Players/GM new to Psionics, could use some pointers

[TroubleBrewing]

I've been playing D&D for around a decade, and so have two of the four players involved in a new campaign I'm starting. The other two are relatively new, but we all share something in common. We all have exactly the same amount of experience with Psionics in 3.5 D&D; that is to say, we have none.

What happened is that the guy who taught me how to play D&D had a bad experience with Psionics once (Bad DM who didn't know the whole "cannot use more PP than ML" rule, had 0% system mastery, you know the rest) and pretty much wrote the entire Psionic system off as unplayable and stupid overpowered, a sentiment he passed on to me and consequently to everyone I've ever taught to play the game.

Well. Fast-forward about seven years, and I visit these boards, and start to learn the ins and outs of optimization. After about three years and a healthy amount of independent research, objective analysis, and user-generated reviews, I came to the conclusion that I was woefully mistaken in my previous beliefs regarding Psionics, and I want to rectify this as soon as possible.

I started by reading through the XPH, followed swiftly by Complete Psionics, and I had the two more experienced players create Psionic characters for a 4th level campaign. (Ardent and Psion, for those curious.)

I know how the system works, I understand the basics, so my questions for the board are these:

1) Are there any common pitfalls that entrap players new to Psionics? If so, how do I avoid them?

2) What is the relative Tier for all of the Psionic classes? (According to JaronK's Tier System for Classes. I notice that most of them are missing, with the exception of Psion, Erudite, PsyWar, and Soulknife.)

3) How do I sell the players more resistant to new ideas on the concept of Psionics? So far I've been resorting to "It's basically MP from every Final Fantasy game."

4) Aside from outright ban-hammering StP Erudite, what else do I need to look for as a GM? (Both in the players favor and in the interest of game balance).

Tl,dr: The thread title.

EDIT: (Apologies if I don't respond for about 12 hours. It's about 5am my time and I haven't been to bed yet. I'll check over replies and respond accordingly when I regain consciousness. :smallsmile:)

[Kantolin]

I believe, tier-wise:

Psions are solidly tier 2
Ardents are a low tier 2
Wilders are a very low tier 2 (or a very high tier 3)
Psychic warriors are a very solid tier 3
Lurks are a weak tier 3 or a strong tier 4, I believe
Soulknives are tier 5
Divine Minds are tier 5

[Malimar]

3) How do I sell the players more resistant to new ideas on the concept of Psionics? So far I've been resorting to "It's basically MP from every Final Fantasy game."

I only recently came around to recognizing psionics as anything other than terrible crap. What cracked the door open for me: page 91 and 92 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It made me chortle long and hard and induced me to give psionics a chance.

System-wise, it's better balanced and more fun than magic. It's more fun than prepared casting and more flexible than spontaneous casting. I don't know that I'd go so far as to say (as some do) it's what magic should have been in the first place, but if you can get them playing it, the system should certainly sell itself. Maybe ask them to just give it a try, and if they still hate it after a couple levels, they don't need to stick with it.


4) Aside from outright ban-hammering StP Erudite, what else do I need to look for as a GM? (Both in the players favor and in the interest of game balance).

Recite the following mantra until it haunts your dreams: You Can Never Spend More Power Points On One Power Than Your Manifester Level. (I think there are approximately two exceptions to this rule, but they are both very specific, explicit, and limited. Otherwise it is ironclad.) Half of perceived balance problems with psionics seems to be failure to completely grok this rule.

[Big Fau]

Just some words of advice:


There are several Power Point Recharge tricks out there. In general, they take long amounts of time to perform (at least round-wise), but can still cause problems for you. If you don't ban them outright, only allow the PsiWar, Lurk, and Divine Mind access to those tricks. Their PP tends to run really low if played properly, and it goes a long way to helping them (not that the PsiWar really needs that much help).
There exists one or two infinite action loops in Psionics. BAN THOSE OUTRIGHT.
Consider allowing the PF Soulknife, since it's actually a balanced class (and the only reason I can say that with a straight face is because the guys at Dreamscared Press designed it).
The XPH is a very limited source of powers for players. Eberron material and the 3rd party book Hyperconcious are both great additions for a psionic player, and are highly recommended reads.
Complete Psionic is notorious for a reason. Be very careful when reviewing material from it (basically, the only balanced thing is the Ardent, everything else is on one of two ends of the power chart).
LInked Power should never be allowed in a campaign unless you are really familiar with Psionics.

[Radar]

To be fair, PP recharge trics and infinite action loops require some investment in the character build and aren't that easy to find, so a regular "don't do anything stupidly broken" agreement will suffice.

Take note, if anyone picks Forced Dream or other powers allowing time travel. It's fairly balanced IMO without synergy with other powers and tricks (Save Game trick and knowing everything a day in advance trick), but requires you to keep the record of your previous turns. You might want to take a moment to decide, if you would allow stacked uses of Forced Dream to go back more then one round.

[Lateral]

What everyone else said, and also these:


Look through the CPsi carefully. Some of the nerfs make sense (Energy Missile, I'm a'lookin at you), while others are just stupid. (Astral Construct?! What the hell, WotC?) Some of the powers are okay, while others are borked. (Synchronicity can go *boop*.)
Use the resources available. The Mind's Eye articles and the XPH powers are free to access, Complete Psionics has some gems (although you'll need to keep your eyes on it), and Hyperconscious has some great expansions, I'm told.
Thrallherd is broken. Fix it before letting it be taken; taking out the pseudo-Leadership would be a good start
There is no Divine Mind.
Use the PF soulknife, it's actually decent. The PF wilder is designed better than the 3.5 wilder as well, and is still less powerful than a Psion, so I recommend using that, too. The other psionic PF classes aren't necessary; they're very similar, although I might think about using some of the PF prestige classes; the PF metamind is actually worth considering, unlike the 3.5 one.

[The Glyphstone]

What everyone else said, and also these:

[LIST]
Thrallherd is broken. Fix it before letting it be taken; taking out the pseudo-Leadership would be a good start


How do you fix Thrallherd? If you take out its Leadership+...it's got nothing left. Just some minor discounts on Charm and Dominate powers, which aren't worth the bonus feats you'd get from pure Psion. It's just a class that should be banned entirely if you ban Leadership, because it is nothing but Leadership: The Prestige Class.

[Lateral]

How do you fix Thrallherd? If you take out its Leadership+...it's got nothing left. Just some minor discounts on Charm and Dominate powers, which aren't worth the bonus feats you'd get from pure Psion. It's just a class that should be banned entirely if you ban Leadership, because it is nothing but Leadership: The Prestige Class.

Basically, you make up different abilities related to Dominating and stuff and replace them with them. It's not really a Thrallherd anymore, but it's a prestige class for Telepaths focusing on mindraping people into doing what you want.

I was wondering about this a few months ago; (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177777) I liked the one in the last post. Pretty much Psionic Mindbender combined with the remaining Thrallherd abilities.

[Yora]

Some weeks ago someone made an excelent explaination of psionics for people unfamiliar with the system. I'll try finding it again.

Edit: Here it is. Read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10635999&postcount=2) and you'll know everything you need to include psionic characters and creatures in your game.

[The Glyphstone]

Basically, you make up different abilities related to Dominating and stuff and replace them with them. It's not really a Thrallherd anymore, but it's a prestige class for Telepaths focusing on mindraping people into doing what you want.

I was wondering about this a few months ago; (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177777) I liked the one in the last post. Pretty much Psionic Mindbender combined with the remaining Thrallherd abilities.

Yeah, a rewrite of the class can work - but just removing the superLeadership leaves you with a gutted shell of a class.

[Lateral]

Yeah, a rewrite of the class can work - but just removing the superLeadership leaves you with a gutted shell of a class.

Oh, of course- the class was balanced over that. (:smallyuk:)

[Qwertystop]

I only recently came around to recognizing psionics as anything other than terrible crap. What cracked the door open for me: page 91 and 92 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It made me chortle long and hard and induced me to give psionics a chance.


I never noticed that before! That was hilarious. I wonder if it was a typo?

[Yora]

It's Deja Vu, isn't it? I'm sure it's Deja Vu.

*goes searching for the XPH*

Certainly NOT a typo. :smallbiggrin:

[Lateral]

It's Deja Vu, isn't it? I'm sure it's Deja Vu.

*goes searching for the XPH*

Certainly NOT a typo. :smallbiggrin:

Wait, what? I'm not finding anything funny.

[Qwertystop]

Wait, what? I'm not finding anything funny.

The power "Deja Vu" appears on both pages 91 and 92.

[Yora]

p.91 left column, p.92 central colum.

[Godskook]

1) Are there any common pitfalls that entrap players new to Psionics? If so, how do I avoid them?

No serious ones, but from what I can think of:
1.You're not meant to even spend PP=ML on your powers in most situations. Don't let vancian habits carry over. Powers scale better for their PP, so don't be afraid to hold back a little against normal encounters.

2.Be more versatile in initial selection. You're basically building with the sorcerer's mindset, not the wizard's. A single power will stretch a lot further than a single spell will

3.Complete Psi is not valid errata for XPH, both by RAW and by common sense of the stupid rules they put into it. If you keep this in mind, using both books is absolutely ok.


2) What is the relative Tier for all of the Psionic classes? (According to JaronK's Tier System for Classes. I notice that most of them are missing, with the exception of Psion, Erudite, PsyWar, and Soulknife.)

There aren't really that many outside of that.
-Ardent&Wilder are both roughly tier 2 as well, especially if you allow ACFs for Ardent
-I never hear Lurk and Divine Mind mentioned
-Psionic Rogue(whereever that is...)is supposed to be a rogue upgrade, so tier 3ish


3) How do I sell the players more resistant to new ideas on the concept of Psionics? So far I've been resorting to "It's basically MP from every Final Fantasy game."

Or...since Sorcerers are dragon's blood mixed into the Humanoids, how about that psionics is the same for mind flayers. Your D&D has mind flayers, right?


4) Aside from outright ban-hammering StP Erudite, what else do I need to look for as a GM? (Both in the players favor and in the interest of game balance).

1.Read the psionics combo thread, that'll be a really good start.

2.Most infinite PP schemes aren't viable within individual combats. Decide if you want to allow clever players to use such combos or if you'd rather keep the initial balance scheme. All it'll do is allow your psionics to go almost nova in all their late-game fights, but it won't make them any more dangerous on a per-round basis(thanks to the ML cap, which should never be allowed to go infinite).

[Essence_of_War]

The psychic rogue is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b).

For reference, I think it is FAR better choice for a psychic+sneaky archetype than the Lurk.

I love psionics. If I can convince my players the next time I'm the DM, I'm going to cut vancian casting completely from my universe and replace it with psionics.

[Lateral]

The psychic rogue is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b).

For reference, I think it is FAR better choice for a psychic+sneaky archetype than the Lurk.

I love psionics. If I can convince my players the next time I'm the DM, I'm going to cut vancian casting completely from my universe and replace it with psionics.
Makes for a great steampunk world.

...Just sayin'. :smallwink:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Well, as has been mentioned, you might check out the Psionic Tricks Handbook linked in my sig - it's meant as a sort of clearing house for what you can do with Psionics. That said, some of the stuff in there is pretty high-op, and there's at least one instance of TO material as well (Su: Psi and You). There's also a somewhat longer running version of the thread on Brilliant Gameologists, available here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10262.0).

[Fax Celestis]

Hyperconscious

Great expansion. Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential (both psi books, but from different publishers) are two of my five top-rated third-party books. I particularly love UP's Society Mind class.

[Lappy9000]

Someone suggested the Eberron books were good sources for new powers. Would someone be so kind as to tell me which books have psionic powers in them?

[Fax Celestis]

Races of Eberron, Magic of Eberron, Sharn, Xen'Drik, Five Kingdoms, and Forge of War all do, I think.

[Zaq]

No serious ones, but from what I can think of:
1.You're not meant to even spend PP=ML on your powers in most situations. Don't let vancian habits carry over. Powers scale better for their PP, so don't be afraid to hold back a little against normal encounters.

Seconding this. You should only spend the max amount of PP on any given power if you really need that thing to die NOW. Most new psionicists I see go through a "I USE MAX POWER ON EVERYTHING oh, I'm dry. And we're in the first combat," stage, then a "I WILL NEVER USE MY POWERS oh, we're going to sleep? And I have 2/3 of my PP left? So THAT'S why I wasn't really helping today," stage, then even it out to a more middle ground. If you can intellectually grasp it enough to skip one or both of those stages, that's great, but it does take some experience with it in play to really grasp it, I think.

[Urpriest]

Secrets of Sarlona has a bunch of nice utility powers.

[Yora]

Races of Eberron, Magic of Eberron, Sharn, Xen'Drik, Five Kingdoms, and Forge of War all do, I think.
Secret of Xen'drik does not. I think there's one psionic location, but it has no other psionic resources.

[deuxhero]

Complete Psionic is notorious for a reason. Be very careful when reviewing material from it (basically, the only balanced thing is the Ardent, everything else is on one of two ends of the power chart).


Soulbow is decent as well (well... as decent as you can get for a Soul Knife). The problem is that both Soulbow and Ardent are exerts (Well, the 2nd was in a preview) LTIC...

[Malimar]

Thrallherd is broken. Fix it before letting it be taken; taking out the pseudo-Leadership would be a good start

As others have said, if you take Leadership+ out of Thrallherd, the class is left with virtually nothing.

A better start is to mandate that thralls and believers may be NPC classes only, or tier 5/6 classes only, or something else along those lines.

Also, recognize that, like leadership, the thrallherd can try to acquire a thrall with a certain build, but the final decision on the thrallherd's build is completely up to the DM. If they ask for a batman wizard thrall, just give them a commoner instead (possibly one with the Corpse flaw).

Thrallherd is just Leadership with different hoops you need to jump through.
If you ban leadership, just ban Thrallherd.
If you nerf leadership, just apply the same nerfs to Thrallherd.
If you don't nerf leadership, don't nerf Thrallherd.
The last thing you should do is remove the Thrallherd's raison d'être.

[TroubleBrewing]

Thanks a lot for all of the suggestions and input, playground. Now it's time for me to respond! :smallbiggrin:

@Kantolin: Thanks for the Tier suggestions. It's not so much so I can restrict players to certain Tiers of play, it's more for my sake as a basic power reference sheet.

@Malimar: I agree completely. It seems a lot harder to screw up in terms of expending resources than traditional Vancian casting.

@Big Fau & Radar: I've been searching around for high-level exploits and have familiarized myself with most of the PP recharge shenanigans. Most, if not all of them, don't come online until higher levels, and seeing as they are starting at level 4, should not be a problem until much later.

@Lateral: I'm not a big fan of Pathfinder, if only because of a lack of exposure. I'll read through it when I get a chance, but for this campaign, I'm limiting it to first-party 3.5 material only. I'm banning Thrallherd outright, but what's wrong with Divine Mind?

@Glyphstone: I traditionally ban leadership unless I like a particular build that a player submits to me for approval beforehand. This game will be no exception, and as such, no Thrallherd! :smallbiggrin:

@Yora: That article was extremely informative. Thanks for the link!

@Godskook: For a treasure trove of useful and relevant advice, you win an internet. (That mind-flayer thing is a great way to induce some Lovecraft-style "ancestor horror". (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InTheBlood))

@Kalaska: Most of the high-OP stuff shouldn't be a problem. Not just because it's a low-level game, but because out of the entire group, I'm the only one that can be considered a "serious optimizer", and I'm a rank beginner as far as that goes.

@Fax: Thanks for the list of Eberron material. When I first read through the setting, I was impressed by Psionics, but remained convinced that their presence could only lead to tears and tragedy. I'll look through it again, now that I recognize the error of my ways. :smalltongue:

@Zaq: The emphasis helps. I'll try to impress this on them. I was unaware of this; I actually was under the impression that unless a manifester uses PP=ML on every power, they were coming in under the power level of a spellcaster of the same level.

@deuxhero: I appreciate the input, but I'm keeping my players as far away from the Soulknife as possible. (Nothing personal, Soulknife; I just worry that "suck" is contagious.)

[Lateral]

@Lateral: I'm not a big fan of Pathfinder, if only because of a lack of exposure. I'll read through it when I get a chance, but for this campaign, I'm limiting it to first-party 3.5 material only.

I don't really play PF. The only PF I ever use is the Psionics Unleashed soulknife and occasionally wilder if one of my players wants to play one. It was actually written by the Dreamscarred Press group, who have the guy who pretty much created the XPH on their side. (WotC didn't consult him for CPsi, and... yeah, you can see what happened.) The Soulknife fix is the real best part of it- Soulknife is a cool concept, and the PF one brings it up to par crunchwise.
It's perfectly reasonable not to use it if you aren't familiar, though- it's pretty much the same as normal, except for that Soulknife no longer sucks.

I'm banning Thrallherd outright, but what's wrong with Divine Mind?
It's not so much that it sucks (although it HORRIBLY does; it's similar to a Paladin, but Psionics already has TWO far better gish classes [Psychic Warrior and Ardent]), but that it absolutely butchers Psionics' flavor. Like, chops it up, lathers it in spice rub, and feeds it to the hounds.

[TroubleBrewing]

... it's similar to a Paladin...

You had me there. Oof. Paladin is the reason I'm a major proponent of the "classes as a metagame concept" philosophy. If I can build a better paladin using Cleric than you can using Paladin, there is something wrong.

Yeah, I'll steer my players away from Divine Mind for sure.

[Lateral]

It's one of the few classes that I always just outright ban on account of "butchery of the campaign world's flavor"- no matter the campaign world.

Even if, in the campaign world, Psionics is supposed to work like that. Because I would change it so it doesn't work like that. :smallsigh:

[Keld Denar]

Friends don't let friends play with Affinity Field. I know its a 9th level power, and that 9th level powers should have the ability to rend the universe asunder...but really? Really? REALLY? WTF were they thinking?

Affinity Field is the cornerstone to about 80% of the psionic game exploits. Without it, most of the Syncronicity and/or Fission and/or Scism abuse goes away.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Friends don't let friends play with Affinity Field. I know its a 9th level power, and that 9th level powers should have the ability to rend the universe asunder...but really? Really? REALLY? WTF were they thinking?

Affinity Field is the cornerstone to about 80% of the psionic game exploits. Without it, most of the Syncronicity and/or Fission and/or Scism abuse goes away.

Listen to this man, for his words are truth.

That said, it is a cool power, and can be a lot of fun in play. So depending on the level of power you're going for, it might be appropriate.

[Qwertystop]

what's it do?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

what's it do?

Affinity Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/affinityField.htm) lets you share your lower level powers with everyone in thirty feet, which is awesome with a lot of powers (since your low level powers are often still useful with augmentation) and crazy with powers like Bestow Power (have two people in the Affinity Field manifest Bestow Power in order to recharge) and even crazier with Synchronicity (Fission + Synchronicity = Infinite Standard Actions).

[Big Fau]

what's it do?

Lets you give the whole party Synchronicity. It gets stupid from there.

[Psyren]

Secrets of Sarlona has a bunch of nice utility powers.

If you go to no other Eberron source for powers, go to this one.


Great expansion. Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential (both psi books, but from different publishers) are two of my five top-rated third-party books. I particularly love UP's Society Mind class.

In addition, pretty much everything in Untapped Potential is available freely and legally online. (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/)

But if you're using UTP material, you might as well go whole-hog and use Psionics Unleashed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed), the Pathfinder update by the same team. (Jeremy has some further tweaks from the DSP Wilder/DSP Soulknife, for instance.)