Okay, clearly I'm doing SOMETHING wrong...

[Drakevarg]

I've been spending the last few sessions of my weekly DnD group running a nice, old-fashioned "Adventure!" type campaign. Did this mostly out of nostalgia reasons. Pretty good so far, only three PC deaths, two from spiked pits and one from a boss fight. The problem here is a simple one: treasure.

I've been doing my best to make sure that I hold by RAW treasure rules. Only problem is, the PCs are still level 3 and one of them has already amassed something to the tune of 12000gp in valuables. Admittedly he's a greedy bastard saving up for lichdom and has taken the majority of the party's loot, but even so, something is clearly amiss.

So far their treasure piles have been from the table listings of the following creatures:

1 Aranea
1 Displacer Beast
40 Kobolds (As CR 1/4 monsters, I left a Level 1 Treasure pile for every 4 Kobolds in the cave I'd mapped out. This might actually be accounting for all the traps in the cave as well, I don't remember.)

Plus a flaming greatsword, shock rapier, and glamered chain shirt from named NPCs.

I'm actually surprised they haven't leveled yet, given how much they've gone through. The fact that this is a party of 7 (technically 8, but one hasn't shown up to a single session and I've banned him until he brings a peace offering of pizza) might have something to do with it. It might also explain why everything has been so easy for them so far, since the CR ratings are means for a 4 player party.

The fact that they have way to much treasure still stands, though. Any theories as to what I might be doing wrong? Or do I simply have low expectations as to how quickly the PCs are supposed to be able to retire in luxury? As a side question, how much higher should the monster CRs be to provide an adequate challenge for such a large party?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Your problem is you gave them two weapons each worth 8320-8350 gp, and armor worth 3,950 gp.

[Drakevarg]

Your problem is you gave them two weapons each worth 8320-8350 gp, and armor worth 3,950 gp.

...what? Flaming Greatsword is a +1 weapon, worth 2350. The armor is worth 2950.

[Ivellius]

That's not how the enchantment works. It has to have a +1 bonus on it first, which means that it'll cost 8,350 (so actually a +1 flaming greatsword). Same with any other enchantment on any other weapon/armor.

Oh, and I guess I should point out that the WBL assumes that a decent chunk of wealth is being spent on potions, scrolls, and other such consumables (don't remember the exact percentage). Also NPCs have quite a bit more than they ought if you're using the DMG samples.

To challenge your group, basically double the enemies of an equal-CR rating. Man, that'd take forever to run combat, though.

[Hiro Protagonest]

...what? Flaming Greatsword is a +1 weapon, worth 2350. The armor is worth 2950.

Oh, then you made a mistake. You can't make a flaming weapon without a raw enhancement bonus, so it would be a +1 flaming at minimum, which is a +2 weapon. Same deal with the other weapon and armor.

Edit: ninja'd!

[Drakevarg]

That's not how the enchantment works. It has to have a +1 bonus on it first, which means that it'll cost 8,350 (so actually a +1 flaming greatsword). Same with any other enchantment on any other weapon/armor.

I've never used that rule, because before checking it fifteen seconds ago I never noticed the single sentence hidden in a massive block of text that mentions that rule. So at least for the purposes of this campaign, it doesn't apply.

Either way, it doesn't carry into my complaints, which is that one of the characters is walking around with nearly enough treasure (not gear, just jewels and coins) to buy a keep, at level 3.

[WinWin]

Dealing with uneven treasure distribution is one of the problems with D&D, moreso from 3rd edition where wealth is factored into expected power. Even in earlier editions the power differential between a 'survior' character who had amassed loot from fallen comrades and new characters was substantial.

I would suggest discussing this with the player. If they are uncooperative, then 'creatively' redistribute treasure in dungeons. Once the group goes up a few levels, the imbalance may have corrected itself a little (12k is still a big deal until around 6th level or so).

Failing that, bring in the Rust Monsters. A disjoining mage can make a brief appearence. Thieves or fey can steal the characters gear. Family of the items former owners can turn up and demand the return of 'their property.' It's ham fisted and brute force, but may solve your problems.

[Rejakor]

Why is it a problem that he can buy a castle? Unless he buys enough gear that everyone else feels small in the pants, or is one-shotting your encounters, it's not actually a problem.

Much bigger problem is if you are sending half the CR worth of monsters you should be against the party. Don't use bigger CR monsters, use more monsters of their CR. Don't forget, your MK I eyeball is way better than the CR system for determining party appropriateness.

Also, if you dropped 1 CR 1 treasure for every 4 kobolds, you better have been handing out 1 CR 1 xp drop for every 4 kobolds, as if you separate the treasure and xp systems, it gets wonky.

[opticalshadow]

making the adventure more difficult will hepl tame down the party having to much coin, how often does your party buy supplies? potions, scrolls, wands, misc items? when they die do they re roll? if so, encourage ressing

IMO though them having those weapons at level 3 is a problem in its own. because unless your handing out really really nice loot, they shouldnt be able to afford or find anything nicer for a huge chunk of levels.

[Drakevarg]

Why is it a problem that he can buy a castle? Unless he buys enough gear that everyone else feels small in the pants, or is one-shotting your encounters, it's not actually a problem.

The potentiality to be vastly over-geared is one of my concerns, yes. Plus the fact that he probably shouldn't even be able to carry that many coins on his person.


Much bigger problem is if you are sending half the CR worth of monsters you should be against the party. Don't use bigger CR monsters, use more monsters of their CR. Don't forget, your MK I eyeball is way better than the CR system for determining party appropriateness.

So just keep with CR-appropriate encounters but always double the number of monsters? I'll try it next session, see what happens. (Not that I've made up my mind as to what's going to happen next session, but I've got a week to figure it out.)


Also, if you dropped 1 CR 1 treasure for every 4 kobolds, you better have been handing out 1 CR 1 xp drop for every 4 kobolds, as if you separate the treasure and xp systems, it gets wonky.

That's what I've been doing, yes. The DMG didn't have any other rules regarding monsters with CRs less than 1, so that's what I went with.


making the adventure more difficult will hepl tame down the party having to much coin, how often does your party buy supplies? potions, scrolls, wands, misc items? when they die do they re roll? if so, encourage ressing

They haven't been able to get much gear on account of only having been to small towns so far, which simply don't have anything valued at over 200gp.


IMO though them having those weapons at level 3 is a problem in its own. because unless your handing out really really nice loot, they shouldnt be able to afford or find anything nicer for a huge chunk of levels.

They were weapons carried by named NPCs, and were the result of me accidentally applying PC WBL to NPCs. I figure it'll balance itself out eventually, especially if I work a Rust Monster encounter in.

Alternatively, I could simply decide next session that all their magic weapons will be turned into normal +1 weapons.

[Worira]

Why are the other party members letting one character hoard most of the treasure, and not demanding a fair share? Each should be ending up with around 2700 GP worth of treasure, so if there are 7 characters and one character has the majority of the treasure, he would be expected to have between 9450 and 18,900 gp.

[hisnamehere]

Firstly, I never liked the "needs to have a +1 enchantment bonus before additional enchantments" rule. Let thine swords be flaming without need of extra bonus!

Secondly, a question: What happens to the wealth of the PCs that died? Does the lich-fetish PC collect it all? Every time a new PC enters the game (with level-appropriate gear) they bring in more wealth. Remember that "Dibs!" equals treasure. If that happens, just skimp on the next treasure piles until everything evens out.
Also, just to make sure, you're not giving each member of the party a full share of a creature's treasure block are you? i.e. an aranea has a set amount of treasure divided among the number of PCs (and NPCs). You're probably doing this correctly, but we are here to figure things out, so no flames, please. :smallredface:

Thirdly, the standard CR increase for monsters applies to PCs, as well. That is, doubling the number of creatures in a group increases that group's CR by 2 on the table. e.g. a standard 3HD monster is CR 3. If he brings a buddy along to the fight, their collective CR is 5. If you're fighting their family of 4, they are a CR 7.
Same with PCs. 4 3rd-level PCs should have CR 3 encounters (most often). 8 3rd-level PCs (twice as many as 4) should have CR 5 encounters. Be careful with this, tho, as a single CR 5 monster probably has abilities/attacks that are powerful enough to down a 3rd level PC in one round, whereas twice the number of 3rd-level creatures has more actions, but still only 3rd-level strengths.

As an aside - If "everything as been easy for them so far", why has their been 3 PC deaths? That sounds like the difficulty level of your encounters is enough for the party.

Anyway, I hope something here helps. Cheers,

[Rejakor]

A level 3 PC is CR 3. The CR system is set up so the PCs have an advantage over monsters. A 4 on 1 advantage. If there's 8 of them, then you need to add 2 CR 3 encounters together, which makes a CR 4 or 5, I forget, the table says which. But some CR 5 monsters may be too hardcore and oneshot a level 3 character. So, instead, just send 2 CR 3's at them. Or 4 CR 2's. Or whatever.


At this level, it's all a crapshoot with gear anyway. Just specifically put some items into the dungeon that are better used by other characters, like daggers for rogues or swords for melee etc. But even if he has 12,000 gp, it's still meh, as what's he going to buy? Some scrolls? Pff.


Well, just enforce the carrying limits. That'll probably lead to him tricking or bribing the barbarian, and that's always good interparty fun anyway.

Again, like I said, it's not a major deal. I've played in a game where one guy managed to get all/most of the loot.. it just ended with him buying stuff for the members of the group so they'd be competent when he needed a meatshield or a stealth scout... as a dynamic it worked well.

If he's more powerful than the rest, or is obnoxious about it.. that's a separate problem.

[Drakevarg]

Why are the other party members letting one character hoard most of the treasure, and not demanding a fair share? Each should be ending up with around 2700 GP worth of treasure, so if there are 7 characters and one character has the majority of the treasure, he would be expected to have between 9450 and 18,900 gp.

Because he's been scouting ahead for loot and refusing to inform the party it even exists. He's been reducing suspicion by more-or-less evenly distributing the treasure when the others can see him find it.



Secondly, a question: What happens to the wealth of the PCs that died? Does the lich-fetish PC collect it all? Every time a new PC enters the game (with level-appropriate gear) they bring in more wealth. Remember that "Dibs!" equals treasure. If that happens, just skimp on the next treasure piles until everything evens out.

Since the "lich-fetish" PC is the party healer, he's usually the first one at the corpse. Since 2/3 of the PC deaths have been at the hands of spiked pits, he's had plenty of privacy to help himself to most of the loot.


Also, just to make sure, you're not giving each member of the party a full share of a creature's treasure block are you? i.e. an aranea has a set amount of treasure divided among the number of PCs (and NPCs). You're probably doing this correctly, but we are here to figure things out, so no flames, please. :smallredface:

I just leave the treasure in a pile and let the PCs deal with it.


As an aside - If "everything as been easy for them so far", why has their been 3 PC deaths? That sounds like the difficulty level of your encounters is enough for the party.

Two of the deaths were at the hands of spiked pits, both of which they spent several rounds fooling around in close proximity to. Given enough time, they eventually fumbled and enjoyed pointy death.

The most recent death happened this session, during a 2v2 duel with the leader of a kobold tribe (a 5th level Barbarian) and his "friend" (a 4th level Bard that had charmed him). They only one because the lich-fetish PC pulled a crit on the kobold with a scythe while they were both near death. (the other PC was rather spectacularly lopped in half by the kobold, who was wielding the aforementioned flaming greatsword with Monkey Grip and had a wand of enlarge person.) This also gave the lich-fetish PC free dibs on the loot of both bosses and the dead PC's gear, since the rest of the party stayed in town to prepare for a siege by the kobold army.

[opticalshadow]

Why are the other party members letting one character hoard most of the treasure, and not demanding a fair share? Each should be ending up with around 2700 GP worth of treasure, so if there are 7 characters and one character has the majority of the treasure, he would be expected to have between 9450 and 18,900 gp.

i have to wonder as well, 12k in gold isnt easy to hide, and my party has offed the rouge with sticky fingers in the past.


as far as the cr, you can also try to up the challenge without upping the cr. some creatures are not dealier per se, but harder to kill. a single darkmantle in the midst of your party can cause some havoc, as can a well positioned magic user, or creatures with particualry annoying traits. oozes and disablers.
they wont be much more of a threat as far as killing your pcs, but they will require diffrent resources, and can take longer, requiring them to stock diffrent items. this gives them a larger upkeep and that can help top off their exceccive wealth.

[Drakevarg]

i have to wonder as well, 12k in gold isnt easy to hide, and my party has offed the rouge with sticky fingers in the past.

A sizable chunk of the treasure is in the form of small, easily concealable jewelry, most prominently a gold-and-ruby ring valued at 7000gp. (Rolled for fair-and-square, which might be an issue.)

[Ivellius]

Firstly, I never liked the "needs to have a +1 enchantment bonus before additional enchantments" rule. Let thine swords be flaming without need of extra bonus!

It's pretty necessary, though...otherwise you can gain an additional +1d6 elemental damage instead of an additional +1 damage on your masterwork weapon (because the bonus to attack rolls doesn't stack...). It's never a contest, really.* Making it a +2 vs. elemental damage is a bit of a decision, however, because you're weighing a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls vs. 1d6 elemental damage. All the damage in the world does little good if you can't hit the target.


Well, just enforce the carrying limits. That'll probably lead to him tricking or bribing the barbarian, and that's always good interparty fun anyway.

I second this. I keep meaning to do it with my players but keep forgetting. It'd set things straight pretty quickly.


A sizable chunk of the treasure is in the form of small, easily concealable jewelry, most prominently a gold-and-ruby ring valued at 7000gp. (Rolled for fair-and-square, which might be an issue.)

Ah, well, it's only worth that much if they can find a buyer for it. So I can see it being an issue, but not for a while. Did the player appraise it?

* Okay, maybe if you could only do one type of energy and knew every monster you fought was going to resist it.

[Bhaakon]

Because he's been scouting ahead for loot and refusing to inform the party it even exists. He's been reducing suspicion by more-or-less evenly distributing the treasure when the others can see him find it.


Then let another party member find out. Just roll a secret spot check the next time he returns from a profitable scouting trip, and have the PCs who pass notice the conspicuous sack of loot. Even if the player talks his way out of it, the rest of the party will be more wary in the future.

[Drakevarg]

Ah, well, it's only worth that much if they can find a buyer for it. So I can see it being an issue, but not for a while. Did the player appraise it?

He didn't need to, since I had him roll the loot tables. (Which I might change in the future since I'm starting to suspect he's bull****ting me on what he rolls. Too many percentile rolls in the 90s.)

And you do have a point there; he's only managed to sell one item, a Masterwork Light Pick, at less than one-third its value because that's all the local blacksmith could afford.

[Hiro Protagonest]

A sizable chunk of the treasure is in the form of small, easily concealable jewelry, most prominently a gold-and-ruby ring valued at 7000gp. (Rolled for fair-and-square, which might be an issue.)


He didn't need to, since I had him roll the loot tables. (Which I might change in the future since I'm starting to suspect he's bull****ting me on what he rolls. Too many percentile rolls in the 90s.)

And you do have a point there; he's only managed to sell one item, a Masterwork Light Pick, at less than one-third its value because that's all the local blacksmith could afford.

He's definitely fudging rolls if he gets a single gem worth that much at third level.

[Drakevarg]

He's definitely fudging rolls if he gets a single gem worth that much at third level.

Problem is that art objects don't have a level cap for value. There was an 0.04% chance of him getting that grade of treasure, which while improbable isn't impossible. But again, the idea of him getting rolls above 90 a good 50% of the time leaves me suspicious.

...actually, scratch that. I'm gonna have a talk with him. EVERY percentile roll he made this week was above 90. He also got a scroll with the spells spider climb, summon monster II, and whispering wind on it, and all of those require rolls of 90+. I didn't tell him what he was rolling for until after the fact, so I'm officially positive he's bull****ting me.

[Worira]

Well, you shouldn't be letting one player have the majority of the loot and the value dead characters' items should be deducted from the treasure you give or given to new, otherwise itemless, characters. How exactly you're going to justify these things I'm not sure.

Oh, and the random treasure tables are terrible. And yes, it's possible to roll a 7000 GP ring from a first level encounter. EDIT: And yeah, especially if you're cheating.

[ryuteki]

He didn't need to, since I had him roll the loot tables.

I fail to see how that gives his CHARACTER any idea of what the ring is worth. Enforce actual role-playing using actual character knowledge, solves huge numbers of problems there.

[Rejakor]

I rolled 16 20's, a 1(on a conc check it turned out I didn't need), and then another 8 20's, once. With people taking the die off me and testing it to see if it was rigged (it wasn't). This was after my swashbuckler got trapped in the heart of the enemy stronghold and the DM tried his damnedest to kill him. Twasn't to be, though. He soared out of that place on hunting bat after having rescued 'the girl' after the rest of the party folded like wet cardboard in the first encounter.

Of course then his hunting bat got shot down, but he did make it to civilization after that, raised a new adventuring party, and eventually retired with 'the girl' to raise a family. Didn't have any further runs of luck like that, but it was definitely a epic moment.

Also, weird runs of luck do happen.

[opticalshadow]

I fail to see how that gives his CHARACTER any idea of what the ring is worth. Enforce actual role-playing using actual character knowledge, solves huge numbers of problems there.

i always roll the random loot behind closed doors, and unless one of them can appraise it, the best they would get is a description of the ring, and a dwarf might be the only one that has a stones chance at reconizing a 7k gem when he sees one.

[Gorgondantess]

Okay, yeah, you shouldn't be letting your players roll treasure tables, period. That's just asking for stuff like this. It's also a free Identify for everything.

[Seffbasilisk]

Players rolling on treasure tables? Bad idea.

Have the named characters items be Arcane Marked, and their families send rogues to steal it back, assassins to kill them, or call in the law.

Being hamfisted works in the short-term, being creative works in the long term.

Lich-lover? 12K worth of gold coins weighs 240lbs, and that's if it's all gold coins. Copper, silver, etc... Also, ask where he's putting it. The tenth bulging sack under his robes is going to draw notice.

Also, I've an odd feeling that he clanks as he sits down.

[Jornophelanthas]

...actually, scratch that. I'm gonna have a talk with him. EVERY percentile roll he made this week was above 90. He also got a scroll with the spells spider climb, summon monster II, and whispering wind on it, and all of those require rolls of 90+. I didn't tell him what he was rolling for until after the fact, so I'm officially positive he's bull****ting me.

Either decide to make these rolls by yourself, or insist that he rolls the dice where you can see them.
Also, make sure you can see his attack rolls. That x4 critical hit you described in the 2v2 duel becomes suspect if he doesn't have any percentile dice rolls beneath 90%.

[NecroRick]

You have four problems:

(1) the monsters leaving massive amount of loot lying around unguarded
(2) the players letting the party get split up
(3) loot tables ??? <- what BS is this?
(4) random treasure

(1) monsters should carry their treasure that can be carried - or lock it away somewhere guarded and trapped
(2) I've got two words for you: monster ambush
(3) Don't let the player BS you and push you around, even if he has memorised the DMG better than you
(4) Have the monsters convert their treasure into _creature comforts_. Things like a gold plated bathtub. Tapestries. Bearskin rugs. A library of rare books. Hand out more magic swords - you know, the ones that glow in the dark... or talk.

Have the player start to jingle when he walks. The ring is a problem, have it turn out to be a fake... fools gold and cheap glass. Have the shapechanged Silver Dragon come and thump the **** out of the PC for stealing his Mom's wedding ring...

[Kylarra]

Actually there's not a huge amount amiss, numerically, the cheating of rolls and party is a big problem imo. 3rd level WBL is ~3k, and if one player is hogging the majority of treasure that would go to 6 other players in addition to their own share, well... it's easy to see how they'd get 4x wbl if they were taking half the take of 6 players + their own share.

[Drakevarg]

Either decide to make these rolls by yourself, or insist that he rolls the dice where you can see them.
Also, make sure you can see his attack rolls. That x4 critical hit you described in the 2v2 duel becomes suspect if he doesn't have any percentile dice rolls beneath 90%.

I'll be making the treasure rolls ahead of time in the future.

As for the timely crit, that roll is not suspect, as I actually did see those dice land.

[PirateLizard]

I've never used that rule, because before checking it fifteen seconds ago I never noticed the single sentence hidden in a massive block of text that mentions that rule. So at least for the purposes of this campaign, it doesn't apply.

Either way, it doesn't carry into my complaints, which is that one of the characters is walking around with nearly enough treasure (not gear, just jewels and coins) to buy a keep, at level 3.

Are your players aware of this rule? It's pretty standard rules that a weapon has to be +1 first. This is because adding a d6 of energy damage to a weapon is more potent than adding +1 to a weapon fyi. If you make a weapon flaming, then want it to be +1, it costs you 6000g to add the +1 instead of the flaming. I think you can see how it's a little backwards. No worries though, just thought I'd explain.

As for the dice rolls...I've played with cheaters before. Without saying anything definitively, it sounds like that might be what you ran into. Some people just feel they need to make up for something in life, and bring it to the DnD table. Especially with more players they tend to get a bit more flamboyant since they can sit farther away from you, and there's more going on which means less people paying attention. Pretty annoying. :smallannoyed:

[King Atticus]

(2) I've got two words for you: monster ambush


Absolutely, Have snipers cover some of the areas that are being pre-scouted. An archer in the trees covering the spiked pits or armed gaurds in the treasure rooms. Make him think twice about being the one to scout ahead...at some point the gold isn't worth your life. Especially if he's pre-lich, no phylactery and a party with not enough loot to raise you can be a pretty big deterrent.