Detect Thoughts and PCs

[Zylle]

Hello everyone!

First time DM here, with a question about Detect Thoughts. Specifically, about how to handle one of my PCs using Detect Thoughts on another PC to determine their alignment. I have one lawful evil PC in a party with 4 others that are all somewhere on the good spectrum; and my Neutral Good wizard wants to use detect thoughts on the Lawful Evil cleric, who's been attempting to conceal his alignment from the party (even going as far as to cast undetectable alignment on himself each morning).

How should I handle this?

[Greenish]

Detect Thoughts doesn't reveal alignment, only surface thoughts. That might reveal if the target is seriously planning doing something evil, but it might just as well tell you he's pondering what to eat for lunch (and unless he considers eating babies, that probably doesn't tell you anything about his alignment).

[Edit]: Does your wizard have any reason to suspect the cleric is evil, other than that you know it as a fact since you're the DM?

[Shadowknight12]

Thoughts don't betray alignment. People don't go around thinking "Oh, it's so nice to be evil! Being lawful evil is even better! Oh, man, the rest of the party are all suckers! Mwahahaha!"

Basically, unless the PC is actively having unwholesome thoughts, his alignment should never come into question.

Work it out with the player, though, because if he fails his save (which ought to be a rare thing, since he has good will saves, a strong wisdom bonus and is a freaking cleric with more buffs than most characters have hit points, but I digress), then the cleric is going to have to start passing notes to the wizard to communicate his thoughts, or (for expediency's sake) just voice out his thoughts as one would do a monologue. This is not a good thing to spring upon a player unprepared.

If you want a way to prevent this, you want Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm), which is like Undetectable Alignment on steroids. There's a ring, I believe, that duplicates this effect if Trickery isn't in your cleric's chosen domains.

[Draig]

[Edit]: Does your wizard have any reason to suspect the cleric is evil, other than that you know it as a fact since you're the DM?

Exactly what i was about to say. If a pc is only trying to detect a players alignment because the PLAYER knows he is evil and has no character motivation or reason to suspect it then that is an OOC issue being focused through the character. Id start by asking the player why he wants to cast detect thoughts on his party member. If his only reason is "To prove he is evil" or "To see his alignment" and he has no Character reason, id stop it.

HOWEVER, if his character is just a paranoid person who needs to know if a person is doing evil deeds then could be some good RP.

[Draig]

(for expediency's sake) just voice out his thoughts as one would do a monologue. This is not a good thing to spring upon a player unprepared.


I once made a very dramatic Bard that would constantly bust into monologues. Depending on the voice though let the party know if it was being said in character or in my characters head. For some reason my sneak attacks never had the effect on the party that i wanted...it was like they KNEW it was coming.

[Godskook]

Detect thoughts would not reveal alignment, but would reveal alignment divulging thoughts, if your cleric is having any at the given moment. However, since most thoughts fall within a neutral-ish area(basically, any thought an animal has can't be judged too harshly on the alignment scale, cause animals are all TN), this would be incredibly hard to accomplish.

Passing a will save gives a tangible sensation to the target, and thus, if your cleric passes a save against detect thoughts, he's entitled to know that he just made a save(but not against what in particular he just saved against). The cleric can also tell if the wizard is casting detect thoughts around him, and would know to start wearing a lead-lined helmet. Actually, if your cleric wears armor, he probably has a helmet to it(check the PHB or SRD), and if so, that might negate detect thoughts, as it only takes 1in of metal to defeat.

I would have all your PCs write down their top-20 surface thoughts while "with the party", without telling any of them what it is for. Actually, tell them it is a roleplaying exercise to help them get into character. They should include both mundane and grandiose thoughts on the list, such as sleep, food, sex, and taking over the world. Make sure there's at least one damning thought on the Cleric's mind, and assign each thought a number on a d20 roll. Then roll a d20 each time the wizard casts detect thoughts, and if the cleric fails his save, give that thought to the wizard.

[ericgrau]

Why not cast detect evil/good/chaos/law?

[Draig]

I would have all your PCs write down their top-20 surface thoughts while "with the party", without telling any of them what it is for. Actually, tell them it is a roleplaying exercise to help them get into character. They should include both mundane and grandiose thoughts on the list, such as sleep, food, sex, and taking over the world. Make sure there's at least one damning thought on the Cleric's mind, and assign each thought a number on a d20 roll. Then roll a d20 each time the wizard casts detect thoughts, and if the cleric fails his save, give that thought to the wizard.

I dont think that would be such a good thing for the wizard to use as proof though. It IS possible to have bad thoughts and not be bad yourself. Ive had CG characters in my parties that have had the occasional "Man if i could rule this world" thoughts. Likewise if the wizard calls him on it the cleric could just go with the defense of "It was just a thought"

[Shadowknight12]

I once made a very dramatic Bard that would constantly bust into monologues. Depending on the voice though let the party know if it was being said in character or in my characters head. For some reason my sneak attacks never had the effect on the party that i wanted...it was like they KNEW it was coming.

Pelor above, I verily wonder why.:smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Why not cast detect evil/good/chaos/law?Because those don't show anything.

[Draig]

Why not cast detect evil/good/chaos/law?

OP stated that the cleric casts Undetectable alignment on himself every morning.

[Yora]

Reading thought to discern alignment might also lead to hilariously false conclusions.
During a meeting with very anoying nobles, a character might think about boiling the whole nobility alive and throwing that annoying brat of the princess right in with the rest. However the character is lawful good and never had any intention to go through with anything like this.
Or you have one character who is outraged about some thugs threatening a young woman and about to cut off some hands to put an end to their bullying. Which might seem heroic, but the person is actually offended by a dwarf and a half-orc daring to speak to a human and about to make an example of them to show all sub-humans that any attempt to despoil the purity of the human race will have dire consequences. If the woman was an elf, he wouldn't care a bit if she's murdered.

[ericgrau]

What's more is most evil people don't think to themself "I'm captain evil, what babies can I steal candy from today?" They more likely have their own personal goals and justifications for them, perhaps even noble-sounding and high-minded.


OP stated that the cleric casts Undetectable alignment on himself every morning.

Oops lol.

[Zylle]

Thanks for all the input everyone! :) I reminded the wizard that as far as his character knows, the only thing the cleric is guilty of is being greedy with the loot, and being generally abrasive. If it does come to the point where the wizard has enough in-character doubts to use detect thoughts, I liked Godskook's idea about having him roll a d20 to see if he actually picks up anything incriminating. I agree that it's very unlikely that our cleric would be thinking about eating babies in a given moment, but our wizard is a bit of a argumentative sort. However, I think that I can now offer him a compelling argument for the way the spell works. Thanks again! :)

[PirateLizard]

Wizard stares at Cleric.
Cleric thinks: lol you idiot you're trying to read my mind, aren't you? You silly frump.
gg. :smallfurious:

[NNescio]

I suggest the "Pink Elephants" method.

AKA "I know your darkest secret" bluff, which, well, usually makes people think of their darkest secret.

It's not foolproof though, especially if they know you have Detect Thoughts running, and you'll probably need a bluff check.

[Honest Tiefling]

I wonder if the cleric has spellcraft...And knows what the wizard's mother/father looks like. Just saying! Might be a handy defense.

[ZevTheStray]

*the wizard in question*
I was generally aware of the limitations of the spell, in that I wouldn't be able to detect his alignment right off. If I had any reason to suspect him of anything greater than the greed and general shadiness that he [the cleric] had been showing me, I would hope for a lucky glimpse into his mind. I think I would feel just a bit cheesy going with the "pink elephant" method, but I see that advise pop up every time a question about this spell is brought up. :smalltongue:

[Zylle]

Uh... clearly a different wizard. *cough*

[ericgrau]

Hmmm the other things is that the wizard must chant some funny sounding words, make some weird gestures, then stare at the cleric for a solid 12-18 seconds before reading his mind. He might only get "Uh, what are you trying to do to me."

[deuxhero]

Does the wizard PC know about the constant casting of undetectable alignment? Has he failed to ding detect good?


Yeah surface thoughts won't get anything beyond base lusts, food, comments on the current situation and "Is the wizard is trying to read my mind? What an *******!".

[myancey]

You should just make sure the party writes notes.

When I DM, I advise my players to regularly write notes to me (notes other players can see being passed but are unable to read). These notes might only say "Hey", or they might be detailing the action of a secret evil player in a group of good guys. Plus, it can be great for character development.

So the wizard can write that he casts this, and if the bad guy thinks bad thoughts during the duration of the spell--then you've got it.

[Elric VIII]

Why is the Cleric casting Undetectable Alignment when all of the alignment detecting spells are Cleric-only?

Depending on thier level, the domains chosen, and resources available it might be interesting to have the Cleric get a Contingency that zaps anyone trying to scry, detect, and/or spy on them magically.

[myancey]

Why is the Cleric casting Undetectable Alignment when all of the alignment detecting spells are Cleric-only?


There's nothing wrong with being prepared. You survive a lot longer in a good aligned party that way.

[Fitz10019]

... it only takes 1in of metal to defeat.

You know that'd be an inch thick, right? A standard helm would not be an inch thick. Unless we're talking about the Juggernaut!

[Telonius]

You know that'd be an inch thick, right? A standard helm would not be an inch thick. Unless we're talking about the Juggernaut!

You know, I never thought about that too hard ... would this mean that Warforged are actually immune to Detect Thoughts and Alignment?

[Shadowknight12]

You know, I never thought about that too hard ... would this mean that Warforged are actually immune to Detect Thoughts and Alignment?

Not specifically stated in the rules, so DM fiat. By RAW, not necessarily.

[Draig]

Not specifically stated in the rules, so DM fiat. By RAW, not necessarily.

Unless of course it was a Lead Warforged... then it possibly would be better at defeating said Detect spells.

[Shadowknight12]

Unless of course it was a Lead Warforged... then it possibly would be better at defeating said Detect spells.

The problem is that the lead has to be blocking the object to be read. In this case, how do you know that the warforged's mind is on the inside of his body? For all you know, it could be floating around him, like an ethereal satellite. Or it could be an aura around his person. Or it could suffuse every bit of metal that makes him up, regardless of its composition.

In short, you can't be sure that the warforged's mind is truly in his pseudo-cranial cavity, which is why he could be made of solid lead and the DM would still have to figure out if his mind can be read or not.