Melee Feats

[GrinningDemon]

I'm building a fighter and I'm looking for the best feats possible. He is taking two flaws so I get a total of 5 to start with at level 1 and he's using a katana/ bastard sword

[Big Fau]

Word of advice: Use a Greatsword, not a Bastard Sword. The feat cost to use it one handed translates to an average of one point of damage more than the Longsword deals, whereas wielding it two-handed means you are doing an average of 5 damage per attack (compared to the Greatsword's 7).

Secondly, what type of Fighter are you gunning for? What are you going to be focusing on doing?

Third, and finally, what are the rules for character creation your DM is using? Are you using PB, or are you rolling for stats? What splatbooks are allowed?

[GrinningDemon]

I'm building a heavy damage fighter with high survivability because I'm in a 3 man group where I'm gonna have to carry the group for awhile. The bastard sword is gonna carry over to a katana when I can afford one its more for flavor and I'm mixing unarmed combat with sword combat so I need the one handed sword. All books are green lighted and there aren't any house rules just the standard rules. I don't really want to multi-class.

At 1st level I was thinking of taking
Power Attack / Exotic weapon pro (bastard sword) / Weapon focus (bastard sword) / Improved unarmed strike / Rapid assault

[NeoSeraphi]

Rapid Assault is terrible! It is a huge waste of your feats, and since they are the only class feature a fighter gets, you should choose carefully.

For now, I suggest Improved Initiative, actually. If you're going to be fighting in close range with your fist and your sword, use that extra feat to catch your opponents off their guard. Catching someone flat-footed in the first round and getting that bonus to hit will net you much more damage than a +1d6 if you hit in the first round.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I'm building a heavy damage fighter with high survivability because I'm in a 3 man group where I'm gonna have to carry the group for awhile. The bastard sword is gonna carry over to a katana when I can afford one its more for flavor and I'm mixing unarmed combat with sword combat so I need the one handed sword. All books are green lighted and there aren't any house rules just the standard rules. I don't really want to multi-class.

At 1st level I was thinking of taking
Power Attack / Exotic weapon pro (bastard sword) / Weapon focus (bastard sword) / Improved unarmed strike / Rapid assault

You have legs, don't you? Imagine a guy who fights with a sword two handed and makes kicks for the unarmed. I believe this style may even have historical precedent.

What books are available? You may prefer a Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) from the Tome of Battle to a Fighter, it has greater versatility and raw power, and makes a better damage dealer and survivor than a straight Fighter.

As I'm not really sure what you want to do with your fighter, specifically, you might try Person Man's Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7047955&posted=1) for ideas.

After you've decided what you want to do, mechanically, we'll be better equipped to help you.

[Partysan]

Kalaska is right. Look at ToB, specifically the Warblade, and wether you want to play a Fighter or not you should decide which melee role to fill.
Generally every melee fighter should have Power Attack. Out of core, Improved Initiative and Cleave (not so much the great version) can be considered generally useful. For a control type fighter Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes are important, if you want to use Dungeoncrasher then you should take Improved Bull Rush. Since you can use all books though, you should consider a specialization before assigning feats.
The Bastard sword generally isn't worth it mechanically, Weapon Focus and Rapid assault are likewise to be avoided.

EDIT: And it's a free action to take one hand from your sword. You can hold a Greatsword in one hand perfectly fine as long as you aren't attacking with it.

[dextercorvia]

Be Warforged, and take Dragontouched, Jaws of Death, Dragon Tail, and the fighter feat of your choice. At 3rd you take Multiattack, and at level 6, you can take Second Slam.

[Big Fau]

You have legs, don't you? Imagine a guy who fights with a sword two handed and makes kicks for the unarmed. I believe this style may even have historical precedent.

Example 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVLRTkcnNiE)


Power Attack / Exotic weapon pro (bastard sword) / Weapon focus (bastard sword) / Improved unarmed strike / Rapid assault

Ok, as I said above, the Bastard Sword is not worth it. And neither is Weapon Focus if you aren't planning on using it for prerequisites. As stated above, Rapid Assaut isn't that good.

From the looks of it, you are going to be mixing up unarmed combat with a Greatsword, so Two-Weapon Fighting might actually be useful for you. Cleave is also good at the low levels, and is a prerequisite for Combat Brute later on.

Snap Kick, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Shock Trooper are all vital feats if you follow this route. You may also want to pick up the Dungeoncrasher ACF, as it's one of the best ACFs the Fighter has.

Last, but not least, I heavily recommend against taking Fighter levels past 6th. If you absolutely have to, there are a handful of Fighter 20 builds, but that's a last case scenario. If Tome of Battle is allowed, Human Fighter 6/Warblade 14 gives you everything you need (9th level maneuvers, just barely, and enough feats to spare).


And you are still leaving out a vital point: What are your ability scores?

[GrinningDemon]

Thanks guys I'm pretty sure I'm gonna follow the fighter till level 6 then switch over would you recommend warblade or crusader? I've played crusader before never warblade. Would you recommend the prestige class Kensai for later?

Also side note would I need anything to do a misdirection like get people to pay attention to my sword drawing hand then right hooking them with a spiked gauntleted hand?

[Seffbasilisk]

That sounds like a feint.


Personally, I'd recommend Power Attack, and for flavor, check out Desert Wind Dodge.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That would be a feint, which in turn is a form of Bluff check; but IIRC without improved feint it is a standard action and thus not useful for the purpose you seem to want

[Big Fau]

Thanks guys I'm pretty sure I'm gonna follow the fighter till level 6 then switch over would you recommend warblade or crusader? I've played crusader before never warblade. Would you recommend the prestige class Kensai for later?

Warblade for wider breadth, Crusader if you want to be more durable. Either one is a good choice, but if you have a decent Int score you should go Warblade (since you get more out of your ability scores than you would out of Crusader). You can also triple-dip, at the cost of higher level maneuvers (but still be effective).

Kensai isn't that good for you. Stick with Warblade/Crusader.


That would be a feint, which in turn is a form of Bluff check; but IIRC without improved feint it is a standard action and thus not useful for the purpose you seem to want

Actually, Improved Feint drops it down to a Move action, which means he can follow up with a Strike. The problem arises with the skills involved: Bluff and Sense Motive. Fighters don't have Bluff (neither do Warblades or Crusaders), and the Sense Motive check they get also adds their BAB to the roll.

Some of the White Raven and Diamond Mind strikes can render them Flat-Footed, which fulfills the goal and can be reflavored to be a feint.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Warblade for wider breadth, Crusader if you want to be more durable. Either one is a good choice, but if you have a decent Int score you should go Warblade (since you get more out of your ability scores than you would out of Crusader). You can also triple-dip, at the cost of higher level maneuvers (but still be effective).

Kensai isn't that good for you. Stick with Warblade/Crusader.



Actually, Improved Feint drops it down to a Move action, which means he can follow up with a Strike. The problem arises with the skills involved: Bluff and Sense Motive. Fighters don't have Bluff (neither do Warblades or Crusaders), and the Sense Motive check they get also adds their BAB to the roll.

Some of the White Raven and Diamond Mind strikes can render them Flat-Footed, which fulfills the goal and can be reflavored to be a feint.


That's what I meant; that normally (without improved feint) it was a standard action to bluff

[GrinningDemon]

So since Improved Feint can be taken as a bonus fighter feat do I have to have the prerequisites I don't remember how that works been a while since I've played a fighter

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yes, unless a features says that you can take the feat without meeting the pre-requisites (such as monk for example) you must meet all of them.

[GrinningDemon]

Cool one last question for the think tank, if I take all the feats for weapon focusing and specialization and everything on the bastard sword when I upgrade to the katana (masterwork Bastard sword) I still gain all the bonuses correct?

[Big Fau]

Cool one last question for the think tank, if I take all the feats for weapon focusing and specialization and everything on the bastard sword when I upgrade to the katana (masterwork Bastard sword) I still gain all the bonuses correct?

Yes, they are the same weapon. Literally (a katana is a MWK Bastard Sword).


And if you insist on using that dreadful waste of a feat, look into the Exotic Weapon Master PrC in Complete Warrior. At least then the Bastard Sword becomes useful.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Kensai isn't that good for you. Stick with Warblade/Crusader.



Warblade or Crusader levels are a must these days, but don't limit your choices with fighter. There are a variety of nice variant Fighters.
What about the Kensai Fighter Variant? Replaces any need for Exotic Weapon Pro Bastard Sword (if you still want that) and Weapon Focus. At least look into it. You get +1 bonus on hit and damage at 1st, bumps up to +2 at 5th, you can trade a fighter bonus feat for Rain of Blows (-3 on attacks to get another attack at highest bonus) or Storm of Blows (-6 on attacks to get two attacks at highest bonus).
I don't personally find Rain or Strom useful, but the bonus to hit and damage is nice, and saves you the trouble of a Proficientcy feat if you're looking at using an exotic weapon. It's like a two-in-one feat trade, with extra damage on the side.

EDIT: It's from Dragon magazine 310 though, so you may want to clear Dragon Magazine content with your DM.

[OverdrivePrime]

Yes, they are the same weapon. Literally (a katana is a MWK Bastard Sword).


And if you insist on using that dreadful waste of a feat, look into the Exotic Weapon Master PrC in Complete Warrior. At least then the Bastard Sword becomes useful.

Wow. Big Fau, you've got some embarrassingly strong opinions on Bastard Swords. Sometimes a guy just wants to use a weapon because he likes that weapon. Yes, everyone and their mom understands that Bastard Swords aren't optimal. But the guy wants to use a bastard sword and has been pretty clear and polite about it.

Maybe find a different windmill to tilt against, eh? :smallconfused:

[Greenish]

And if you insist on using that dreadful waste of a feat, look into the Exotic Weapon Master PrC in Complete Warrior. At least then the Bastard Sword becomes useful.Eh, there's one good trick for bastard sword. Sure, if you'd qualify anyway, pick the level, but otherwise it might not be worth it.

And I'm on the opinion that longsword and bastard sword are pretty much the same thing.

[Eldariel]

Wow. Big Fau, you've got some embarrassingly strong opinions on Bastard Swords. Sometimes a guy just wants to use a weapon because he likes that weapon. Yes, everyone and their mom understands that Bastard Swords aren't optimal. But the guy wants to use a bastard sword and has been pretty clear and polite about it.

Maybe find a different windmill to tilt against, eh? :smallconfused:

I guess he's trying to say "use Longsword or Greatsword instead" 'cause those are the exact same weapon (D&D isn't really precise about weapon types) while being mechanically better. No reason Mwk. Longsword can't be a Katana just as well as Mwk. Bastard Sword; the differences overall are marginal.

Bastard Sword is, crunch-wise, good for two-handing with Exotic Weapon Master to get twice your strength to damage, though. But like, "liking Bastard Sword and thus wanting to use it over Longsword" is pretty strange since it's basically the same thing as a Longsword in D&D.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, if you're wanting to use a bastard sword, you might as well go with the Complete Warrior version of Samurai, since they get free EWP and some other flavorful feats along that line...

And hey, while you're at it, you can end up locking everything down by being that damn scary!

[OverdrivePrime]

I guess he's trying to say "use Longsword or Greatsword instead" 'cause those are the exact same weapon (D&D isn't really precise about weapon types) while being mechanically better. No reason Mwk. Longsword can't be a Katana just as well as Mwk. Bastard Sword; the differences overall are marginal.


Yeah, but... I'm pretty sure we all understand that. (Right? Anyone?) It just seems excessive to rail against the weapon choice with such undisguised disgust for three solid posts.

[Big Fau]

Wow. Big Fau, you've got some embarrassingly strong opinions on Bastard Swords. Sometimes a guy just wants to use a weapon because he likes that weapon. Yes, everyone and their mom understands that Bastard Swords aren't optimal. But the guy wants to use a bastard sword and has been pretty clear and polite about it.

Maybe find a different windmill to tilt against, eh? :smallconfused:


Yeah, but... I'm pretty sure we all understand that. (Right? Anyone?) It just seems excessive to rail against the weapon choice with such undisguised disgust for three solid posts.

Feats are a valuable commodity, even for a Fighter. The EWP feat only removes a -4 penalty, something that can be avoided by using either a slightly weaker but otherwise identical weapon (Longsword) or by using a slightly more damaging weapon (Greatsword).

Feats are supposed to make your character more efficient at his job, but EWP has so many alternatives (with only a handful of exotic weapons being good enough to warrant it) that it's about as useful as Skill Focus.

Fighters have enough problems, and I am offering a better solution to a problem. At the very least, the OP has Weapon Aptitude to fall back on if he comes across a better weapon, but it's better to never need to spend the feat in the first place.

[Hirax]

FWIW I fully agree about bastard swords. A feat is a high price to pay for flavor, and that's really all that using a bastard sword gets you.

[Greenish]

Feats are a valuable commodity, even for a Fighter. The EWP feat only removes a -4 penalty, something that can be avoided by using either a slightly weaker but otherwise identical weapon (Longsword) or by using a slightly more damaging weapon (Greatsword).Or just by using the bastard sword two-handed.


But, if one has access to Dragon Magazines, #310 has a fighter variant that gains proficiency in four exotic weapons (but not with martial weapons). Exotic weapons are, as a rule, a bit better than the martial equivalents (usually not enough to warrant a feat), and four different weapons is pretty much most you'd carry/use anyhow, so it's a pretty good deal.

[Big Fau]

Or just by using the bastard sword two-handed.

But the Greatsword is mechanically superior in that case. There really is no reason to use a Bastard Sword unless you go into Exotic Weapons Master.

[Greenish]

But the Greatsword is mechanically superior in that case.Yeah, but the difference isn't huge. 1.5 average damage is a lesser sacrifice for a fancy than a wasted feat.

Also, I'm not sure if two feats and a level are worth it for an extra 0.5x Str to damage, but that probably depends on the build and the str of the character.

[Big Fau]

Yeah, but the difference isn't huge. 1.5 average damage is a lesser sacrifice for a fancy than a wasted feat.

Also, I'm not sure if two feats and a level are worth it for an extra 0.5x Str to damage, but that probably depends on the build and the str of the character.

EWM has a few other tricks that help out, but that's the main draw if you are using a Bastard Sword. Besides, the OP's all ready stated he's taking Weapon Focus, might as well go for it then.


Off hand, Flurry of Strikes, Show Off (with Intimidate (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) optimization tricks), and Uncanny Blow would make all three levels useful.

[Greenish]

Off hand, Flurry of Strikes, Show Off (with Intimidate (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) optimization tricks), and Uncanny Blow would make all three levels useful.Can't Flurry with a bastard sword. Show Off is pretty neat if you can fit the feats and levels into an Intimidate build, yeah.

[Big Fau]

Can't Flurry with a bastard sword. Show Off is pretty neat if you can fit the feats and levels into an Intimidate build, yeah.

I missed the double weapon requirement.

[OverdrivePrime]

Feats are a valuable commodity, even for a Fighter. The EWP feat only removes a -4 penalty, something that can be avoided by using either a slightly weaker but otherwise identical weapon (Longsword) or by using a slightly more damaging weapon (Greatsword).

True enough. This is why I make bastard swords a martial weapon for humans and hobgoblins in my games. :smallsigh:

[Eldariel]

Off hand, Flurry of Strikes, Show Off (with Intimidate (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) optimization tricks), and Uncanny Blow would make all three levels useful.

Yeah, with Show Off EWM goes pretty nicely with a Zhentarim Fighter build (able to actually make use of Fighter-levels up to 9!). And you can get something like "I, Garland, Will Knock You All Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)" to make some good of the weapon, your high strength and your feats (heck, Trip Attack isn't totally useless, even though it's not all that good on a melee range weapon).

[Seffbasilisk]

If you're flurrying and married to the sword idea, there's a feat that turns a longsword into a flurry-able weapon.

Whirling Steel Strike IIRC.

[Metahuman1]

I would advise taking a 1 lvl dip into Barbarian, and taking Spirit Lion totem Barbarian form Complete Champion. If you want to trip, Also take Wolf totem from Unearthed Arcana.


From there, you have a choice. Rage form the PHB, or Whirling Frenzy form UA.

The Former gives -2 too ac +4 to str and con and +2 too will save for number of rounds equal too your con, and leaves you fatiged afterward. The latter gives you a -2 too hit with all attacks in a full attack, but a +4 too str, an extra attack at your highest bonus (kinda like flurrying with a katana.), +4 too AC, +2 to reflex.

If the former, take one hit of the extra rage feat. And take the tireless feat for both.


Now,


as for your weapon, ask your DM if you may trade one or two of the martial weapons proficiency's your never gonna use for EWP, that will save you the feat there. Use Warblade too get your WF progression, and take the dip into EWM for the extra str. (It turns the +2 too hit and damage form the Barbarian Dip into a +4, which is nice.)

If you take mostly Warblade, a one level dip into Crusader to get damage pool might not be a bad idea since it can increase your damage output and if you take it early your low level survivability. (Taking the first two levels as Crusader then Barbarian, or the other way round, will give you a significantly longer life span at low levels.)

Make sure you take Diamond mind maneuvers with Warblade if you do not go rage Barbarian. (You can't do both.)If you do rage, look at Iron heart and Stone Dragon.

Kensai isn't much help for this build I'd say.



If you can afford the feat Endurance and Stead Fast determination, I recommend them since they let you use Con in place of Wis for will saves, which reduces MAD.

Unarmed progression should have Improved and Superior Unarmed strike, Snap Kick, MAYBE Improved Grapple and Improved Natural attack if you can get the feats to spare for it. It's a pity you can't afford levels, at least that I can see, in Fist of the Forest since that would up Unarmed Damage. It's also a pity you can't afford what it would take to dip into Deepwarden for 2 levels to get Con to AC in place of Dex. (Further reduces MAD.)








Now, this is important. I do not expect you to try and Fit every single thing I just threw out there into one build. I really don't think it could be made to work. What I do want you to do is too take a good look at the suggestions, and pick and choose the one's that you think you'll get the most mileage out of with out loosing flavor.

[Big Fau]

I would advise taking a 1 lvl dip into Barbarian, and taking Spirit Lion totem Barbarian form Complete Champion. If you want to trip, Also take Wolf totem from Unearthed Arcana.

He's taking Warblade levels, so Tiger Claw trumps Barbarian most of the time.

[GrinningDemon]

Okay so after hearing all the info and thinking on everything I dropped the bastard sword for a long sword. I'm taking the first 12 levels of fighter then I'm changing over to Warblade for the rest of the game. My first 5 feats I'm starting with are: Weapon Focus (long sword) / Improved Unarmed Strike / Quick Draw / Power Attack / Rapid Assault

Then I'm planning on the feats in the following order:
Cleave, Endurance, Weapon Specialization (Long Sword), Stunning Fist, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Improved Critical, Power Critical, Great Weapon Specialization (Long Sword), Die Hard

Then I have 6 more before I hit level 21 and I need to think of 6 more and I'm having trouble thinking of them

[Greenish]

Then I have 6 more before I hit level 21 and I need to think of 6 more and I'm having trouble thinking of themThen why are you taking so many levels in fighter?

[Hirax]

I'm building a heavy damage fighter with high survivability because I'm in a 3 man group where I'm gonna have to carry the group for awhile.

Your build as presented (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11197239&postcount=37) does not do this. Which isn't right or wrong, it's your character, I'm just pointing out that you've made several choices that go against your stated goal, when superior options (with regard to your stated goal) have been given to you in this thread and the other one you made. This is confusing me, and no doubt others.

[Partysan]

Alright, look. Generally, a feat that provides a small numerical benefit is vastly inferior to a feat that provides you with new options.

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and their greater options are not worth feat slots. The only thing they're good for is being prerequisites for Weapon Supremacy, and if you start at level 5 that's too long a way off to go for it like that. Drop these four.

Rapid assault is very weak. 1d6 damage is very little and you only get ot for one round. Drop that too.

Endurance, Diehard, Quick Draw and Improved Critical are neither good nor bad. You can take them if you really like, but there would probably be better options. If you take Endurance you might consider Steadfast Determination, but when you have Warblade counters you don't need it that much. Still, it's good.

Great Cleave is only very situationally useful, that is, if you are surrounded by lots of weak enemies. That doesn't happen too often. I'd at least consider changing this one as well. Remember, it only works if you can kill the enemies with one hit.

Power Critical... No idea. Seriously I never thought about it. I never had feats to spare for things like that.

Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike and Cleave are all useful feats. Keep those. Now on to fill the blanks.
You have several options there. You said you want high damage and high survivability. You should decide for one of these paths to get there:

1. Charging. This one involves using a weapon two-handed and taking feats that give you a high multiplier on Power Attack when charging, combined with the Shock Trooper tactical feat that lets you keep your attack bonus in exchange for AC penalties.
Then you charge, Power Attack for a lot and get about 4-8 times your Power Attack as a damage bonus. Your AC will be very low, but usually the enemies will not be able to hit you back.
Usually this involves at least one level of Barbarian.

2. Dungeoncrashing. This one is based on a Fighter ACF that lets you do a lot of damage by pushing enemies into walls or other obstacles using the Improved Bull Rush feat. Since this is a prerequisite for Shock Trooper you can combine this with charging.
Being a Goliath and taking the Knockback feat (both from Races of Stone) is very useful here.

3. Retribution. Based of the feats Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike and of course Combat Reflexes this style lets you make a lot of attacks of opportunity against enemies that attack you. The popular Jack B. Quick build combines this with the High Sword Low Axe style to work even better, that however would require you to use an axe together with your Katana (or get into Warblade earlier).

4. Stormguard Warrior. Based on the so-named tactical feat from ToB this method works similar to the Retribution method in that you let the enemies attack you, use the same feats so they generate attacks of opportunity, but you don't use the attacks but sacrifice them to get bonuses in the next round. Then in the next round you unleash havoc. Basically you analyze the fighting style of the opponent and then kill them. For this you should concentrate on Warblade instead of Fighter, taking Warblade first and then squeezing in two levels of Fighter to delay your second stance and get bonus feats.

I did not include Control builds since you need reach for those and you prefer the Katana. Pick and choose. For more options consult Person Man's guide, someone linked it earlier in the thread. But those sound like they might work for you.

Further feat recommendations: since you seem to like using unarmed strikes, you might want to take the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from ToB.

[Killer Angel]

Alright, look. Generally, a feat that provides a small numerical benefit is vastly inferior to a feat that provides you with new options.


Indeed. In the last game session of my group, I was saved twice by Close quarter fighting (complete warrior).

[Archwizard]

My first reaction was "Power Critical, really?" I think that's a pretty horrible use of a feat slot.

At least feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are useful on just about every round of combat. Power Critical is only useful when you a) roll a threat and b) have a hard time confirming.

[GrinningDemon]

Your build as presented (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11197239&postcount=37) does not do this. Which isn't right or wrong, it's your character, I'm just pointing out that you've made several choices that go against your stated goal, when superior options (with regard to your stated goal) have been given to you in this thread and the other one you made. This is confusing me, and no doubt others.

I have been taking everyone's advise and the character is evolving as these threads continue as well as with my own choices come to light. He has been re-written several times and if you have noticed I have taken several of the suggestions. Such as dropped the bastard sword, took out rapid assault for improved initiative added warblade and so forth.