Call Lightning-Opinions?

[Elvencloud]

So I've been looking through Druid spells (and Shaman, as another player took the Storm domain as a totem) and I noticed in one of my books (a 3.0 supplement) stated that it had 1d10 per caster level as damage, and in 3.5 it had 3d6 per bolt.
I don't have a 3.0 player's guide, so I wasn't sure if that was only a single bolt, or not for that kind of damage.
Even so, do you think the 3.5 version is worth it? I've considered as DM to allow the 3.0 version (they have no arcane caster) as an option for blasting.
Thoughts?

[Hadessniper]

It's 3d6 unless the weather is stormy then it is 3d10. You can call a bolt multiple times per casting. Once per round as a standard action to concentrate on the spell up to your caster level (max of 10.)

There is also Call Lightning Storm which works the same way only it's 5d6/10 up to 15 times.

[Drynwyn]

well, the 3.5 version still deals 3d10 points of damage if performed in an outdoor area with stormy or near-stormy weather. However, the main weakness of call lightining isn't bad damage, it's a 1-round casting time. Consider allowng a bolt to be called on the turn the spell is cast.

[Hadessniper]

Call Lightning also works wonderfully with the Sculpt Spell feat. It lets you change to area of the spell from a 5-foot-wide, 30-foot-long, vertical bolt of lightning into four 10 foot cubes of lightning. In effect you get to hit at least 4 enemies with 3d6/10 per round for up to 10 rounds for only a +1 to the spells level.

If you get the skill trick to let you concentrate on a spell as a swift action it gets even better, you can deal 3d6/10 to four enemies for 10 rounds while still keeping your standard action free.

[Absol197]

well, the 3.5 version still deals 3d10 points of damage if performed in an outdoor area with stormy or near-stormy weather. However, the main weakness of call lightining isn't bad damage, it's a 1-round casting time. Consider allowng a bolt to be called on the turn the spell is cast.

Technically, you already can call a bolt on the round it's cast:


Immediately upon completion of the spell, and once per round thereafter, you may call down a 5-foot-wide, 30-foot-long, vertical bolt of lightning that deals 3d6 points of electricity damage. The bolt of lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke at whatever target point you choose within the spell’s range (measured from your position at the time). Any creature in the target square or in the path of the bolt is affected.

You need not call a bolt of lightning immediately; other actions, even spellcasting, can be performed. However, each round after the first you may use a standard action (concentrating on the spell) to call a bolt. You may call a total number of bolts equal to your caster level (maximum 10 bolts).

If you are outdoors and in a stormy area—a rain shower, clouds and wind, hot and cloudy conditions, or even a tornado (including a whirlwind formed by a djinni or an air elemental of at least Large size)—each bolt deals 3d10 points of electricity damage instead of 3d6.

This spell functions indoors or underground but not underwater.

Emphasis mine.

As for the OP, I don't like call lightning as much as other spells, but it has its uses: because the duration is in minutes, you can cast it before a delicate situation where casting would be in bad form, and then all it takes is a couple seconds' concentration (no obvious casting involved) to bring down a bolt of lightning. The damage isn't super, but it's sort of like sneaking a gun through the metal detector.

Plus, total damage dice-wise, it deals more than a lightning bolt or fireball of the same caster level, it's just more spread out (And can't target as many creatures).

[Greenish]

Technically, you already can call a bolt on the round it's cast:Since you finish casting just before your next turn, it's not the same round anymore.

[Absol197]

Since you finish casting just before your next turn, it's not the same round anymore.

... ... ... Uh, yeah... :smallredface: Forgot about that.

[Tvtyrant]

I like it with the sudden metamagic spells to let you apply them over and over again; sudden maximized makes it better than an equal level archer at a distance.

[Rejakor]

Metamagick'd swift action Call Lightning = Excellent, and one of the hallmarks of the druid mailman - also known as the distributed mail delivery system.

basic call lightning = worse than a reserve feat.

[Telok]

At 5th to 8th levels using Entangle, Obscuring Mist, and Call Lightning, together with a good Listen check can stop an encounter that's giving the party problems.

It's not something to pull out every fight, you can annoy the other party members pretty well with it. But it's nice to keep in reserve for when the others just can't cope with something.

[Dimers]

You can create your own storm (for purposes of increasing call lightning damage) by summoning air elementals with summon nature's ally 6 or higher. They're also capable combatants in their own right, so it's hardly a waste of a spell.

[Fax Celestis]

Metamagick'd swift action Call Lightning = Excellent

Quicken does not work that way.


Quicken Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit
Casting a quickened spell is an swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

[darksolitaire]

Rapid Spell would reduce casting time to one standard action at the cost of meagre +1 slot adjustment. You could quicken it afterwards.

[Zaq]

Metamagick'd swift action Call Lightning = Excellent, and one of the hallmarks of the druid mailman - also known as the distributed mail delivery system.

basic call lightning = worse than a reserve feat.

I would like to see this "Druid Mailman" you mention. I don't suppose you have a link? It seems like hardly any of the Mailman's tricks would work with a Druid (at least out of the box), so it should be a fun read.

[Fax Celestis]

Rapid Spell would reduce casting time to one standard action at the cost of meagre +1 slot adjustment. You could quicken it afterwards.

...which would slide it into an 8th level slot. Wouldn't you be better off with whirlwind, control weather, or storm of vengeance at that point? It's only 3d6/3d10 damage, and rapid+quickening it only makes it cast as a swift: you still have to concentrate as a standard to use it.

[Greenish]

I'm not sure how'd you make a mailman based on a spell that deals elemental damage and offers both save and SR. A blaster, certainly, even a strong one, but a mailman's key point is reliable delivery.

[darksolitaire]

...which would slide it into an 8th level slot. Wouldn't you be better off with whirlwind, control weather, or storm of vengeance at that point? It's only 3d6/3d10 damage, and rapid+quickening it only makes it cast as a swift: you still have to concentrate as a standard to use it.

I'd skip Call Lightning entirely at all levels, and concentrate on those juicy 4th level Flame Strikes and 7th level firestorms. Perhaps with metamagic.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, druids cast divine spells, so if he gets a way to turn/rebuke undead, he can DMM Shenanigans...

[Greenish]

Well, druids cast divine spells, so if he gets a way to turn/rebuke undead, he can DMM Shenanigans...Which would be fine, except that Call Lightning can only call a limited amount of bolts, no matter how you extend it's duration, so you'd probably be better off persisting something else, unless you have silly amounts of TU.

[Darth Stabber]

Druid is good at a great many things, I really don't know why you would want to focus on DD, since it is almost arguably the worst specialization for any sort caster (hence the weakness of warmages). Call lightning is a FUN spell, and I would never fault a druid player for prep'ing one or two for playing pretend archery (lord knows I've done it many times, despite knowledge that it's crap.

[Gnaeus]

basic call lightning = worse than a reserve feat.

basic call lightning = a spell used to power a reserve feat.

[ericgrau]

Though a reserve feat takes a feat. It's a good last spell when you run out, or you can sub it for a summon earlier if you don't think the fight/day will go long.

I've also seen it semi-cheesed with 1/day sudden metamagic, though past level 6 even that's not overwhelming.

[faceroll]

Call lightning is a terrible spell with only a few niche uses. The damage is so small on that 3d6 bolt, it hardly counts as blasting. That's an average of 10 damage, 5 on a save. What kind of party members do you have if you can't greataxe someone for more than 10 points of damage a round?

I would never prepare it, unless wildshape wasn't allowed (and even then, Aspect of the Wolf is still pretty boss at 5th level). Druids should be played like gishes.


Well, druids cast divine spells, so if he gets a way to turn/rebuke undead, he can DMM Shenanigans...

Once. With one DMM feat applied (I would ocular persist lesser creeping cold for loldamage). It'd be hard to do a mailman build with a druid, and call lightning is DEFINITELY not the spell for reliable delivery. SR: Yes and Reflex: half means that spells isn't getting through by the time you can afford the metamagic.


Though a reserve feat takes a feat. It's a good last spell when you run out, or you can sub it for a summon earlier if you don't think the fight/day will go long.

Eh, by the time you get it, you can already wildshape. I'd rather spend my standard action using ape morph to sling magic stones or hit stuff with a quarterstaff wielded in both hands.

A good last spell when you run out would be a 50 minute buff that improves your next 500 attacks.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Once. With one DMM feat applied (I would ocular persist lesser creeping cold for loldamage). It'd be hard to do a mailman build with a druid, and call lightning is DEFINITELY not the spell for reliable delivery. SR: Yes and Reflex: half means that spells isn't getting through by the time you can afford the metamagic.

I was referring to Grennish's comment about making a druid Mailman, not necessarily in reference to Call Lightning. I agree that it is a sub-par spell in general.

[faceroll]

I was referring to Grennish's comment about making a druid Mailman, not necessarily in reference to Call Lightning. I agree that it is a sub-par spell in general.

Divine casters just don't get the metamagic mitigation necessary to really pump damage on their blasty spells.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Divine casters just don't get the metamagic mitigation necessary to really pump damage on their blasty spells.

They can if they can get an area effect spell to crank out damage, then persist it...

Produce Flame comes close, actually. Using the fire as a thrown weapon means you get iteratives with it. An argument can even be made for TWF. Persisted, the duration becomes 24 hours, which means you have 1440 uses before it runs out. In other words... probably not going to happen.

Unfortunately, you still have SR and Fire Resistance to deal with...

[faceroll]

They can if they can get an area effect spell to crank out damage, then persist it...

Produce Flame comes close, actually. Using the fire as a thrown weapon means you get iteratives with it. An argument can even be made for TWF. Persisted, the duration becomes 24 hours, which means you have 1440 uses before it runs out. In other words... probably not going to happen.

Unfortunately, you still have SR and Fire Resistance to deal with...

I just don't see a 1d6+5 SR: Yes spell ever competing with nested Arcane Fused orbs with every metamagic feat attached to them. TWF with produce flame gets you to what, near vanilla Warlock levels of damage? And I don't think I'd ever call a warlock a "mailman", not even one abusing Hellfire.

Persisted ocular icestorm, maybe, if you can get your opponent to stand in it.

The whole thesis of a mailman is that the damage he does is almost always: Yes, you take damage. And in most cases, the damage is "enough". Outside of epic feats, a 4th level spell, and a handful of defense builds, the mailman reliably does damage to virtually everything. Divine casters largely lack the tools requisite for such a build. I'm sure there are some SR: No, Save: none spells you can find, but being able to stack a single piece of mitigated metamagic on it kind of blows.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Persisted ocular icestorm, maybe, if you can get your opponent to stand in it.

The whole thesis of a mailman is that the damage he does is almost always: Yes, you take damage. And in most cases, the damage is "enough". Outside of epic feats, a 4th level spell, and a handful of defense builds, the mailman reliably does damage to virtually everything. Divine casters largely lack the tools requisite for such a build. I'm sure there are some SR: No, Save: none spells you can find, but being able to stack a single piece of mitigated metamagic on it kind of blows.

I am aware of this. That's why I said 'almost'...

Although a Warlock comes damn close to a Mailman, since he does untyped damage. The only problem is the SR: yes. The feat that turns it into a (Su) ability fixes this.

[Rejakor]

'almost' implies 'nearly', not 'not at all'. Which is what persisted produce flame gives you.

A warlock comes 'damn close' to a mailman in the same way a poodle comes 'damn close' to a saint bernard in a eating contest. Even Hellfire Mortalbane Quicken SLA Empower SLA Maximize SLA warlocks aren't doing 'enough' damage to oneshot similar CR creatures, which the mailman is easily doing from level 5+. And Metamagic SLA warlocks run into serious per day problems a mailman completely ignores.


The druid mailman is fairly suboptimal unless you pull ocular spell shenanigans. However there's a few cost reducers druids get to use and they can pull off some shared spell shenanigans pretty easily. They don't have a handbook or a writeup I could link you to, though, to my knowledge. I've seen a few around, but again, rarely.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A warlock comes 'damn close' to a mailman in the same way a poodle comes 'damn close' to a saint bernard in a eating contest. Even Hellfire Mortalbane Quicken SLA Empower SLA Maximize SLA warlocks aren't doing 'enough' damage to oneshot similar CR creatures, which the mailman is easily doing from level 5+. And Metamagic SLA warlocks run into serious per day problems a mailman completely ignores.

I would strongly disagree with this. After a while, damage is simply blow-through. There was a thread on this earlier, actually. HFW is easily one-shotting anything in it's path, even without MetaSLA. There's no difference between 1,000 damage and 100,000.

[Elvencloud]

Sorry to interrupt, but does anyone have the info on the 3.0 version of call lightning?

[ericgrau]

3.0:
In stormy outdoors area only.
Casting time 10 minutes
lasts 10 minutes per level, 1 bolt per 10 minutes, standard action for each bolt. Can take other actions in between bolts.
1d10 per caster level, max 10d10.

Back to 3.5 call lightning, I thought I'd check out a 6 HD bear. It seems about the same damage as call lightning, same chance of "hitting", and a little over twice as much damage on a full attack. But call lightning still does half damage on a "miss", so really it's a little more than half as good rather than a little less than half as good. Add in the ability to hit 1-4 targets rather than 1 only and it seems way better against all but single foes, and then it's only a little worse. That's because you normally target grid intersections with a line spell and the example line spell, lightning bolt, is also 5 feet wide yet hits creatures in a line 2 spaces wide (or whatever squares touch the line you select).

[HunterOfJello]

if the old casting time was 10 minutes then for practical purposes the two spells have almost nothing in common other than their name

~

As far as 3.5e Call Lightning goes, I think the spell is fine as-is. It obviously isn't a powerhouse evocation spell, but it's a very useful spell that gives good results over time. The spell shoots down lightning as a standard action, but lasts for minute/level so you can cast it before or at the beginning of a battle and use it whenever you feel that it's appropriate. The spell is a much better damage source than a sling and many other druid spells.