Bleach IV: Swords, Stains & Donuts (Problem, Ichigo?)

[Trixie]

This is where you talk about them buns... and donuts. Especially Orihime's.

Happened since last thread: not much :P

[Drolyt]

This is where you talk about them buns... and donuts. Especially Orihime's.

Happened since last thread: not much :P
Well, you did make the new thread in between chapters...

[BlackDragonKing]

Happened since last thread: not much :P

Welcome to Bleach. :smallwink:

[Lurkmoar]

Welcome to Bleach. :smallwink:

Hur hur hur.

Any overall comments about current Lost Deputy Arc? It reminds me of the Bount Filler Arc a bit.

[Drolyt]

Hur hur hur.

Any overall comments about current Lost Deputy Arc? It reminds me of the Bount Filler Arc a bit.
Every arc reminds me of every other arc. It's called Bleach.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm?

I thought there were more votes for Swords and logic?

[Trixie]

Hmm?

I thought there were more votes for Swords and logic?

Theoretically, but there were also 3 votes extremely against that. Even by subtraction, it brought it to the level of other proposals.

...Maybe we should just wait for most memorable quote of Fauxzen from new Chapter? :smalltongue:

[Drolyt]

Theoretically, but there were also 3 votes extremely against that. Even by subtraction, it brought it to the level of other proposals.

...Maybe we should just wait for most memorable quote of Fauxzen from new Chapter? :smalltongue:
There's a limit to how long you can wait before changing the title, though I'm not sure what it is. Regardless, Swords > Logic may have been controversial, but I don't remember anyone voting for Swords, Stains, & Donuts.

[Turalisj]

So.... just tagging the thread.

[Trixie]

There's a limit to how long you can wait before changing the title, though I'm not sure what it is. Regardless, Swords > Logic may have been controversial, but I don't remember anyone voting for Swords, Stains, & Donuts.

31 days.

And I remember one vote, of a person very important to me ;P

[MammonAzrael]

I'm not sure if I can vote on my own suggestions, but Bleach IV: Fullbring for that extra whitening power! works for me. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

Honestly I don't care what the name is and am even content to let it stay as-is, simply because Bleach itself is so blah right now the thread may as well be too.

That the ONE thing in this bloody arc I actually care about - namely Isshin - is getting so little screentime is only more irritating.

So cast my vote for "wait for a good quote in the next month or so then rename."


This is where you talk about them buns... and donuts. Especially Orihime's.

Happened since last thread: not much :P


Welcome to Bleach. :smallwink:

Summed up by this exchange.

[Mystic Muse]

This is where you talk about them buns... and donuts. Especially Orihime's.


Hurr Hurr Hurr?

[VanBuren]

Consider Ichigo's Fullbring... Fullbrought.

Go Go Power Rangers!

[Psyren]

Huh. I guess the donuts title isn't so out of place after all.

...Ichigo, that outfit looks ridiculous.

Oh hai Tsukishima! Can I get you anything? Since you know where my sisters live and all.

[Mystic Muse]

Yay! Star wars ripoff!:smallsigh:

Okay, maybe that's going a little far, but that's what I thought upon seeing this chapter.

[Turalisj]

You mighty morphin' shinigami rangers....

Considering that Ichigo is voiced by a former power ranger, it isn't too out of place XD

[Trixie]

Sooo... More donuts! :smallbiggrin:

Also, another two Fullbring uses that are >>> Aizen? :smalltongue:

[Fjolnir]

gotta love the Herp-a-derp of forgetting he's related to the main villian of the arc...

[Trixie]

gotta love the Herp-a-derp of forgetting he's related to the main villian of the arc...

...IMHO, that's one usage of his Fullbring.

But yes, if he simply forgot, I'll execute more facehoofs than this manga has chapters :smalltongue:

[Xondoure]

gotta love the Herp-a-derp of forgetting he's related to the main villian of the arc...

Think that was a mindscrew...

Wow that outfit looks dumb. I can kinda see it looking better with a shinigami cloak though.

[Mando Knight]

Think that was a mindscrew...

Yeah, I thought it as "Oh, shoot. Characters with insufficient training can't fight off the guy's fullbring."

[Fjolnir]

His fullbring looks very similar to his hollow form in the Ulquiorra fight, it only really lacks the mask and hole...

I wouldn't put it past it to be some sort of Fullbring mind trick but "long lost cousin" is also quite possible.

[VanBuren]

gotta love the Herp-a-derp of forgetting he's related to the main villian of the arc...

Well, it was a long time ago for one thing so he might not have remembered what the guy looked like/he's changed a lot since then. He was pretty pissed when they fought too, so he might not have had the presence of mind to think about the relationship.

Of course, he messed with Orihime's mind with his Fullbring, so I'm not convinced that he actually is related to Ichigo.

[Drolyt]

So either the bad guy is Ichigo's cousin, or he has the ability to make his sisters think he is, either through his powers or perhaps through mundane means. I don't find it hard to imagine that Ichigo didn't recognize a cousin he hasn't seen in years, and I highly doubt he could be using any powers to mess with their minds, since Isshin would notice that, but if he used more mundane means to fake the relationship (yeah, I'm your cousin, you remember me, no I totally didn't kidnap your real cousin and torture all kinds of information out of him so I could pretend to be him) Isshin might not notice.

[Julian84]

It's been a long, hard road... Full of... disappointments. Pitfalls. But now I'm ready to say it.

I. Like. Bleach. Again.

I actually think the fullbring looks cool (though i'm tired of all the transcendence crap ¬_¬), if Tsukashima is actually his cousin I'm down with that, heck, I actually like some of the other fullbringers! (bad guy included)

I had my doubts about this arc (dirty boots? what?), but I'm pretty sure this is Kubo actually making some good decisions. I hope I'm not disappointed/

[Thrawn183]

I also like the look of the fullbring. I like it a lot actually.

[Fiery Diamond]

Well, just read the new chapter. Thoughts:

1) MOAR DONUTS!
2) Nice outfit. Reminds me of his hollow form. Personally, I think he deserved a change to something more distinct than his normal shinigami form. Who wants to bet that this "completed" form is going to continue to change, though?
3) I have more suspicions that Ichigo's dad is involved somehow - they have similar Zanpakuto and Ginjo's comment... hmm....
4) :smallsigh: More "you spent eons training but it only took a couple hours in reality."
5) Ichigo Fullbring+Shinigami+Hollow > Shinigami... wasn't Ichigo Shinigami+Hollow ALREADY > Shinigami? Wasn't that the whole point of the Ichigo and Aizen thing?
6) Tsukushima... did he use his all mysterious power to alter the girls' memories? (Highly Probable) Did he fake it somehow else? (Probable) Is he really Ichigo's cousin? (Improbable)

[Lurkmoar]

I want more Isshin too.

[Trixie]

So, seems like my Swords, Stains & Donuts was indeed prophetic when it came to the new chapter :P

...And yes, main character actually wearing some kind of armor does look nice.

[Frozen_Feet]

5) Ichigo Fullbring+Shinigami+Hollow > Shinigami... wasn't Ichigo Shinigami+Hollow ALREADY > Shinigami? Wasn't that the whole point of the Ichigo and Aizen thing?


Yes... but how much does Ginjo know about that? When I was looking at Ichigo's face in the chapter, I was getting strong "yeah, yeah, heard this all before" vibe from him.

It's the same thing as priorly - this isn't the first time Ichigo's done "train or die" exercise routine, he already has more combat experience than most of the Fullbringers, so he was peeved when they acted like he was a total newbie. Ginjo might be acting like it's big news, because thinks it's big news, even if it isn't to Ichigo, who's been there and done that.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I'm really hoping that the bad guy doesn't have mindscrew powers, but Orihime's non-fatal-stab-in-the-chest experience would suggest something of the sort. Sigh. That's old hat.

An extended family of spiritually aware people seems like an interesting angle. Perhaps the bookmark guy has some kind of offer for Ichigo. He did say something about "corrupting" him in the last fight. And so far we only have Ginjo's word to go by regarding everything fullbring related. Wouldn't be the first time a mentor of Ichigo neglected some details...

[Psyren]

Don't forget that he not-stabbed Chad off-camera as well. (lol.)

Tsukishima's sword is so sharp, he can cut his way into your family.
Bleach is the power of SWORD taken to its ultimate conclusion.

[MammonAzrael]

One thing I noticed and appreciated about Ichigo's newest sword is that it once again doesn't really have a guard. Not as crazy as his meat cleaver shikai, but still.

Honestly, I like the armor, but kinda miss the mask. It wouldn't surprise me if we got a mask/helmet hybrid to complete the armor when he enters battle.

I'm guessing Tsukishima is using his mysterious powers, and isn't an actually relative...though it would be a bit funny if true. potentially idiotic too.

[Drolyt]

I'm guessing Tsukishima is using his mysterious powers, and isn't an actually relative...though it would be a bit funny if true. potentially idiotic too.
Don't forget he could be tricking them without using powers. It wouldn't be very Kubo, but he could.

[Psyren]

Don't forget he could be tricking them without using powers. It wouldn't be very Kubo, but he could.

He could easily fool Yuzu that way, but no way he'd pull one over on Karin without some mindscrew. (Of course, she may not be home yet...)

[Fiery Diamond]

He could easily fool Yuzu that way, but no way he'd pull one over on Karin without some mindscrew. (Of course, she may not be home yet...)

Hm... you make a good point. Karin would be a LOT harder to fool by mundane means.

[BlackDragonKing]

...You know, I was always expecting Ichigo to come home one day and find his archenemy crashing on his couch like he had every right in the world to be there. I always thought it would be Grimmjow.

That panel...just beautiful. It is the ultimate troll smile. Aizen WISHES he could convey "Problem, hero?" that well with just a smile. Izaya dreams he could have a smirk that trollin'. Mayuri is most likely jelly as hell, watching this through the camera bacteria Ichigo is no doubt covered in because he and Mayuri were in the same room once.

Tsukishima has two Fullbrings. Book of The End is his fighting power. ENGAGE MAXIMUM TROLLING is his everything else power. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

That panel...just beautiful. It is the ultimate troll smile. Aizen WISHES he could convey "Problem, hero?" that well with just a smile. Izaya dreams he could have a smirk that trollin'. Mayuri is most likely jelly as hell, watching this through the camera bacteria Ichigo is no doubt covered in because he and Mayuri were in the same room once.

Tsukishima has two Fullbrings. Book of The End is his fighting power. ENGAGE MAXIMUM TROLLING is his everything else power. :smalltongue:

He's got the smirk down, but suspenders? Really? I would laugh him out of my house.

[Fiery Diamond]

He's got the smirk down, but suspenders? Really? I would laugh him out of my house.

But suspenders have been standard villain attire all the way since Elmer Fudd, haven't they? :smallconfused::smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[Areswargod139]

But suspenders have been standard villain attire all the way since Elmer Fudd, haven't they? :smallconfused::smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Elmer Fudd is a victim, not a villain, lol.

As long as they keep the power level down like they have been doing, I'm more okay with Bleach than I was before.

As for the archvillain's power, I suspect he can cut through anything, even esoteric things like memory. It's like Kuwabara's (YuYu Hakusho) Jigen Tou on steroids.

[Drolyt]

But suspenders have been standard villain attire all the way since Elmer Fudd, haven't they? :smallconfused::smallwink::smallbiggrin:
Elmer Fudd wasn't a villain. The only way you could come to that conclusion is if you are of the mindset that every show must have a villain, and even then there's no reason to suppose Bugs isn't the villain, I mean he's some kind of mutant walking talking rabbit thing that eats carrots and says "what's up, doc?".

As for the archvillain's power, I suspect he can cut through anything, even esoteric things like memory. It's like Kuwabara's (YuYu Hakusho) Jigen Tou on steroids.
Except Kuwabara is awesome, and Jigen Tou served an important plot purpose in a storyline that wasn't cliche and repetitive.

[VanBuren]

Elmer Fudd wasn't a villain. The only way you could come to that conclusion is if you are of the mindset that every show must have a villain, and even then there's no reason to suppose Bugs isn't the villain, I mean he's some kind of mutant walking talking rabbit thing that eats carrots and says "what's up, doc?".

Except Kuwabara is awesome, and Jigen Tou served an important plot purpose in a storyline that wasn't cliche and repetitive.

He's trying to murder a sapient rabbit. Of course he's the villain.

[Psyren]

Elmer Fudd wasn't a villain. The only way you could come to that conclusion is if you are of the mindset that every show must have a villain, and even then there's no reason to suppose Bugs isn't the villain, I mean he's some kind of mutant walking talking rabbit thing that eats carrots and says "what's up, doc?".

At the risk of derailing the thread, seeking to murder a sapient creature is generally considered evil, even if they're supposedly in season.

About the only LT antagonist who gets a morality pass is the Tasmanian Devil (and possibly Sylvester). Fudd, Marvin and Sam are definitely villains.

(ninja'ed by VB)

[Frozen_Feet]

Considering what sort of tortures the rabbit puts everyone through, it must clearly be the Devil! Clearly, Elmer is justified in trying to rid the world of such sadistic abomination. :smallcool:

[Turalisj]

Except Kuwabara is awesome, and Jigen Tou served an important plot purpose in a storyline that wasn't cliche and repetitive.

It was BEFORE the idea of a special sword and it's wielder became cliche and repetitive!

[Lurkmoar]

Considering what sort of tortures the rabbit puts everyone through, it must clearly be the Devil! Clearly, Elmer is justified in trying to rid the world of such sadistic abomination. :smallcool:

Elmer is usually the one that starts the hunting, thus the karmic comeuppance. Bugs still seems like a **** a fair amount of the time though.

Back to Bleach... awesome troll at the end. Wondering what Ichigo will do now.

[Turalisj]

The result can only be the following scene:

Ichigo looks to Tsukishima, then to Yuzu and back to Tsukishima.

Ichigo: **** it, I'm going to get a drink.

Ichigo promptly leaves.

[Psyren]

Considering what sort of tortures the rabbit puts everyone through, it must clearly be the Devil! Clearly, Elmer is justified in trying to rid the world of such sadistic abomination. :smallcool:

Bugs is definitely a sadist, I agree. But he never comes out of his hole one day and says "You know what? I'm gonna head to the suburbs and screw with that bald guy" :smalltongue:

(I know you weren't serious, just saying)


The result can only be the following scene:

Ichigo looks to Tsukishima, then to Yuzu and back to Tsukishima.

Ichigo: **** it, I'm going to get a drink.

Ichigo promptly leaves.

Nah, he's going to fly off the handle and promptly get slapped down; either literally with a show of force, or mentally when Fauxzen makes an off-handed comment about how easily he could behead Yuzu without adusting his posture on the sofa.

[Drolyt]

It was BEFORE the idea of a special sword and it's wielder became cliche and repetitive!
Well, I'm pretty sure Excalibur and Durandel and Balmung and all the others disagree, but the point still stands, YYH was way more original than Bleach. Of course, original isn't the end all be all, but still.
Edit: I know you are being sarcastic, but I'm not sure how to respond except literally.

[Turalisj]

Nah, he's going to fly off the handle and promptly get slapped down; either literally with a show of force, or mentally when Fauxzen makes an off-handed comment about how easily he could behead Yuzu without adusting his posture on the sofa.

But I like my idea that he just get's sick and tired of people screwing with him.

[VanBuren]

Well, I'm pretty sure Excalibur and Durandel and Balmung and all the others disagree, but the point still stands, YYH was way more original than Bleach. Of course, original isn't the end all be all, but still.
Edit: I know you are being sarcastic, but I'm not sure how to respond except literally.

I liked YYH better when it was called Dragonball.

I'll just leave that there. :smallbiggrin:

[Turalisj]

I liked Dragonball better when it was called Journey to the West :smallwink:

[VanBuren]

I liked Dragonball better when it was called Journey to the West :smallwink:

ONOUDIDNT!

Well, I liked Journey to the West better when it was called The Epic of Gilgamesh.

[Drolyt]

I liked YYH better when it was called Dragonball.

I'll just leave that there. :smallbiggrin:
That was a funny joke when team four star (I think that was who it was?) made it, but it isn't really true. The two manga were coming out concurrently. Dragonball had already been out for a few years when Yu Yu Hakusho started, but it had just gotten into the Z storyline like a year earlier, and YYH ended before Dragonball did.

[MammonAzrael]

But I like my idea that he just get's sick and tired of people screwing with him.

Entertaining, but I think I'd like it more if Ichigo just went with it.

Ichigo: This crazy dude again? He attacked me and my friends and is all mysterious, and now he's in my house, saying we're related? You know what? Fine. "Hey cousin! Nice to see you! How've you been?"

Plops down on the couch and engages in small talk with old relative, perhaps offering snacks.

[Psyren]

"Go with it" is actually an avenue I haven't considered. He might very well play along, if only to keep Yuzu from getting frightened. Plus, Fauxzen clearly wants something from him if he's sitting out on the couch like he owns the place.

[Fjolnir]

with all his supposed mind control powers he COULD own the place...:smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

with all his supposed mind control powers he COULD own the place...:smallbiggrin:

He could probably cut his way into their mortgage agreement :-|

[VanBuren]

"Go with it" is actually an avenue I haven't considered. He might very well play along, if only to keep Yuzu from getting frightened. Plus, Fauxzen clearly wants something from him if he's sitting out on the couch like he owns the place.

We need to standardize terms. "Fauxzen" was originally coined as another nickname for Ramen Guy.

Granted, I agree that "Fauxzen" is no longer a fitting title for the guy helping him and a far more fitting title for the guy trolling him, but in respect for the English language thread I feel the need to ask if we all agree on the definition shift.

[Psyren]

We need to standardize terms. "Fauxzen" was originally coined as another nickname for Ramen Guy.

Granted, I agree that "Fauxzen" is no longer a fitting title for the guy helping him and a far more fitting title for the guy trolling him, but in respect for the English language thread I feel the need to ask if we all agree on the definition shift.

When I use it, I'm referring to the arc bad. There, that should clear things up.

(Plus, I'm simply not typing out "Tsukishima" every time I want to refer to him.)

[Trixie]

Perhaps you should type 'Bane of the Russian Fleet' instead :P

[Private-Prinny]

New chapter out.






Am I the only one who finds Tsukishima's tactics even more outright scary than anyone else in this series so far? He has the power of sword, but he's playing the long game here. He's taken everyone close to Ichigo, all of his friends and allies, and turned them against him. He is completely ostracized, has no support, and everyone that he thought he could count on thinks that his enemy is their best friend. He can't do a thing to Tsukishima without everyone thinking he's gone insane. And the entire time, Tsukishima keeps his cool, calm smile, as if he's known these people his entire life. And as far as they know, he has. It's just plain creepy.

Bleach might finally kick things up a gear again. This has some promise.

[Trixie]

Huh, Ikumi shows up again! :smallbiggrin:

...ok, this is interesting, though, I hoped Ichigo would sit and talk, or at least ask Fauxzen to step outside to talk.

This tactic is double edged, actually - Ichigo can't attack him openly, but so can't Fauxzen, right?

[Drolyt]

Wow. I mean, I knew it was probably some kind of mind control, but I kept trying to come up with alternative theories because that would be, well, lame. But Kubo surprised me, this was actually a great chapter. I wonder where Isshin is though? And Urahura and his gang? I doubt Ryuuken would be affected either, but I'm not sure about Ishida, Chad, and Orihime, he made it sound like they were affected.

[Mystic Muse]

And this is where I abandon Bleach. Bye everybody!

[Psyren]

Tsukishima is pretty much Aizen at this point.



Nah, he's going to fly off the handle and promptly get slapped down; either literally with a show of force, or mentally when Fauxzen makes an off-handed comment about how easily he could behead Yuzu without adusting his posture on the sofa.

I was half-right. He flew off the handle, but then kept going. Kid doesn't think things through.


Also, LOL at omnipotent game kid and omnipotent dollhouse girl getting owned off-camera. (Assuming Ginjou isn't lying.)

[Trixie]

...That reminds me:

After this, I wonder how anyone can now say with straight face that Fullbrings aren't >>> Aizen :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

...That reminds me:

After this, I wonder how anyone can now say with straight face that Fullbrings aren't >>> Aizen :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Fullbrings aren't >>> Aizen. :-|

[Prime32]

Also, LOL at omnipotent game kid and omnipotent dollhouse girl getting owned off-camera. (Assuming Ginjou isn't lying.)Why would Tsukishima own them? Tsukishima's a swell guy. :smallconfused:

[Drolyt]

...That reminds me:

After this, I wonder how anyone can now say with straight face that Fullbrings aren't >>> Aizen :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
Quite easily. Fullbrings obviously don't work on people with high spiritual power, which is why Tsukishima didn't just mind rape Ichigo and Ginjo, they are too powerful. Aizen's illusions worked on everyone, even Yama.

[Psyren]

Why would Tsukishima own them? Tsukishima's a swell guy. :smallconfused:

Oh god, he got you too!

(in case you're being serious, reread page 20)

[Vonotar]

I'm not entirely sure, but am I seeing a reasonably competent villain in Bleach?

[Psyren]

I'm not entirely sure, but am I seeing a reasonably competent villain in Bleach?

Don't read too much into it... Aizen started competent too.

(The Rescue Arc was unleaded brilliance.)

[Trixie]

Quite easily. Fullbrings obviously don't work on people with high spiritual power, which is why Tsukishima didn't just mind rape Ichigo and Ginjo, they are too powerful.

...we don't know that yet :smallamused:

For all we know, Ginjo is the only one he got, and Ginjo is lying.

Also, Urahara/Ichigo's dad? Since when you were under impression he haven't got them, too? :smallamused::smalltongue:

[Private-Prinny]

For all we know, Ginjo is the only one he got, and Ginjo is lying.

I like the thought of this. I hope you're right.

[Psyren]

Also, Urahara/Ichigo's dad? Since when you were under impression he haven't got them, too? :smallamused::smalltongue:

If he took out Urahara and Isshin off-camera then I am officially done with Bleach.


I like the thought of this. I hope you're right.

I planted that epileptic tree first, I'll have you know :-P

[Drolyt]

If he took out Urahara and Isshin off-camera then I am officially done with Bleach.
Agreed. That would be the ultimate in bad storytelling.

[Turalisj]

Nah, he's going to fly off the handle and promptly get slapped down; either literally with a show of force, or mentally when Fauxzen makes an off-handed comment about how easily he could behead Yuzu without adusting his posture on the sofa.

Psyren wins an internets :smalltongue:

[Xondoure]

I wouldn't be surprised if all the fullbrings had already been zapped during their last confrontation with him. Pre Ichigo.

[Frozen_Feet]

Oh noes Ichigo! It's the invasion of body-snatchers!

Really, I think the funniest thing in this all might be that... Ichigo's over-reacting. Tsukihima might have made all his friends his friends as well, but from what we've seen, they only act like they do towards Ichigo because Ichigo's giving them reason to.

If he'd calmed down - taken a deep breath, asked what was going, then maybe - maybe they had listened to him.

[Dvandemon]

New chapter out.

Am I the only one who finds Tsukishima's tactics even more outright scary than anyone else in this series so far? He has the power of sword, but he's playing the long game here. He's taken everyone close to Ichigo, all of his friends and allies, and turned them against him. He is completely ostracized, has no support, and everyone that he thought he could count on thinks that his enemy is their best friend. He can't do a thing to Tsukishima without everyone thinking he's gone insane. And the entire time, Tsukishima keeps his cool, calm smile, as if he's known these people his entire life. And as far as they know, he has. It's just plain creepy.

Bleach might finally kick things up a gear again. This has some promise.

I now I was seriously disturbed by it. Virtually everyone shows up to show they all think Tsukishima is their friend. If I were in that situation I would be completely crushed. Ichigo's actions are practically half a mind of what I would do.

[Psyren]

If he'd calmed down - taken a deep breath, asked what was going, then maybe - maybe they had listened to him.

Or better yet, listen to the villain, who clearly went to all this trouble to infiltrate his inner circle to offer him a deal of some kind.

Instead he runs off and leaves his family and friends in the hands of, for all he knows, an insanely powerful mass-murderer.

By the way, can anyone tell me where the hell this (http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m633/PsyrenY/_manga_rain_bleach_ch095_13.jpg?t=1308790905) Ichigo went and why Kubo seems to have forgotten he existed?

[Turalisj]

Clearly, Ichigo cannot fight effectively without one of his (female) friends being put in mortal danger.

But because none of his friends are in direct clear danger, he doesn't have them to act as a beacon.

I know what you're think "but they're in danger right now". No, not entirely.

The second Tsukishima actually, physically makes one of his (female) friends bleed, it will push Ichigo over the edge and he'll become some odd fullbring+soul reaper+hollow combination.

Anyone remember Rukia?

[Frozen_Feet]

Actually, that's easy to answer. He was pummeled by this guy some call Hichigo, others, Shiroshaki. Then he got a hole shot through him by this guy called Ulquiorra. Twice. Only coming back wrong, without recollection of the event.

It almost looked like he came back to fight this guy called Aizen (I hear he was pretty strong), but I guess two years without his powers, wallowing in depression, kinda left a mark...

[Fan]

Clearly, Ichigo cannot fight effectively without one of his (female) friends being put in mortal danger.

But because none of his friends are in direct clear danger, he doesn't have them to act as a beacon.

I know what you're think "but they're in danger right now". No, not entirely.

The second Tsukishima actually, physically makes one of his (female) friends bleed, it will push Ichigo over the edge and he'll become some odd fullbring+soul reaper+hollow combination.

Anyone remember Rukia?

I don't often post here, but I shall for the sake of this question.

Who are you talking about?

[BlackDragonKing]

Chapter read.

...OK, I gotta admit, this has got to be the funniest chapter Kubo's ever written. I take it back, he CAN write humor that's not incredibly awkward and forced.

Hopefully that was intentional, and I didn't bust a gut laughing at what was probably supposed to be a tense and creepy chapter.

Captain Tsukushima? You have the helm.

ENGAGE MAXIMUM TROLLING.

[Fiery Diamond]

Actually, that's easy to answer. He was pummeled by this guy some call Hichigo, others, Shiroshaki. Then he got a hole shot through him by this guy called Ulquiorra. Twice. Only coming back wrong, without recollection of the event.

It almost looked like he came back to fight this guy called Aizen (I hear he was pretty strong), but I guess two years without his powers, wallowing in depression, kinda left a mark...

This. It's perfectly understandable that Ichigo is responding as he is right now. Besides: he's not scared of Tsukishima's physical fighting power - at ALL. He's terrified of the mindscrew that his enemy has pulled on everyone close to him. If Fauxzen (now officially Tsukishima rather than Ginjo) was just physically threatening people, Ichigo would go into determinator mode, probably. But he can't respond with force to his enemy in the current situation because it makes his friends think he's gone crazy. He's ostracized, all allies and avenues of hope cut off from him. I found what Fauxzen did to be really scary, much more scary than any other villain in this series by far.

At this point, his only hope as far as allies and support go are the following: Orihime (whom the Bad is surprised managed to resist his power, as you can tell by his actions on the phone), Chad (who was perfectly aware of being stabbed and seemed to be clear-headed and uneasy, indicating he resisted it as well), Ishida (who was physically assaulted rather than Friend-stabbed), Ginjo (whom we don't know for sure is trustworthy), Isshin (who is who knows where doing who knows what), and Urahara (who is who knows where doing who knows what). ALL mundanes and low-power spiritually aware people that surround Ichigo, so far as he's aware, are in the palm of the Bad's hand.

Edited to respond to someone who posted while I was typing:


Chapter read.

...OK, I gotta admit, this has got to be the funniest chapter Kubo's ever written. I take it back, he CAN write humor that's not incredibly awkward and forced.

Hopefully that was intentional, and I didn't bust a gut laughing at what was probably supposed to be a tense and creepy chapter.

Captain Tsukushima? You have the helm.

ENGAGE MAXIMUM TROLLING.

??? I'm not sure why you found this funny and thought it was intentional humor. It IS a creepy chapter. Mindrape is not a "funny" concept, it's an inherently scary one.

[The Librarian]

Holy Crap! The Big Bads power is freaking terrifying.

[Xondoure]

I'm not sure if Chad and Orihime really did resist, or he just hadn't pulled on his power yet.

Personally I'm waiting for Rukia to show up.

[BlackDragonKing]

??? I'm not sure why you found this funny and thought it was intentional humor. It IS a creepy chapter. Mindrape is not a "funny" concept, it's an inherently scary one.

Part of it is that I stopped taking Bleach seriously sometime around Fake Karakura Town, but a big part is that Tsukishima falls into the same trap that Aizen did; his antics and mannerisms make the scenes where he's trying to be threatening accelerate so far over the line that they go from what is apparently supposed to be terrifying to hilarious. I'm sorry, but I just kept cracking up as the chapter consisted of Ichigo running around like a scared little bunny while the most mellow villain ever uses his memory powers to repeatedly troll him. It hits a level of glorious narm that made Aizen a terrible villain but comedic gold.

I still think the only genuinely scary villains in Bleach were Gin and Barragan, and both of them mitigated it a bit by getting all the best lines.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Part of it is that I stopped taking Bleach seriously sometime around Fake Karakura Town, but a big part is that Tsukishima falls into the same trap that Aizen did; his antics and mannerisms make the scenes where he's trying to be threatening accelerate so far over the line that they go from what is apparently supposed to be terrifying to hilarious. I'm sorry, but I just kept cracking up as the chapter consisted of Ichigo running around like a scared little bunny while the most mellow villain ever uses his memory powers to repeatedly troll him. It hits a level of glorious narm that made Aizen a terrible villain but comedic gold.

I still think the only genuinely scary villains in Bleach were Gin and Barragan, and both of them mitigated it a bit by getting all the best lines.

Really? Gin and Barragan? Okay, I can see Gin a little bit, but Barragan wasn't scary in the 'ooohhh, scary!' sense but rather a 'HAX!' sense.

Tsukishima does seem to fall between scary and funny for me too though. I mean, on the one hand he's proving remarkably effective and has turned Ichigo's friends and family practically into his own cult....on the other hand, he's mellow as hell and Ichigo (who fought freakin' Aizen) is running like a scared little bunny. There needs to be a new word for this. Scanny? Fury? Scarny? Scaryfunny?

EDIT: I do agree Tsukishima is trolling the crap out of Ichigo right now though. He couldn't get anymore smug without being an Uchiha-Aizen hybrid.....hold on a second...

[Psyren]

I'm not sure if Chad and Orihime really did resist, or he just hadn't pulled on his power yet.

Personally I'm waiting for Rukia to show up.

Oh god, I hope not. Once she shows up, so will SS, we'll have haoris everywhere and the Fullbringers will be thrown out of the story even more completely.

(More accurately, the only two fullbringers I give a crap about: Chad and Orihime.)


I still think the only genuinely scary villains in Bleach were Gin and Barragan, and both of them mitigated it a bit by getting all the best lines.

I found Wonderweiss way scarier than Barragan :smalltongue:

[Callos_DeTerran]

Oh god, I hope not. Once she shows up, so will SS, we'll have haoris everywhere and the Fullbringers will be thrown out of the story even more completely.

(More accurately, the only two fullbringers I give a crap about: Chad and Orihime.)

...As much as I want to see Chad and Orihime get some screen-time, I do like seeing the captains as well...and I want to know what the rest of their bankais are!

[VanBuren]

...As much as I want to see Chad and Orihime get some screen-time, I do like seeing the captains as well...and I want to know what the rest of their bankais are!

So two seasons ago. Nowadays you aren't anyone if you don't have a Banzard FullDangai to bring to the table.

[Dante & Vergil]

My only hope is that with Orihime's "We'll never fall behind" speach wasn't just for this arc, or for show for that matter, but for a long while after it.
With what Ginjou said to Ichigo about trancending Soul Reapers and from that time he heard Rukia's voice from his badge with something about "Ichigo would do that", what ever that ment at the time, this screams to me why Rukia was punished in the first place for giving Ichigo her powers, and thus why it is illegal to do so. I'll see if I can keep it simple.
Ginjou said that Ichigo's Fullbringing powers will merge with his Soul Reaper powers, making him transcend the powers of Soul Reapers, or something like that, which would make him stronger than most of the Captains in Soul Society (if not all of them), as he was already as strong or stronger than most of them by the time Ichigo fought Aizen for the last time.
Because of this, it's easy to see why the Central 46 would illegalize the bestowing of a person's Soul Reaper powers to a human, which creates a substitute incase that wasn't clear, as that would create being that could surpass the best defense Soul Society has (This does not include the King and his guards, as they are in a seperate demension and the King left the control of Soul Society for the rest of the Soul Reapers to decide).
With Ichigo hearing Rukia's voice and what she said, it implies that they know what Ichigo is doing, and what he's doing is very frowned upon and probably illegal, which makes me think that Soul Society will be coming to apprehend Ichigo after this arc is over or possibly even during this arc, but probably the former.
If any of this is true, Ichigo can't trust anyone from Soul Society on top of most of his friends as well as Urahara and Isshin, whatever the heck the two of them are planning. It looks like Ichigo's can only fully trust Ginjou because it seems that Orihime, and probably Chad, may have been fully had by Tsukishima's hidden power, by what this latest chapter implies. Ichigo, your life sucks hardcore!!

[Hadrian_Emrys]

...

It has been a LONG time since Bleach has actually inspired a reaction out of me that WASN'T something between agitation and rage. I've never been this amused by anything else Kubo's crapped out so far.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Nooooo why did it have to have to be mindscrew powers? Why couldn't it be telekinesis or firebreathing or the ability to turn farts into gold or something man

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Nooooo why did it have to have to be mindscrew powers? Why couldn't it be telekinesis or firebreathing or the ability to turn farts into gold or something man

Because none of those lame powers could accomplish the following:
http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac219/HennaHooves/Forum/Trollzen.jpg

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Because none of those lame powers could accomplish the following:


*spit-take*

[Psyren]

Because none of those lame powers could accomplish the following:
*snip*

...
*slow clap*

(problem Ichigo?)

[Lurkmoar]

Trolling... the ultimate power!

[Frozen_Feet]

....on the other hand, he's mellow as hell...

... now I'm imagining Tsukihima as perpetually stoned. Thank you.

[DiscipleofBob]

So I know the current manga has already moved on way past this, but something has still been bugging me. I apologize if this has already been asked.

Aizen, while not dead, has finally been defeated, stuck in prison that will hopefully stick for a good long while, got ridiculous hollow powers, and had to pull out all the stops to fight all of Soul Society and Ichigo.

And yet he STILL hasn't used Bankai. Seriously, there's "waiting for the right moment to pull out the big guns" and then there's "fight's over. stadium's empty. everyone went home. don't let the door hit you on the way out."

It's not just him, either. I think like half the captains haven't used Bankai despite almost completely screwing the pooch in the Fake Karakura town arc. Hell, we don't even know a lot of the lieutenants' Shikai abilities yet. Really, Kubo, I know you don't like to finish what you started [/zombie powder dig] but enough with the teasing. Even Urahara and Yoruichi should be capable of bankai and yet the latter hasn't even used Shikai. If nothing else, just tell us what the remaning Soul Society's abilities are in a Shinigami Golden Book or something.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Because none of those lame powers could accomplish the following:
http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac219/HennaHooves/Forum/Trollzen.jpg

It's been done. Not to Ichigo mind you, but admit it Hinamori's stabbing was Aizen's troll(?) against the captains. He could have killed them all without breaking the illusion.

Whatever the nature of Tsukishima's powers is, I hope that they're not defeated by the bad guy forgetting to use them.

[Frozen_Feet]

Which reminds me, Kageroza pulled a really nasty one on Shiro-chan. Forcing the poor guy to fight not one, but two Hinamoris?

That's it, from now on, I'm going to call Hitsugaya "World's most traumatized kid".

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Which reminds me, Kageroza pulled a really nasty one on Shiro-chan. Forcing the poor guy to fight not one, but two Hinamoris?

That's it, from now on, I'm going to call Hitsugaya "World's most traumatized kid".

I assume you're talking about the latest filler. We have Bleach on air but it's like 200 episodes behind. The Arrancar arc just started :smalleek:

[Turalisj]

... now I'm imagining Tsukihima as perpetually stoned. Thank you.

Tsukishima is Bleach-Universe's incarnation of Keith Richards?

[BlackDragonKing]

Really? Gin and Barragan? Okay, I can see Gin a little bit, but Barragan wasn't scary in the 'ooohhh, scary!' sense but rather a 'HAX!' sense.

For the most part, Barragan was intimidating by virtue of Respira having ****ing creepy effects when it hit the body. Using mental powers to troll is never going to be as scary as making the skin and muscle melt off of someone's arm by breathing in their direction and having the aging spread until the parts are cut off or the people literally rot to dust while still alive.

For the most part, though, Barragan was more memorable for being pure awesome instead of scary. He totally should've been the Big Bad if Gin wasn't stepping up.

Also, Gin's scarier than Aizen because you get the impression that Gin getting into your head isn't a smug little ego trip. Aizen's crippled by his need to go "ohoho, I'm so clever" to everyone and anyone he fights, and won't shut up at any cost. As such, when Aizen tries to do his lectures, it's a smug egotist yapping at you. Not intimidating. When Gin is messing with heroes, it was less "ha ha, funny trolling" or "look how much smarter I am than you" and more watching someone squirm a little before they died; unlike Aizen, you could actually believe Gin would follow through after he'd played around a little. Aizen was way too far up his own butt to ever get that kinda stuff done.


Tsukishima does seem to fall between scary and funny for me too though. I mean, on the one hand he's proving remarkably effective and has turned Ichigo's friends and family practically into his own cult....on the other hand, he's mellow as hell and Ichigo (who fought freakin' Aizen) is running like a scared little bunny. There needs to be a new word for this. Scanny? Fury? Scarny? Scaryfunny?

EDIT: I do agree Tsukishima is trolling the crap out of Ichigo right now though. He couldn't get anymore smug without being an Uchiha-Aizen hybrid.....hold on a second...

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb321/Generation_Zero/Lulz/7c0046489dd218f2af4cfc4421a5eecd.png

I think making this completely ruined any chance of me ever taking Tsukishima seriously, in retrospect.

[VanBuren]

...
*slow clap*

(problem Ichigo?)

We're four pages in and all, but maybe that should have been the title. :smalltongue:

[Callos_DeTerran]

Also, Gin's scarier than Aizen because you get the impression that Gin getting into your head isn't a smug little ego trip. Aizen's crippled by his need to go "ohoho, I'm so clever" to everyone and anyone he fights, and won't shut up at any cost. As such, when Aizen tries to do his lectures, it's a smug egotist yapping at you. Not intimidating. When Gin is messing with heroes, it was less "ha ha, funny trolling" or "look how much smarter I am than you" and more watching someone squirm a little before they died; unlike Aizen, you could actually believe Gin would follow through after he'd played around a little. Aizen was way too far up his own butt to ever get that kinda stuff done.

Pssh, I never found Aizen scary either. Intimidating in the sense of 'geez, just what all can this guy do?' but never scary or particularly threatening even. Dunno why, I just couldn't take Aizen seriously as a villain despite all he did.

Same with Gin. I mean, he was definitely cool but he never seemed evil to me. Bleach's villains never really did it for me come to think of it. :smalltongue: Last time I was excited about the bad guys were the Espada (who were almost universally spanked, and hard) and the Soul Society arc.

[Prime32]

For the most part, though, Barragan was more memorable for being pure awesome instead of scary. He totally should've been the Big Bad if Gin wasn't stepping up.He was the Big Bad before Aizen stepped up. King of Hueco Mundo and all that? :smalltongue:

[SlyGuyMcFly]

He was the Big Bad before Aizen stepped up. King of Hueco Mundo and all that? :smalltongue:

Poor Barragan, knocked off the BBEG seat before we even knew about him :smallfrown:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Before this charmingly trollish session, Bleach completely lost all credible merit (beyond nostalgia) the literal instant that Aizen slicked his hair back and became a boring God Mode Villain Sue. His impact as a villain died entirely, Captain Token stopped making anything resembling sense, and Gin was forced into an improvised persona flip because he became the most popular character in the cast (aka: Sylar Syndrome). Zombie Powder was lame, and Bleach still is (for the most part), both because I can compose more cohesive plots/worlds using toilet paper and my posterior as well as Kubo's stubborn insistence upon filling the holes in his tale/universe with weak jokes rather than foundational substance. I know it's freaking shonen, but even DBZ had a much more solid internal consistency, and it was the afterbirth of a gag-filled show from 1984 (the original Dragon Ball)!

[Hadrian_Emrys]

We're four pages in and all, but maybe that should have been the title. :smalltongue:

Worth the double-post: I agree. Bleach <X>: Problem, Ichigo?

[Trixie]

Worth the double-post: I agree. Bleach <X>: Problem, Ichigo?

...Yes :smallamused:

[Tavar]

So, can you change it? Cause, that would be awesome.

[Trixie]

...Yes, I can...

Though, now that I think about it, it would be doubly ironic combined with 'V' in thread, well, V... :smalltongue:

Vox populi vox dei, though ;P

[Drolyt]

I vote for the name change.

[Psyren]

I support the change too on account of my inability to devise a worthwhile donut-related pun :smalltongue:

I will point out though that trolling Ichigo is likely to be a staple of the series (assuming it continues much longer.) He's too easy a mark.

[Trixie]

Eh, you guys are no fun :P

[Irbis]

Huh, I see thread name change killed it :smallbiggrin:


I will point out though that trolling Ichigo is likely to be a staple of the series (assuming it continues much longer.) He's too easy a mark.

In fact, it's so staple I proposed to add it to all further names, as above :smalltongue:

[Fiery Diamond]

I was just rereading all of Fairy Tail (which is 239 chapters, plus the as-yet-untranslated one) and I found something interesting which I decided to mention here. There is a character who has a similar mind-affecting power (though less powerful) as our Baddie here. He uses it to insert himself into their memories as their comrade. But it's played rather differently than EvilTroll's shenanigans. This character, Doranbalt/Mest, is actually a (mostly) goodhearted individual (who just happened to have some ill intentions that involved him spying). Just goes to show that while that power is scary, it could be used in ways that aren't completely evil. Food for thought.

Not that I'm saying Trollface isn't evil; he quite clearly is.

[VanBuren]

In the climactic finale of the Lost Agent of the Shinigami arc, Trollface is defeated when the Cleaner pummels him at high-speed out of the Precipice World into a random moment of space-time in Sereitei. Trollzen takes on a new name and becomes a shinigami.

Yes, that one.

[Fiery Diamond]

In the climactic finale of the Lost Agent of the Shinigami arc, Trollface is defeated when the Cleaner pummels him at high-speed out of the Precipice World into a random moment of space-time in Sereitei. Trollzen takes on a new name and becomes a shinigami.

Yes, that one.


Trollzen. That shall be his new name. This also takes care of the confusion over "Fauxzen."

Also, I found that idea hilarious.

[Prime32]

Trollzen. That shall be his new name. This also takes care of the confusion over "Fauxzen."Implying that Aizen never trolled anyone. :smallconfused:

[Fiery Diamond]

Implying that Aizen never trolled anyone. :smallconfused:

But Aizen was never so classy about it. He was just smug.

On an unrelated note, I had a dream about Bleach last night. I was Ichigo, trying to figure out how to counteract Trollzen's ability. It was strange.

[Psyren]

Aizen was plenty classy. Do you remember what he was doing while trolling Hinamori? Calligraphy. What did he do when the kids invaded Hueco Mundo? Poured tea.

Until I see Tsukishima take out an actual badass (no, incomplete-Fullbring-Ichigo does not count) then he's just a two-bit knockoff as far as I'm concerned. This guy wouldn't last 5 seconds against the likes of Kyoraku.

[Fiery Diamond]

Aizen was plenty classy. Do you remember what he was doing while trolling Hinamori? Calligraphy. What did he do when the kids invaded Hueco Mundo? Poured tea.

Until I see Tsukishima take out an actual badass (no, incomplete-Fullbring-Ichigo does not count) then he's just a two-bit knockoff as far as I'm concerned. This guy wouldn't last 5 seconds against the likes of Kyoraku.

Hm... well, Aizen was implied to have been writing his death-message while talking to Hinamori, so that served a practical purpose. And Aizen wasn't in the same location as the kids when he was pouring tea... now, if he had still been pouring tea when they came bursting into the room, that would have been classy.

Additionally, while Tsukishima's fighting prowess is currently unknown (other than "he's skilled", which isn't all that specific) you have to remember when he stabbed Orihime and Chad: he managed to get behind Orihime before she realized it, which he shouldn't have been able to do even at non-captain Shinigami Shunpo speeds. This might be handwaved as Kubo doing bad writing and forgetting stuff, except for the fact that when he did the same thing to Chad, Chad actually remarks to himself on the fact that nobody noticed him get stabbed, which is implied to have something to do with Tsukishima (his speed or some other special ability) rather than just the Fullbringers being negligently oblivious. So... we can't say that Tsukishima is a weakling compared to the captains, and we can't say that he could take on any of the captains. He's currently a big question mark.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

It's been done. Not to Ichigo mind you, but admit it Hinamori's stabbing was Aizen's troll(?) against the captains. He could have killed them all without breaking the illusion.

Whatever the nature of Tsukishima's powers is, I hope that they're not defeated by the bad guy forgetting to use them.

I've already accepted the Kubo is going to drop the ball on this foe too. However, I've still got to say that Aizen was painfully misused. He was in the PERFECT position to turn every Shinigami against each other in a grand, in-fighting melee. Instead, he went the Shonen route and went for a meaningless power grab. That jerk-arse had a Shikai that could literally reshape the whole bloody world for its victims, and the power was pissed away by rampant abuse of the idiot ball.

[BlackDragonKing]

Any magnificence Aizen had in his initial reveal as the bad guy was pissed away when he turned out to be one of the most infuriatingly smug characters in all of fiction while simultaneously proving while he can turn a decent conspiracy with his incredibly broken powers, he's not fit to lead a parade, let alone an army.

Trollzen is doing a better job so far, perhaps because his smile is just a tad less self-satisfied than Aizen's at the moment. We'll see if he avoids being as irritating a villain.

[Fiery Diamond]

Any magnificence Aizen had in his initial reveal as the bad guy was pissed away when he turned out to be one of the most infuriatingly smug characters in all of fiction while simultaneously proving while he can turn a decent conspiracy with his incredibly broken powers, he's not fit to lead a parade, let alone an army.

Trollzen is doing a better job so far, perhaps because his smile is just a tad less self-satisfied than Aizen's at the moment. We'll see if he avoids being as irritating a villain.

Well put. That's pretty much how I feel, too.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

The funny thing is that you can literally see the exact moment when Aizen took hold of the fail ball and never let go (the hair slick). This new face also seems to be falling into the same pattern of holding an unfounded sense of smug superiority.

[MammonAzrael]

The funny thing is that you can literally see the exact moment when Aizen took hold of the fail ball and never let go (the hair slick). This new face also seems to be falling into the same pattern of holding an unfounded sense of smug superiority.

So he'll remain successful until he gets a haircut? :smalltongue:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Actually, his best hope comes from getting a new writer. -_-

[Turalisj]

Actually, his best hope comes from getting a new writer. -_-

Because a new writer never ends badly......

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Because a new writer never ends badly......

Just like a how a coin toss always comes up heads.

I don't know if you meant to be offensive, or not, but I still don't appreciate the sarcasm.

-on another note, am I the only one who feels that the whole *groan* 'fullbring' thing must have stemmed from a lame attempt at giving Chad's abilities some loose semblance of legitimacy?

[Drolyt]

I don't know if you meant to be offensive, or not, but I still don't appreciate the sarcasm.
How is it offensive? He's just making a counterpoint, the use of sarcasm isn't meant to be rude, we've always had a casual tone here. At any rate I agree with him, switching writers is more likely to make things worse. Besides, who are you going to replace him with? Kubo isn't a bad writer, he's just a good writer with some very noticeable flaws. Even if you found a "better" writer the story would still probably fall apart, it is hard to adapt to another writer's style.

[Trixie]

-on another note, am I the only one who feels that the whole *groan* 'fullbring' thing must have stemmed from a lame attempt at giving Chad's abilities some loose semblance of legitimacy?

...Chad, Inoue's, and these 3 background students.

You really think it would be better if they went unexplained? :smallconfused:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

His 'counter-point' was to imply that the absence of a guarantee undermines the stance that a new writer could possibly keep Kubo from butchering yet another round of great potential. Such a comment is a gross oversimplification of the scenario, and I find it's dismissive tone to be both rude and uncalled for.

What I actually claimed (half-jokingly I might add) was that the character's greatest potential salvation (from Kubo's near-inevitable ham-handed mishandling) would come from putting another writer at the helm in the first place. The fact that such an act would be a gamble (at best) does not, in any way, negate my claim. As such, what the 'counter-point' actually accomplishes is an attack on my credibility by implying that I am speaking out of ignorance. It is a passive-aggressive comment, aimed at me, and (I feel) a significant enough breech of decorum validate taking offense.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

...Chad, Inoue's, and these 3 background students.

You really think it would be better if they went unexplained? :smallconfused:

XD Not at all! I'd love for there to be more screen time and effort dedicated towards fleshing out the aforementioned support cast. However, I still find myself suspecting that this particular approach to defining this new power type is something of a poorly refined posterior pull.

[VanBuren]

His 'counter-point' was to imply that the absence of a guarantee undermines the stance that a new writer could possibly keep Kubo from butchering yet another round of great potential. Such a comment is a gross oversimplification of the scenario, and I find it's dismissive tone to be both rude and uncalled for.

What I actually claimed (half-jokingly I might add) was that the character's greatest potential salvation (from Kubo's near-inevitable ham-handed mishandling) would come from putting another writer at the helm in the first place. The fact that such an act would be a gamble (at best) does not, in any way, negate my claim. As such, what the 'counter-point' actually accomplishes is an attack on my credibility by implying that I am speaking out of ignorance. It is a passive-aggressive comment, aimed at me, and (I feel) a significant enough breech of decorum validate taking offense.

I think you may be overreacting just a wee bit, and reading into things just a tad too much. And by "may", I actually mean that I'm pretty sure you interpreting the post to be a great deal more hostile than was actually meant.

[Psyren]

Agreed with VanBuren and Drolyt, I don't see how Turalisj's post could have possibly been offensive.

I also fail to see how Tsukishima is doing a "better job than Aizen." Wow, he brainwashed some kids. I said it before and I'll say it again - until I see him deal with Isshin and Urahara, he gets not an ounce of kudos from me.

[Turalisj]

It is a passive-aggressive comment, aimed at me, and (I feel) a significant enough breech of decorum validate taking offense.

If everyone took offense at the slightest bit of sarcasm, the internet would have caused WW3 long ago.

[Lurkmoar]

If everyone took offense at the slightest bit of sarcasm, the internet would have caused WW3 long ago.

I was under the impression that the internet was always at war... just some fronts are calmer then others.

But anyways... Trollzen needs to sip some wine and give some hints about what the hell he wants.

[Turalisj]

It's obvious, he wants teh womenz. :smallwink:

[BlackDragonKing]

It's obvious, he wants teh womenz. :smallwink:

Another point towards my "everything that lives wants to bang Orihime" theory...

As for explaining Chad's powers, they've done that TWICE now, but Fullbring is the "fact" compared to "theory" of something I really didn't care about. I still don't know exactly what the point of this arc is or what ANYONE besides Ichigo wants.

[Turalisj]

It's simple.

Chad wants Orihime. Orihime wants Ichigo. Ichigo wants Chad.

[VanBuren]

It's simple.

Chad wants Orihime. Orihime wants Ichigo. Ichigo wants Chad.

Ishida is Forever Alone.

[Psyren]

As for explaining Chad's powers, they've done that TWICE now, but Fullbring is the "fact" compared to "theory" of something I really didn't care about. I still don't know exactly what the point of this arc is or what ANYONE besides Ichigo wants.

This. Freaking slow-ass arcs.

At least with the Arrancar/HM/FKT arcs, we knew who the Big Bad was and what he wanted. This arc is purely faffing about.


Ishida is Forever Alone.

Nemu seems to like him. (Which may or may not be squick)

[BlackDragonKing]

This. Freaking slow-ass arcs.

At least with the Arrancar/HM/FKT arcs, we knew who the Big Bad was and what he wanted. This arc is purely faffing about.



Nemu seems to like him. (Which may or may not be squick)

Considering that it's implied Nemu is Mayuri's opposite sex clone, kinda squicky.

Plus, you know, awkward, awkward father-in-law.

[Frozen_Feet]

Forget "opposite sex clone", add "test subject". We already know she's a storing device for experimental and potentially lethal drugs - the Devil only knows what else. (Why yes, I do mean to imply Mayuri is the Devil.)

Awkward father-in-law, now that's true.

[BlackDragonKing]

Forget "opposite sex clone", add "test subject". We already know she's a storing device for experimental and potentially lethal drugs - the Devil only knows what else. (Why yes, I do mean to imply Mayuri is the Devil.)

Awkward father-in-law, now that's true.

Considering what happened to the LAST dude that knocked her up...:smalleek:

[Fiery Diamond]

Considering what happened to the LAST dude that knocked her up...:smalleek:

*Shudders from the memory*

[Fjolnir]

Apparently the new bad guy can stab himself into the past of those he attacks, in fact they remember the attack(if they remember it at all) as a GOOD thing, ultimate manifestation of the power of SWORD indeed...

[Turalisj]

So... his stabs cause.... well.... :smallamused:

[BlackDragonKing]

Time-travel to insert himself into the past however he wants? Dude, this is an even more trollin' power than I thought.

"Oh, hey, just an FYI, but I kinda stabbed your wife the other day. You know how she saved herself for marriage and your wedding night was the first time for both of you? Magical moment, you might say?"

"...Yes...?" :smalleek:

"Yeah, that's not how it happened anymore." :smallamused:

Or at least I assume Tsukishima goes back in time to bang his enemies' girlfriends. It seems like the kind of thing he'd do.

[Trixie]

More trolling. Thread title more and more appropriate :smalltongue:

[DiscipleofBob]

It might be a complete impossibility, but I would love to get Tsukishima and Ichimaru in the same room. See who can out troll the other.

[Turalisj]

It might be a complete impossibility, but I would love to get Tsukishima and Ichimaru in the same room. See who can out troll the other.

Gin would win, if only because we got to see a last second redemption from him.

I still say he's not dead. He's just sleeping.

[Psyren]

Sigh. Two pages of Urahara and Isshin, then back to the pod people story.

Tsukishima's ability isn't perfect, because Chad and Orihime at least seem to realize he did something and still see him as an enemy (verbal slip-ups notwithstanding). Otherwise they would have taken issue with Ichigo training to beat their "friend."

Finally, the Quincy is on the move again. Hopefully he gets to actually do something this time.

[Turalisj]

The Quincy is our Worf. And we love/hate him for it. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

The Quincy is our Worf. And we love/hate him for it. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

This is Bleach. Everyone is a Worf except Ichigo.

[Frozen_Feet]

Bah. Even Ichigo is a worf sometimes. They take turns.

[random11]

"He doesn't brainwash you, he enters your mind and alters your memories!"

"Umm... Isn't that EXACTLY brainwashing, by definition?"

"Now that you mention it, I guess you're right"

[DiscipleofBob]

"He doesn't brainwash you, he enters your mind and alters your memories!"

"Umm... Isn't that EXACTLY brainwashing, by definition?"

"Now that you mention it, I guess you're right"

Now I could be wrong, partially because it was poorly and quickly explained and partially because Kubo cares as much about continuity as he does about Chad, but I took it to mean he actually altered the past of the person by basically taking their life's story and editing it in the fullbring equivalent of OpenOffice. Makes you wonder how much he can alter, if it really is just memories, if his "edits" are limited to specific events, or if it's closer to actually screwing with time. Quick! Someone find a tardis!

[Psyren]

I see it as what Mest does in Fairy Tail, only on steroids and requiring the target(s) to be sworded first.

He inserted himself to a much greater degree than Mest did, but the necessity of having to stab the target balances it out (if indeed balance was required.)

[Friv]

You know what I would love?

If it turns out that Genjou or whatever his name is actually erased everyone's memories of being that close to Tsukishima, and Trollzen isn't actually trolling. He just has a sword that can cut away the amnesia, and people are really just remembering the truth.

[Drolyt]

Now I could be wrong, partially because it was poorly and quickly explained and partially because Kubo cares as much about continuity as he does about Chad, but I took it to mean he actually altered the past of the person by basically taking their life's story and editing it in the fullbring equivalent of OpenOffice. Makes you wonder how much he can alter, if it really is just memories, if his "edits" are limited to specific events, or if it's closer to actually screwing with time. Quick! Someone find a tardis!
I thought what he was trying to say was that it was more than just simple memory alteration (which can be foiled because people can notice their memories make no sense) or mind control. The people affected have their entire memories rewritten to include Tsukishima in their lives. Everything, even the emotions they feel about Tsukishima are completely real to them, and it is absolutely impossible for them to see any inconsistency in their view of things. At the moment it looks like it won't work on beings of high spirit power, which is why he doesn't just use it on Ichigo, and why it appears to have only half worked on Orihime.

Of course what I really want to know is what Urahura and Isshin are up to.

[Fiery Diamond]

I see it as what Mest does in Fairy Tail, only on steroids and requiring the target(s) to be sworded first.

He inserted himself to a much greater degree than Mest did, but the necessity of having to stab the target balances it out (if indeed balance was required.)

This is pretty much how I see it, too.

[Frozen_Feet]

Of course what I really want to know is what Urahura and Isshin are up to.

Yeah. What's up with those ominous bastards being so darm ominous? I mean, Urahara's been sinister from the day he stepped on stage in his hat & clogs, but now Isshin has joined the bandwagon as well.

I'm perfectly convinced that at least one of them will turn out to be the real main villain of the series. One of them certainly looks the part (http://forums.mangafox.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2447&d=1293593157).

[Psyren]

Nah, I think they're working together to take down a bigger threat, maybe the Soul King, and just displaying a standard Anime Dad mystery about the whole thing. Urahara is shady and Isshin is a brick wall, but I don't think they're evil.

[Fjolnir]

Isshin is the real shady one, we KNOW why Urahara left the SS, we have never had any background for why he's not more connected with SS besides some unknown connection with Aizen

[Psyren]

When we see Ichigo infiltrating Soul Society's prison to speak to Hannibal Lecter Aizen about his secret past, that is when I will be truly excited about Bleach again.

[VanBuren]

When we see Ichigo infiltrating Soul Society's prison to speak to Hannibal Lecter Aizen about his secret past, that is when I will be truly excited about Bleach again.

Oh.

My.

God.

They're going to break Aizen out of Ghost Jail because he's the only one who can troll the troll.

What is it like to be Kubo?

[Thrawn183]

Oh.

My.

God.

They're going to break Aizen out of Ghost Jail because he's the only one who can troll the troll.

What is it like to be Kubo?

A: I am free!
T: I am just a bystander!
A: I am better than you!
T: I am friends with the guy who thinks he is better than me, always have!
A: What makes you think that was me you stabbed?
T: You only remember using your shikai on me because I made you!
A: I am too powerful for your technique, I used my shikai on you in spite of letting you stab me!
T: Everything in this story has been about me inserting myself into your memories in the form of this guy named Ichigo!
A: Actually, everything you see around you is just an illusion that I created, NONE of it is real!
T: Wait... does that mean we're just two guys who've been repeatedly mind-****ing with each other in the middle of a completely empty universe?
A: Yeah.
T: :smallfrown:
A: :smallfrown:

Me: Totally saw it coming!

[random11]

Now I could be wrong, partially because it was poorly and quickly explained and partially because Kubo cares as much about continuity as he does about Chad, but I took it to mean he actually altered the past of the person by basically taking their life's story and editing it in the fullbring equivalent of OpenOffice. Makes you wonder how much he can alter, if it really is just memories, if his "edits" are limited to specific events, or if it's closer to actually screwing with time. Quick! Someone find a tardis!

I know it's Bleach and common sense doesn't apply, still, if t was a "tardis attack" and actual event were changed, it would affect everyone at once, regardless of who he stabbed.

[Psyren]

Me: Totally saw it coming!

Everyone is Aizen in Purgatory (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory)

[Fiery Diamond]

What really struck me about this chapter was Ichigo, actually. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the first time Ichigo has ever basically suggested killing someone? It's always been "beating" someone or "stopping" someone in the past - this is the first time I recall him actually wanting to take the initiative to kill someone. It's kind of a serious shift and shows just how deeply affected he is by the situation.

[Fjolnir]

There's been reference to him having a killer instinct before, I think Hueco Mundo...

[Psyren]

What really struck me about this chapter was Ichigo, actually. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the first time Ichigo has ever basically suggested killing someone? It's always been "beating" someone or "stopping" someone in the past - this is the first time I recall him actually wanting to take the initiative to kill someone. It's kind of a serious shift and shows just how deeply affected he is by the situation.

I get that that's what Kubo is going for but it's still falling flat for me. The big problem here is Tsukishima - I could care less if he lives or dies because I have no idea what he wants. All I know about him is that he's a psycho axe-sword-murderer who apparently likes toying with his prey. So I react to Ichigo's resolve to kill him the same way I would if he decided to kill a Menos, or a cockroach, or cure a disease.

Thing is, I'm not supposed to. The whole point of Fullbring is that these are supposed to be the most human characters with powers to enter Bleach thus far - they guys from Chad and Orihime's camp at last. They aren't immortal psychopomps who go to spirit academy for a century, nor are they a reclusive clan of spirit archers who dedicate their lives to fighting evil - they're just a bunch of guys and gals who want to be normal and whose powers are as much curse as gift.

With Tsukishima, we get none of that. Just a plastic smirk. Even Aizen had goals and aspirations beneath all the trolling that made you care about him, hax powers and all. So all the intended gravitas of Ichigo deciding, for the first time in Bleach history, to murder another human being is completely lost, because Tsukishima is human in name only. He's Xykon with suspenders.

[Drolyt]

A: I am free!
T: I am just a bystander!
A: I am better than you!
T: I am friends with the guy who thinks he is better than me, always have!
A: What makes you think that was me you stabbed?
T: You only remember using your shikai on me because I made you!
A: I am too powerful for your technique, I used my shikai on you in spite of letting you stab me!
T: Everything in this story has been about me inserting myself into your memories in the form of this guy named Ichigo!
A: Actually, everything you see around you is just an illusion that I created, NONE of it is real!
T: Wait... does that mean we're just two guys who've been repeatedly mind-****ing with each other in the middle of a completely empty universe?
A: Yeah.
T: :smallfrown:
A: :smallfrown:

Me: Totally saw it coming!
I wish it would actually end like this.

[VanBuren]

A: I am free!
T: I am just a bystander!
A: I am better than you!
T: I am friends with the guy who thinks he is better than me, always have!
A: What makes you think that was me you stabbed?
T: You only remember using your shikai on me because I made you!
A: I am too powerful for your technique, I used my shikai on you in spite of letting you stab me!
T: Everything in this story has been about me inserting myself into your memories in the form of this guy named Ichigo!
A: Actually, everything you see around you is just an illusion that I created, NONE of it is real!
T: Wait... does that mean we're just two guys who've been repeatedly mind-****ing with each other in the middle of a completely empty universe?
A: Yeah.
T: :smallfrown:
A: :smallfrown:

Me: Totally saw it coming!

Aizen: *sigh* Which one was he again?
Ichigo: That's him, right over there.
Aizen: Boring. Well, let's get this over with.

***

A: Tsuki--Tsukihime...
I: Tsukishima.
A: Tsukishima. <full summary of T's entire life> Up until now, all of your battles have been in the palm of my hand!

T: Well yeah, that's how you remember it. </smug>

*silence*

I: See what I mean?
A: Alright, **** this. I'm going bankai all over this ****.

[Frozen_Feet]

A: I am free!
T: I am just a bystander!
A: I am better than you!
T: I am friends with the guy who thinks he is better than me, always have!
A: What makes you think that was me you stabbed?
T: You only remember using your shikai on me because I made you!
A: I am too powerful for your technique, I used my shikai on you in spite of letting you stab me!
T: Everything in this story has been about me inserting myself into your memories in the form of this guy named Ichigo!
A: Actually, everything you see around you is just an illusion that I created, NONE of it is real!
T: Wait... does that mean we're just two guys who've been repeatedly mind-****ing with each other in the middle of a completely empty universe?
A: Yeah.
T: :smallfrown:
A: :smallfrown:


Aizen: ... I'm really a woman, you know.

*HAPPY ENDING*

[random11]

Now I get it!

Tsukishima is actually a wonderful character that symbolizes what is being done on us, the readers.

Something along the lines of:

Remember everything you know about soul society, bankais, death gods and the characters in the story?
Good. Now we'll replace your memory with completely different powers and background stories.

[DiscipleofBob]

Aizen: ... I'm really a woman, you know.

*HAPPY ENDING*

See, this had me groaning a the concept of Aizen/Tsukishima fanfiction, but that just made me realize the true nature of Tsukishima's powers...

Tsukishima has the powers that every fanfiction writer dreams of, to make his self-insert Gary Stu fanfics into actual canon! :smalleek:

Just wait, within a month's time, he'll be the 10th member of the Straw Hat crew (though actually the 2nd since he'll have known Luffy since they were children) and he'll join the Naruto-verse as Naruto and Sasuke's long-time childhood friend and solve all the problems there. Then for good measure he'll rally the Z-warriors together since he's always been their leader, go save Hogwarts (he did found the place after all) and become Bella's one true love.

It never ends... It only begins...

[Hadrian_Emrys]

You know what I would love?

If it turns out that Genjou or whatever his name is actually erased everyone's memories of being that close to Tsukishima, and Trollzen isn't actually trolling. He just has a sword that can cut away the amnesia, and people are really just remembering the truth.

It would be the first time I actually laughed out loud while reading something from this series.

[Psyren]

See, this had me groaning a the concept of Aizen/Tsukishima fanfiction, but that just made me realize the true nature of Tsukishima's powers...

Tsukishima has the powers that every fanfiction writer dreams of, to make his self-insert Gary Stu fanfics into actual canon! :smalleek:

Just wait, within a month's time, he'll be the 10th member of the Straw Hat crew (though actually the 2nd since he'll have known Luffy since they were children) and he'll join the Naruto-verse as Naruto and Sasuke's long-time childhood friend and solve all the problems there. Then for good measure he'll rally the Z-warriors together since he's always been their leader, go save Hogwarts (he did found the place after all) and become Bella's one true love.

It never ends... It only begins...

"I first trained my sword skills alongside Gohan, before travelling the land and joining Fairy Tail at a young age. While on a mission, I discovered a strange notebook that could kill people, and educated an eager young man on its use. In my wild teenage years I joined a biker gang to help thwart an organization that was kidnapping psychically gifted children. I then bought a tuxedo and repeatedly saved the lives of a group of young girls in costume jewelry who were defending Tokyo from alien invaders. Seeking respite from this hectic life, I moved to Karakura town, where I befriended Tatsuki in martial arts classes and came second only to Ishida in academics. And here we are."

[Trixie]

Gin would win, if only because we got to see a last second redemption from him.

Eh, precisely because he wanted redemption he would lose, everyone knows you get killed by villain 5 minutes before you can redeem yourself :smalltongue:


There's been reference to him having a killer instinct before, I think Hueco Mundo...

It was 'killing intent', which is one of the most retarded anime tropes, BTW.

[Fjolnir]

The point is he's been killing things constructed of pure reshi for a while now, why not upgrade to flesh n blood?

[Psyren]

It was 'killing intent', which is one of the most retarded anime tropes, BTW.

It's cultural. The Japanese have a whole word for it (satsui.) That we don't understand it the same way they do, doesn't make it "retarded."


The point is he's been killing things constructed of pure reshi for a while now, why not upgrade to flesh n blood?

He wasn't really killing Hollows though, he was redeeming them. In fact, that was one of his first misgivings toward his new role, that Rukia had to address.

Bleach's first real "killer protagonist" was Ishida.

[Drolyt]

It was 'killing intent', which is one of the most retarded anime tropes, BTW.
I know somebody already said this, but it isn't an anime trope, it is cultural. Too many anime viewers don't bother to learn anything about Japanese culture, and so many things will come off as "stupid" or "poorly handled" when in fact they just follow different cultural assumptions, no better or worse than any other. Japan, because of its long cultural isolation and cultural/ethnic homogeneity comes off to most Westerners as very strange, but I don't see how that is bad.

[Tono]

and tbh its not that different from the western concept of some people being unable to kill and others not. 'You don't have the guts to pull the trigger.' Watch any gangster movie or western with a new kid, its just a different way of putting it.

[Trixie]

It's cultural. The Japanese have a whole word for it (satsui.) That we don't understand it the same way they do, doesn't make it "retarded."

And? :smallconfused:

You seem to suggest that if a thing is 'cultural' or has a whole word for it, it can't be dumb at the same time. But, if you stop to think about it, there is nothing exclusive about these three, being 'cultural' doesn't give anything free pass. Take the word 'hysteria', which was 'cultural' (only western), was a 'whole word' and yet, was a description of nonexistent female medical condition that caused enormous suffering for hundreds of thousands of women 'treated' for it.

In fact, IMHO, 'cultural' is shorthand for 'things so stupid they don't make any sense when you think about them, so they have to be artificially uplifted to remain standing'.


I know somebody already said this, but it isn't an anime trope, it is cultural. Too many anime viewers don't bother to learn anything about Japanese culture, and so many things will come off as "stupid" or "poorly handled" when in fact they just follow different cultural assumptions, no better or worse than any other. Japan, because of its long cultural isolation and cultural/ethnic homogeneity comes off to most Westerners as very strange, but I don't see how that is bad.

Yes. They indeed don't learn anything. That's why they think it's normal :smalltongue:

I tried to understand this concept, and read a lot about it, but every example was more mind-boggling than the last one, including normal people flying or shooting fireballs out of their behinds (and that in more realistic settings), so I sort of gave up.

Again, being 'cultural' doesn't mean a thing must be 'no better or worse than any other', in fact, there are dozens of cultural concepts that are absolutely barbaric (as opposed to 'just dumb'), which would make them not only worse, but evil. Sadly, naming most of them would be rules-borderline, so if you're interested in continuing this discussion, please do so in PM. I'll just say that IMHO, examining so called 'cultural values' is indeed possible, and they shouldn't be given free pass, both eastern and western.

Though, I guess I can name one, because it's dying and not politically/religiously related:

Japanse concept of 'pretty little feet', that is, way of thinking that small feet are cute - which led to tens of thousands of Japanese women each year having their feet broken and bandaged to stop growth, and make them as small as possible - which led to bone and flesh deformations. Another cute, little cultural thing with its own word, no worse than, say, manicure, don't you agree? :smallamused:

Out of curiosity, are you guys all males? Because it's a lot easier to think about 'cultural' things as okay when you're one, as the most horrible and barbaric cultural holdovers tend to target women, by men, making it sort of hard to relate.


and tbh its not that different from the western concept of some people being unable to kill and others not. 'You don't have the guts to pull the trigger.' Watch any gangster movie or western with a new kid, its just a different way of putting it.

No. That's why I find it so suspension-of-disbelief breaking. 'Killing intent', or rather 'hate for the enemy' is absurd precisely because it gives far more than that. You don't need skill or experience, or strength, all you need is a bit of hatred, and enemy ceases to matter. Remember Kon, teddy bear/mod soul? Give him a bit, and he will wipe out Aizen with a paw tied behind his back, no problem. There were similar concepts in the West, but they were examined and found useless centuries ago, and abandoned.

And I'm not exaggerating - just look at Nasu games, where normal teenagers go against immortal vampires with millennia of combat experience, or demi-gods capable of sorcery though impossible in current era, and win. All because they hate them. If that makes sense to you, well...

[Psyren]

And? :smallconfused:

And, unless you only watch anime for the pretty colors and violence, it might be a good idea to understand (and respect, if possible) the influences and mores underlying it.

In my humble opinion, anyway.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm pretty sure West has stories about witches and powerful warriors who could cause harm to others just by hating them murderously. Evil Eye, anyone?

(For the record, Finnish has a compound word, "murhanhimo", which translates to "lust of murder", used to describe it when a person wants to be really violent towards someone else. I don't know how close this is to the japanese concept, but whenever I hear the words "killing intent" that's what my mind translates it to. It doesn't seem retarded to me at all.)

[Drolyt]

Yes. They indeed don't learn anything. That's why they think it's normal :smalltongue:

I tried to understand this concept, and read a lot about it, but every example was more mind-boggling than the last one, including normal people flying or shooting fireballs out of their behinds (and that in more realistic settings), so I sort of gave up.

Again, being 'cultural' doesn't mean a thing must be 'no better or worse than any other', in fact, there are dozens of cultural concepts that are absolutely barbaric (as opposed to 'just dumb'), which would make them not only worse, but evil. Sadly, naming most of them would be rules-borderline, so if you're interested in continuing this discussion, please do so in PM. I'll just say that IMHO, examining so called 'cultural values' is indeed possible, and they shouldn't be given free pass, both eastern and western.
I don't entirely disagree with you, but the specific example, killing intent, is no more stupid than a wide variety of cultural artifacts here in the west, it just comes off as more stupid because you haven't been taught to accept it as normal. That is my point, it might be objectively stupid, but if you are going that route there are thousands of other things you have to agree are stupid.


Though, I guess I can name one, because it's dying and not politically/religiously related:

Japanse concept of 'pretty little feet', that is, way of thinking that small feet are cute - which led to tens of thousands of Japanese women each year having their feet broken and bandaged to stop growth, and make them as small as possible - which led to bone and flesh deformations. Another cute, little cultural thing with its own word, no worse than, say, manicure, don't you agree? :smallamused:

That's actually a Chinese practice, I have never heard anything to suggest it was ever practiced in Japan. And while your example is indeed barbaric

Out of curiosity, are you guys all males? Because it's a lot easier to think about 'cultural' things as okay when you're one, as the most horrible and barbaric cultural holdovers tend to target women, by men, making it sort of hard to relate.
I'm not eager to start a debate, especially since it could lead to breaking the forum rules, but this is nonsense. I can think of dozens of barbaric cultural practices that only affect men and not women, one that comes to mind is a coming of age ritual for young men in the Amazon Satere Mawé tribe where they had to allow themselves to be stung by hundreds of bullet ants, whose stings are about 30 times more painful than those of a wasp. There are also cultures where men are required to be circumcised, when they are already teenagers.

No. That's why I find it so suspension-of-disbelief breaking. 'Killing intent', or rather 'hate for the enemy' is absurd precisely because it gives far more than that. You don't need skill or experience, or strength, all you need is a bit of hatred, and enemy ceases to matter. Remember Kon, teddy bear/mod soul? Give him a bit, and he will wipe out Aizen with a paw tied behind his back, no problem. There were similar concepts in the West, but they were examined and found useless centuries ago, and abandoned.

That is not, to my understanding, what killing intent is or does.

And I'm not exaggerating - just look at Nasu games, where normal teenagers go against immortal vampires with millennia of combat experience, or demi-gods capable of sorcery though impossible in current era, and win. All because they hate them. If that makes sense to you, well...
Although I'm not familiar with Nasu.

[hanzo66]

Reading this thread, I'm a bit relieved that I'm not alone in my increasing apathy for what goes on. For whatever reason I simply cannot care less about the new characters and Tsukishima is really more Annoying as an antagonist than anything.

While Aizen is at least hilariously broken, this guy's just an annoying prick with the powers of, as others put it, being a Self-Insert Sue in others' story.

And on Killing Intent, I think it's normally just the ability to intimidate people with your sheer presence. Like how in Fallout: New Vegas there's the Terrifying Presence perk that lets you threaten characters into submission/challenge them to combat.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Memory alteration is, in terms of story, pretty much the same as Aizen's illusion power if you ask me.

Instant win if it hits, which means the hero has to somehow avoid it completely or the villain forgets to use it. I don't like it. No sir, I don't.

[DiscipleofBob]

Memory alteration is, in terms of story, pretty much the same as Aizen's illusion power if you ask me.

Instant win if it hits, which means the hero has to somehow avoid it completely or the villain forgets to use it. I don't like it. No sir, I don't.

That or Ichigo becomes/is immune for some reason.

I'm convinced at this point that all the important characters in Bleach just have the cheat codes and strategy guide to their universe handy.

Though I have to admit the sheer mindscrew of Tsukishima's powers has me intrigued for the time being. That and the one video game kid.

Still waiting for Kubo to just admit the whole series is a spinoff of Yu Yu Hakusho.

[Revlid]

And I'm not exaggerating - just look at Nasu games, where normal teenagers go against immortal vampires with millennia of combat experience, or demi-gods capable of sorcery though impossible in current era, and win. All because they hate them. If that makes sense to you, well...
You are, in fact, mistaken.

In your first example, I take it you're referring to Tohno Shiki, and his fight against either Nrvnqsr Chaos or Arcueid Brunestud.

In these cases, what's important is less killing intent, and more the fact that Tohno Shiki's family passes down ridiculous demon-assassin skills through the blood, a trait that comes along with a psychopathic alter-ego (you might recall references to Nanaya throughout the game). He's not a good fighter because he hates. He's a good fighter because he has an alternate personality with generations of fighting experience - which just so happens to hate everything, ranging from vampire to furniture (thischairthischairthischair).

Oh, and he can kill anything native to Earth by scratching it. Yeah, he's not intended to be balanced.

For specific fights, I'd note that Nrvnqsr Chaos isn't anywhere near a thousand years old, being one of the newer Dead Apostles. I'd also point out that his fight consisted of him going "bitch please, I'm invincible" and only realising he wasn't when Shiki was a few steps away.

Arcueid I don't recall Shiki fighting... unless you count him sneak-attacking her with his one-shot-kill-stab the first time they met.
----------------------
In your second example, I imagine you're referring either to Emiya Shirou defeating Gilgamesh, or to Tohsaka Rin punching out Caster.

In the first case, I'd have to point out that Shirou's hatred is not focused on in the fight. The reason he wins is a question of simple rock-beats-paper.

Shirou can instantly copy any sword that Gilgamesh can pull out, and use it with the skill of its original user. Gilgamesh needs a second or two to pull out a new sword, and isn't actually that good of a swordsman. If Gilgamesh allows himself to be drawn into a straight-up swordfight where he can't easily disconnect (like inside a Reality Marble) he will die.

If Gilgamesh had been wearing his armour, or used Ea from the start, he would have creamed Emiya. The only reason he lost (and this is pointed out) was because he did what he always does; massively underestimate his opponent, lose his temper and fall into hatred when he's actually challenged, and then make a bad decision that leads to his death. This is how he dies in all three routes, and it's how Berserker beats him in Fate/Zero.

In that fight, it was Gilgamesh who focused on killing intent, and he got his arm hacked off.
------------------------------
In the second case, killing intent never came into it in any way. Caster is a vastly superior magus to Rin. She is also a stereotypical squishy wizard, because having "magic from the age of the gods" means you can sit on your ass and obliterate armies. Meanwhile Rin, who grew up in an age where not having the physical ability to back up your magic is glorified suicide, practices karate and has been established as highly physically adept. A kick to the face turns out well for one of them. Killing intent is not involved.

Have you actually played Fate/Stay Night? Because I can't really think of a single "killing intent!" choice that doesn't lead to a horrible Dead End. Multiple times, Shirou only wins because his opponent is interrupted/has to leave/recognizes he has a point/dies of having an exploded heart.

[Mikeavelli]

Killing intent is a cultural thing, a translation convention that doesn't map directly to anything in American culture. It's similar to how people in Anime will shout "THIS IS UNFORGIVABLE!" Or similar and it sounds kinda've goofy to our ears, but when people say that in Japanese they're being indescribably serious.

Or how anime fans started using the word 'nakama' because apparently 'group of friends' doesn't convey the same meaning.

Think of it as, oh, I don't know, they're focusing their chi (another eastern cultural thing, but chi has gotten a lot more accepted and understood in the west) - in a such a way that they intend to kill someone.

The concept can be understood physically if you've ever taken martial arts lessons. The way you punch or kick and internalize the action you're taking can be the difference between, say, breaking a board, and hurting your hand. It's technique (punching in the right place at the right angle, trying to punch through the target instead of limiting yourself to hit its surface, etc) - but the combination of all of that has a single word to describe it, and that word translates into English as killing intent.

[VanBuren]

And, unless you only watch anime for the pretty colors and violence, it might be a good idea to understand (and respect, if possible) the influences and mores underlying it.

In my humble opinion, anyway.

That this is apparently something that needs to be said I find somewhat alarming.

[Frozen_Feet]

The concept can be understood physically if you've ever taken martial arts lessons. The way you punch or kick and internalize the action you're taking can be the difference between, say, breaking a board, and hurting your hand. It's technique (punching in the right place at the right angle, trying to punch through the target instead of limiting yourself to hit its surface, etc) - but the combination of all of that has a single word to describe it, and that word translates into English as killing intent.

In the army, we just called it "determination". XD

Ie., prowess in combat comes from three facets - skill, fitness and determination. Skill obviously includes any methods and techniques you learn by training; fitness includes physical size and strenght; determination is your readiness to carry through with them and hurt your opponent.

In addition, someone who's mentally geared for fight will cause bad vibes in those around them - their posture and body language will drive everyone else into fight or flight mode as well. This is the real-life basis for the ridiculous battle auras you see in anime.

[Kageru]

No. That's why I find it so suspension-of-disbelief breaking. 'Killing intent', or rather 'hate for the enemy' is absurd precisely because it gives far more than that. You don't need skill or experience, or strength, all you need is a bit of hatred, and enemy ceases to matter. Remember Kon, teddy bear/mod soul? Give him a bit, and he will wipe out Aizen with a paw tied behind his back, no problem. There were similar concepts in the West, but they were examined and found useless centuries ago, and abandoned.

And I'm not exaggerating - just look at Nasu games, where normal teenagers go against immortal vampires with millennia of combat experience, or demi-gods capable of sorcery though impossible in current era, and win. All because they hate them. If that makes sense to you, well...
I agree that "it's cultural" doesn't make something non ridiculous. But what you say about killing intent seems a bit weird.
Killing intent is something anime are supposedly able to sense with is weird in a way ( but not that weird in worlds with chi).
But what you are saying sounds like it gives a character super powers, and honestly that is not what it does. The only thing where I see killing intent making people stronger is in cases where someone told them that they are losing because they don't fight with the intend to kill. (And trying to not kill someone in a live and death battle is a drawback.)
Resolve and willpower are things which make shonen heroes super powerful and I guess they can be related to hate, but that isn't killing intent.
Regarding the Nasuverse well fortunately Revlid already said something about it so I don't have to.

[Turalisj]

I don't get what we're talking about...

[Fiery Diamond]

I'm being educated. Please continue. :smallsmile:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I think an even bigger issue is getting ignored here. Ichigo spent who knows how long in the <DBZ> world learning self-control. So much control, in fact, that NOTHING bled out from his power use. Now, along comes the Troll King, and all of that impressive restraint goes right out the window like it was non-canon material. Weak.

[Kageru]

Obviously the Troll cut his self control with his sword.

[Drolyt]

I think an even bigger issue is getting ignored here. Ichigo spent who knows how long in the <DBZ> world learning self-control. So much control, in fact, that NOTHING bled out from his power use. Now, along comes the Troll King, and all of that impressive restraint goes right out the window like it was non-canon material. Weak.
<DBZ> world? Hyperbolic Time Chamber? Dangai?

[Dvandemon]

"I first trained my sword skills alongside Gohan, before travelling the land and joining Fairy Tail at a young age. While on a mission, I discovered a strange notebook that could kill people, and educated an eager young man on its use. In my wild teenage years I joined a biker gang to help thwart an organization that was kidnapping psychically gifted children. I then bought a tuxedo and repeatedly saved the lives of a group of young girls in costume jewelry who were defending Tokyo from alien invaders. Seeking respite from this hectic life, I moved to Karakura town, where I befriended Tatsuki in martial arts classes and came second only to Ishida in academics. And here we are."

I'm lost in the middle.

[Turalisj]

"I first trained my sword skills alongside Gohan,
DBZ


before travelling the land and joining Fairy Tail at a young age.
Fairy Tail


While on a mission, I discovered a strange notebook that could kill people, and educated an eager young man on its use.
Deathnote


In my wild teenage years I joined a biker gang to help thwart an organization that was kidnapping psychically gifted children.
Either Akira, Darker than Black, or Zettai Karen Children. Haven't read/watched any three though, just know the basic outlines


I then bought a tuxedo and repeatedly saved the lives of a group of young girls in costume jewelry who were defending Tokyo from alien invaders.
Sailor Moon


Seeking respite from this hectic life, I moved to Karakura town, where I befriended Tatsuki in martial arts classes and came second only to Ishida in academics. And here we are."
Duh.

:smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

It was meant to be Akira.

Thank you for keeping me from committing the cardinal sin. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke?from=Main.ptitle0t9r68ih)

[Turalisj]

Well someone has to explain it for those who don't get references to other works of anime/manga easily.

[Lurkmoar]

You forgot to put in Yu Yu Hakusho in there. Or did you think Bleach hit enough of the notes that it was obvious in the first place?

[Dvandemon]

It was meant to be Akira.

Thank you for keeping me from committing the cardinal sin. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke?from=Main.ptitle0t9r68ih)

It's not really a sin if someone is out of the loop. I think it only counts it you explain after telling (which immediately proves you thought the joke would fly over peoples' heads) instead of waiting for someone to ask. Either way, I still get educated *U*

[VanBuren]

before travelling the land and joining Fairy Tail at a young age.


Fairy Tail

Don't hurt yourself too much thinking about that one.

[Lurkmoar]

Don't hurt yourself too much thinking about that one.

Ouch, just nicked myself reading that reply. You carrying a sword around too VanBuren?

[Turalisj]

Don't hurt yourself too much thinking about that one.

Well some people have trouble putting it together :smalltongue:

And you forgot to mention how he was Ryu's best sparring partner.

[VanBuren]

Ouch, just nicked myself reading that reply. You carrying a sword around too VanBuren?

Yes, actually. My Zanpakutō's name is "Smartass", its release command is "Mouth off". My Bankai's name is "Insufferable Smartass", and I also have a Fullbring named "Feelings Are Hurt".

I've got a theme going on.

[Psyren]

You forgot to put in Yu Yu Hakusho in there. Or did you think Bleach hit enough of the notes that it was obvious in the first place?

Zing!


And you forgot to mention how he was Ryu's best sparring partner.

*kicks self*

[Turalisj]

Oh, and how he fell into a hot springs in China and became a half demon, then went back in time where he helped Inuyasha become more human.

[DiscipleofBob]

You forgot to put in Yu Yu Hakusho in there. Or did you think Bleach hit enough of the notes that it was obvious in the first place?

Wait. You mean Bleach ISN'T a spinoff of Yu Yu Hakusho? :smallconfused:

[Lurkmoar]

Wait. You mean Bleach ISN'T a spinoff of Yu Yu Hakusho? :smallconfused:

Supposedly... but it wouldn't surprise me if we found out that Urameshi was Ichigo's grandfather or something.

[Turalisj]

Old man Yama is Ichigo's great-great grandfather, from his mothers side. Isshen was sent to protect her and any latent powers she might have. Isshen was 'expelled', but was actually in deep coverc, protecting her. He fell in love with his charge, and had Urahara make a device that would SAP the reishi from Isshen and Ichigo's mother. This took the form of Ichigo.

[DiscipleofBob]

Supposedly... but it wouldn't surprise me if we found out that Urameshi was Ichigo's grandfather or something.

Please, that's not even remotely believable.

Everyone knows it would be Kuwabara.

[Dante & Vergil]

Old man Yama is Ichigo's great-great grandfather, from his mothers side. Isshen was sent to protect her and any latent powers she might have. Isshen was 'expelled', but was actually in deep coverc, protecting her. He fell in love with his charge, and had Urahara make a device that would SAP the reishi from Isshen and Ichigo's mother. This took the form of Ichigo.

I like it, could make sense, and is totally fun for everyone!!:smallbiggrin:

[Turalisj]

I like it, could make sense, and is totally fun for everyone!!:smallbiggrin:

Is it sad when something meant as sarcastic and non-serious could possibly be one of the few things that would make sense in the manga?

[Mikeavelli]

Unrelated thought inspired by another source.

Could the Sokyoku kill god-mode Aizen? Will Kubo reveal that it getting destroyed was an intentional plot on Aizen's part to prevent him from getting executed if his plans didn't go as planned?

[Psyren]

Unrelated thought inspired by another source.

Could the Sokyoku kill god-mode Aizen? Will Kubo reveal that it getting destroyed was an intentional plot on Aizen's part to prevent him from getting executed if his plans didn't go as planned?

Doubtful on both counts, I'd say. For the first, the trial scene strongly indicates that if he WAS capable of being executed, they would have done so. There's also the fact that the Sokyoku really isn't that strong (blocked by Ichigo's Shikai.) For Aizen, it was just the most convenient way of incinerating Rukia's chocolatey shell while leaving the nutty center fully intact.

For the second, Aizen is certainly no stranger to the contingency plan, but even he didn't know exactly what he'd become at the end of all his mutations. Planning specifically for a scenario where he is depowered, in enemy custody, but unkillable by conventional means is a huge stretch.

And finally, there's the fact that the Sokyoku is really nothing more than a giant Zanpakuto, or more accurately a giant collection of them. If it was capable of killing him, theoretically any Zanpakuto could.

[Fiery Diamond]

I had a funny dream last night that involved Bleach. Specifically, it involved me having a Zanpakuto (which I used the shikai form of) and doing shunpo. I thought it was hilarious when I woke up.

[Frozen_Feet]

And finally, there's the fact that the Sokyoku is really nothing more than a giant Zanpakuto, or more accurately a giant collection of them. If it was capable of killing him, theoretically any Zanpakuto could.

That's a pretty weak argument. It's like saying that since anti-tank shell can blow up a tank, any ordnance could. It doesn't adress the boundary conditions required for, say, a handgun bullet achieving that, and whether fulfilling those conditions would be practical possibility.

[Psyren]

That's a pretty weak argument. It's like saying that since anti-tank shell can blow up a tank, any ordnance could. It doesn't adress the boundary conditions required for, say, a handgun bullet achieving that, and whether fulfilling those conditions would be practical possibility.

How so? If a Zanpakuto could kill him they arguably would have done so. The Sokyoku is just a big (and disproportionately weak) Zanpakuto.

Comparing the Sokyoku to an anti-tank shell is laughable at best.

[Fiery Diamond]

How so? If a Zanpakuto could kill him they arguably would have done so. The Sokyoku is just a big (and disproportionately weak) Zanpakuto.

Comparing the Sokyoku to an anti-tank shell is laughable at best.

Something that keeps getting forgotten when people mention how weak the Sokyoku is: Ichigo didn't stop it with just his shikai. He stopped it with his shikai while wearing the Shihouin cloak, the same family that created the thing that the captains used to destroy the Sokyoku. It was also that cloak that was allowing him to fly/levitate while in Soul Society. Some may argue that since it was never stated that the cloak offered any protection that it didn't, which I suppose is a valid argument, but it's just something to be considered.

That said, it's still weak by proportion; a million powerful Zanpakuto's shouldn't be able to be stopped by ANYTHING.

[DiscipleofBob]

To say the Sokyoku is weak because Ichigo stopped it is misleading, since it's canon that Ichigo's power level randomly spikes to absurd levels.

Not to mention that combat was never the purpose of the Sokyoku, it was strictly a tool of execution, which, presumably, it was very good at.

[Turalisj]

I would like to note that my theory of Ichigo's heritage explains why he's so damn powerful, yet unable to control that power at the start....

[Frozen_Feet]

How so? If a Zanpakuto could kill him they arguably would have done so.
Same fallacy as priorly. You're talking as if degree doesn't matter. Just because something could be killed by the power of million Zanpakutos, doesn't mean it can even be scratched by power of one. That you can shoot through a bulletproof vest with a sniper rifle doesn't mean you can do the same with a .22 caliber pistol. Especially since in the first Kenpachi Vs. Ichigo fight, we learned that Zanpakuto's ability to cut things is directly tied to the power of the invidual blade and the determination of the wielder.

Though considering Ichigo's Mugetsu failed to off Aizen, and Ichigo's Shikai is (according to you) what stopped Sokyoku, the idea that Sokyoku could achive something Zangetsu didn't can be dismissed pretty handily.

[Psyren]

Same fallacy as priorly. You're talking as if degree doesn't matter.

As far as the Sokyoku is concerned, it doesn't. Even if a Zanpakuto could kill him, it wouldn't be the Sokyoku.

Unless you actually think the Sokyoku is stronger than Ryujin Jakka, or Katen Kyokotsu, or Senbonzakura etc.


To say the Sokyoku is weak because Ichigo stopped it is misleading, since it's canon that Ichigo's power level randomly spikes to absurd levels.

Yet he still needed to activate bankai to keep up with Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. Your power level in shikai is significantly less than in bankai, spike or no spike.

[Fan]

As far as the Sokyoku is concerned, it doesn't. Even if a Zanpakuto could kill him, it wouldn't be the Sokyoku.

Unless you actually think the Sokyoku is stronger than Ryujin Jakka, or Katen Kyokotsu, or Senbonzakura etc.



Yet he still needed to activate bankai to keep up with Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. Your power level in shikai is significantly less than in bankai, spike or no spike.

Unless Ichigo was fullbringing his Shikai when it happened!:smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Unless Ichigo was fullbringing his Shikai when it happened!:smalltongue:

Wouldn't be the first time Kubo trolled me -_-

[Callos_DeTerran]

As far as the Sokyoku is concerned, it doesn't. Even if a Zanpakuto could kill him, it wouldn't be the Sokyoku.

Unless you actually think the Sokyoku is stronger than Ryujin Jakka, or Katen Kyokotsu, or Senbonzakura etc.

The Sokyoku is stronger then Katen Kyokotsu and Senbonzakura. :smallconfused: If it wasn't as powerful as everyone thought it was, then they wouldn't be using it for execution, they'd just have Old Man Yama do it or one of the other captains. Hell, Kenpachi offered to execute Rukia. And it's important to note that just because Ichigo didn't kill Aizen doesn't mean it's impossible, Ichigo didn't even stop it by himself.

He stalled a tool of execution and, before it could strike again, it got destroyed. It's like saying a headsman's ask isn't deadly cause it's a crappy combat tool, it's great for killing things but it's not meant to fight with (both a headsman's axe and the Sokyoku).

And yes, I didn't mention Ryujin Jakka, cause it's stated to be the most powerful fire zanpakuto and to have the highest attack power of any zanpakuto, which is why Aizen created an arrancar to specifically deny Yamamoto it's used cause it was a very real and deadly threat to him, pre-Mothra transformation. Heck, Gin was still a threat (albeit a small one) to Aizen before his final transformation.


Yet he still needed to activate bankai to keep up with Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. Your power level in shikai is significantly less than in bankai, spike or no spike.

There's a big difference between the Sokyoku and Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. The Sokyoku is a straight-forward, head on attack. All Ichigo had to do was get ahead of it and hold on tight. Zenbonzakura wasn't a single blade, it was millions all being telepathetically controlled. He couldn't just block it, a strike from Senbonzakura would just flow around a normal block. He couldn't avoid it in Shikai either, it was much faster then the Sokyoku. That doesn't mean Senbonzakura was more powerful, just more dangerous.

[Psyren]

The Sokyoku is stronger then Katen Kyokotsu and Senbonzakura.

Source?

They used it for Rukia's execution for one reason and one reason only - Central 46 (aka Aizen) told them to. And the fact that it could have killed her says nothing about its strength, especially since her reiatsu was drained away.


Ichigo didn't even stop it by himself.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m633/PsyrenY/Proof.jpg

I don't see anyone else there, and it's clearly stopped.


He stalled a tool of execution and, before it could strike again, it got destroyed.

Ah, so if Ukitake and Kyoraku hadn't sealed it, it would have killed Ichigo?
That's just ridiculous. Look at the above picture - he blocked it casually, with his back turned, with one hand, in shikai. And still had the energy left to take on 3 lieutenants + Byakuya without resting.


It's like saying a headsman's ask isn't deadly cause it's a crappy combat tool, it's great for killing things but it's not meant to fight with (both a headsman's axe and the Sokyoku).

If I blocked a headsman's axe casually with one hand, it's not a credible threat, yeah.



There's a big difference between the Sokyoku and Senbonzakura Kageyoshi.

Right - a power difference.

[Fiery Diamond]

Source?

They used it for Rukia's execution for one reason and one reason only - Central 46 (aka Aizen) told them to. And the fact that it could have killed her says nothing about its strength, especially since her reiatsu was drained away.



http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m633/PsyrenY/Proof.jpg

I don't see anyone else there, and it's clearly stopped.



Ah, so if Ukitake and Kyoraku hadn't sealed it, it would have killed Ichigo?
That's just ridiculous. Look at the above picture - he blocked it casually, with his back turned, with one hand, in shikai. And still had the energy left to take on 3 lieutenants + Byakuya without resting.



If I blocked a headsman's axe casually with one hand, it's not a credible threat, yeah.



Right - a power difference.

Regarding Ichigo not blocking it by himself: go read what I posted earlier. I believe that's what's being referred to. Some people (myself included) think that the thing with the Shihouin crest on it that he was wearing aided him dramatically in giving him the ability to block it.

Regarding the "power difference" you state at the end: what is being said by the person you're quoting is that "power" is not just a linear scale; destructive impact force (which the Sokyoku presumably has more of) is apples and oranges to speed/maneuverability/multitudinous-ness (which Senbonzakura Kageyoshi beats the Sokyoku in). So when someone says that the Sokyoku is more powerful than Senbonzakura, they are talking about the former.

[Psyren]

Regarding Ichigo not blocking it by himself: go read what I posted earlier. I believe that's what's being referred to. Some people (myself included) think that the thing with the Shihouin crest on it that he was wearing aided him dramatically in giving him the ability to block it.

1) His sword is clearly between the bird and his cape.
2) There is no mention of the cape blocking it here:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m633/PsyrenY/proof2-1.jpg?t=1309919392

She says "just his soul cutter (zanpakuto)." And in the second panel, you clearly see the sokyoku's "beak" pressed against his blade, NOT the cape.

I'm open to the cape's involvement but you guys need to provide some sort of evidence to back it up. As far as we know, the cape's only ability is to give him flight. Everything else is pure supposition.

It's a blade designed to execute captains... who have been imprisoned in a tower that drains all their reiatsu away. A well-placed kido spell could kill them at that point.


Regarding the "power difference" you state at the end: what is being said by the person you're quoting is that "power" is not just a linear scale; destructive impact force (which the Sokyoku presumably has more of) is apples and oranges to speed/maneuverability/multitudinous-ness (which Senbonzakura Kageyoshi beats the Sokyoku in). So when someone says that the Sokyoku is more powerful than Senbonzakura, they are talking about the former.

And yet Kageyoshi was strong enough to withstand/nullify the focused blast of his shikai (Getsuga Tenshou) whereas the Sokyoku couldn't even overcome his shikai being wielded casually. I'm sorry, but it's just weak.

[VanBuren]

Are we seriously saying that Ichigo, half-of his shinigami potential at most, was stronger than a millions zanpakutos?

[Psyren]

Are we seriously saying that Ichigo, half-of his shinigami potential at most, was stronger than a millions zanpakutos?

The facts don't lie. He blocked it.

A million zanpakutos... of what power level? All of the nameless mooks in the 13 squads had zanpakutos, yet even Chad was blowing through them like they weren't there. Merely having a zanpakuto doesn't make you strong. (Hint: Zennosuke.)

Some of you are caught up on the supposed number, but I have yet to see one piece of contradictory evidence saying that thing was actually stronger than Ichigo.

[Dante & Vergil]

At first, I was going to disagree with you Psyren, but then I read the following.


It's a blade designed to execute captains... who have been imprisoned in a tower that drains all their reiatsu away. A well-placed kido spell could kill them at that point.

Pretty much this statement here is what the Sogyoku was used for (it seems like it came up at one point in the series, but I don't remember where), and I would understand why none of the Captains wouldn't use their own Zanpakuto with that 1) I still believe that a Captains shikai is weaker than the thing, excluding Yamamoto's and more importantly 2) why have someone go execute a criminal when you have a weapon that will do it by itself, so no one will have unwanted blood on their hands. Plus, the Sogyoku has a Disintegration effect that Aizen needed to get the Hogyoku out of Rukia initially, so a normal Captain's Zanpakuto wouldn't cut it. (I just barely noticed the bad pun.)

[Mikeavelli]

I've always been a fan on the Shihouin crest theory, that the Shihouin shield was used only seconds later to destroy the thing does tend to imply Shihouin artifacts have a great deal of power over the Sokyoku. Nevertheless, there's no canon proof that I'm aware of that supports this, implying that yes, Ichigo really was just strong enough to block it.

The alternative explanation is that either the '1,000,000 Zanpakutos' thing is referring to very weak Zanpakutos, or it was a lie the whole time.

I think everything proposed here is equally plausible, and Kubo himself would probably just shrug and laugh if he was asked about it.

So, I guess the answer for my original questions is pretty definitely "no" on all counts.

[Psyren]

The alternative explanation is that either the '1,000,000 Zanpakutos' thing is referring to very weak Zanpakutos, or it was a lie the whole time.

Precisely.


I think everything proposed here is equally plausible, and Kubo himself would probably just shrug and laugh if he was asked about it.

He can of course retcon the details at will, but the facts as they currently stand are that Ichigo blocked it with his sword, and the Tentoken's only known power is to help the user fly (it's right there in the name even.)
Anything else ascribed to it is supposition.

[Drolyt]

Blocking the Sokyoku can't make you that strong, since Byakuya was still confident in his ability to defeat Ichigo. On the other hand, he only blocked it once, when it didn't think it would be blocked (can it think?) and then it backed up to try again, and Rukia at least seemed convinced that he didn't stand a chance a second time. Then two of the strongest captains resorted to an ancient and powerful artifact in order to stop the thing; if it was actually weaker than Ichigo they could have dealt with it themselves. As for the "million zanpakutos", that was probably a million rank and file zanpakutos, not a million Ryujin Jakka.