Thought Experiment: Hit Me, I Dare You!

[Amphetryon]

Working on the Ghostwalker Iron Chef competition got me thinking along this line. Ignoring (Craft) Contingent Spell shenanigans, how would you go about building a character predicated on being hit in combat - melee or ranged - and having those hits damage the opponent/opponents for more than the damage done the character?

I'm aware of the Jack B. Quick build, and the Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike pairing toward a similar goal, but I'm looking for more immediate methods of causing your opponent's attacks to both successfully hit a character, and be immediately more harmful to that opponent and - if possible - that opponent's teammates.

[evil-frosty]

Well there is the third level wizard spell Reverse Arrows, which does exactly what the name implies. Not sure if that's what you are looking for.

[Big Fau]

The Gambit+Karmic Strike+A Scout ACF can give you a lot of attacks to punish your opponents. Not very practical since you have a low HD and light armor, but you can potentially kill them before they hit you.

[Tancred]

Are you looking for feats, items like Ring of Vengeance (MIC), or spells like Fire Shield?

Or all of the above?

[Amphetryon]

Are you looking for feats, items like Ring of Vengeance (MIC), or spells like Fire Shield?

Or all of the above?

A collection of all of the above, and any builds you've put together that work on the idea of getting hit in order to cause Grievous Bodily Harm to the guy that hit you.

[Tancred]

I've not built such a character before, but now I want to...

A quick bout of search-fu reveals the following spells and items:

PHB:
Holy / Unholy Aura
Fire Shield

Spell Compendium:
Acid Sheath
Fire Shield, Mass
Reverse Arrows

Magic Item Compendium:
Burnoose of 1,001 Thorns*
Crown of Flames (casts Fire Shield)**
Energy Defense (armour property)**
Electric Eel Hide*
Retributive Amulet**
Ring of Vengeance
Rings of Force Armor
Robe of Thunder*

*Requires activation (swift or standard action)
**Requires activation (immediate action)

Would love to see others help pad this list out :smallsmile:

[Telonius]

Working on the Ghostwalker Iron Chef competition got me thinking along this line. Ignoring (Craft) Contingent Spell shenanigans, how would you go about building a character predicated on being hit in combat - melee or ranged - and having those hits damage the opponent/opponents for more than the damage done the character?

I'm aware of the Jack B. Quick build, and the Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike pairing toward a similar goal, but I'm looking for more immediate methods of causing your opponent's attacks to both successfully hit a character, and be immediately more harmful to that opponent and - if possible - that opponents teammates.

I came up with something similar quite a while ago - Knight with Vow of Peace. The idea is to use Knight's Challenge to cause people to attack you. The attacker has to get through four levels of defenses to successfully damage you. First, save to not be pacified when it approaches. Then (if memory serves) a will save to attack you. third, roll to hit (might fail AC). Fourth, if it hits, roll to prevent the weapon from shattering. The fifth and final level of defense is your HP, which (as a Knight) is rocking at d12+Con per level. Failure at any roll results in either a shattered weapon, a pacified foe, a whiffed attack, or an attack on the Knight's strongest defense. Regardless, the target is basically out of the fight. It will eventually fail one of its rolls.

[Amphetryon]

I came up with something similar quite a while ago - Knight with Vow of Peace. The idea is to use Knight's Challenge to cause people to attack you. The attacker has to get through four levels of defenses to successfully damage you. First, save to not be pacified when it approaches. Then (if memory serves) a will save to attack you. third, roll to hit (might fail AC). Fourth, if it hits, roll to prevent the weapon from shattering. The fifth and final level of defense is your HP, which (as a Knight) is rocking at d12+Con per level. Failure at any level results in either a shattered weapon, a pacified foe, or an attack on the Knight's strongest defense. Regardless, the target is basically out of the fight. It will eventually fail one of its saves.

Person_Man has a similar build, Saint Bertold. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5998772&postcount=2).

[Big Fau]

I just remembered a standard method of using Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike: Stormguard Warrior. They get to wail on you for a round, but you retaliate with a huge amount of damage next round, all at high accuracy.

IIRC, it goes:


Avalanche of Blades/Time Stands Still+Raging Mongoose, all of which are used to make Touch Attacks to fuel Stormguard Warrior.
During their turn, you use Gambit and Karmic Strike, then forgo all of the attacks of opportunity you are granted to fuel Stormguard Warrior.
During your next turn, you unleash either a Full Attack with a Belt of Battle or use Time Stands Still/Avalanche of Blades (whichever wasn't used).


Doing some math, if you are using TWFing and initiate Avalanche of Blades, and then hit with only 4 attacks from the AoB (but follow it up with Raging Mongoose for another 4), your next turn will be getting +40 damage/attack.

During their turn, if they hit you 3 times, you get 6 triggers off of Stormguard Warrior for an additional +24 to both attack rolls and damage rolls.

During your next turn, you use Time Stands Still and Dancing Mongoose with TWFing rules to get 16 attacks (7 from your first full attack, 7 from the second, and 2 from Dancing Mongoose), each with a minimum of a +24 bonus on the attack rolls, an with +64 damage/attack. Nothing holds up to that kind of punishment.


Later in the encounter, use a Master's Devoted Spirit Amulet to initiate Strike of Righteous Vitality to heal up.

[Telonius]

Person_Man has a similar build, Saint Bertold. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5998772&postcount=2).

I know Person_Man was the first one to actually flesh the thing out with a full build, but I'd first posted the idea in July (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117186)of that year. Pretty sure I was the first one on the boards to suggest it. Not that I keep track of such things of course. :smallbiggrin:

[Rejakor]

With a Retributive Amulet and that binder vestige that grants hostile shield other, you take 25% they take 75%. With Share Pain and a psycrystal and Vigor, you take 12.5% on your THP, and they take 75%.

Then you put up fire shield, fires of purity (they stack), and the various retributive spells (retributive burst etc).

[T.G. Oskar]

Reminds me of Shneekey's Shinji build; basically, comboing Empathic Feedback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicFeedback.htm) with Hostile Empathic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransferHostile.htm). The first returns 5 points +1 point per PP worth of melee damage, the rest is cycled through the second power which basically heals you and damages the other.

There's also Divine Vengeance, but it's a bit hard to pull (spend a TU attempt, take damage before 3 rounds, then you can return that exact amount of melee damage before the next 3 rounds) since it's quite unpredictable.

[WinWin]

Anima Mage. Bind Dalhver Nar. Share Pain (su).

Metamagic feat. Retributive Spell.

Uttercold Assault tactics can synergise pretty well with this concept. Especially if the caster is a Necropolitan or Tomb Tainted.

Plenty of low level buffs. Balor Nimbus, Babau Slime, Barbs of the Hamatula (Just a few of many spells from SC). +those mentioned above. Complete Mage has a whole line of Karmic Spells (Karmic Aura, Karmic Backlash, Coat of Arms, Karmic Retribution, Retributive Enervation to name a few). Sadism and Masochism should both apply, since you are both taking and dealing damage...but luck Boni do not stack.

Temporary hit point generation in order to benefit from 'taking damage' while not actually losing HP. To a lesser extent, DR (it has to be low enough not to nullify damage).

Magical items which do the same. Such as your burnoose of 1001 thorns or the belt of the salamander. Psionic Tatoos may also help here.

Technically, STP Erudite can Qualify for Anima Mage, but the +arcane spellcaster level won't benefit them without adaptation (even with Magic Mantle shenanigans I believe).

[Amphetryon]

All solid suggestions, WinWin. I'd be a bit concerned if the build were starting off at low level, as is typical in the games I've been involved in, but a mid-to-high level campaign could definitely be a good home for a masochist Anima Mage.

[Keld Denar]

Robilar's on a PsyWar with pimped out Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire is a pretty wicked combo. You gain temp HP equal to half of the base weapon damage with claws. If you stack your size mods up high enough that you are swinging 8d6-12d6 claws, you'll be gaining 4d6-6d6 temp HP every time you hit. With Robilar's, they'll hit you, you'll take the damage, and then you'll hit them back while gaining a nice amount of temp HP to buffer you from the foe's next attack. Basically, after the first hit, you gain DR equal to half of your base weapon damage while mauling the crap out of your opponent, since every swing at you will trigger more AoOs for more temp HP to replace the temp HP that attack removed.

[dextercorvia]

From the SpC:

Death Armor, Sor/Wiz2, deals 1d4+1/2CL to any creature attacking you. Persistable.

Wounding Whispers, Bard3, deals 1d6+CL to any creature attacking you. Persistable.

Backbiter, Sor/Wiz1, the next time the target weapon is used, it auto hits the wielder instead. Will negates

Corona of Cold, Cleric3/Druid3, 10' Aura of cold gives you Fire resistance and damages creatures in the area each round, Fort each round to avoid damage. Damaged creatures take penalties to Str and Dex. Persistable.

Negative Energy Aura, Cleric4, 10' Aura of Negative Energy, deals 1/3CL damage to living creatures every round. Persistable.

Righteous Aura, Pal4, Up to 20d6 damage to evil creatures if you die, heals good creatures. Make raising harder. Personal spell, best if you can figure out a way to cast it on disposable fodder. hour/level duration. Great for a Chameleon build.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My Shinji Ikari build focused on this... PsyWar.

His three best powers: Ectoplasmic Retribution (hit me with a ranged attack, get hit back), Empathic Feedback (hit me in melee, take damage in return), and Empathic Transfer, Hostile (hurt me enough, and I'll hurt you back, and heal the damage I just dealt you).

It gets stupid silly when you augment Empathic Transfer, Hostile to do an area-effect. Dealing 50 damage to each creature within 30', Will save for half, and heal the total damage you deal. Yea, that's what I'm talkin' about, baby!

Also, don't forget Vigor and (if you are worried about it) Biofeedback.

[dextercorvia]

A couple more options:

Scorpion Parry (ToB)

Random Deflector (Wild Mage, CA)

[Amphetryon]

My Shinji Ikari build focused on this... PsyWar.

His three best powers: Ectoplasmic Retribution (hit me with a ranged attack, get hit back), Empathic Feedback (hit me in melee, take damage in return), and Empathic Transfer, Hostile (hurt me enough, and I'll hurt you back, and heal the damage I just dealt you).

It gets stupid silly when you augment Empathic Transfer, Hostile to do an area-effect. Dealing 50 damage to each creature within 30', Will save for half, and heal the total damage you deal. Yea, that's what I'm talkin' about, baby!

Also, don't forget Vigor and (if you are worried about it) Biofeedback.

May I see a link to this build, please?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

May I see a link to this build, please?

Sure, this was the entry submission for my Test of Spite build, so level 13:

Shinji Ikari (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153286) the most emo being alive.

Augment Empathic Feedback to return up to 14 (with Overchannel) damage per hit. Augment Empathic Transfer, Hostile for the area effect version.

He took out Fistbeard Beardfist, but lost to some other build which one-hit KO'd him before he had a chance to return damage to sender, postage due.

If you're making a 'Wobufet' build, make sure to have some way to avoid dying.

[Zaq]

An Incarnate can use the Mantle of Flame to get retributive fire damage at level 1. It does scale, but not fast enough to outpace fire resistance.

If you bind Aym (also available at level 1), you get another retributive fire ability, but this one doesn't scale at all.

A cheeky azurin with one flaw can get a 4d6 3d6 flame shield all day every day at level 1, though. Take Binder as your level, bind Aym for 1d6. Take Shape Soulmeld: Mantle of Flame, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, and any feat that gives you a point of essentia. Dump two one essentia (you got one from your race, of course) in your Mantle of Flame, which now deals 3d6 2d6. Dice of damage have no reason not to stack, so anything that dares to touch you will have to suck up 4d6 3d6 fire damage. It'll be a few levels before ANYTHING will want to hit you in melee. (I discovered this trick at level 3 quite on accident while playing my old Binder/Incarnate. Beautiful, innit?)

[Fax Celestis]

Incarnate's Flamewreath (Fire Mantle? Something like that.) soulmeld burns back when hit. I've seen it coupled with legion of sentinels for shenanigans: initiate bull rush without Imp. Bull Rush feat, accept AoO, deal reciprocal damage, activate Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit, swing back twice, then shove them through the legion of sentinels for 1d8+1/3 CL per sentinel per square.

[dextercorvia]

An Incarnate can use the Mantle of Flame to get retributive fire damage at level 1. It does scale, but not fast enough to outpace fire resistance.

If you bind Aym (also available at level 1), you get another retributive fire ability, but this one doesn't scale at all.

A cheeky azurin with one flaw can get a 4d6 flame shield all day every day at level 1, though. Take Binder as your level, bind Aym for 1d6. Take Shape Soulmeld: Mantle of Flame, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, and any feat that gives you a point of essentia. Dump two essentia (you got one from your race, of course) in your Mantle of Flame, which now deals 3d6. Dice of damage have no reason not to stack, so anything that dares to touch you will have to suck up 4d6 fire damage. It'll be a few levels before ANYTHING will want to hit you in melee. (I discovered this trick at level 3 quite on accident while playing my old Binder/Incarnate. Beautiful, innit?)

Doesn't Expanded Soulmeld Capacity require meldshaper 1?

[Zaq]

Doesn't Expanded Soulmeld Capacity require meldshaper 1?

Blast, you're right. I knew that, too. You could make a weak argument that the semi-meldshaper level you get for your Shape Soulmeld feat counts, but I'd look askance at that, so I won't try to say it works that way.

Still, 3d6 at first level, all day every day, is far from bad. This way, you don't even need a flaw . . . just an azurin with one feat, which could be your bonus feat.

Of course, at this rate, you could just be an Incarnate, and use that feat on Expanded Soulmeld Capacity normally. Then, once you outgrow the Mantle of Flame, you're not stuck with it, but ESC never goes out of style.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Blast, you're right. I knew that, too. You could make a weak argument that the semi-meldshaper level you get for your Shape Soulmeld feat counts, but I'd look askance at that, so I won't try to say it works that way.

Still, 3d6 at first level, all day every day, is far from bad. This way, you don't even need a flaw . . . just an azurin with one feat, which could be your bonus feat.

Of course, nothing says you can't do that, AND go PsyWar into Empathic Feedback/Empathic Transfar, Hostile...

[Veyr]

Of course, nothing says you can't do that, AND go PsyWar into Empathic Feedback/Empathic Transfar, Hostile...
Well, the assumption of ECL 1 and then taking a Binder level kind of does preclude that.

I'm not sure that retributive damage is worth the class level and feat to a higher level character. Though it may be.

[dextercorvia]

I think we are past the Binder level. Incarnate into Psywarrior wouldn't be aweful. Psycarnum Infusion can bring a soulmeld to full in a moment of need.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, the assumption of ECL 1 and then taking a Binder level kind of does preclude that.

I'm not sure that retributive damage is worth the class level and feat to a higher level character. Though it may be.

The big thing about Empathic Feedback and Empathic Transfer, Hostile is that it is untyped damage, so you don't have to worry about energy resistance or any of that nonsense.

[dextercorvia]

The big thing about Empathic Feedback and Empathic Transfer, Hostile is that it is untyped damage, so you don't have to worry about energy resistance or any of that nonsense.

Are there any mantles that we could get those into, if we wanted to do it with an Ardent?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Conflict perhaps?

[jvluso]

One build I've thought about was a wizard with energy sub(electricity), born of the three thunders, persist spell, and some metamagic reducers for acid sheath, and some ways to raise the DC of his acid sheath. (fire shield could be substituted for acid sheath).

What you get is that every time you are attacked the attacker takes a small amount of electricity and sonic damage, and has to make a fort save vs. being stunned. It doesn't do as much damage as some other builds, but a chance of being stunned on every attack will make them think twice about attacking.

The problem with many of these methods is that reach and ranged weapons will completely ignore them.