Using Natural Weapons at range?

[AngelisBlack]

I have several players who are interested in making either monks or natural weapon fighters (claw, bite, tail, etc). Are there any magic items that a person can use to deliver their natural attacks at range? If not, is it possible to make a custom item using the Wonderous Item creation rules? Because I remember there was one spell that allowed natural weapons to be used at range but I don't remember what it was called.

[CodeRed]

Ring the Golden Bell feat from Dragon Magazine 319 lets you use your unarmed strike a few times per day at range based on your Wisdom but it's pretty much only a monk feat.

I think its also reprinted in Dragon Compendium.

[Zaq]

The spell is Blood Wind, I believe. If memory serves (my book's closed), it's a 1st-level Evocation Sor/Wiz spell. If you're the GM and you're amenable to letting these folks do it, it shouldn't be hard to make an item of it. I guess the price would depend on whether they want it continuously or a certain number of times per day.

[Ashram]

To elaborate on Zaq's post, Blood Wind is from Spell Compendium, 1st level Sor/Wiz evocation spell:

"The subject can take a full attack action to use all of its natural weapons or unarmed strikes as if they were thrown weapons with a 20-foot range increment. The subject gestures as if making a melee attack, but the result of the attack affects a target within range. This spell does not actually grant reach, and so does not help provide a flanking bonus or allow the subject to make attacks of opportunity at any range greater than normal. The subject uses its normal melee attack bonuses and deals damage normally if it hits, though the target of the attacks can benefit from cover or concealment."

Swift action casting time, 1 round duration.

[Seerow]

Using the magic item creation rules, getting a continuous item of that spell would cost 1x1x2000x4 = 8000gp if I recall correctly.

[Veyr]

Using the magic item creation rules, getting a continuous item of that spell would cost 1x1x2000x4 = 8000gp if I recall correctly.
Yes, but those are also guidelines, which is why we really can't say with any certainty.

I definitely don't think Blood Wind is a spell that is especially warranting a price increase, though.

[raxies94]

I don't know about items, but if they want to use their natural attacks through wildshape or something similar, then the warshaper has an ability that gives natural weapons reach as long as the user is shapeshifted.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Enchant your natural weapons with the throwing property. Do this by taking levels in kensai or buying the relatively cheap necklace of natural weapons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a). +1 throwing returning is even given as an example for the necklace.

[herrhauptmann]

Couldn't they play a bloodstorm blade? Makes your fists as 'returning' weapons.
There's also I think Kensai/kensei, with chosen weapon being your own fists.

[Greenish]

Putting throwing returning on your unarmed strikes is not a great idea, since you only have one and it'll only return on the start of the next turn.

[MarkusWolfe]

Be a troll, rip your arm off and throw it at the enemy. Then go over to your enemy, beat him to death with your other arm and once he's done pick up your arm and put it back on.

[herrhauptmann]

Be a troll, rip your arm off and throw it at the enemy. Then go over to your enemy, beat him to death with your other arm and once he's done pick up your arm and put it back on.
Frikkin awesome. Probably worth a feat just for awesome factor.


Putting throwing returning on your unarmed strikes is not a great idea, since you only have one and it'll only return on the start of the next turn.
Hence the bloodstorm blade, who can make full attacks throwing his melee weapon.
Besides, you can 'throw' your fist. Then kick anyone for your AOOs. Rules don't say that "Unarmed strike" is only punching.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Besides, you can 'throw' your fist. Then kick anyone for your AOOs. Rules don't say that "Unarmed strike" is only punching.

Actually, by RAW, only monks can kick, it's stated in the monks unarmed strike.

[Greenish]

Actually, by RAW, only monks can kick, it's stated in the monks unarmed strike.What's this then?
Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon…

No, the problem is that you only have one unarmed strike, no matter what part of your body you're using, so once you throw it, you can't make more attacks with it..

[Ashram]

What's this then?

No, the problem is that you only have one unarmed strike, no matter what part of your body you're using, so once you throw it, you can't make more attacks with it..

I wouldn't allow Throwing/Returning on a fist anyway. Unless you're a Warforged, you do not have rocket fists. >.>

[Rejakor]

Bleh. 'I wouldn't allow completely reasonable thing because it sounds odd'.

So you can accept magic items that turn people into mist or let mountains float, but not one that lets a big cat fire it's claws at people and then regrow them before the end of the round? Or slash the air and cause someone damage a bit away from them?

eurgh. god forbid a fantasy game should be fantastical.

[Necroticplague]

Frikkin awesome. Probably worth a feat just for awesome factor.


Be a troll, rip your arm off and throw it at the enemy. Then go over to your enemy, beat him to death with your other arm and once he's done pick up your arm and put it back on.


I actually think their is a monstrous feat for this in savage species. IIRC, it's called Detach, and it requires regeneration (and possibly high con?).

[Funkyodor]

Just hope the target doesn't have Snatch Arrows feat...

[Godskook]

I wouldn't allow Throwing/Returning on a fist anyway. Unless you're a Warforged, you do not have rocket fists. >.>

I'd allow it if done via properly magic routes, such as a NoNA.

I wouldn't allow it via Bloodstorm Blade simply cause there should be too much bleeding involved, except for the corner case of persons with regeneration, and even then, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with an (Ex) way of doing it.

[Alleine]

I actually think their is a monstrous feat for this in savage species. IIRC, it's called Detach, and it requires regeneration (and possibly high con?).

Unfortunately it says that tearing off bits of yourself to throw is "traumatic", and deals 1/4 of your hp in nonlethal damage. Not so great if you fall unconscious after chucking your fist at them for the 4th time. :smallannoyed:

[Necroticplague]

Unfortunately it says that tearing off bits of yourself to throw is "traumatic", and deals 1/4 of your hp in nonlethal damage. Not so great if you fall unconscious after chucking your fist at them for the 4th time. :smallannoyed:

Well, if you have regeneration, then you would have healed a little each round, so you won't be unconcious, only almost unconcious. Also, immunity to nonlethal damage (pale master, ghheden, crimson scourge, warforged juggernaut).

[Stripes]

I think having a continuous item of Blood Wind is worth well more than 8000 gp. It doesn't just give you reach, it lets you attack with natural weapons at range as if they were throwing weapons (i.e. 30 feet). This is arguably better than reach for a PC using natural weapons, as they rarely need reach for things like tripping/AoO's. Typically, PC's using natural weapons are exploiting the inherent superiority of dealing damage with natural weapons over dealing damage with manufactured weapons (there is nothing wrong with this, btw).

Reach itself is likely worth more than 8000 gp, so a continuous item of Blood Wind would be worth substantially more than that, in my book anyway.

[Coidzor]

Reach itself is likely worth more than 8000 gp, so a continuous item of Blood Wind would be worth substantially more than that, in my book anyway.

Reach is not worth more than 8000 gp unless you're really inflating the price of a pretty crummy feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#exoticWeaponProficiency)


Typically, PC's using natural weapons are exploiting the inherent superiority of dealing damage with natural weapons over dealing damage with manufactured weapons (there is nothing wrong with this, btw).

There is no inherent superiority of dealing damage with natural weapons as far as I know. So, if I've missed something, please elaborate. Natural weapons seem to mostly be inherently weaker than manufactured weapons due to their generally poor damage dice, critical ranges, critical values, and amount of strength to damage and have additional hoops that must be jumped through in order to use them effectively in a variety of contexts. Like against incorporeal creatures, say.

The only advantage natural weapons have as far as I've been able to tell is that if one can get a lot of them, they only attack at one's second BAB iterative at the worst, which doesn't relate to their dealing damage so much as their ability to hit relative to the whiffy hits of an iterative-based fighting type.

[MeeposFire]

Reach is not worth more than 8000 gp unless you're really inflating the price of a pretty crummy feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#exoticWeaponProficiency)



There is no inherent superiority of dealing damage with natural weapons. Natural weapons are inherently weaker than manufactured weapons and have additional hoops that must be jumped through in order to use them effectively in a variety of contexts. Like against incorporeal creatures, say.

The only advantage natural weapons have is that if one can get a lot of them, they only attack at one's second BAB iterative at the worst, which doesn't relate to their dealing damage so much as their ability to hit relative to the whiffy hits of an iterative-based fighting type.

Well that feat is considered bad if you are taking it for damage but it is considered really good if you are getting improved reach (by improved I mean can use against adjacent).

[AngelisBlack]

Wow I did not expect this kind of response. To be honest there would be no way I'd give someone a continuous item of Blood Wind. I'd probably do a 3/day thing and along with the Wonderous Item pricing guidelines I'd just put it at 4800-5000GP. But with all the responses here I can give my players what they want and still make the game fun. Oh, and where is Bloodstorm Blade from anyway?

[MeeposFire]

Blood storm blade is from tome of battle.

If you don't like continuous you could make that magic item essentially be an at will item. As in you can use that spell at will but it will cost you a swift action to use just like the spell. This way there is still a cost (though not a bad one) and it is in the power range of what a warlock would do (as in at will low level magic effects).

[Stripes]

Reach is not worth more than 8000 gp unless you're really inflating the price of a pretty crummy feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#exoticWeaponProficiency)
as noted by the previous poster, it depends on why you are taking the feat. if you are taking it to get Spiked Chain, it is a great feat. If you are taking it to get kama proficiency, it is not a good feat.


There is no inherent superiority of dealing damage with natural weapons as far as I know. So, if I've missed something, please elaborate. Natural weapons seem to mostly be inherently weaker than manufactured weapons due to their generally poor damage dice, critical ranges, critical values, and amount of strength to damage and have additional hoops that must be jumped through in order to use them effectively in a variety of contexts. Like against incorporeal creatures, say.

The only advantage natural weapons have as far as I've been able to tell is that if one can get a lot of them, they only attack at one's second BAB iterative at the worst, which doesn't relate to their dealing damage so much as their ability to hit relative to the whiffy hits of an iterative-based fighting type.
Ability to hit is no different than dealing damage, they are one and the same. If you can deal a ton of damage but cannot hit, you are still useless. This is why Shock Trooper is worthwhile for a charging build. A typical PC using natural weapons typically has many more attacks, has higher attack bonuses, hits more often and deals more damage on a regular basis than a typical manufactured weapons user.

There are always exceptions to the rule, such as an optimized charger using Shock Trooper, etc. However, assuming equal levels of optimization a natural weapons user deals more damage than a manufactured weapons user.

[Greenish]

A typical PC using natural weapons typically has many more attacks, has higher attack bonuses, hits more often and deals more damage on a regular basis than a typical manufactured weapons user.What's a "typical natural weapons user"? A pimped-out totemist? A guy who happens to have 1d4 slam from his races?

[Stripes]

What's a "typical natural weapons user"? A pimped-out totemist? A guy who happens to have 1d4 slam from his races?

I assumed this would be obvious: a druid.

[Greenish]

I assumed this would be obvious: a druid.Is a typical manufactured weapon user a cleric, then?

[MeeposFire]

Also druids can turn into anything so their natural weapons will always be changing. I am not sure how many natural weapons make it better than manufactured, probably 3. The advantages in natural weapons are partially negated by the typical issues with natural weapons in terms of enhancement especially if you have lots of natural weapons. Notice that totemists and the like get around that somewhat.

[HunterOfJello]

2 levels in totemist can get a character a fun ranged natural attack with the Manticore Belt

[Stripes]

Is a typical manufactured weapon user a cleric, then?

I fail to see how following an off-topic tangent will benefit the discussion, so please excuse me for not bothering to answer this question.

[herrhauptmann]

I fail to see how following an off-topic tangent will benefit the discussion, so please excuse me for not bothering to answer this question.

Then make a separate thread and continue the discussion there...


To the OP:
Anything else we can help you with?

As an offshoot, I wonder if it would be possible to use Bloodwind as part of a charge.
[swift action] Cast bloodwind
[free action] talk
[regular action] Charge to 30ft and hit while still out of range.
Gotta stop at the closest square where you can hit the enemy. And with bloodwind, that's 25 + 5ft/2 CL.
Then give that to an ubercharger. Suddenly his 2 AC doesn't matter so much because his enemy now has to approach him (or sit back and cast/shoot)

[Greenish]

I fail to see how following an off-topic tangent will benefit the discussion, so please excuse me for not bothering to answer this question.I'm just pointing out that it seems your claim that a "typical natural weapon user" is better off than a "typical manufactured weapon user" seems to be based on the unstated premise where the former is a stronger class than the latter, which means that your implication that natural weapons are better than manufactured ones has not been proved, and since that relates to the original topic via the question of pricing an item, we're not even really going off-topic, but that probably has less to do with your refusal to continue the discussion than the fact that you know, in your heart of hearts, that your claim is as hollow as your only argument. :smallamused:

[Stripes]

I'm just pointing out that it seems your claim that a "typical natural weapon user" is better off than a "typical manufactured weapon user" seems to be based on the unstated premise where the former is a stronger class than the latter, which means that your implication that natural weapons are better than manufactured ones has not been proved, and since that relates to the original topic via the question of pricing an item, we're not even really going off-topic, but that probably has less to do with your refusal to continue the discussion than the fact that you know, in your heart of hearts, that your claim is as hollow as your only argument. :smallamused:
{{scrubbed}}

[Greenish]

{{scrubbed}}.Saying "no, you're wrong, and it's obvious so I'm not going to even explain why" isn't much of an argument.

As for comparing a fighter and a dragon? Why? Dragons can use manufactured weapons. Give one a greatsword and power attack, and see how the damage compares.


[Edit]: A thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202954), just for us (and others interested). :smalltongue:

[Stripes]

Saying "no, you're wrong, and it's obvious so I'm not going to even explain why" isn't much of an argument.

As for comparing a fighter and a dragon? Why? Dragons can use manufactured weapons. Give one a greatsword and power attack, and see how the damage compares.

It isn't meant to be an argument, it is merely a statement. Speaking of arguments, when are you going to make one? Simply saying "that's not much of an argument" when you haven't even attempted to make on yourself, and have instead only attempted to bring up tangential unimportant assumptions of yours, is a little disingenuous, don't you think?

As for giving a dragon a greatsword, that made me LOL.

[Glimbur]

Bloodwind lets one use natural attacks as thrown weapons with a range increment of 20'.

This means that several people in this thread were acting on faulty information.

1) It's not the same as reach, exactly, because though it is longer reach than most people get it is a thrown weapon and therefore cannot threaten an area.

2)As a ranged weapon, it cannot be used as part of the charge action.

That's all I wanted to say.

[herrhauptmann]

Bloodwind lets one use natural attacks as thrown weapons with a range increment of 20'.

This means that several people in this thread were acting on faulty information.

1) It's not the same as reach, exactly, because though it is longer reach than most people get it is a thrown weapon and therefore cannot threaten an area.

2)As a ranged weapon, it cannot be used as part of the charge action.

That's all I wanted to say.

1)Range increment of 20: You take penalties for thrown weapons after 5 range increments. So it can be thrown farther than 20ft (spell range is 25 +5/2CL.)
2)You're right, it's not the same as reach. Reach gets you the chance to AOO someone who isn't adjacent to you. But bloodwind is ALMOST as good as reach. Unless your character relies on AOOs.
3)But it's not a ranged weapon. We're not trying to use a bow+arrow as part of a charge. Or a sling. Or a shuriken. Still doing the same motions as before, just at a distance.
4)Isn't there a feat that lets you throw something as part of a charge? I remember that CWar lets you use power attack with a thrown weapon.

edit:
Can't believe I never noticed that it's claws/punches only. Could've sworn it included manufactured weapons as well...

[MeeposFire]

Well you could be a bloodstorm blade and that would allow you to charge at range anyway.

[herrhauptmann]

Well you could be a bloodstorm blade and that would allow you to charge at range anyway.

With a manufactured weapon, YES.
However, I don't always want to play a dwarf or stoneblessed character. So it'd be cool to find other options.

Perhaps homebrew some upgrades of bloodwind.
2nd level spell: 'light' weapons. Close range.
3rd level spell: 'one handed' weapons. Medium range.
4th level spell: 'two handed' weapons. Long range.
Although Long range is pretty useless in this case. The spell grants a range increment of 20 feet. And thrown weapons are limited to what, 5 increments?

[MeeposFire]

With a manufactured weapon, YES.
However, I don't always want to play a dwarf or stoneblessed character. So it'd be cool to find other options.

Perhaps homebrew some upgrades of bloodwind.
2nd level spell: 'light' weapons. Close range.
3rd level spell: 'one handed' weapons. Medium range.
4th level spell: 'two handed' weapons. Long range.
Although Long range is pretty useless in this case. The spell grants a range increment of 20 feet. And thrown weapons are limited to what, 5 increments?

bloodstorm blade is not dwarf only and it does not technically force you to use manufactured weapons. I think with bloodwind bloodstorm blade would work but I am wrong because it won't work with thunderous blow (the ability that allows you to treat ranged weapons as melee) since it requires a swift action as does blood wind so action economy screws us again.

[Darrin]

2 levels in totemist can get a character a fun ranged natural attack with the Manticore Belt

This requires some hand-waving via a cooperative DM. The spikes aren't identified as natural weapons, nor do they have any other features which are common to natural weapons.

[Person_Man]

Here's the relevant guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) to increasing your size and reach. If you strictly want natural weapons/unarmed strike as a ranged weapons, then your options have already been outlined. However, if you just want to be able to make natural weapon/unarmed strikes at 10+ feet (which in many ways is a superior option because it allows you to make AoO in a wide area), then there are a ton of other options listed on that thread. My top suggestions would be Totemist, Druid, Wildshape Ranger, Psychic Warrior, Monk 1/Psychic Warrior 18 with the Tashalatora feat, or Binder/Sorcerer/Anima Mage (Ronove and Zagon vestiges with various magical buffs).

[hyzigov]

As a related side question, IS there a spell/feat like blood wind for manufactured weapons? Got a samurai type character, and it would be neat to do the "Cut the candles in half from across the room" trick without actually flinging a katana about.

I suppose stacking all kinds of +Reach stuff could do it too, but nowhere near as satisfyingly.

[MarkusWolfe]

Well, if you have regeneration, then you would have healed a little each round, so you won't be unconcious, only almost unconcious. Also, immunity to nonlethal damage (pale master, ghheden, crimson scourge, warforged juggernaut).

I've seen a guy do it with a straight troll. Well, let me rephrase: I know a guy who did it with a straight troll. He also had some combination of classes that effectively made him the Hulk, getting bigger and more powerful as the battle went on. I don't know what combination of feats he used to do it, though I could ask him if anyone has a burning desire to know.

[Keld Denar]

As a related side question, IS there a spell/feat like blood wind for manufactured weapons?

There are a couple. Whirling Blade in CArc/SpC is the most common and works with all slashing weapons (also lets you attack all foes in a 60' direct line, no iteratives though), but theres a few others...Triadsteel or something like that is in a more obscure book and basically animates 3 weapons.

[hyzigov]

Ah, but whirling blade is another sword flinger, and Triadsteel sounds the same, although they fling themselves. Nothing that allows you to cut the air itself to cause damage over range?

[MeeposFire]

Bind Otiax (or was it orthos I get them confused sometimes). Hold a katana and use air blasts to attack things up to 10 feet away?

[Veyr]

It's Otiax.

[Keld Denar]

Ah, but whirling blade is another sword flinger, and Triadsteel sounds the same, although they fling themselves. Nothing that allows you to cut the air itself to cause damage over range?

See, I always prefered to fluff it as a Swordbeam, rather than making your weapon behave boomerang-like.

Speaking of Boomerangs though, Telekinetic Boomerang (RotW?) does something very similar, IIRC. Tack on Burrowing Power and you should be able to throw your weapons through walls to cut people on the other side.

[Runestar]

As a related side question, IS there a spell/feat like blood wind for manufactured weapons? Got a samurai type character, and it would be neat to do the "Cut the candles in half from across the room" trick without actually flinging a katana about.

I suppose stacking all kinds of +Reach stuff could do it too, but nowhere near as satisfyingly.

That is how I have always interpreted the lightning throw maneuver from tome of battle. :smalltongue:

http://mh.xindm.cn/display.asp?id=840&page=12
http://mh.xindm.cn/display.asp?id=840&page=13

[Rejakor]

1)Range increment of 20: You take penalties for thrown weapons after 5 range increments. So it can be thrown farther than 20ft (spell range is 25 +5/2CL.)
2)You're right, it's not the same as reach. Reach gets you the chance to AOO someone who isn't adjacent to you. But bloodwind is ALMOST as good as reach. Unless your character relies on AOOs.
3)But it's not a ranged weapon. We're not trying to use a bow+arrow as part of a charge. Or a sling. Or a shuriken. Still doing the same motions as before, just at a distance.
4)Isn't there a feat that lets you throw something as part of a charge? I remember that CWar lets you use power attack with a thrown weapon.

edit:
Can't believe I never noticed that it's claws/punches only. Could've sworn it included manufactured weapons as well...

Uh... sorry? It lets you use your unarmed attack as a thrown weapon. That's pretty clear right there. It's not a bow or an arrow. It's a spell letting you use a melee weapon as a ranged weapon. Whether that's because of wind, or time/space warping, or you're literally taking off your claws and hurling them, I don't know, that's up to you, but the mechanical effect is very clear.

It's not a melee attack. It's a ranged attack. So you can't, say, power attack. Bloodstorm Blade's throwing ability that lets you count thrown attacks as melee attacks? That's a melee attack. Cause it says it is. Not cause you're using a melee weapon to throw, because it specifically says that it counts as a melee attack. If the spell says that it's a ranged attack, it's a ranged attack. So you can't AoO with it, you can't charge with it, you can't power attack with it, you can't combat expertise with it, etc etc. Saying otherwise is blatantly not RAW.

As for people saying it's broken or whatever... may I introduce you to the glove of endless throwing knives... ranged thrown attacks, for the low low price of 2200gp.. don't even need Quick Draw. Or hell, just pick up a kitchen knife, cost 2sp. Seriously. Natural attacks as thrown attacks is about as broken as picking up a frickin' knife and throwing it at someone.