Houserules?

[Deimess]

Every group and DM probably has at least a few. I'm wondering what are some house rules you guys use to fix small problems, make things more fun, or just generally enhance gameplay by simplifying things?

Some my group uses frequently is 2 rolls for healing, if you don't like the first result, you can ask the DM to roll for you, and must take the new result (entire roll, not per d8). Another we started using is to add 1d10 to a skill check on a natural 20, and subtract 1d10 on a natural 1.I know another common one is making dodge outright give a +1 bonus to AC, not just against one creature.

So I ask you, playgrounders, what are some rules or fixes you use that aren't found in errata or rulebooks?

[Seerow]

Monks are proficient with unarmed strikes.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Drown Healing is a no-go.
Dodge gives +1/half their Character Level dodge bonus to AC, minimum 1.
Spring Attack + Bounding Assault + Rapid Blitz are one feat, with the later feats coming online once you have adequate BAB.
The Two Weapon Fighting tree is collapsed into one feat, with the later feats coming online once you have adequate BAB+Stats.
[PF]Sorcerers may advance their bloodline abilities at every level they gain Sorcerer casting, be it from levels in Sorcerer or PrCs which add caster levels.

[Alefiend]

I like to do away with the double penalty on cross-class skills. You're still limited by maximum CC skill ranks, but each costs a single skill point. More diversity is a good thing.

[Godskook]

Let's see:

1.Metamagic reducers can't be used to cast a spell unless you can cast that metamagic'd spell without reducers. Wanna cast maximized fireball? Gotta have lvl 6 spell access. This cuts down on abuses by a lot, and also adjusts when they come online(persistent lesser vigor is far less broken at level 13 than it is at level 4, for example)

2.Players track their point-buy, and are allowed to increase the value by spending xp. The price is current point-buy squared(so a 30 point-buy ranger wanting to go to 32 point-buy would have to spend 1861 xp(30*30 + 31*31).

3.Feats may be bought at the rate of 1kxp for the first, 2kxp for the 2nd, etc etc.

4.HD may be maxed at the cost of 250xp for your 2nd level HD, 500xp for your 3rd level HD, etc etc.

(#2-#4 make for more organic and fun characters earlier in the game, but also pose issues to the DM about how challenging a particular party is, as well as how much xp a particular threat is worth)

[The Big Dice]

I've got like, 3 pages of houserules in use at the moment. Some are more strictly speaking optional rules from UA. And a couple are lifted from Pathfinder, particularly the death and dying stuff. I swiped Second Winds from SWSE as well. They are less in your face than healing surges, but they do add to survivability a little. Dodge is a flat AC bonus, rather than picking a single Dodge opponent each round. Fighters get any 6 skills plus Craft instead of the garbage they start with.

But the one that gets the best feedback from my players is, using cards as Action Points. That works just like the Action Points in UA, but with a few minor alterations. Everyone gets three cards per session. Every session they get three with no holding unused cards from last time. And they have effects as follows:

• Numbered Cards: If used to improve a roll, don’t re-roll the die. Instead, add 10 to the face value of the card and treat that as your roll.
• Jack: If used to gain the use of a feat, the emulated feat lasts two rounds rather than one.
• Queen: If used for a second wind, you may take another second wind immediately, even if you could not normally do this.
• King: If used boost defense, a king gives the benefits of fighting defensively for a round while still allowing the character to attack.
• Ace: If used to recover a spell, the character can recover two spells at the same time.
• Joker: Can duplicate the effect of any other card, or you can discard it and draw two new cards.
• Any card can be discarded for a reroll before the result of a roll of the D20 is declared. Roll the D20, if the result is below 11, add 10 to it. If it is 11 or more, the roll remains as the dice shows.

The idea was lifted from Mutants and Masterminds, and my players really do respond positively to it. They get exceited about what cards they have, and they feel like they can take control of things a little more than just rolling the dice allows. I've been tempted to make the switch to full blown Hero Points, but the dynamics of D&D are a little different from those of M&M.

[Yora]

Shields have twice the bonus to AC, provide a +2 bonus to Reflex saves against blast effects, are added to touch AC, but do not apply to flat footed AC.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I've got quite a few and don't have my list handy, so I'll just give the ones I'm fondest of, all involving skills.

First, there's no such thing as class skills. Any class can buy any skill and their maximum rank.
Secondly, every class (except wizard, and maybe other int-based casters) get more skill points per level. 4 per level is the new minimum.
Lastly, because multiclassing can screw over people who use skills, you either get the skill points per level for the class you're taking, or the average of the points per level for all your classes, whichever is higher.

[Deimess]

Monks are proficient with unarmed strikes.

I reread the monk section and was shocked that it never mentions that they do. I think the writers just assume that it was obvious that they have it, because I know that I just assumed they were proficient.



Dodge gives +/Character Level dodge bonus to AC, minimum 1.


......so a level 20 would have a +20 dodge bonus to AC?

[Seharvepernfan]

allow flaws, traits
no multiclassing penalties
robes of armor, bracers of protection
chitin armor (only plate, as mithril -2 ac, half cost of normal armor)
breastplate +6, +2 (heavy armors +1 AC, +100gp cost, banded mail +150gp instead)
hand crossbow (1d3+1)
light crossbow (2d4)
heavy crossbow (2d4+2)
mighty composite bows maximum strengths (short +2, long +4, great +6)
falchions and heavy flails can be used one handed with exotic
finessable weapons made of mithril grant +1 bonus to attacks
d12’s for initiative
hit ac for half damage
Massive Damage (DC 15 +1 per 4 points over 50)
DIPLOMACY “Persuasion”: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910
sundered or otherwise damaged items have a “broken” status and can be repaired
long jump = check result minus five
small sized characters gain a +2 bonus to hide, listen, move silently, search, and spot instead of a +4 bonus to hide
at each new level, you gain half hp +1 +con mod (3 for wiz, 7 for barb, etc.) roll if you wanna
Spell DC rolls
fractional Bab and saves, save bonuses don’t stack (only get good save bonus once)
Tumble Dcs are 10+bab to move past, 20+bab to move through
alignment is determined by what you do, not what your motivation was
DC for defensive casting is 10 + spell level x3
each +1 enhancement bonus on a magic weapon defeats 5 points of DR/magic (so +3 = DR 15/magic)
if you roll 2 20s in a row, roll again, if this third attack roll hits, the blow is treated as a coup de grace (variant auto kill rule)
martial adepts must be using one of a disciplines favored weapons to use a strike from that discipline.
Devoted spirit now contains the heavy mace and morningstar.
Stone Dragon gains greatclub and maul, and loses the heavy mace.
desert sun maneuvers that involve fire require the ability to cast a certain level fire spell as a prerequisite in addition to any normal prerequisites, and must have a wisdom score equal to the maneuvers’ level (17 for 7th, etc.), the same applies to shadow hand maneuvers and illusion (shadow) spells

Damage Steps and Wounds
The more a character is injured the harder it gets for him to fight on. There are three different damage steps which brings penalties to all throws, checks, and attack rolls based upon the relation of total hitpoints to suffered damage.

75-100% Hp no penalty (hurt)
50-75% HP -1, 4/5 speed, 10% spell failure (injured)
25-50% HP -2, ¾ speed, 20% spell failure (wounded)
0-25% HP -3, 2/3 speed, 30% spell failure (mauled)

Example: A knight with 40 total hitpoints takes a heavy hit by an ogre’s club, dealing him 11 points of net damage. His Hipoints sink under the ¾ margin, and he suffers a –1 penalty to his rolls.

Whenever a creature suffers more than 50% of its total hit points, through a single hit, it must make a Fortitude save against DC = 10 + 1 per 4 points of damage. If the Save fails, the creature is nauseated from the pain until healing magic or first aid can be applied. If the save succeeds, the victim of the attack is sickened from the pain for 1d4 rounds.

FEAT CHANGES:
Dodge is flat +1 dodge bonus to AC.
Toughness is +2hp +1/level.
Diehard lowers your wounded thresholds to 50%, 25%, and 10%, it also lowers your death threshold to negative hit points = your con score.
Two weapon fighting/Rapid shot allow a second attack as part of a standard action, as long as your bab is at least +6, the second attack with twf is with your other hands weapon
You can cleave an enemy after sundering his weapon or shield.
Improved Overrun can be used against more than one enemy, though each occupied square counts as two.
Quickened spells are cast as swift actions, not just free actions.
Dual skill feats (like alertness) increase the bonus by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter
Skill Focus feat bonus increases by +1 at 4th and ever 4 levels thereafter
Save bonus feats (like Iron Will) increase the bonus by +1 at 6th level and every six levels thereafter

Improved evasion lets you roll twice for your reflex save and use the higher result (instead of what it was).

The alignment cleric domains allow you to turn outsiders with the opposite alignment instead of providing a caster level increase.

Druids lose spontaneous summoning, and must choose between an animal companion and wild shape.
Natural spell does not exist (must use eschew, silent, and/or still spell). To wild shape into an animal, the druid must have had contact with said animal or pass a knowledge nature check vs. DC 10 + animals HD (in addition to the standard rules).

Rangers gain half progression sudden strike (1d6 at first, 2d6 at fifth, and so on) and once their animal companion progression is simply level -3, not one half. He also gains favored terrain as a pathfinder ranger.

Sorcerers gains eschew materials at first, and a power based feat every 5 levels. They gain Intimidate as a class skill.

Wraithstrike only affects your next attack.
Celerity/Greater Celerity: Unavailable.
Enlarge/Reduce Person: Increase to 4th level. Attribute changes are equal to those of a creature increasing or reducing in size category. Enlarge/Reduce Person, Mass increased to 7th level.
Fabricate: Allows you to convert 1 cubic foot per level for all materials.
Freedom of Movement: Grants a +5 circumstance bonus to saves against paralysis/slow/grapple/escape artist checks/etc., and allows you to move at full speed through environmental effects such as solid fog/web/etc.
Gate: Travel/transportation/utility only, can call a unique creature, but they get a will save.
Identify requires a focus (worth 100gp), not a material component.
Knock: As normal, except with locks: substitutes Open Lock for Spellcraft. (not sure about this one yet)
Ban locate creature/object?
Mage's Disjunction: Automatically counters an Antimagic Field. All spells and spell-like abilities currently active within the burst are dispelled. Negates the effects of magic items for 3d4 rounds instead of destroying them.
Magic Mouth: Trigger range of Close.
Mage's Magnificent Mansion: Doesn't allow you to bar creatures from entering, should they discover the portal.
Orb Spells: Changed to the Evocation school.
Polymorph Any Object: Does not exist.
Protection from X: Grants a +4 bonus on saves against possession/charm/compulsion etc. instead of immunity. Summoned creatures must make a Will save with a +10 DC to attack.
Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion/Energy Drain/etc.: Allows a Fortitude save to negate.
Rope Trick: Increase to 5th-level.
See invisibility: Must pass caster level check DC 10 + spells level x3.
Statue: Returning to normal state uses a standard action.
Shapechange: Takes a full round and provokes attacks of opportunities, does not grant spell-like abilities (any form up to ½ caster level in HD)
Sleep, Greater: 4th level spell added, as sleep, but with no limit to HD and affecting a single creature. (Hey, Beholders get it, why not the rest of us?)
Solid Fog: Halves movement speed, rather than reducing it to 5 ft.
Summon Monster: Duration changed to 2 rounds + 1 round per level.
(Teleport: A mage's destination must have a teleportation circle set up.)
(Time Stop: Only allows you to cast spells within your personal bubble.)
True Seeing: To pass through illusions that normally require a save, you must pass a caster level check DC 10 + spells level x3.
Wall of Force/Forcecage: Subect to Dispel Magic.
Foresight: Duration of 1 min./level.
Wail of the Banshee: Centered on you.
Wind Wall: Range of Close and 10 ft./two levels long and 5 ft./two levels high. Same deal for Wall of Force/etc. Magical projectiles have a 50% miss chance.
Wish, limited wish resurrect the dead, do not allow very powerful effects, and raising an ability score requires a 5000gp diamond.
Miracle does not allow the very powerful requests.
Blasphemy/Holy Word: Allows a Will save.
Dispel Evil/etc.: Allows a Will save for Outsiders to resist being banished at a -10 penalty.
Elemental Swarm: Allows you to summon 2d4 Large elementals, 1d4 Huge elementals, or 1 greater elemental and lasts 1 min./level.
Entropic Shield: Arrows, rays, and other ranged attacks have a 20% miss chance instead of automatically missing.
Protection from X: Grants a +4 bonus on saves against possession/charm/compulsion etc. instead of immunity. Summoned creatures must make a Will save with a +10 DC
Remove Blindness/Deafness: Reduced to 2nd level.
Summon Monster/Nature's Ally: Duration changed to 2 rounds + 1 round per level.



NEW FEATS

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/critical-feats

Elemental Magic Mastery [Metamagic]
Your mastery of a particular element has yielded impressive results.
Prerequisites:
Energy Substitution in the specified element, ability to cast 4th level spells and 10 ranks in Spellcraft.
Benefit:
Grants bonus spell damage of that element equal to ½ caster level (only once per enemy per spell).


Mobile Spellcasting [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 13+, Dodge, Mobility, ability to cast 2nd level spells
Benefit
When casting a spell, you can move both before and after the spellcasting, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed and you succeed on a Concentration check with a difficulty class equal to (15 + spell level). As normal, spellcasting in this manner provokes attacks of opportunity if you pass through a threatened square.

Camouflage
Pre: 15 ranks of hide and survival

Crippling Strike
Pre: +5d6 sneak attack

Evasion
Pre: base reflex save +3

Improved Evasion
Pre: base reflex save +6

Hide in Plain Sight
Pre: 18 ranks of hide and survival

Uncanny Dodge
Pre: Bab +1

Improved Uncanny Dodge
Pre: Uncanny Dodge, Bab +6

Opportunist
Pre: Bab +7

Swift Tracker
Pre: 9 ranks of Survival, Track

Slippery Mind
Pre: base will save +3

Trackless Step
Pre: 1 rank of Survival, Woodland Step

Woodland Stride
Pre: 1 rank of Survival

Trapfinding
Pre: None

[darksolitaire]

No metamagic abuse; you can't stack arcane thesis/ incantatrix/ dweomerkeeper/ easy metamagic/ practical metamagic/ adroit casting to reduce any metamagic feat with +1 or greater adjustment to +0 or below, or +0 adjustment to negative. You still could reduce persist spell to +1 adjustment, if you wish to divert enough feats and abilities.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

......so a level 20 would have a +20 dodge bonus to AC?

That should have read per half their character level, not per character level. I shall edit it to reflect this.

[Deimess]

I REALLY like your "hurt" system Seharv. Are there any exceptions to this, say, undead or oozes? Also the ramped up concentration checks, as casters who take a rank every level and who have combat casting rarely fail a check.

[ShriekingDrake]

In one of my games:

We've consolidated some of the skills:
Perception = Spot, Listen, Search, Sense Motive
Stealth = Hide, Move Silently
(game rules that affect an element of one of these, say a boost to spot, work only when "spotting" would be relevant)

We also give feats at odd levels.

We banned: Most of the "time" related spells, such as Celerity and Time Stop.

There are others, I'll add them when I get to my notebooks.

[averagejoe]

But the one that gets the best feedback from my players is, using cards as Action Points. *snip*

This is neat. I may have to try it.

I vary houserules widely depending on the campaign.

One I always use is a psionic multiclassing enabler along the lines of Tome of Battle. Basically your manifester level is equal to your levels in your psionic class plus 1/2 your levels in other classes, and the level of powers you can take is determined by manifester level instead of class level.

[Greenish]

(persistent lesser vigor is far less broken at level 13 than it is at level 4, for example)How is persistent lesser vigor broken at level 4? I've played a game from 3rd level where it was allowed, and we only used it once as a last ditch method.


robes of armor, bracers of protectionWhat's the houserule on those?


chitin armor (only plate, as mithril -2 ac, half cost of normal armor)So that's like a breastplate except worse?

hand crossbow (1d3+1)
light crossbow (2d4)
heavy crossbow (2d4+2)What's the point of that change?

mighty composite bows maximum strengths (short +2, long +4, great +6)Or that? Archers are already hurting for damage.


martial adepts must be using one of a disciplines favored weapons to use a strike from that discipline.
desert sun maneuvers that involve fire require the ability to cast a certain level fire spell as a prerequisite in addition to any normal prerequisites, and must have a wisdom score equal to the maneuvers’ level (17 for 7th, etc.), the same applies to shadow hand maneuvers and illusion (shadow) spellsWhat, why?


Sorcerers gains eschew materials at first, and a power based feat every 5 levels. They gain Intimidate as a class skill.What are "power based" feats?

[Godskook]

How is persistent lesser vigor broken at level 4? I've played a game from 3rd level where it was allowed, and we only used it once as a last ditch method.

1.True-infinite healing at levels where healing is normally very hard to come by? Healing belts and relevant wands are 750gp, and your party can maybe afford to have 1/person. Maybe. Getting the ability to completely negate the normal economy of the game ahead of when intended is, imho, slightly broken(in a "if the DM's ok with it, we're good" sort of way).

2.Do you agree if a lower-level were used? If so, insert that level, and that's what I essentially meant. I pulled the level 4 out of a hat, so to speak.

[FMArthur]

Two-Weapon Fighting is one feat, not three.
Pounce is a feat.
Allies do not provide "soft cover" for enemies against ranged attacks.
Physical ranged attacks are all treated as having the Precise Shot feat.

That's the extent of the ones that matter.

[Greenish]

1.True-infinite healing at levels where healing is normally very hard to come by?Yes? :smallconfused:

[Ernir]

I don't have one general set of houserules I always use. I make up new houserules for each campaign, trying to make each set match the type of campaign I am trying to run that time.

[Archwizard]

The only houserule I can think of off the top of my head is the Natural Spell feat is disallowed.

In general I tend to dislike feats designed to get around class restrictions like that.

[Honest Tiefling]

If you can make an awesome character with good fluff, you can waive alignment restrictions. If someone came up to me with a really well developed Paladin of Freedom for Ehlonna, complete with a very good idea of what her Paladins of Freedom should be doing, fine. If someone came up with a lawful barbarian complete with a very strict honor code. Okay. If someone came up with a really good druid of Talos who shared his alignment, that's fine by me.

If the character plans on taking prestige classes or feats normally not allowed by their old alignments, then I might have issues.

[Alefiend]

In one of my games:

We've consolidated some of the skills:
Perception = Spot, Listen, Search, Sense Motive
Stealth = Hide, Move Silently
(game rules that affect an element of one of these, say a boost to spot, work only when "spotting" would be relevant)

We also give feats at odd levels.


Sounds a lot like Pathfinder to me.

[Seharvepernfan]

I REALLY like your "hurt" system Seharv. Are there any exceptions to this, say, undead or oozes?

Thank you. Somewhat, it represents pain and structural damage, so things like most undead and oozes would have the penalties to attack, speed, and spell failure, but not to will saves or spot checks or knowledge skills.


Also the ramped up concentration checks, as casters who take a rank every level and who have combat casting rarely fail a check.

I agree, though I'm afraid I made it too hard. Im not a fan of every pc having max ranks in a minimal number of skill just to stay competent, but then Im not a fan of max ranks pcs never failing a check. I like to think I struck a balance.


What's the houserule on those?

Nothing much. Its robes of armor instead of bracers of armor, and bracers of protection instead of rings of protection. It mostly cosmetic. I think anything that provides an armor bonus should actually cover you, and it gives a reason for monks and arcanists to actually wear robes. I also dont like rings granting ac. It just makes more sense to me.


So that's like a breastplate except worse?

In my games, breastplate and the heavier armors all have one higher ac and a bit higher cost. Chitin armor is mithril breastplate, half plate, or full plate, -2 AC. The chitin breastplate is almost identical to chain shirts. Elves in my games wear this instead of metal, and its a good alternative for druids. Its based off morrowinds chitin armor.


What's the point of that change?

Take a greatsword and a greataxe. A greatsword is a reliable weapon, dealing 7 damage on most hits and getting more often crits. A greataxe on the other hand has a better chance of doing less or more damage, and its crits are rarer but more powerful.

I see it being the same way with bows and crossbows. Now the crossbow is the reliable weapon and the bow the wild one, now in damage in addition to crits. I just feel like a crossbow shouldnt do 1 point of damage. Also, at low levels, where you typically only get 1 shot every round or two, that minimum damage is important and gives crossbows use that they otherwise wouldnt have. I just like this better.


Or that? Archers are already hurting for damage.

Again, it just makes more sense and I like it better. Archers do fine in my games, besides.


What, why?

For the first part, because, again, it makes sense to me and I like it better. Now you dont have daggers doing stone dragon moves. I also dont like a character picking the best moves from several disciplines and using them all in the same battle. They still can, if they switch weapons, which I'm fine with. It also gives more reason to have weapons of different types, and to keep the weapons that you find instead of selling them. I see the favored weapons matching the disciplines style.

For the second part, because I have a problem with sourceless abilities, especially ones you can use whenever you like, as much as you like. I just want the more magical maneuvers to make sense.


What are "power based" feats?

Spell focus, spell penetration, piercing evocation, etc. Anything that makes a spell harder to resist that isnt metamagic.

[Scow2]

For the first part, because, again, it makes sense to me and I like it better. Now you dont have daggers doing stone dragon moves. I also dont like a character picking the best moves from several disciplines and using them all in the same battle. They still can, if they switch weapons, which I'm fine with. It also gives more reason to have weapons of different types, and to keep the weapons that you find instead of selling them. I see the favored weapons matching the disciplines style.

For the second part, because I have a problem with sourceless abilities, especially ones you can use whenever you like, as much as you like. I just want the more magical maneuvers to make sense.

I have an issue with these changes as well... Maybe it makes sense for the Swordsage (Who you may want to put a reign on, though they're actually pretty weak without such versatility), but the other two Martial Adept classes don't have enough maneuvers to justify such a rule... Also, the Heavy Mace (Favored weapon of Pelor and St. Cuthbert, the two biggest sources of crusaders in the default setting) isn't a weapon in any discipline, so Crudsaders either have to break from some of the unity of symbols with their deity, or not be allowed to use any maneuvers. There are worse things, too.

And for your second concern... Do you also ban monks from being able to use their Flurry of Blows ability or enhanced movement speed unless they know the spell Haste, or their Ki Strike ability even if they don't know the spell Magic Weapon? Does a sorcerer have to know a fire spell before he can learn a fire spell? Do ninjas need to know an invisibilty spell to use their Ghost Step power? The source for the supernatural abilities in a swordsage's schools is the exact same source as the one used by monks to achieve their supernatural powers.

[Seharvepernfan]

I have an issue with these changes as well... Maybe it makes sense for the Swordsage (Who you may want to put a reign on, though they're actually pretty weak without such versatility), but the other two Martial Adept classes don't have enough maneuvers to justify such a rule... Also, the Heavy Mace (Favored weapon of Pelor and St. Cuthbert, the two biggest sources of crusaders in the default setting) isn't a weapon in any discipline, so Crudsaders either have to break from some of the unity of symbols with their deity, or not be allowed to use any maneuvers. There are worse things, too.

And for your second concern... Do you also ban monks from being able to use their Flurry of Blows ability or enhanced movement speed unless they know the spell Haste, or their Ki Strike ability even if they don't know the spell Magic Weapon? Does a sorcerer have to know a fire spell before he can learn a fire spell? Do ninjas need to know an invisibilty spell to use their Ghost Step power? The source for the supernatural abilities in a swordsage's schools is the exact same source as the one used by monks to achieve their supernatural powers.

The first thing you said is true. I need to houserule the weapons lists. I noticed morningstars weren't on any list.

As for the second, no, because monks are just fast. Ninjas...I never used ninjas, but at least their is a limit to how many times they can use their abilities. Either way, both of those classes are hard to justify anymore with the swordsage around. I don't have to worry about ki making sense.

[Greenish]

Nothing much. Its robes of armor instead of bracers of armor, and bracers of protection instead of rings of protection.Ah, so you swapped those out. I should point out that you can have Robes of Armour even by default rules (as per MIC). Though…


It just makes more sense to me.…It's magic. :smallconfused:


Take a greatsword and a greataxe. A greatsword is a reliable weapon, dealing 7 damage on most hits and getting more often crits. A greataxe on the other hand has a better chance of doing less or more damage, and its crits are rarer but more powerful.

I see it being the same way with bows and crossbows.But it already is. :smallconfused:


Again, it just makes more sense and I like it better. Archers do fine in my games, besides.I accept "I like it better" as an explanation, but "it makes more sense" requires an explanation instead of being one.


For the first part, because, again, it makes sense to me and I like it better. Now you dont have daggers doing stone dragon moves.Yeah. You don't have most anyone doing stone dragon moves, since that would require using a different weapon from their main one (longswords for crusaders, bastard swords for warblades, unarmed for swordsages]… okay, so swordsages might pick some up. Not sure how punching is better than stabbing for the style, but eh.


I also dont like a character picking the best moves from several disciplines and using them all in the same battle.Why not? Swordsages are basically made for it, and low level crusaders don't have other options, either.


It also gives more reason to have weapons of different typesOh yeah, the golfbag problem wasn't bad enough already…


For the second part, because I have a problem with sourceless abilitiesThey're not sourceless, any more than a caster's spells are sourceless.

[PollyOliver]

My RL group uses a lot. My favorites are tossing multiclassing penalties, beefing up a few races (elf and half elf, I'm looking at you) to be a little more inviting for something other than prc entry, and allowing skills you put points in while they're class skills to stay class skills in all respects afterward. The minimum skills per level for any class without casting is also bumped up to 4, because why not? We use a couple different options for monk and fighter fixes, and yes monks are proficient with their unarmed strike, (one being a ToB maneuver progression and another being fixes from these forums; most noncasting classes have an option to lose features in exchange for maneuvers), use a mix of the Giant's rules for bluff/diplomacy, and studiously avoid certain spells unless we're about to TPK otherwise (though that last one isn't a rule so much as an unspoken agreement).

We also tend to fold feat trees together. Dodge and mobility are one feat, twf is one feat that upgrades as the pre-reqs are met, spring attack, bounding assault, and that other one are one feat (that require dodge/mobility and upgrade as the pre-reqs are met), weapon focus upgrades itself, etc. More things are fighter feats, and warblade uses the new fighter list, also. We also play that if you gain a feat from a class but already have that feat, you can swap it out for any feat you meet the pre-reqs for.

[MeeposFire]

I reread the monk section and was shocked that it never mentions that they do. I think the writers just assume that it was obvious that they have it, because I know that I just assumed they were proficient.



......so a level 20 would have a +20 dodge bonus to AC?

Well they are proficient with them if you take a really long indepth look into the rules which is just plain silly. Humanoids are proficient with their natural weapons by default. Unarmed Strikes are natural weapons (with certain qualities that are treated as manufactured weapons such as iteratives seemingly chosen at random) so a humanoid would be proficient with them. Of course you should not have to look that far and make such conclusions to do it but 3.5 is what it is.

Also infinite minor healing is not game breaking in any way. It just makes you change your expectations. You just have to make sure the healing is not significant in combat (or effectively not work in combat like my binder healer that can heal you to full after every fight but would be nearly useless in a fight since healing one HP per standard action is bad in combat). On the plus side it does allow you to use difficult fights more often as you know the players start with full health.

[Greenish]

Humanoids are proficient with their natural weapons by default.No, they aren't. Monstrous Humanoids, and most other types are, but humanoids aren't.

Humanoids are "[p]roficient with all simple weapons, or by character class".

[Edit]: My bad, monstrous humanoids aren't proficient with natural weapons either.

[Scow2]

The first thing you said is true. I need to houserule the weapons lists. I noticed morningstars weren't on any list.

As for the second, no, because monks are just fast. Ninjas...I never used ninjas, but at least their is a limit to how many times they can use their abilities. Either way, both of those classes are hard to justify anymore with the swordsage around. I don't have to worry about ki making sense.
I guess I can go with that... but according to your rules, does a Wizard first need to be a Sorcerer to be able to cast spells? Because that's exactly what you're saying a Swordsage does.

The difference between a swordsage and a wizard is the swordsage takes less time to prepare her spells (~6 seconds per maneuver as opposed to an hour for all of them), and doesn't have to wait 8 hours before re-preparing spells.

Re-read the intro to the Swordsage (Emphasis mine):


A master of martial maneuvers, the Swordsage is a physical adept - a blade wizard who's knowledge of the Sublime Way lets him unlock potent abilities, many of which are overtly supernatural or magical in nature. Depending on which disciplines he chooses to study, a swordsage may be capable of walking through walls, leaping dozens of feet into the air, shattering boulders with a single touch, or even mastering the elements of fire and shadow. Whatever his specific training, a swordsage blurrs the line between martial prowess and magical skill
And if you'd like to argue about how they don't have a cap on the number of times/day they can cast their spells... well, neither does the Warlock.

Besides, Swordsages don't use Vancian magic... they use Weeaboo Fitan Majiks!

[MeeposFire]

Perhaps I missed the or after simple weapons in the description oh so long ago which would have nicely fixed that up.

Oddly most people don't complain about the fact that most characters making natural attacks are not actually proficient with them since they are humanoids and most class descriptions do not say you are proficient with granted natural weapons outside of the druid. For instance

1) The skarn is not actually said to be proficient with his spines so they re in the same boat as the monk.

2) The humanoid totemist is not proficient with any of his natural attacks. I guess we should complain about that too.

3) Dragon disciple is not proficient with his claws and bite until level 10 when he acquires the dragon type.

4) Wild shape rangers are not proficient with their natural weapons either.

I think they must have assumed humanoids are proficient with their own natural weapons. Personally I don't think proficiency should apply to natural weapons (and most of the time in the game it would seem it doesn't apply outside of a few areas like unarmed attacks and the mention in the creature types and the druid class).

[Seharvepernfan]

If an item provides an armor bonus, it should cover you like armor. Robes cover far more than bracers, and bracers cover far more than rings (even though that bit isnt an armor bonus).

Just because its magic doesnt mean it shouldnt have to make some sense.

Im aware of being able to enchant robes like armor, that is an option in my games too. But its slightly different in that its more expensive to get an armor bonus this way and you can gain other armor enhancements with the second type of robes that you can't with robes of armor.

Now crossbows are more so. In real life crossbows are very deadly. As I see it, they're a .45 and a bow is a 9mm. The 45 is slower and penetrates less, but its does way more collateral, I guess youd say and has more stopping power. I see bolts as being shorter and thicker than arrows. Does this make sense?

For might composites, a smaller bow is made of less material, so therefore you couldnt get the same resistance out of it as you could with a larger bow. I wouldn't know, but its hard for me to believe that in real life you could make a perfectly functioning shortbow that requires you to be an angry hulk hogan to pull it sufficiently.

About stone dragon, really? It seems like a very "heavy trauma over a large area" type of style. At least unarmed strikes are bludgeoning.

They have much less of a source than a casters'. Casters require components, and either spell slots and/or preparation. They also require minimum casting stats. It just bothers me that the book doesnt even bother to explain where these abilities come from. A swordsage just can teleport, summon shadows, and blast people with fire, and he can do it 100 times a day. I at least want to tie that to spellcasting in some way. I would prefer if those abilites had per day limits, or had casting times and were interuptable.

I didnt mention it, but that iron heart maneuver where you throw your sword as a line attack and it returns to you is just banned in my games. I just don't like these kinds of ToB maneuvers. Its rule 0, these are my houserules, and the OP asked us for our houserules. If you don't like it, then agree to disagree. If you were a player in my games I'd work with you to come to a point where we're both happy.

EDIT: I dont use warlocks either. Is it assumed that everybody uses everything from every book, or that every book needs to be accounted for for balance? You didnt say that, but you get my point, right?

And yes, I know it says swordsages are magical, but theres no explanation given for how. He just flips his blade a certain way and BAM. Fireballs.
You can argue that a wizard does the same thing, but for a wizard its much harder and more involved. I guess the end of my argument is that I just dont like the taste of their magical abilities, so I adapt them to my game or dont use them at all. I'm allowed to do that as a DM.

[MeeposFire]

If I recall robes and bracers cost no more to enchant than armor.

[Seharvepernfan]

If I recall robes and bracers cost no more to enchant than armor.

I looked, and you're right. But they only go up to +5 whereas bracers go to +8.

[Greenish]

I think they must have assumed humanoids are proficient with their own natural weapons.If by "they" you mean WotC designers, it seems so. If you mean most people playing, well, I guess they just use common sense. (Nobody plays monks/totemists/druids as not proficient with their natural weapons, at least that I know of.)


If an item provides an armor bonus, it should cover you like armor. Robes cover far more than bracers, and bracers cover far more than rings (even though that bit isnt an armor bonus).

Just because its magic doesnt mean it shouldnt have to make some sense.My point was that since it's magic, it doesn't have to work like mundane armour does. The magic creates a magical force field, regardless of the source, or so I imagine it. Heck, Mage Armour doesn't even have a physical component, yet it still works.

Besides, if non-magical bracers can give you 1 AC, I don't see why magical ones couldn't give you 1-5.


Im aware of being able to enchant robes like armor, that is an option in my games too. But its slightly different in that its more expensive to get an armor bonus this way and you can gain other armor enhancements with the second type of robes that you can't with robes of armor.Huh? No, the MIC option works exactly like Bracers of Armour.


Now crossbows are more so.By the simple expedience of unnecessarily writing their stats in the way that ignore the basic design principles behind weapon mechanics in 3.5.


In real life crossbows are very deadly. As I see it, they're a .45 and a bow is a 9mm. The 45 is slower and penetrates less, but its does way more collateral, I guess youd say and has more stopping power. I see bolts as being shorter and thicker than arrows. Does this make sense?Yes. It doesn't warrant the changes, though.


For might composites, a smaller bow is made of less material, so therefore you couldnt get the same resistance out of it as you could with a larger bow. I wouldn't know, but its hard for me to believe that in real life you could make a perfectly functioning shortbow that requires you to be an angry hulk hogan to pull it sufficiently.I'm pretty sure you could, if you wanted to, even though real life people aren't remotely as strong as many D&D races. The amount of material seems mostly irrelevant, when compared to the properties of said material.


It seems like a very "heavy trauma over a large area" type of style.Right, like an 8 strength halfling's tiny lil' fist.


They have much less of a source than a casters'. Casters require components, and either spell slots and/or preparation.Not all casters/spells require components, and maneuvers also require slots both as known and as readied (and in the case of crusaders, as granted).


It just bothers me that the book doesnt even bother to explain where these abilities come from.From training, just like a wizard's or a psion's.


I at least want to tie that to spellcasting in some way. I would prefer if those abilites had per day limits, or had casting times and were interuptable. Okay, never mind, I'll let it drop, since obviously you're thinking of an entirely different thing than I am.


If you don't like it, then agree to disagree.I'm not trying to tell you you're doing something wrong, I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind the ones of your houserules I don't understand.

I understood (and often agreed with) your other houserules, the ones I didn't ask about.


[Edit]:
Is it assumed that everybody uses everything from every book, or that every book needs to be accounted for for balance?If you're going to make an argument about balance, warlocks and swordsages are way less powerful than the core casters.


I looked, and you're right. But they only go up to +5 whereas bracers go to +8.No, they go up to +8. MIC, page 234.

[Seharvepernfan]

If you're going to make an argument about balance, warlocks and swordsages are way less powerful than the core casters.

I don't agree with that as much as the rest of this board, but yeah, I won't argue it.


No, they go up to +8. MIC, page 234.

Ah, I don't have that book. That would make sense, though.

[Remmirath]

Our House Rules (for a 50th+ level game using almost exclusively core rulebooks, between three players controlling many characters each)


1: No massive damage checks. By the time everybody is doing at least 50 HP per hit, checking for it every time just becomes an annoyance. Truly massive damage will take care of itself.

2: True Resurrection is a banned spell (as far as the characters know, it does not exist) although its effects can be replicated by deities or certain magical artifacts.

3: Dead zones. -10 to -50 is classified as 'dead but can be raised', -50 to -100 is classified as 'can't be raised but can be resurrected', and -100 to -200 is classified as 'needs a Miracle'. Below that and you're hosed (unless the rest of the party can find a deity willing to bring you back or a magical artifact powerful enough to do so.)

4: Time Stop is a banned spell. No one uses it and no one ever will.

5: Power Attack can be used with all self-accelerated weapons (not firearms or crossbows) including bows and light melee weapons. You must be using a properly configured compound bow (matching your strength bonus) to power attack with a bow, but it counts as a two-handed weapon. Light weapons count as other one-handed weapons. Unarmed or natural attacks count as two-handed weapons. The limit of Power Attack is equal to your Base Attack + Epic Bonus + Epic Prowess, as opposed to only your base attack.

6: Epic Spell caps. You can't buff your ability scores or saving throws by more than +15, you can't buff your armour class by more than +20, you can't have damage reduction of more than 50, and the same goes for any party buffs. The reflect seed can't be used to reflect more than 12 of spells and attacks.

7: Tomes/Manuals, Wishes and Miracles stack with each other for stat enhancements, to a maximum total bonus of +15 (which occasional exceptions for truly godlike loot).

8: The keen/impact weapon ability stacks with the Improved Critical feat.

9: Quicken spell and multi-spell override the Sorcerer metamagic rules.

10: Attacks of Opportunity are always ignored.

11: Not only is a natural 1 always a failure, but a catastrophic one. If you are attacking, you deal the damage to yourself; if you are doing anything else, it fails completely.

12: A natural 20 always succeeds. Even if you're trying to hit something with an armour class of 100 and you have an attack bonus of +56, a natural twenty will hit. Same goes for skills checks, et cetera.

13: No confirming criticals. If you roll a critical, you got it. Similarly, a Vorpal weapon requires no confirmation roll to have its effect. As an extension of this, any abilities, feats, or what have you that would give a bonus to confirming a critical instead increase the multiplier of the critical by one.

14: All damage modifiers on a weapon are multiplied on a critical hit (sneak attack, flaming, etc.)

15: You can attack a target anywhere within your weapons reach, not just on the edge of it.

16: A rogue or assassin can sneak attack any time they are hidden (but not otherwise). Unless you are specifically immune to sneak attack (from an item, for instance), you will take the damage (immunity to critical hits does not protect you, nor does invisibility etc.).

17: Grappling is greatly simplified. Two (or more) characters roll opposed grapple checks. The winner is grappling the loser. The only way out is to succeed on the next opposed check (made once per round). To escape a grapple, a character can choose to use their Escape Artist skill instead of their grapple bonus.

18: Dragons (and others shape-shifting creatures) retain all of their ordinary ability scores while polymorphed. There is no healing when polymorphing.

19: Invisible creatures receive no bonus attacks and can be sneak attacked normally. Being invisible counts for being able to sneak attack (unless your target is aware of you).

20: Anyone can take the entire Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation line of feats, though non-fighters need to be twice the level to do so. Also, Weapon Specialization feats (normal, greater, epic) all apply to ranged weapons regardless of the range involved.

21: ‘Surging’ your stats with the use of a magical item or a spell (applying a temporary enhancement bonus on top of your ordinary stat enhancing item) works, but is restricted to +10 for items or +15 for spells.

22: Some bonuses of the same type do stack. Bracers of Armor stack with armor, Amulets of Natural Armor stack with your own natural armor.

23: Haste gives 1 extra attack per round. Blinding Speed gives 1. Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization give 1. They all stack with each other, as does anything else that gives +1 attack/round.

24: Weapon Finesse may be taken with any weapon and does not suffer any check penalties.

25: Class Skills are ignored.

26: Deities or occasional special circumstances can grant ‘Untyped’ bonuses to stats or other attributes. These stack with everything and have no technical limits.

27: Spell resistance can be overcome with a natural 20 or failed with a natural 1.

28: Armor Check Penalties are (more or less) universally ignored, likewise armor restrictions to speed. These people are epic. They can move in their armour.

29: Falling damage is not capped at 20d6; instead it uses the rule from the Wilderness Survival Guide.

30: Having your neck broken is an ultimate attack and cannot be stopped (unless you have suitable neck protection). It pierces spell reflection shields and requires only an opposed strength check (the winning result of which must be greater then 20) to accomplish once the victim is successfully grappled.

31: Death Attack does not require a 3 round study. It may be done once per round with no study.

32: Aging penalties and bonuses in both directions are largely ignored.

33: Disable Device checks usually only take 1 round, and non-rogues can find all traps if they are good enough.

34: Enhance spell stacks with any feats it doesn’t specifically say it doesn’t stack with, and the amount of enhancement can be controlled (if you have it 3 times, you don’t need to always use all 3).

35: Aside from the ability to regrow limbs, Regeneration is no different from Fast Healing.

36: The Epic Healing Seed, instead of fully healing all hit points, heals a base of 150. For every +6 added to the Spellcraft DC, the amount is increased by 150.

37: Delivering the Coup de Grace is instant and success is assured. There is no attack of opportunity, and the victim always dies, even if they are immune to critical hits.

38: Cover grants no bonuses to armor class and is instead treated like concealment, granting a miss chance.

39: Improved Whirlind Attack changes the number of attacks made with the whirlwind attack to two and does not affect your reach. If you have Improved Whirlwind Attack, you may choose to make an ordinary whirlwind attack as an attack action instead of a full round action.

40: You can take a five foot step before moving, but not after.

41: Bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate are used to modify the roleplaying - you must still roleplay what your character is doing, and if there is no way that it would work it won't (unless, possibly, you have rolled a natural twenty).

42: Epic spells must be created essentially on campaign time, with the resources that the character has - therefore secondary casters and most other ways of decreasing the DC of spells are not on the table for all pracitcal purposes (damaging oneself definitely is, and XP penalties also are though most wouldn't go for them).

43: Instead of a set amount of gold, characters spawn with an item package with these general guidelines - 40th levels get +5 gear, 45th get +8, 50th get +10, 55th get +12, 60th+ get +15 with occasional +16 items for 65th+. Special abilities are largely up to player and DM discretion and are influenced by character backstory.

44: No multi-classing penalties; they are too much of an annoyance to deal with.



These aren't all things that I wanted, precisely - they're a compromise between the three of us who take turns DMing. 10 and 32, particularly, I wouldn't've put in there - but they don't bother me all that much, either.

There are probably more I'm forgetting. My normal game is quite heavily houseruled, in ways that might well not work for anyone else but work well for us (which, I suppose, is sort of the point of houserules :smalltongue:). We tend to play a lot differently than many groups I've seen, so some things that would be an issue in other groups simply don't come up.

[tyckspoon]

No, they go up to +8. MIC, page 234.

Different things, really- you can take non-magical robes and enchant them as armor. In that case, they function as a suit of armor with a base AC of 0, so they can host up to +10 total enhancement, at most +5 of that can be enhancement to AC, etc. You can also and independently add an Armor Bonus to them, which operates as per Bracers of Armor and caps out at +8. As long as you remember which kind you're using, the only weird bit is what happens when you try to combine them and have to sort out whether or not the Armor Enhancement stacks to the (Bracers) of Armor property. (for the record, I'm pretty sure it doesn't, because you have '+5 Robes' and then you have 'Robes of Armor +8'. They're still different items, functionally, they just happen to be in one physical location.)

[MeeposFire]

Different things, really- you can take non-magical robes and enchant them as armor. In that case, they function as a suit of armor with a base AC of 0, so they can host up to +10 total enhancement, at most +5 of that can be enhancement to AC, etc. You can also and independently add an Armor Bonus to them, which operates as per Bracers of Armor and caps out at +8. As long as you remember which kind you're using, the only weird bit is what happens when you try to combine them and have to sort out whether or not the Armor Enhancement stacks to the (Bracers) of Armor property. (for the record, I'm pretty sure it doesn't, because you have '+5 Robes' and then you have 'Robes of Armor +8'. They're still different items, functionally, they just happen to be in one physical location.)

I would say why go through the head ache? Just use your robes of armor +8 and cast magic vestment so no problem (so I guess if you want to spend the money I would allow +5 robes of armor +8 if it actually works out that way).

[Greenish]

I would say why go through the head ache? Just use your robes of armor +8 and cast magic vestment so no problem (so I guess if you want to spend the money I would allow +5 robes of armor +8 if it actually works out that way).Or have +1 Robes of Heavy Fortification and Armor +8, and then cast the Magic Vestments. :smalltongue: