

I'm trying to apply it in a broader sense. My reference to 'genetics' and 'made of the stuff of an alignment' is intended to be more or less the same thing, ie "the physical matter and material out of which one is composed causing the individual to have a specific alignment predisposition"; whether that physical matter is DNA coding or blobs of evil goo filling up their evil cells with evilness.

Oh yes, I understand that - sort of. But I think it's a bad idea to use the word "genetics" in this context, because - well, there are very different categories of things that one derives from one's parents. There's features that are standard issue for the whole species (I have two legs and two eyes, just like my parents), and then there's features that are individual (exceptionally tall, weak eyesight, whatever).

Usually, when we talk about genetics, we're discussing the second category, because that's where all the debate happens.


Without refering to genetics, then, let me put it this way. There are *some* categories of beings in the D&D (and by extention, OOTS) universe that fit a particular alignment because they're made that way...however it is that they're made.

Oh yes, absolutely. But that's a different thing from "inheriting traits from one's parents". It makes perfect sense to say that Sabine is evil "because she's made that way" - but that explanation doesn't work for Nale, because he's a human - and we know that humans can go either way, or neither.

(By "doesn't work", I mean "it doesn't add anything to our understanding of the character". To say Nale is "born evil" is basically saying "I can't explain him in normal human terms, so I'm not going to try" - it's a cop-out.)

[Zxo]

I asked this question mainly because of Elan and Nale. In #50, we see baby Nale hitting baby Elan. It looks like Nale was already evil or had at least evil tendencies, and they were both too young to have made any conscious choices at that point. So maybe they did not acquire the alignment of the parent who was raising them, but the parents simply each kept the child with corresponding aligmnent after they split?

Of course the idea alignment in OoTS (or at least a strong tendency towards an alignment) being fixed at birth, by genes or other factors is unpleasant, as evil alignment leads to a very unpleasant afterlife and unlike Xykon, most people can't easily avoid it. But OoTS-world is not exactly a just world, as we can see from the goblin story in SoD or the way paladinhood works in Origins, so I would not be surprised if the gods screwed up this aspect too.

[Dalek-K]

Baby Nale (genius) could have picked up on his father's tendencies while baby Elan picked up on his mother's actions.

Babies tend to mimic what they see after all. Elan (idiot) and Nale might have seen their father kill someone... But what Elan thought he saw was his father playing "catch" with a guy (where Tarquin throws the knife and the other guy "catches" it in his throat similar to a dog catching a Frisbee in it's mouth). However Nale saw it for what it was and was swayed by it.