[3.5] Existing ways to make Crossbows work?

[Rei_Jin]

I've been puzzling lately over how to best make use of a Crossbow. From what I can tell, they don't get a lot of love from WotC. Here's the list of some downsides to using a Crossbow...

- Longer ammunition load times (Somewhat fixed by the Rapid Reload feat)
- Can't get a Mighty Crossbow (Somewhat fixed by Crossbow Sniper feat)
- Lack of Prestige Class support
- Lack of nice specific Enchantments (No Oathbow, no Bowsword, etc)
- Lack of non-magical alterations (No Dragonbone, no Elvencraft, etc)

I know that the last three can be fixed by homebrew, but that doesn't really help when you're looking for things that already exist in the WotC released books.

Can anyone think of ways to make Crossbow use more feasible for a character beyond taking Rapid Reload and Crossbow Sniper with a Light Crossbow and going for a rogue or scout? Feats, Prestige Classes, and so on would be great.

I know they're a simple weapon compared to the martial weapon that bows are, but really, the repeating crossbows are exotic without that much benefit. It just feels to me like the crossbow can't get no satisfaction.

[Big Fau]

There's a few specific enhancements in the MiC, notably one that lets you store 100 bolts in an extradimensional space. There's also a few specific arrows that can be converted into bolts that are ok.


Edit: And I think the web enhancements for Races of the Dragons have some very good exotic crosbows.

[fryplink]

While this probably doesn't help the historically the crossbow was intended to be used by the untrained to kill those with training in armor. They would give it to peasants and the like and tell them to aim and pull the trigger. They would, and it could kill just as well as an archer with a few years of training. Historically their point was, "use them unless you have training, then use that"

That said, 3.5 has very little crossbow love beyond drow hand crossbows, which are cheap, drow poison is cheap (if you are a drow) and effective at low levels and in social situations.

[Fuhrmaaj]

There's an item in the Magic Item Compendium called "Quick Loading" which basically creates an ammo clip of 100 bolts (I'm not sure what I'm allowed to say because of copyright or whatever.

Another asset which crossbows have is that they can be held in one hand. Crossbows may also be used for two weapon fighting as it says in their description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#crossbowHand). It's pretty feat-intensive but it's the only thing that crossbows explicitly have that longbows don't. They also do slightly more damage than longbows, which is good at low levels when you are likely to be able to shoot and reload in the same turn.

It's possible for rogues to do this as well because they are proficient with simple weapons; Quick Loading is a weapon enchantment; and Rogues benefit from having high enough Dexterity to wield dual xbow. It also saves you a feat which would likely have been spent on Weapon Finesse because you can TWF with xbows and use dexterity already. If you read the enchantment's description, you'll realize that DR isn't a big problem.

The trick with sneak attacking, TWF, xbow Rogues is that you need to stay within 30ft of your target to sneak attack which means you are more vulnerable than most ranged types usually are. You can't normally flank with ranged attacks either, so it will be pretty tough to set up flanks without that ranged flanker ability or whatever it was called.

There's an assassin spell which lets you double your sneak attack range or something like that in Spell Compendium too. That's another route to consider.

Hope that helps!

[Greenish]

There aren't many good archer PrCs in 3.5, either.


And I think the web enhancements for Races of the Dragons have some very good exotic crosbows.What, the double crossbows? Those are awful, unless you really want to TWF with crossbows (in which case you wouldn't take EWP for them).

[Eldariel]

Dragon also has some Bolts and Arms & Equipment Guide has Tumbling Bolts for flat +2 damage. Ghostly Reload from Races of the Dragon also adds some options to Xbows and Crossbow Sniper is obvious if going that route.

Sniper's Shot is the spell (Wiz, Ass, Rang at least) which actually removes SA limitation entirely. Overall, spells help a ton. Other than that, martially crossbows are still interesting with some trickery to dual wield them or just as a heavy sniper. Whatever you do, you do need to bypass the limitation of not getting iteratives.


The Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.msg15064#msg15064) Crossbow Section is mostly done though I have to get around adding the Dragon and A&EG content there.

[Big Fau]

What, the double crossbows? Those are awful, unless you really want to TWF with crossbows (in which case you wouldn't take EWP for them).

Better than the Icechucker at least.

[Greenish]

Better than the Icechucker at least.Being stabbed into the eye with a fork is better than being stabbed into the heart with a knife. That doesn't make the fork an enjoyable experience.

[Lord Bingo]

Basically I think Fryplink has it right.

The ROW seem to support this as the Crossbow has some "advantages" over bow in that it is a simple weapon with superior strength and superior range. As long as you put it in the hands of a PC/NPC who is only to make a single attack per round it is a brutally effective weapon.

Pathfinder does however have some love for the crossbow, both in the hands of a specialist rogue and a specially trained fighter, and it has a few extra feats too, I believe. Check it out! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/)

[Greenish]

- Lack of nice specific Enchantments (No Oathbow, no Bowsword, etc)
- Lack of non-magical alterations (No Dragonbone, no Elvencraft, etc)Those are pretty bad examples, since both oathbow and swordbow are terrible, dragonbone isn't as good as gnome crossbow sight and crossbow bayonets do the same thing as elvencraft.

[Rei_Jin]

Heh, I'm aware of the fact that they're not good options, but they are at least options for one to take.

Versatility isn't the same as power, but it does make for good roleplay.

[Eldariel]

Those are pretty bad examples, since both oathbow and swordbow are terrible, dragonbone isn't as good as gnome crossbow sight and crossbow bayonets do the same thing as elvencraft.

Crossbow Bayonets are somewhat worse than Elvencraft though with the -2 to hit on attacks that are already based on a stat you aren't maxing.

[Greenish]

Crossbow Bayonets are somewhat worse than Elvencraft though with the -2 to hit on attacks that are already based on a stat you aren't maxing.Eh, it's a weapon of last resort either way.

If you want better melee capability, there's Bladed Crossbow.

[Eldariel]

Eh, it's a weapon of last resort either way.

If you want better melee capability, there's Bladed Crossbow.

Eh, something other than the one in A&EG? 'cause that one is terrible; needs Exotic Weapon Proficiency or it's -4 on melee attacks and it's a specific magic weapon (IMHO Bayonet is just better).

Speaking of which, I should really get around adding the A&EG bows and crossbows to the Handbook. So much to do even in the basics before I get to the class specifics, and the original just doesn't contain much more than an A4 on any of the topics...

[Greenish]

Eh, something other than the one in A&EG?Yeah, I was thinking of the MIC one. It's a specific weapon, too, and doesn't come in light crossbow version, though, only heavy crossbow/battleaxe.

On the other hand, it doesn't require an action for going from one mode to the other, unlike the swordbows.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I was thinking of the MIC one. It's a specific weapon, too, and doesn't come in light crossbow version, though, only heavy crossbow/battleaxe.

On the other hand, it doesn't require an action for going from one mode to the other, unlike the swordbows.

Urgh. Hate Heavy Crossbows. So much work to make them worth a crap...

[Talentless]

What really bugs me about crossbows is the damage.

Most crossbows, once you move beyond the light/hand versions, have exponentially increasing force behind the arrow within their limited range.

While normal bows(non str bonus ones at any rate, because very few real life people had the strength to use those) had less damage, but with training, could achieve a far longer accurate range and faster rate of fire that equaled the two out.

But in D and D, the damage increase a crossbow has over a bow is not big, in most cases, it will RNG out to less overall damage per shot, without even getting into the rate of fire.

I tend to house rule in higher damage on the crossbows, 2d6 for medium, 3-4d6 for heavy(dependent on materials/party optimization).

While Dungeons and Dragons isn't real world, (Epic level fighters who can lift 1000+ lbs of stuff overhead without shattering their bones anyone?) Crossbows were designed as simple to use, heavy armor killing weapons, where an English Longbow couldn't punch an arrow through a steel breastplate, a crossbow would put that bolt through the entire Knight, and probably bounce off the guy behind him.

My Opinion on crossbows. (As an added bonus, the extra damage to the crossbows makes a mob of fighters a threat to a Wizard, especially with arcane/divine support of their own.)

[Greenish]

Urgh. Hate Heavy Crossbows. So much work to make them worth a crap...Well, as we have learned in this thread, it doesn't matter whether options are good or bad, only that you have them. :smallwink:


(As an added bonus, the extra damage to the crossbows makes a mob of fighters a threat to a Wizard, especially with arcane/divine support of their own.)If the 2-4d6 of damage from crossbows would a threat to a wizard, so would the 1d8 from longbows. A minor increase of damage isn't going to move the scales.

[Talentless]

If the 2-4d6 of damage from crossbows would a threat to a wizard, so would the 1d8 from longbows. A minor increase of damage isn't going to move the scales.

it is a matter of relative threat. A mob of five fighters, with some support to keep the wizard from just bending reality and making them all kinds of uncomfortable, can (with a selection of available feats, which as fighters, they get a lot of) make a decent number of attacks per round, which have much more of a threat than a longbow.

It is also subjective really, maybe it was just the way the rolls happen, but i ran my players through 2 scenarios, one with the fighters with composite longbows, the other with my version of the heavy crossbow.

The longbow fighters never dented the wizard significantly, the crossbow ones actually dropped him to negatives before being taken out.

*9th level party, against a CR 10 encounter.

Now I fully understand that against a fully optimized party, or a higher level than 9th its effect would drop off significantly. As well as the affect of changing the damage it does to 1rst level games and encounters.

But at the same time, with Wizards and Clerics and Druids running around, every little bit can help a lot.

Besides, its mostly for a thematic salve on my medieval weapons buff wounds that Dungeons and Dragons Damage/Usage/other rules applied in the first place.

[Eldariel]

it is a matter of relative threat. A mob of five fighters, with some support to keep the wizard from just bending reality and making them all kinds of uncomfortable, can (with a selection of available feats, which as fighters, they get a lot of) make a decent number of attacks per round, which have much more of a threat than a longbow.

It is also subjective really, maybe it was just the way the rolls happen, but i ran my players through 2 scenarios, one with the fighters with composite longbows, the other with my version of the heavy crossbow.

The longbow fighters never dented the wizard significantly, the crossbow ones actually dropped him to negatives before being taken out.

*9th level party, against a CR 10 encounter.

Now I fully understand that against a fully optimized party, or a higher level than 9th its effect would drop off significantly. As well as the affect of changing the damage it does to 1rst level games and encounters.

But at the same time, with Wizards and Clerics and Druids running around, every little bit can help a lot.

Besides, its mostly for a thematic salve on my medieval weapons buff wounds that Dungeons and Dragons Damage/Usage/other rules applied in the first place.

What exactly caused this difference in efficiency?

[Treblain]

I always liked the awesomely stupid idea of dual wielding hand crossbows, firing both of them, dropping them as a free action, and Quick Drawing two more loaded ones out of your massive, crossbow-filled trenchcoat so you never have to reload and are considered using concealed weapons. Dual wield double crossbows to make it even more silly. The downside is that you can't enchant all thirty crossbows you've got hidden in your coat.

Another interesting idea is using a Great Crossbow with keen bolts to get 15-20 crit range and being a Telling Blow Rogue. But reloading is even more of a pain in the ass.

But really, don't obsess over trying to find ways to make crossbows work with the rules as written, because it won't work and it will drive you crazy. Crossbows take too many feats to be effective and simply don't have many advantages over bows.

If you want to make them work:


Waive the 30' range on Sneak Attack. It's a stupid rule anyway, and Crossbow Sniper isn't enough.
Combine some of the feats or find some way to give crossbow users more feats.
Come up with a satisfactory workaround for reloading.
Add some magic, because nothing in 3.5 can be good without magic.

[Tvtyrant]

Multiple splitting property auto-crossbows would be interesting with quickdraw and multitudes of arms for a massive barrage of crossbow bolts.

[Thurbane]

If you're open to 3rd party, Crossbow Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4676071&postcount=18) does a lot to make crossbows more useful - though unless you take it as a Ranger bonus feat, it's fairly feat intensive.

[Lord Bingo]

The reason there were stirrups, levers and winches on crossbows was because that -especially the heavier ones- were impossible for a man to draw without help. Thus crossbows in D&D might be somewhat underpowered but I do not think that upping the damage dice is necessarily the best solution.

Perhaps give the crossbow a strength score of its own that is used when calculating damage and multiplied on criticals?

a light crossbow might fx do 1d8 + 5 damage
a heavy crossbow might fx do 1d10 + 5 damage

Alternatively (or additionally) increase a crossbows crit range to 18-20x2

[balistafreak]

If you're at the level where +2 weapons aren't a pain to get, you can get a decent amount of hurt on with Great Crossbows, the 2d8, 18-20 x2 exotic weapon.

But don't Great Crossbows reload like Heavy Crossbows, aka stupidly slow?

There's a feat (in Drow of the Underdark IIRC) called Hand Crossbow Focus. It's Weapon Focus + Rapid Reload for Hand Crossbows rolled into one feat.

Now make your Great Crossbow a +1 Aptitude Weapon. Congratulations, you now can make iteratives/Rapid Shots with your 2d8 crit-happy crossbow.

It still suffers all the problems of archery and crossbows combined, but it's the best single-wield crossbow combination I can think of.

[Flame of Anor]

Are there feats or something that can let you reload crossbows while dual-wielding them?

[Optimator]

Shooting prone can be cool.

...

[Doughnut Master]

Can you put weapon enhancements on crossbow bayonets? I could think that'd be useful for tacking on some utility enhancements for cheap.

-DM

[hex0]

Are there feats or something that can let you reload crossbows while dual-wielding them?

Put a chain on them and strap them to your gauntlets. Have one dangle while you load the other.

[daremetoidareyo]

Drow to the rescue!!!

Hand crossbow focus from Drow of the Underdark
Counts as weapon focus and instant reload. Fighter bonus feat.

Crossbow sniper from PHB2
Add half your dex modifier to damage. Fighter bonus feat.

Versatile combatant from Drow of the Underdark
You don't trigger AOOs from your crossbow usage.

Xaniqos School from DotU
If you have a bunch of scout bonus feats up to shot on the run
you get +1d6 damage when you move 10 feet.

[Urpriest]

While this probably doesn't help the historically the crossbow was intended to be used by the untrained to kill those with training in armor. They would give it to peasants and the like and tell them to aim and pull the trigger. They would, and it could kill just as well as an archer with a few years of training. Historically their point was, "use them unless you have training, then use that"


While that's true historically, D&D is more about emulating the fantasy genre than emulating history. In fantasy, crossbows tend to be gun-substitutes, used by characters to evoke modern themes, from Joffrey's fanboyish devotion to his shiny new crossbow to the shotgun-ballista used by Detritus. There's definitely some support for this in 3.5 (and TWF helps, since it caters to the fantasy action hero image), but perhaps not as much as there ought to be.

[WhamBamSam]

Drow to the rescue!!!

Hand crossbow focus from Drow of the Underdark
Counts as weapon focus and instant reload. Fighter bonus feat.

Crossbow sniper from PHB2
Add half your dex modifier to damage. Fighter bonus feat.

Versatile combatant from Drow of the Underdark
You don't trigger AOOs from your crossbow usage.

Xaniqos School from DotU
If you have a bunch of scout bonus feats up to shot on the run
you get +1d6 damage when you move 10 feet.Crossbow Sniper+Dead Eye+Hit-and-Run Fighter for 1.5*Dex or 2.5*Dex against flat-footed targets might be workable, if you don't fight too many things immune to crits (even then, at least Crossbow Sniper works). Since Crossbow Sniper and Dead Eye both require Weapon Focus, Hand Crossbow Focus does indeed seem to be the way to go.

Alternately, for something that hasn't been mentioned yet, there's no limit to the number of simple weapons a VoP character can carry around besides carrying capacity. You could get around the reloading problem by just Quick Drawing and firing pre-loaded crossbows with VoP adding an enhancement bonus to all of them. It's not as good as having real magic weapons with non-enhancement abilities, but it's pretty funny.

[DrMotives]

Can you put weapon enhancements on crossbow bayonets? I could think that'd be useful for tacking on some utility enhancements for cheap.

-DM

Sure, that falls under the same rules as enchanting both ends of a double weapon, or enchanting the weapon bit of spiked armor or a shield spike. That is to say, the bayonet needs to be masterwork quality & enchanted entirely separately from the crossbow it's mounted on, but otherwise perfectly doable. Besides being a last-ditch melee weapon, that bayonet will also allow you to take any attack of opportunity that come up. How often that happens depends on how your character & campaign go, but think about that before spending the resources to make that bayonet more effective.

[lumberingmenace]

Now this might not work with every dm or group but there is a solutuon that would work at my discretion if i was dming someone in this bind. Use a bow, play by the rules of a bow in every way RAW is concerned however, you can simply describe your character as using a crossbow. Its all a matter of aesthtic anyhow. Some people may disagree but you are paying the gp for stats and after that its all in the imagination. If you come across problems you cant ignore like the damage discrmpency, then balance them out. Want a d10 damage instead of the d8? Then sacrafice range in return as an example. Also, there is something in previous posts that should be pointed outfor historical accuracy about the differences in punching power for crossbow vs bows. First of all, yew longbows and stronger recurve bows which were the stronger conventional bows could infact puncture plate armor with the right draw power and and the right arrow head. Botkins point arrow heads could pierce plate armor from between 25 and 50 yards. Crossbows were more effective for this purpose in. Roughly the same range and much easier to use. Range goes to the bow of anykind over any crossbow of the medieval age. Mainly because the potential power accessed in the use of a crossbow came the the draw back that the ammunition used tends to lose it velocity and accuracy at longer ranges. Not the case with modern comparisons because tddhe quality control in the materials used today allows for a crossbow to have a longer draw than 100's of years ago. If you tried to make a crossbow have the same draw distance in the medieval era as the crossbows do today, you would risk a malfunction eg. The bow or bow string snapping. So if you want to be really accurate with changes of the two, crossbows within say 60ft of there target should pack more punch than a normal bow, however the crossbow should suffer penalties to damage at more excessive ranges compared to bows. All magic excluded on this last point

[lumberingmenace]

Now this might not work with every dm or group but there is a solutuon that would work at my discretion if i was dming someone in this bind. Use a bow, play by the rules of a bow in every way RAW is concerned however, you can simply describe your character as using a crossbow. Its all a matter of aesthtic anyhow. Some people may disagree but you are paying the gp for stats and after that its all in the imagination. If you come across problems you cant ignore like the damage discrmpency, then balance them out. Want a d10 damage instead of the d8? Then sacrafice range in return as an example. Also, there is something in previous posts that should be pointed outfor historical accuracy about the differences in punching power for crossbow vs bows. First of all, yew longbows and stronger recurve bows which were the stronger conventional bows could infact puncture plate armor with the right draw power and and the right arrow head. Botkins point arrow heads could pierce plate armor from between 25 and 50 yards. Crossbows were more effective for this purpose in. Roughly the same range and much easier to use. Range goes to the bow of anykind over any crossbow of the medieval age. Mainly because the potential power accessed in the use of a crossbow came the the draw back that the ammunition used tends to lose it velocity and accuracy at longer ranges. Not the case with modern comparisons because tddhe quality control in the materials used today allows for a crossbow to have a longer draw than 100's of years ago. If you tried to make a crossbow have the same draw distance in the medieval era as the crossbows do today, you would risk a malfunction eg. The bow or bow string snapping. So if you want to be really accurate with changes of the two, crossbows within say 60ft of there target should pack more punch than a normal bow, however the crossbow should suffer penalties to damage at more excessive ranges compared to bows. All magic excluded on this last point