Is Illusionary Wall Pointless?

[Milo v3]

IMO the spell Illusionary Wall is a pointless spell as it can easily be replicated with Silent Image. Is there any point to learning Illusionary Wall?

[Shadowknight12]

It's permanent. And a 4th level spell. Permanent Image is a 6th level spell.

Other than that, no, it doesn't have much going on for it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

IMO the spell Illusionary Wall is a pointless spell as it can easily be replicated with Silent Image. Is there any point to learning Illusionary Wall?

The biggest difference is this entry in Illusory Wall:

Duration: Permanent

It's a fire-and-forget spell, used in dungeon construction, that lets you build traps and illusionary wallpaper over them.

Silent Image only lasts as long as you concentrate (which also eats up your standard action for the round).

[Milo v3]

It's a fire-and-forget spell, used in dungeon construction
Now the only thing I can think of is a dungeon built by lazy mages. Which used it to hide the fact they never finished the walls.

So its permanent. Which is now making me think of Hallways that are actually huge slowly getting smaller because adventurers keep casting Illusionary Wall.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Now the only thing I can think of is a dungeon built by lazy mages. Which used it to hide the fact they never finished the walls.

So its permanent. Which is now making me think of Hallways that are actually huge slowly getting smaller because adventurers keep casting Illusionary Wall.

*sighs* Some of the more basic uses:

* Concealing a secret room. Because it's not a concealed door, elves don't automatically get a chance to find it.

* Concealing your back-door escape route. For when those pesky kids and that meddlesome dog show up and spoil your nefarious plans, you can still make clean your getaway.

* Concealing the pit trap in the floor. With a pool of acid below. With acid-breathing sharks. That shoot lasers.

* Concealing the hole in the roof that the anvil is carefully stored in, so it can drop down on someone's head when they walk underneath and step on the pressure plate

* Creating sniper points for Tucker's Kobolds

* Hiding the nook with the lever that is the solution to the fiendish puzzle trap

The possibilities are endless.

[HalfDragonCube]

Another use: making characters walk into walls.

Cast it over a normal wall.
Wait until a character uses Detect Magic.
It will ping as illusion.
They walk through it.
Klonk.

Of course once True Seeing is available then this is no longer of any use.

[El Dorado]

Build outdoor decorative mazes with them.

[Shadowknight12]

Illusory Wall is only fun when it's unexpected. You have to make it a whole floor in a room, or the entire eastern wall of a building, for example.

But really, all of that is hardly creative. Use it to conceal a pit trap that leads not to a gruesome death, but to the dungeon's fey harem. Players will find the trap, walk around it, and pat themselves on the back for being so clever. And you'll smirk smugly and say "Yes, clever indeed."

[HalfDragonCube]

Illusory Wall is only fun when it's unexpected. You have to make it a whole floor in a room, or the entire eastern wall of a building, for example.

But really, all of that is hardly creative. Use it to conceal a pit trap that leads not to a gruesome death, but to the dungeon's fey harem. Players will find the trap, walk around it, and pat themselves on the back for being so clever. And you'll smirk smugly and say "Yes, clever indeed."

Or the Leeroy Jenkins falls in and the entire session devolves into discussions of how many nymphs each party member gets to keep.

[Qwertystop]

Another use: making characters walk into walls.

Cast it over a normal wall.
Wait until a character uses Detect Magic.
It will ping as illusion.
They walk through it.
Klonk.

Of course once True Seeing is available then this is no longer of any use.

That one is great.

[Shadowknight12]

Or the Leeroy Jenkins falls in and the entire session devolves into discussions of how many nymphs each party member gets to keep.

I assume that if they have a way to distribute party treasure without fighting, the same principle can apply to nymphs. Alternatively, I can just give five to each. Even the most creative of them will be hard-pressed to justify getting more than that.

[Qwertystop]

Alternately, the nymphs blind and stun them all, then proceed to destroy them with standard Druid spells. Just because they're a harem doesn't mean they're not really nymphs.
:smallbiggrin:

[Shadowknight12]

Alternately, the nymphs blind and stun them all, then proceed to destroy them with standard Druid spells. Just because they're a harem doesn't mean they're not really nymphs.
:smallbiggrin:

I said fey, not nymphs. If I was really planning to be nasty, I'd just make them all satyrs or verdant princes with sorcerer levels. And have them use Dominate Person, so that whatever happens is completely willing. :smallamused:

[Jack_Simth]

Now the only thing I can think of is a dungeon built by lazy mages. Which used it to hide the fact they never finished the walls.That's actually a useful use.

See, if the *entire dungeon* is coated in illusions, the fact that something has an aura of illusion about it doesn't make it special. So if you coat all of your plain stone walls and plain stone floors with illusions of various natures, they can't tell just with Detect Magic / Arcane Sight that this next segment of flooring is illusory and covering a pit trap, nor can they tell that a particular section of wall is not, in fact, a wall, but a hidden passageway.

To fool traditional trapfinding, you include a couple of castings of Phantom Trap every here and there, as well.

[ericgrau]

There's also the part where illusions only grant a save if interacted with. That's far more likely to happen (and suspicion in general) if there's a nearby caster who just erected the wall a few rounds ago.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Of course once True Seeing is available then this is no longer of any use.

True Seeing has a rather expensive material component. Most players won't be using it constantly. The earliest you can honestly expect a party to have it up, all the time, 24/7 is going to be an 8th level spell for Greater Prying Eyes.


There's also the part where illusions only grant a save if interacted with. That's far more likely to happen (and suspicion in general) if there's a nearby caster who just erected the wall a few rounds ago.

Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Wall of... yea, Conjuration can help you make a wall out of nearly any damn substance. Why should this cause any question?

[Yuki Akuma]

250 gp is not "expensive", even at the earliest level it can be cast (9th). By the time the Wizard gets it (11th), he really can afford to cast it all the time.

[Seharvepernfan]

I was under the impression that illusory wall couldnt be detected by sight, it had to be touched or otherwise interacted with in order to provide a save.

Silent image is just sight, I believe.

[Qwertystop]

Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Wall of... yea, Conjuration can help you make a wall out of nearly any damn substance. Why should this cause any question?
Just because it might be real doesn't mean nobody should bother checking. I see the wizard make a wall appear, if I think that means the wizard is weakened and can't take any more, I charge the wall. It might be fake, after all.

[Coidzor]

I said fey, not nymphs. If I was really planning to be nasty, I'd just make them all satyrs or verdant princes with sorcerer levels. And have them use Dominate Person, so that whatever happens is completely willing. :smallamused:

Right. Willing. Completely disregarding the point of the Enchantment school. :smallsigh:

Throwing rape into the equation isn't so much nasty as just nasty and is a good way to get smacked.

[Shadowknight12]

Right. Willing. Completely disregarding the point of the Enchantment school. :smallsigh:

Throwing rape into the equation isn't so much nasty as just nasty and is a good way to get smacked.

It was a joke. Hence the smiley. Hence the blatant wrongness of what I was saying. Is it black humour? Sure. But it's humour nonetheless. I wouldn't do that a player without his or her permission (and do forgive me if I say this so nonchalantly, but I've had stranger requests). I don't need a lecture on how bad it is to freaking rape a character.

Geez.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Just because it might be real doesn't mean nobody should bother checking. I see the wizard make a wall appear, if I think that means the wizard is weakened and can't take any more, I charge the wall. It might be fake, after all.

Considering most of the wall type spells are around the same spell level, you are welcome to do so. Personally, I'd think that if he is almost down for the count, I'd use a *real* wall, not a fake one...

[Greenish]

I was under the impression that illusory wall couldnt be detected by sight, it had to be touched or otherwise interacted with in order to provide a save.

Silent image is just sight, I believe.No, illusions offer saves only when interacted.

(Unless you're, say, a church inquisitor.)

[opticalshadow]

illusionary walls i love, because they can be used to instill paranoia. like the other hiding traps or fake traps, or making every inch of you lair glow with power, they can also make some areas appear much more harmful, or less as you please.

my dred necro bbeg, with dungeon master levels (i think thats what its called) use to design increaseingly more dangerous levels, with taking walls made out of zombies and plants with poison. making the safest area to go though the most difficult, or by simply imploreing the pc's to follow your will.

as an evil mastermind, watching the players follow your plans so nicly, with you not having to do nothign more then putting a few fake walls up, is hours of fun.

[tyckspoon]

The possibilities are endless.

Hiding a Prismatic Wall inside it so the party runs into it face-first after chasing the BBEG through the 'obviously illusionary' wall right after he does something to really piss them off..

[cZak]

I used it in a RP moment between the party and the 'bosses' of the city.

One of said bosses did not like/ trust the party (with good reason), and had the meet in her territory.

An Illusionary(?) wall shortened the room by ten feet where she had three of her best 'troubleshooters' (rogues) hiding with loaded crossbows, conveniently within 30' of the rest of the room.

If the negotiations broke down, the rogues had a nice flat foot'd/ sneak attack opportunity on the party.:smallamused:

[PirateLizard]

Put a cube in the floor, cover the hall's floor with moss or gunk cast illusionary wall over it. They won't even know why they're making the fort saves until someone fails and disappears into the floor. Just don't be a jerk and try to claim the cube has total concealment even after they figure out the floor is fake, since yanno, it doesn't disappear.

[navar100]

I used it for a simple maze. The players are instructed to find the exit. They are told (honestly) there are no traps and no secret doors in the maze. They can give up any time they want. The party explores the entire maze. They walk through every corridor. They don't find the exit door. Most give up. Once when I ran this a couple of players figured it out after exploring the maze to nowhere. They went back to the entrance and started to search the walls, probably thinking they were lied to when told there were no secret doors. They find the wall immediately to the left of where they came in is an illusion. Walking through, they're in a long corridor with a door at the end. That's the exit.

[Veyr]

...that's very definitely a secret door, IMO.

[Zale]

Technically, the wall is secret. Not the door.

[Fuhrmaaj]

One thing I don't understand about illusions such as Illusory Wall is what the Will save means. You only get a Will save if you interact with the Illusory Wall, but if you fail it then what happens? Usually you only probe the wall if you suspect shenanigans, but if you fail the Will save do you think, "Shoot, broke the wall. Someone might get mad I better leave?" I'm not sure, strikes me weird. I wish it were a shadow effect so that people who belief in the fake wall actually can't pass through (or can stand on it or whatever).

[Jack_Simth]

I used it for a simple maze. The players are instructed to find the exit. They are told (honestly) there are no traps and no secret doors in the maze. They can give up any time they want. The party explores the entire maze. They walk through every corridor. They don't find the exit door. Most give up. Once when I ran this a couple of players figured it out after exploring the maze to nowhere. They went back to the entrance and started to search the walls, probably thinking they were lied to when told there were no secret doors. They find the wall immediately to the left of where they came in is an illusion. Walking through, they're in a long corridor with a door at the end. That's the exit.If you asked the sales rep if there were any other fees associated with the use of the phone other than the ones he'd already explicitly listed, he said "no", and later on your bill, you found a "charge" for something the sales rep hadn't explicitly listed, and after some investigation you found out that the sales rep was very well aware of this, would you consider that the sales rep had told you "no" "honestly"?


One thing I don't understand about illusions such as Illusory Wall is what the Will save means. You only get a Will save if you interact with the Illusory Wall, but if you fail it then what happens? Usually you only probe the wall if you suspect shenanigans, but if you fail the Will save do you think, "Shoot, broke the wall. Someone might get mad I better leave?" I'm not sure, strikes me weird. I wish it were a shadow effect so that people who belief in the fake wall actually can't pass through (or can stand on it or whatever).
Probing searches, per the spell description of Illusory Wall, automatically detect the illusion. So if you touch it, you know it's a fake wall.

You'd do well to read the Illusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion) section of the Magic Overview, specifically the section on Saving Throws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htmsavingThrowsandIllusionsDisbe lief):
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus. (Emphasis and emphasis added)

So you can study something carefully without touching it - or if you can interact with it in some way - you get your saving throw. If you fail, you believe it to be real. However, if you interact with the illusion in a manner it doesn't cover (e.g., you just watched someone walk *through* that Major Image of a Dire Tiger - Major Image doesn't stop people - or you have Blindsight and you can tell that the wall isn't there, as it doesn't stop blindsight) then you get to auto-disbelieve it, no roll required.

[Veyr]

Technically, the wall is secret. Not the door.
And such game terms have no relevance to a character who is told there are no secret doors. The door is very much secret, even if Detect Secret Doors wouldn't pick it up (which is, itself, dubious). note: Detect Secret Doors absolutely would pick up on it.

[erikun]

A secret door at the end of a "long" (assuming 20+ feet) hallway would not be picked up at the intersection. If the hallway was even longer, say 100 feet, then not even the spell would pick it up. Or perhaps the spell would pick it up from the shorter hallway, but then the players need to figure out how (and why) the spell is detecting a secret passageway on the other side of a solid wall.

[Veyr]

The spell explicitly picks up secret passages. Just because the door isn't within range doesn't matter in the slightest.

[zyborg]

So, a Secret Hole In The Wall counts as a Secret Door? Huh. Depending on the size, I would say it is justifiable to say there are no secret "doors"...

[Coidzor]

Mincing words too much about this is a bit too close to toeing the line in regards to the "Don't be _______" rule, and exponentially approaches violating it the more instances there are and the further one twists words and thought patterns to attempt to justify it as not violating the "Don't be ______" rule.

edit: Violating the "Don't be ______" rule can be hazardous to one's health, as one takes damage as if bitten by a D&D Player.

[Greenish]

(e.g., you just watched someone walk *through* that Major Image of a Dire Tiger - Major Image doesn't stop people - or you have Blindsight and you can tell that the wall isn't there, as it doesn't stop blindsight) then you get to auto-disbelieve it, no roll required.How'd you know which one was the illusion, the dire tiger or the fellow who walked through it? :smalltongue:

[Alefiend]

The fun doesn't have to end once the party has True Seeing or similar magic. Use your Illusionary Wall to conceal a lever, button, chest, or other item that will tempt the party.

"Oh ho," they'll say. "Looks like somebody didn't reckon on our power!" They will then proceed to pull/press/open/whatever the item, which is of course trapped, poisoned, and cursed in ways that True Seeing won't detect.

This is just the sort of trick that mastermind-type villains, or anybody who thinks the party is too clever for its own good, will use to put a little fear back into the smug bastages who are looting his abode.

[Jack_Simth]

How'd you know which one was the illusion, the dire tiger or the fellow who walked through it? :smalltongue:
Generally, because you're familiar with the guy who walked through it.

[erikun]

"Only passages, doors, or openings that have been specifically constructed to escape detection are detected by this spell." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectSecretDoors.htm) A standard hallway that has an illusion plastered over it would be hard to consider "specifically constructed to escape detection".

"Constructed" being the key word here.

And, ultimately, one spell not registering on the mage's auto-detect radar, especially when a simple search will reveal it, does not strike me as overpowered or fait-y one bit. The very idea that the rogue might turn out better in one situation than the wizard is not something I consider DM-munchkinry or a reason to ban the spell.


As for the spell itself, I've found it quite useful against mindless creatures (golems and undead, normally) as they tend to have commands along the lines of "attack any who enter this room". Simply plopping an illusionary wall in front of them frequently makes them stop attacking altogether, as they lack the intelligence to attempt to follow you. They tend to have rather unimpressive Will saves, too.

[shadow_archmagi]

* Concealing the pit trap in the floor. With a pool of acid below. With acid-breathing sharks. That shoot lasers.


No no no no

Pools of acid are so... immobile.

Cool kids use oozes (gelatinous cube for silliness) full of sharks, since the sharks are immune to the acid damage anyway

[zyborg]

No no no no

Pools of acid are so... immobile.

Cool kids use oozes (gelatinous cube for silliness) full of sharks, since the sharks are immune to the acid damage anyway

You just gave me an idea. I suck at statting up creatures, so perhaps someone could team up with me so we can create a new monster - the Ooze-dweller? I mean, a Gelatinous Cube with a monster inside would be so awesome.

[Greenish]

You just gave me an idea. I suck at statting up creatures, so perhaps someone could team up with me so we can create a new monster - the Ooze-dweller?There's Acidborn template in Dungeonscape, which gives the creature immunity to acid (and acid to bite damage).

The sample creature is, of course, a shark.

[shadow_archmagi]

He he he

my players are still talking about the time they got attacked by a giant acid breathing squid and the party wizard was pulled into the acid

[erikun]

There's Acidborn template in Dungeonscape, which gives the creature immunity to acid (and acid to bite damage).
Could you apply the template to, say, an ooze? Such as a Gelatinous Cube? That way, you could put Cubes in your Cube... kind of like those multiflavored Skittles.

[Milo v3]

Could you apply the template to, say, an ooze? Such as a Gelatinous Cube? That way, you could put Cubes in your Cube... kind of like those multiflavored Skittles.

As the DM I reserve the right to force my players to fight Jelly Cubes, in Jelly Cubes, in Jelly Cubes, in an acid pool.

[shadow_archmagi]

Could you apply the template to, say, an ooze? Such as a Gelatinous Cube? That way, you could put Cubes in your Cube... kind of like those multiflavored Skittles.

If I recall correctly, Cubes are already acid immune, so there's no reason you couldn't put cubes in cubes.

[Coidzor]

If I recall correctly, Cubes are already acid immune, so there's no reason you couldn't put cubes in cubes.

Aside from spatial limitations, anyway.

[erikun]

If I recall correctly, Cubes are already acid immune, so there's no reason you couldn't put cubes in cubes.
Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#gelatinousCube) They do have natural paralysis immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#oozeType) though, so you don't need to worry about your oozes paralyzing your oozes.

Even better - make a Gelli Cube swarm! A bunch of tiny Cubes that burst out as soon as you are done killing the large Cube.

Okay, I think I've run off topic far enough.

[HalfDragonCube]

Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#gelatinousCube) They do have natural paralysis immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#oozeType) though, so you don't need to worry about your oozes paralyzing your oozes.

Even better - make a Gelli Cube swarm! A bunch of tiny Cubes that burst out as soon as you are done killing the large Cube.

Okay, I think I've run off topic far enough.

Half green dragon cubes could manage it. Listen, I know a guy who can hook you up with some. See me round the back in ten minutes. 'Kay?

[Cicciograna]

Could you apply the template to, say, an ooze? Such as a Gelatinous Cube? That way, you could put Cubes in your Cube... kind of like those multiflavored Skittles.

Cubeception.

[PirateLizard]

In my experience a cubeswarm is not nearly as much fun as an actual cube =(. That's just flat out crossing the swarm template with a cube though. Hrm...Living Spellswarm?

[HalfDragonCube]

In my experience a cubeswarm is not nearly as much fun as an actual cube =(. That's just flat out crossing the swarm template with a cube though. Hrm...Living Spellswarm?

Templates are always fun on oozes. I remember this one-shot campaign I ran because the DM was ill. All the PCs were gelatinous cubes with one template of their choice. Most of the session dissolved into character art, but the stuff we did do was funny.

[potatocubed]

The fiendish gelatinous cube monk is probably still my favourite D&D monster.

[mootoall]

Yo dawg, we heard you liked Jell-o ...

[ericgrau]

I'd like to make a dungeon where the doors and doorways are all real but the walls are all illusions. Then I'd give the party something they want to chase after so there's a time crunch and they don't want to check everything. Plus constant fights. Foes would run around corners and then, one out of sight, somehow disappear, only to heal up and regroup. The PCs might figure it out right away or after a long time, but it'd be amusing in the meantime.

[Jack_Simth]

I'd like to make a dungeon where the doors and doorways are all real but the walls are all illusions. Then I'd give the party something they want to chase after so there's a time crunch and they don't want to check everything. Plus constant fights. Foes would run around corners and then, one out of sight, somehow disappear, only to heal up and regroup. The PCs might figure it out right away or after a long time, but it'd be amusing in the meantime.Realistically, they'd figure it out after a few misses with a ranged weapon. Arguably on the first miss, when the arrow doesn't clatter on the nonexistent wall just past the opponent.

[ericgrau]

Hmmm... about half the parties I see are without focused archers, less than that online. But they often have other ranged attacks. Ya you'd have to make maybe half the walls real, if not 90%, and have the monsters stand in the right places.

[tiercel]

Once parties have true seeing, does that invalidate illusionary wall (and other illusions)?

Well heck, if judicious use of illusionary wall causes the PCs to go into Full Paranoia Mode, for zero cost you've just forced them to burn a whole bunch of 6th (or possibly higher) level spells -- or more realistically for most classes, you've forced them to use up the limited number of true seeing spells they actually have prepared today.

Remember, every extra true seeing is one less disintegrate or similar, and if you can burn through PCs' true seeing *before* the BBEG fight, so much the better.

[Yora]

And every true seeing is 250 gp. With most cash tied up in permanent magic items, this burns through your cash reserve pretty fast if you keep it on all the time you're in a dungeon.
Illusory Wall is free.

[Cerlis]

If you asked the sales rep if there were any other fees associated with the use of the phone other than the ones he'd already explicitly listed, he said "no", and later on your bill, you found a "charge" for something the sales rep hadn't explicitly listed, and after some investigation you found out that the sales rep was very well aware of this, would you consider that the sales rep had told you "no" "honestly"?


Probing searches, per the spell description of Illusory Wall, automatically detect the illusion. So if you touch it, you know it's a fake wall.

You'd do well to read the Illusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion) section of the Magic Overview, specifically the section on Saving Throws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htmsavingThrowsandIllusionsDisbe lief):(Emphasis and emphasis added)

So you can study something carefully without touching it - or if you can interact with it in some way - you get your saving throw. If you fail, you believe it to be real. However, if you interact with the illusion in a manner it doesn't cover (e.g., you just watched someone walk *through* that Major Image of a Dire Tiger - Major Image doesn't stop people - or you have Blindsight and you can tell that the wall isn't there, as it doesn't stop blindsight) then you get to auto-disbelieve it, no roll required.

the issue i have with this is just cus something weird happens to something doesnt mean you omniciently know everything about it.

If a Man walked through a tiger you'd realize there was something wrong. you'd get your will save or your will save bonus. but you wouldnt auto disbalieve. you'd have no reason to, because you have no idea why what happened happened. as far as you know one of them is a ghost, or you are hallucinating, or they used some other type of magic. Just think of all the times in movies and stories (since we dont have magic in the real world, and the only thing close to a real example would involve a hologram, which we dont have good enough versions yet) a person encounters an illusion. the first thing he does when he "proves" its an illusion is run his hand through it, or step through it again. and then after moving through it a few times he assumes its an illusion .interestingly many writers use this as a trope/cliche in which one person passes through something real because of a magic item or enchantment and the second person conks right into it because it is real and they both thought it was an illusion. So really will save only covers if your soul actually sees through the magic. Your illusionist can use a knowledge arcana check and say "There are no red dragons in the artic, this is obviously fake" and walk right into the dragon. While a Paranoid barbarian will continue swinging at a major image of the laughing sorcerer because he thinks the illusion is a ghost, cus he knows the sorcerer has tricks (making a sword unable to touch him) but has never in his life realized people would be capable of making pictures move on their own. whether you believe in it or not is completely irrelivant and simply put , moving an object through an illusion doesnt disprove it.

thats always the way i have interpreted it

[Coidzor]

And every true seeing is 250 gp. With most cash tied up in permanent magic items, this burns through your cash reserve pretty fast if you keep it on all the time you're in a dungeon.
Illusory Wall is free.

Which leads us back to the "Don't be a _______________" Rule.

[michaelmichael]

Dealing with true seeing is tough, but there are ways.

One way is to have a few of the illusory walls conceal hidden symbol spells. Symbol of death is popular, since it removes whoever cast true seeing. A much more fun one is symbol of insanity. It creates amazing chaos when the mage, upon casting true seeing, immediately starts attacking a random party member, or fleeing in a random direction.

The other way would be a screen spell. Filling an area with thick invisible fog, or using purely illusory light sources in an area of total magical darkness will help negate some of the usefulness, but can be countered independently. A more evil means of stopping true seeing is to use the screen to vanish the expensive component or items causing the trouble. This is particularly good if they rely on a gem of seeing. The gem can be made invisible itself, or made to show whatever image the caster of screen designates.

That said, illusory wall can double as poor man's permanent invisibility, a la optical illusions. Anyone who's seen Indiana Jones and the Quest for the Holy Grail should remember the expertly painted 'invisible bridge' challenge.

:thog:

[Jack_Simth]

thats always the way i have interpreted it
Quite possibly. And, to be fair, the game doesn't explicitly call out what qualifies as "proof", so it'll vary by DM. Someone you know to be real and solid walking through something you've not previously encountered will fly as "proof" with most DM's. But apparently, not all.

[Cerlis]

Quite possibly. And, to be fair, the game doesn't explicitly call out what qualifies as "proof", so it'll vary by DM. Someone you know to be real and solid walking through something you've not previously encountered will fly as "proof" with most DM's. But apparently, not all.

exactly. just as how players when starting a new group or DM should be warry that minor metagaming might happen in this group, or that the DM might actually ask you to think of a cunning lie yourself in that group.

I'd personally rule that moving through an illusion doesnt let you auto disbelieve. but i wouldnt throw a fit if i was a player and my DM ruled otherwise.

[Coidzor]

I'd personally rule that moving through an illusion doesnt let you auto disbelieve. but i wouldnt throw a fit if i was a player and my DM ruled otherwise.

Then what the heck does it do when you know you're seeing something but pass through it without having been effected by a spell? :smallconfused:

[ericgrau]

By RAW proof of an illusion auto disbelieves. You get a save when you interact with it, such as examining it, and no save if you don't. That's why illusory walls are best used for side passages rather than dead ends. But ya if you touch an illusory wall you know it's fake no save.

[vartan]

http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=541

In this comic, an illusory wall conceals a prismatic wall... Relevant to your interests?

[tiercel]

Which leads us back to the "Don't be a _______________" Rule.

It's hardly being a ________ to not just throw up your hands and go "oh noes, my PCs have true seeing all illusions are ruined FOREVER." True seeing is *meant* to be limited use, as evidenced by its nonzero material component cost and short duration, and honestly it's not *that* hard to defeat an illusionary wall (a standard issue 10' pole and some patience do just fine).

The point is that your PCs might not just auto-win against illusions just because they *can* cast true seeing -- they're hardly likely to be having it on 24/7 (and if you are allowing them to have items/some kind of permanencied cheese of always-on true seeing, it's really your own darn fault and you will have to worry about it then.. and really only then).

[panaikhan]

Idea.
Mix up a maze with real walls, illusionary walls, and non-corporeal undead (that the PC's can recognize as such)
There's also a really wierd spell (2.x I think) I have a vague rememberance of - if cast on a solid object (like a section of wall) and the viewer fails their save, it becomes 'not there' until they look at it again.

[Qwertystop]

Idea.
Mix up a maze with real walls, illusionary walls, and non-corporeal undead (that the PC's can recognize as such)
There's also a really wierd spell (2.x I think) I have a vague rememberance of - if cast on a solid object (like a section of wall) and the viewer fails their save, it becomes 'not there' until they look at it again.

So it makes stuff invisible?

Also, for the maze, add Walls of Force (since they're invisible) and Shadow Conjuration Walls of Stone. And Shadow Evocation Walls of Force, if you can get them (not sure whether the level is too high). You can essentially make the entire place look like a solid block, but there is a pathway that's illusion, some of which you can only go through if you fail a save.

Also, make pitfall traps out of Shadow Conjuration Walls of Stone, so that the weak-willed Barbarian falls through and the Wizard keeps going.

[Yuki Akuma]

Also, make pitfall traps out of Shadow Conjuration Walls of Stone, so that the weak-willed Barbarian falls through and the Wizard keeps going.

What?

Shadow Conjuration works in reverse. The weak-willed barbarian will find it perfectly solid while the wizard falls through it.

[Shadowknight12]

What?

Shadow Conjuration works in reverse. The weak-willed barbarian will find it perfectly solid while the wizard falls through it.

And that's why you should use it. Because the barbarian won't save and the wizard has Overland Flight.

[Qwertystop]

What?

Shadow Conjuration works in reverse. The weak-willed barbarian will find it perfectly solid while the wizard falls through it.

That's what I meant. If done at mid-low levels, the Wizard might not have a long-duration flying spell up, and could die from falling damage onto spiky stuff. The barbarian then faces the evil caster.

[blackjack217]

Now the only thing I can think of is a dungeon built by lazy mages. Which used it to hide the fact they never finished the walls.

http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=541
and http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=999999
heh.

[only1doug]

http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=541
and http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=547
heh.

Fixed that for you posterity.

heh, that prismatic wall was my idea.

[ericgrau]

http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=541

In this comic, an illusory wall conceals a prismatic wall... Relevant to your interests?

Also of relevance is that the opponent needed to keep on acting in that fight, rather than spend his rounds concentrating on an illusion. The only other way to do that would be permanent image, which is a 6th level spell. And disbelieving an illusory wall doesn't make it see-through, whereas disbelieving most other illusions does.

So illusory wall is often way better because you don't have to sit there and concentrate on the spell. You can do whatever else you were doing. Such as getting away or setting up your next attack.

[Cerlis]

Then what the heck does it do when you know you're seeing something but pass through it without having been effected by a spell? :smallconfused:

I dont understand the question

[Jack_Simth]

I dont understand the question
"You walk through a wall, and absolutely nothing happens."

The question basically amounts to "At what point do you consider it 'proof'?", if I'm reading it correctly. Which is, you know, a fair question.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Disbelieving it, however, does not cause it to vanish, as it does most other illusions. So, unless you have some form of True Sight, it still blocks Line of Sight, and possibly Line of Effect as well.

[Veyr]

Why would it block Line of Effect? It wouldn't do that even if you believed in it.

[Thiyr]

Idea.
Mix up a maze with real walls, illusionary walls, and non-corporeal undead (that the PC's can recognize as such)
There's also a really wierd spell (2.x I think) I have a vague rememberance of - if cast on a solid object (like a section of wall) and the viewer fails their save, it becomes 'not there' until they look at it again.


The spell you may be thinking of, which a friend of mine imported from Hackmaster to 3.5, would be There/Not there. Pretty much, if it is ever unobserved and then re-observed, there's a 50% chance it's either there or not.

[noob]

I think it was in ad&d too.

[_zaphod77_]

Illusory wall is better than minor image due to being permanent for no cost.

It was better before 3e, though. back in second edition, you could lean against an illusory wall, and not fall through, or even get a save. If you tried to probe it, you would get a save, but if you failed it, it would fool your sense of touch too and stop the probe. You would be convinced of it's solidness. But on the other hand if you threw a rock at the wall it would go through. This would give you a new save, but if you failed that you still couldn't walk through it. You could try, but you would flinch because you though the wall was real.

On the other hand a programmed illusion could fool the ball toss check, by making an illusory item bounce off to replace the real one. Illusions were severely nerfed going from 2 to 3. The mirage arcana "die cuz you disbelieved and now you are in molten lava instead of a cool pond trap" no longer works in 3e, but worked fine in 2e (and this one was in the SPELL DESCRIPTION!). Illusions were sickeningly powerful when used properly in 2d edition.

3e did away with most of this stuff, preventing any illusion without a shadow component from having any real effects whatsoever.

There was some truly sick illusion trickery in some modules in 2e. Here's an example from a real module i read.

You see a statue with 8 rattles.

Player a) i pick the one at the upper left.
GM: you take the one from the upper left. everyone else sees you take the one from the upper right.
Players: OH COME ON!
player b) i disbelieve
GM: you have no cause to disbelieve. that's metagaming. you have no reason to suspect an illusion.
gm: player a, roll 1d6. add this to your CON.
player b: i took the one he took
GM: you reach and take the one at the upper right. you die. no save.
GM: player knows he took the upper left, but all other players think he took upper right. player a knws that player 2 took upper right, but cannot communicate the fact that the two choices were different. all other players saw player a get a beneficial effect from the one at the upper right, and player b die form makign the same choice
player c: well i pick a different one. i take the lower right.
GM: you take the one at the lower left everyone else sees you take the upper right.

Anyone who takes "the same on another player took" dies no save, with no possible workaround. anyone who takes a different one from what they saw everyone else take can get it's effect. no attempt to try and work out the trickery works, and there's no cause to disbelieve. the illusion covers all eventualities and senses. True seeing works, but can't reach back into the past. and won't help the audio components that fool all attempts to communicate your knowledge except for writing down with the reader then having true seeing.

Oh, and if someone takes a second one, they die, no save as well (and everyone else sees it as the upper right).

Yes, this is in a published Ravenloft module.

[ayvango]

And every true seeing is 250 gp.
Use arcane sight instead.

[creakyaccordion]

My question is, does the spell still block line of sight even after it's "disbelieved", can one "see past it" once you know it's an illusion, or not?

[Duke of Urrel]

My question is, does the spell still block line of sight even after it's "disbelieved", can one "see past it" once you know it's an illusion, or not?

This is actually a very good question, and when i say this, I mean that I can't answer it.

There are two somewhat conflicting rules. One of them appears in the SRD's description of spells of the Illusion school (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion), in the section under "Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)."


A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

The other rule appears in the description of the Illusory Wall spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/illusoryWall.htm) itself.


Touch or a probing search reveals the true nature of the surface, though such measures do not cause the illusion to disappear.

In my judgement, when you disbelieve the Illusory Wall spell, either by making a Will save to disbelieve or by interacting with the wall to prove to yourself that it is illusory, the wall appears as a "translucent outline," so that it no longer blocks line of sight, although you can still see the wall.

I also have some house rules. If you want to read them, go ahead. If house rules annoy you, just skip to the POSTSCRIPT below.

HOUSE RULES

I interpret “translucent outline” to mean a three-dimensional image that is visible, but so nearly transparent that you can see real creatures and objects through it. If you successfully disbelieve a visible illusion, you can focus your eyes either on this illusory form or on the real creatures and objects that it hides or distorts, with no penalty in either case. Focusing your eyes on either real or illusory features is a reaction, and you can always discern which are real and which are illusory.

When you make an illusion-detecting Will save against any part of a visible illusion, you become able to see through it, as if it were made of lightly tinted glass. At the same time, every other illusory object, creature, or feature created by the same spell becomes nearly transparent to you and no longer conceals anything behind or inside itself, so that you can easily distinguish it from any real object or creature.

POSTSCRIPT

Not everybody will agree with my interpretation. Some reasonable people will say that the text of the Illusory Wall spell carves out an exception to the general rule that appears in the description of spells of the Illusion school, so that the effect of the Illusory Wall spell, unlike the effect of any other visible figment (unless it was created with the Chains of Disbelief (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#chainsofDisbelief)abi lity), remains opaque to you even after you disbelieve it. And this interpretation is ... okay. In conclusion: Ask your dungeon master.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread necromancy is disfavored here.