Building a Tank

[Yorae]

I've decided that I want my next character to be a real proper tank.
He should be able to take a really harsh beating and keep on going, protect other party members, and be generally dependable to not fall victim to save or lose stuff. Doing an okay amount of damage is a secondary concern, but significantly less important. I'd also like this to be a sword & board (or mace & board, or axe & board...) character, at least partially because of flavor.

I did a little research and I think I'm looking at something like a Knight 4 / Crusader 16, though I'm open to other options. The Knight's Test of Mettle ability seems like its pretty much required for what I'm wanting to do here. Not sure about feats here, really... maybe Combat Reflexes + Stand Still to compliment Thicket of Blades? Now that I think about it, Defensive Sweep would be pretty awesome there, too! Are there any decent one-handed reach weapons I could use if I go this route? I don't want to lose the ability to attack adjacent opponents.

Any suggestions would be welcome! Thanks!

[BillyBobJoe]

Use a Kusari-Gama, it's a 1-handed weapon that works just like the Spiked Chain, including the trip attempts.

[Greenish]

Use a Kusari-Gama, it's a 1-handed weapon that works just like the Spiked Chain, including the trip attempts.It's a light weapon.

Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona is one-handed, though, but doesn't have tripping by default. A tactical dip to Exotic Weapon Master can solve that, in addition to giving you 2:1 PA returns on an one-handed weapon.

[Yorae]

Being light versus being one-handed isn't an issue (just need something I can use together with my shield), and I'm not really terribly concerned with Power Attack, since this guy is pretty much the opposite of a charger build. The weapons look pretty much identical, with the exception of light/1h and tripping ability. Might have to fluff some reason he'd be using a kusari-gama + shield...

Oh, wait... come to think of it, if I'm using a shield in my off-hand, I still threaten adjacent creatures, since I can bash them, right? Maybe I could just get a decent martial reach weapon that I can use in one hand, and use my shield if they get close? Wouldn't have to blow a feat on exotic weapon mastery, anyway, and I can definitely see this guy slamming guy's faces with his shield. Unless, of course, tripping was really desirable for some kind of build someone has in mind...

[Lateral]

Would an Animated Shield work? A +1 animated shield is only 9,000 gp, and it lets you wield a two-handed weapon instead. If you're fine with that, wield a Spiked Chain or a Guisarme and Spiked Armor, but if you really want to hold the shield then go with Kusarigama as above. (They're actually Light, not one-handed.)

Take Mage Slayer, Stand Still, and Combat Reflexes, and pump your reach as high as possible- find a way to become Large (items of Enlarge Person, being a Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur), wield a reach weapon, and maybe take some reach-increasing feats. Taking Aberration Blood and Inhuman Reach nets you a +5 to reach, and is notable in that it is doubled with a reach weapon. It also qualifies you for Extended Reach, which gives you another +5 (that is not doubled).

With Large size, a reach weapon, and the three feats above, you get 35 foot reach. Pump Dexterity and take Combat Reflexes and Stand Still, and you'll be able to lock down anyone within your reach. Mage Slayer will be helpful to prevent mages from trying to cast at you from within your reach- which will be about half the battlefield. It's crazy feat intensive, though- at this point, it's already taken six feats. Flaws can help here. So can this handbook. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777)

[Greenish]

Maybe I could just get a decent martial reach weapon that I can use in one hand, and use my shield if they get close?There's no one-handed martial reach weapon. The two weapons already named are, as far as I know, the only reach weapons that aren't two-handers.

Of course, diopsid could bypass that pretty easy.


[Edit]: Besides, just because you're tank doesn't mean that it isn't handy for you to actually deal damage.

[Yorae]

There's no one-handed martial reach weapon. The two weapons already named are, as far as I know, the only reach weapons that aren't two-handers.

Of course, diopsid could bypass that pretty easy.


[Edit]: Besides, just because you're tank doesn't mean that it isn't handy for you to actually deal damage.

Well, I suppose that settles that. :smalltongue: Exotic weapon it is.

Just curious, what/where are Diopsids from? Can't seem to find them anywhere.

[Greenish]

Just curious, what/where are Diopsids from? Can't seem to find them anywhere.Diopsids are a race from Dragon Compendium.

[Hirax]

Parrying shield is a feat from Lords of Madness that adds your shield bonus to your touch AC. Deflective armor is a feat from Races of Stone that adds your armor bonus to touch AC while psionically focused and wearing heavy armor.

[Greenish]

Parrying shield is a feat from Lords of Madness that adds your shield bonus to your touch AC.Shield Ward adds it to that, and to resist bull rushes and the like. Shield Ward has a prerequisite, though, Shield Focus, but that's common for many shield feats.

[Qwertystop]

In order to fulfill the role of "tank", you need a way to make sure the enemies attack you instead of someone else on your team. In MMOs, this is achieved by some (minor and fully accepted) gaming of the AI's target-choosing system. Is this even possible in D&D, run by an intelligent human, unless the enemies are unintelligent autonomous constructs?

[Urpriest]

In order to fulfill the role of "tank", you need a way to make sure the enemies attack you instead of someone else on your team. In MMOs, this is achieved by some (minor and fully accepted) gaming of the AI's target-choosing system. Is this even possible in D&D, run by an intelligent human, unless the enemies are unintelligent autonomous constructs?

In D&D it uses either mental effects (Knight's Challenge) or incentives (tripping and AOOs, Iron Guard's Glare).

[Lateral]

In D&D it uses either mental effects (Knight's Challenge) or incentives (tripping and AOOs, Iron Guard's Glare).

Either that, or reach lockdown- if they can't move, they can't attack your squishies, and if they've been tripped, they can't stand up or they get attacked and tripped again.

[PirateLizard]

I currently have 2 "tanks" I'm working on. Both are far more flavor than "absolute potency."

The first is a semi-mentally-deficient (read: completely) Orc that calls himself Spud. He's Barbarian 2/Crusader 18. He dual wields because as a Crusader you pretty much -want- to constantly be soaking up damage. His basic idea was the WotLK Blood Spec Death Knight. He self-heals and hands out a pretty brutal pummeling to boot, which keeps HP flowing back into him. Extra readied maneuver is your friend if you go this route.

My other one is a flamingly homosexual male horse beastfolk with a horn glued to his head, which means he thinks he's a unicorn. Ol' Appleblossom Glitterhoof is going straight up Psywar 20. ACF Mantled Warrior loses a feat to give you access to a mantle, and the Freedom Mantle is +10 ft. movement when focused, and gives you access to Psy Freedom of Movement and Fly, both things I've found infinitely useful in the past for a Painsponge.
There's an awesome(read: cheesy) combo you can get rolling somewhere in the area of 6-9 that uses the psycrystal feat and a couple abilities to double the amount of HP Vigor churns out. This means for 5pp you gain 50 temp HP instead of 25. He's going the DW Trip route since force screen is a +4 shield bonus for 1pp, making carrying one pretty moot. He's more of the "you can't hit me and when you do who cares" type of tank, as he's going to have high AC, hopefully some darn good saves and an ocean of padding HP.
To top that all off, the ability for Psions to write and invent their own abilities means I can work with the GM to come up with any ability I need to increase my battlefield control beyond making a trip attempt against pretty much anything I hit.

One thing to remember though, is that 3.5 is not a MMO. As a DM, I'm the kind fo guy that throws archers into the fight after the meatshields are tied up to harass the casters and see about forcing some conc checks. Everyone in this game has at the least decent chances to gain armor, and it's not always going to be your top priority to "handle everything," just the BBEG that could oneshot the mages on a crit. Remember the nature of this game pretty much insists they need to be semi-self-reliant too.

Just some thoughts, hope that helps.

[Zaq]

Knight and Crusader both kind of work. Knight's appropriate in a low-op group, and Crusader's appropriate in a somewhat higher-op group. (Neither works in a balls-out-crazy-op group, but that's beside the point.) I'm skeptical about taking only 4 levels of Knight for Test of Mettle. While it is, on the one hand, exactly what you're looking for if you want to force aggro, it's also based on your Knight level (both for uses per day and for the save DC), so once you start taking too many Crusader levels, it's not really going to work against higher-level foes . . . and since it only works on creatures with a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2, you can't even soak up the minions with it. Unless you have some really specific plan for supercharging your CHA, I don't think Test of Mettle is going to help you very much. With 4 levels of Knight, the DC would be 12 + CHA . . . I don't want to rely on that, do you? So no, while some levels of Knight might be useful (Bulwark of Defense is funny, especially if you have a way of getting really, really big), I don't think that ToM is good as a dip.

The feat Goad does something similar and is based on your character level, rather than your class level, but it has a much smaller range (they have to threaten you) and only applies to melee attacks, not ranged attacks. Whether that's good enough really depends on the game.

If you have a lenient DM, you might ask for a houserule allowing levels of Crusader to progress Test of Mettle. I'd probably allow something like that, based on the group, and I'd almost certainly allow it as a feat. Out of the box, though . . . not so much.

Crusaders do just fine on their own, of course. They get all the good melee BfC options, Iron Guard's Glare is amazing, I don't have to tell you how good Thicket of Blades is, and they absorb punishment like no one's business. They just don't have many ways to tell their opponents "no, you literally don't have a choice. Fight me, not him."

[Lateral]

Knight and Crusader both kind of work. Knight's appropriate in a low-op group, and Crusader's appropriate in a somewhat higher-op group. (Neither works in a balls-out-crazy-op group, but that's beside the point.) I'm skeptical about taking only 4 levels of Knight for Test of Mettle. While it is, on the one hand, exactly what you're looking for if you want to force aggro, it's also based on your Knight level (both for uses per day and for the save DC), so once you start taking too many Crusader levels, it's not really going to work against higher-level foes . . . and since it only works on creatures with a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2, you can't even soak up the minions with it. Unless you have some really specific plan for supercharging your CHA, I don't think Test of Mettle is going to help you very much. With 4 levels of Knight, the DC would be 12 + CHA . . . I don't want to rely on that, do you? So no, while some levels of Knight might be useful (Bulwark of Defense is funny, especially if you have a way of getting really, really big), I don't think that ToM is good as a dip.

The feat Goad does something similar and is based on your character level, rather than your class level, but it has a much smaller range (they have to threaten you) and only applies to melee attacks, not ranged attacks. Whether that's good enough really depends on the game.

If you have a lenient DM, you might ask for a houserule allowing levels of Crusader to progress Test of Mettle. I'd probably allow something like that, based on the group, and I'd almost certainly allow it as a feat. Out of the box, though . . . not so much.

Crusaders do just fine on their own, of course. They get all the good melee BfC options, Iron Guard's Glare is amazing, I don't have to tell you how good Thicket of Blades is, and they absorb punishment like no one's business. They just don't have many ways to tell their opponents "no, you literally don't have a choice. Fight me, not him."
Knight wouldn't be for ToM anyway, Test of Mettle sucks. Bulwark of Defense is what the dip's for.

[Yorae]

Hmm... how good is Bulwark of Defense, really? Half movement speed through squares you threaten is pretty good, I guess, but what does that matter if you're already locking them down with trips, stand still, etc?

If a 4-level knight dip isn't that great, then straight crusader 20, I guess? Are there any other classes PrCs that lend themselves well to this sort of thing?

[Tvtyrant]

One option that has come up on this board is a Shield Other Cleric that then adds things like fast healing to themselves, basically sponging other peoples damage for them.

[Yorae]

How about some kind of Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator build?

The maneuver progression for RKV doesn't even slow down, though I would lose a bit of Steely Resolve, which shouldnt really be a big deal.

What are some good tricks for tanking as a cleric?

[Hirax]

If RKV is a route you're interested in, consider Crusader/ur-priest/RKV instead.

[Yorae]

If RKV is a route you're interested in, consider Crusader/ur-priest/RKV instead.

Haha... I wonder how THAT flavor works. =p

Sounds potentially powerful though.

Edit: Wait, ur-priests don't get turn undead, do they? That would make a lot of RKV way less valuable.

Double Edit: So they do... crazy.

[candycorn]

Psion. You'll have the advantage of being a primary target anyway, and with Share Pain + Vigor + Shared Power (with psicrystal).

As long as you use PP-recovery tricks, you can run a fully augmented Vigor all the time (+100 temp HP), shared with your psicrystal (+200 temp hp), and it takes half your damage. Add in miss chances (Greater Concealing Amorpha, Ring of Blinking), and combat/control powers, and you're a caster tank.

[Yorae]

I think I really like the Crusader -> Ur-Priest -> RKV route.

Can't pick up Ur-Priest until 10th level, unfortunately, since it requires base will save +3 and required 8 ranks in spellcraft... and spell craft isn't a class skill for crusaders, and they use the poor will progression. Could dip some other class that has a good will save and spellcraft as a class skill (err.. cleric? lol.) to expedite it.. do need to give up two feats for it, though. That's a monster spell progression, but it might be getting away from the point of the build... any advice?

[Shadowknight12]

I think I really like the Crusader -> Ur-Priest -> RKV route.

Can't pick up Ur-Priest until 10th level, unfortunately, since it requires base will save +3 and required 8 ranks in spellcraft... and spell craft isn't a class skill for crusaders, and they use the poor will progression. Could dip some other class that has a good will save and spellcraft as a class skill (err.. cleric? lol.) to expedite it.. do need to give up two feats for it, though. That's a monster spell progression, but it might be getting away from the point of the build... any advice?

Be a human, take Able Learner, dip a level of cleric to get spellcraft as a class skill, a boost on your base will save and a completely different pool of turn undead attempts that you can use to fuel RKV.

[mint]

There's a build I like to pimp for this type of thing:
Crusader5/ Hellreaver5/Incarnate1/CrusaderX
You combine the battle field control of the Crusader with swift action healing on any party member or yourself (20/round at level 5 I think) from the Hellreaver. Reset healing resource for free with strongheart vest soulmeld.
Or don't, either way.

Idea is that even if you don't lock everything down, healing maneuvers and hellreaver healing will make it quite a bit harder to kill other party members while you are still alive.

[Lateral]

I think I really like the Crusader -> Ur-Priest -> RKV route.

Can't pick up Ur-Priest until 10th level, unfortunately, since it requires base will save +3 and required 8 ranks in spellcraft... and spell craft isn't a class skill for crusaders, and they use the poor will progression. Could dip some other class that has a good will save and spellcraft as a class skill (err.. cleric? lol.) to expedite it.. do need to give up two feats for it, though. That's a monster spell progression, but it might be getting away from the point of the build... any advice?
Ur-Vindicator builds are powerful, but hard to pull off because of the skill requirements for Ur-Priest. A level of Factotum at first level plus the Able Learner feat can get you lots of skills and 1st level skill points- you'll be able to take enough ranks in each by 8th level, no problem. Iron Will can be gotten via the Otyugh Hole, and it doubles as a great place to RP your shift to Ur-Priesthood. The Fortitude requirement's easy, but the Will requirement drops this down to 7th level entry. That's okay, though- Factotum 1/ Crusader 7/ Ur-Priest 2/ RKV 10 is a 20th level build with 9th level Ur-Priest casting, +18 BAB, and effectively 18th initiator level. Problem is, it requires you to be Evil and to have your DM let you ignore the "Deity: Wee Jas" line in RKV. Ask your DM to let it be a plot hook- you need to steal knowledge of the details of these techniques from a powerful temple of Wee Jas in order to enter.

[candycorn]

Personally, I prefer Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) for my Ur-priest dip.

Heck, you get everything you need for it, skills included, with a 1 level dip, followed by 3 in crusader, and 1 in anything. Best of all, strong Fort and Will, and a more charisma focus than factotum.

[Yorae]

Ur-Vindicator builds are powerful, but hard to pull off because of the skill requirements for Ur-Priest. A level of Factotum at first level plus the Able Learner feat can get you lots of skills and 1st level skill points- you'll be able to take enough ranks in each by 8th level, no problem. Iron Will can be gotten via the Otyugh Hole, and it doubles as a great place to RP your shift to Ur-Priesthood. The Fortitude requirement's easy, but the Will requirement drops this down to 7th level entry. That's okay, though- Factotum 1/ Crusader 7/ Ur-Priest 2/ RKV 10 is a 20th level build with 9th level Ur-Priest casting, +18 BAB, and effectively 18th initiator level. Problem is, it requires you to be Evil and to have your DM let you ignore the "Deity: Wee Jas" line in RKV. Ask your DM to let it be a plot hook- you need to steal knowledge of the details of these techniques from a powerful temple of Wee Jas in order to enter.

Otyugh Hole isn't an option, really - can't depend on finding a specific location that probably won't exist in my DM's world.

Also, it's just as easy to refluff Ur-Priest to not be a bitter god-hater as it is to refluff RKV to not be in service to Wee Jas. In fact, there are adaptations listed for both of those classes right in the class descriptions for doing that. It would be a simple matter to make them good aligned, rebuke undead --> turn undead, Spell Focus (Evil) --> Spell Focus (Good), call it a special sect within the priesthood which requires you to forget everything you previously learned about utilizing your connection to your god.

My DM also houserules skill points such that essentially everyone gets Able Learner for free, which helps. I'll post a potential build here in a bit, once I get it a little more worked out, and hopefully folks can point it out if I've been dumb. =p

[Fax Celestis]

Diopsids are a race from Dragon Compendium.

They're also pretty lame. If you want extra arms, be a nonpsionic thri-kreen: 2 RHD, +1 LA, and those RHD count for IL.


How about some kind of Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator build?

I prefer Swordsage/Cleric/RKV, myself. You have to burn two feats to get the Devoted Spirit prereqs, but you end up with better stat synergy. Here's an example (http://www.pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=690).

[Greenish]

They're also pretty lame. If you want extra arms, be a nonpsionic thri-kreen: 2 RHD, +1 LA, and those RHD count for IL.Eh, diopsids lack RHD and ignore dex requirements of TWF feats, which is pretty awesome. Larger weapons don't hurt, either.

[Fax Celestis]

Eh, diopsids lack RHD and ignore dex requirements of TWF feats, which is pretty awesome. Larger weapons don't hurt, either.

Yeah, but their secondary arms have some pretty atrocious limitations. Thri-kreen at least get full use of all four arms, claw attacks with them all, and a bite attack on top of that. AND a +30 racial to Jump, which makes them terrifyingly mobile if you get the Sudden Leap maneuver from somewhere.

[PirateLizard]

Before you set anything in stone, I should probably mention that if you die-hard want to lock everything down, play a Cleric. Summon up tons of undead, and throw skeletons and zombies at everything. Tier 1 ftw.

To top this off, Bone Knight (Five Kingdoms, 117) is a PrC that has 9/10 caster progression, allows you to summon a skeletal steed, has a second control undead mechanic separate from the undead you can rebuke, and grants you all sort of ridiculous abilities that include at the higher levels immunity to pretty much everything including death from massive damage and death effects, and armor that automatically has heavy fortification on it.

I'd argue it's pretty much the ultimate tank, at least until you run into someone with a lot of turning, and even then you can just smack them with your PrC granted sword or go full on cleric caster at them. Much like RKV, the only issue you might have is getting your DM to approve it. :smallmad:

[Greenish]

Yeah, but their secondary arms have some pretty atrocious limitations.That only matters if you want to multiweapon fight, and I think TWF with two-handers is probably the better option for either critter (unless going rogue or similar). :smallamused:

[Yorae]

Eh, diopsids lack RHD and ignore dex requirements of TWF feats, which is pretty awesome. Larger weapons don't hurt, either.

That's a pretty awesome racial trait, imo. All WotC material + anything I want to pick out of PF is open, though I think I'm still going human or some equivalent. Still, pretty cool

Also, a point of curiosity -- when I take Ur-Priest and lose my previous (1 level) of cleric spellcasting... do I retain my domain powers? My guess is yes, since it says I only sacrifice the actual spellcasting (and hence retain turn undead as well). What are soem good domain powers that would be useful for BC / soaking damage / otherwise protecting my party?

Edit: Powers based on cleric level would be pretty weak, since I'll only have a 1-level dip. Just a note.

[Hirax]

Are you sure you want 1 level of cleric? Savage bard1/crusader4/urpriest2/RKV gets you to ur-priest more quickly, and you'll be getting level 9 spells around the same time as everyone else, assuming you play out that far.

edit: it's also worth pointing out that bards are arcane casters, and that you don't lose their spellcasting ability when you take ur-priest. Not good for much, but it's there.

[Yorae]

Are you sure you want 1 level of cleric? Savage bard1/crusader4/urpriest2/RKV gets you to ur-priest more quickly, and you'll be getting level 9 spells around the same time as everyone else, assuming you play out that far.

edit: it's also worth pointing out that bards are arcane casters, and that you don't lose their spellcasting ability when you take ur-priest. Not good for much, but it's there.

I'm not seeing how Savage Bard gets you there any more quickly... you could do the same thing with 1 level of cleric. Why is Savage Bard better? I'm probably missing something.

Edit: Is it Bluff as a class skill you're worried about? You can still make that requirement with crusader/cleric. And with cleric you have even more turn attempts to spend on RKV's abilities, which are awesome (extra swift actions? Yes, please.). I'll also probably be wearing heavier than light armor, so I'd have to take ACF for the few bard spells I'd get.

[Qwertystop]

That only matters if you want to multiweapon fight, and I think TWF with two-handers is probably the better option for either critter (unless going rogue or similar). :smallamused:

Can't you put 3 hands on a 2-hander for a bonus, same as 2 hands on a 1-hander?

[Greenish]

Can't you put 3 hands on a 2-hander for a bonus, same as 2 hands on a 1-hander?Yeah, if you have a weapon specifically crafted for that (and your DM allows Savage Species). Doesn't increase PA returns, though.

[Hirax]

Edit: Is it Bluff as a class skill you're worried about? You can still make that requirement with crusader/cleric. And with cleric you have even more turn attempts to spend on RKV's abilities, which are awesome (extra swift actions? Yes, please.). I'll also probably be wearing heavier than light armor, so I'd have to take ACF for the few bard spells I'd get.

Yeah, bluff was one of my concerns, but also the increased skill points of a savage bard help alleviate the ur-priest's painful skill reqs. Though you make a good point with the increased amount of turning attempts.

edit: IIRC from Savage Species, wielding a weapon with 3, 4, or more hands allows you to add more than 1.5x your strength bonus to damage. I think it's +.5 str mod per hand added? The weapon needs to be custom made though.

[Yorae]

Yeah, bluff was one of my concerns, but also the increased skill points of a savage bard help alleviate the ur-priest's painful skill reqs. Though you make a good point with the increased amount of turning attempts.

Ohh, right. I forgot clerics got awful skill points. I'll use cloistered cleric instead - same number of skill points as a bard! =)

Edit: Okay, yeah, I can't QUITE have enough points in bluff at level 5 that way...

Double Edit: Wait, yes I can... Trickery domain! With that, plus the free knowledge domain from Cloistered Cleric, every one of those skills is a class skill. =D

[Yorae]

Here's the build I finally worked out. Any comments/criticisms/suggestions?

Also, any recommendations for good cleric spells to prepare for this guy? Maybe there's a cleric tanking guide somewhere I can steal from?

Human with 2 flaws
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1269/tanky.png

[Fax Celestis]

Murky-Eyed is a horrible flaw to take. Try Vulnerable.

[Lateral]

Yeah, Vulnerable is the go-to flaw for pretty much anyone. -1 AC means very little past the first few levels, and you've got armor anyway.

As what is essentially a normal RKV with better spells, you should probably pick up Persistent Spell and DMM: Persist as usual. Looks like you didn't on there; I'd drop the Combat Expertise/Improved Trip and pick up Stand Still and Extend Spell at first, since this build's more than a little feat-starved. At 9th when you got Stand Still before, take Persistent Spell, and take DMM: Persist at 12th, Practiced Spellcaster at 15th, and Robilar's Gambit at 18th. Defensive Sweep isn't really necessary.

You need turning/rebuking attempts to fuel Divine Impetus as well as DMM with this build, though, so I wouldn't recommend DMMing too many spells (even though you get turning from two classes). Righteous Might is a good start. I might also try to up your CHA a bit (with items or something) and get some nightsticks to increase your numbers of turning attempts.