Natural vs. Manufactured weapons.

[Greenish]

Happened previously:


Typically, PC's using natural weapons are exploiting the inherent superiority of dealing damage with natural weapons over dealing damage with manufactured weapons (there is nothing wrong with this, btw).


There is no inherent superiority of dealing damage with natural weapons as far as I know. So, if I've missed something, please elaborate. Natural weapons seem to mostly be inherently weaker than manufactured weapons due to their generally poor damage dice, critical ranges, critical values, and amount of strength to damage and have additional hoops that must be jumped through in order to use them effectively in a variety of contexts. Like against incorporeal creatures, say.

The only advantage natural weapons have as far as I've been able to tell is that if one can get a lot of them, they only attack at one's second BAB iterative at the worst, which doesn't relate to their dealing damage so much as their ability to hit relative to the whiffy hits of an iterative-based fighting type.


Ability to hit is no different than dealing damage, they are one and the same. If you can deal a ton of damage but cannot hit, you are still useless. This is why Shock Trooper is worthwhile for a charging build. A typical PC using natural weapons typically has many more attacks, has higher attack bonuses, hits more often and deals more damage on a regular basis than a typical manufactured weapons user.

There are always exceptions to the rule, such as an optimized charger using Shock Trooper, etc. However, assuming equal levels of optimization a natural weapons user deals more damage than a manufactured weapons user.


What's a "typical natural weapons user"? A pimped-out totemist? A guy who happens to have 1d4 slam from his races?


I assumed this would be obvious: a druid.


Is a typical manufactured weapon user a cleric, then?


I fail to see how following an off-topic tangent will benefit the discussion, so please excuse me for not bothering to answer this question.


I'm just pointing out that it seems your claim that a "typical natural weapon user" is better off than a "typical manufactured weapon user" seems to be based on the unstated premise where the former is a stronger class than the latter, which means that your implication that natural weapons are better than manufactured ones has not been proved, and since that relates to the original topic via the question of pricing an item, we're not even really going off-topic, but that probably has less to do with your refusal to continue the discussion than the fact that you know, in your heart of hearts, that your claim is as hollow as your only argument. :smallamused:


Wow, there is so much wrong with this post that I can't even begin to respond item by item. For this reason, I'll just summarize:

No, wrong. No, wrong. No, wrong. No, wrong. No, wrong.

It doesn't take very much application of common sense to see that natural weapons are better than manufactured ones by RAW. I'm not going to waste breath trying to convince you of something that is as obvious as simply looking at the fighter's BAB progression in the PHB, and then looking at a dragon's attack sequence in the MM.


Saying "no, you're wrong, and it's obvious so I'm not going to even explain why" isn't much of an argument.

As for comparing a fighter and a dragon? Why? Dragons can use manufactured weapons. Give one a greatsword and power attack, and see how the damage compares.



TL,DR: Are natural weapons inherently superior to manufactured ones?

[Zaq]

Inherently? I'd say not. You have to work a lot harder to pierce DR/Magic with natural weapons, if nothing else, and you have to find a way to get a lot of them, since they don't get normal iteratives.

They're perfectly viable and powerful if you know what you're doing. A claw-based PsyWar, a Totemist, or a Druid are all things to be feared. Inherently, though? I don't see it.

[Greenish]

Speaking of arguments, when are you going to make one?Okay, how about this: manufactured weapons allow you to take iterative attacks, are cheaper to enchant than natural weapons, can be two-handed for improved str bonus and PA returns, can be made of special materials, can increase your reach and grant other bonuses.

[Coidzor]

They're perfectly viable and powerful if you know what you're doing. A claw-based PsyWar, a Totemist, or a Druid are all things to be feared. Inherently, though? I don't see it.

How is a Psychic Warrior competitive with its claws?

The main disadvantages I see are the cost to get weapon properties on all of them with necklace of natural attacks vs. amulet of mighty fists' flat enhancement bonus and dealing with DR/material and DR/magic.

Followed by the whole 1/2 strength difficulty and seeming to mostly go for volume of attacks rather than improving attacks via power attack & its improvements, which is basically a less severe version of archery and TWF's issue with their multiple attacks not cutting the mustard without extra damage sources unless one manages to reach a certain number of natural weapons.

[Stripes]

Okay, how about this: manufactured weapons allow you to take iterative attacks, are cheaper to enchant than natural weapons, can be two-handed for improved str bonus and PA returns, can be made of special materials, can increase your reach and grant other bonuses.

Iterative attacks are a weakness, not a strength. Natural weapons give you more attacks at higher bonuses, forever. The higher bonuses let you put more PA into a swing since you know you will hit with all of your attacks instead of just the first one or two. The improved STR bonus: hit ratio does not make up for this "miss gap." Gaining extra attacks is absurdly easy for natural weapons users such as binders, totemists, druids, MoMF, etc. So many attacks, in fact, that the manufactured weapons user literally cries in shame at his double strength bonus to PA that can't actually hit anything more than twice.

If you have natural weapons, you likely either already have or can gain yourself reach. This is not a benefit of manufactured weapons at all.

Making a weapon of special materials (with the exception of adamantine, but this has nothing to do with combat but rather utility) is silly and a waste of money. You simply put Transmuting on your necklace of natural attacks, just as you would do with your weapon. You also have Greater Magic Fang, and don't care.

Just about the only thing that manufactured two-handers have going for them is being cheap. On that note, let's review take another look at the list of PC classes typically using natural weapons....yep....none of them have to worry about money.

Just about the only class that competes remotely is a cleric with a two-hander, however this is more a question of utility and not combat prowess.

Furthermore, most characters using natural weapons gain extra attacks through other avenues such as rake and rend. These abilities are absurdly easy to use.

There is a reason that manufactured weapons users simply going for damage are not a threat, and that's because using manufactured weapons for doing anything other than a lockdown type build is a waste of time. Uberchargers are cute, but natural weapons users actually do it better since they kick the ubercharger in the face when he can't charge, becoming useless.

[Veyr]

A single natural weapon is always worse than a single manufactured weapon for the same level of investment. The only argument you can make is that it's easier to get many-many natural weapons, while getting more than two manufactured weapons is very difficult.

[Keld Denar]

Both have their natural strengths and weakness. The BEST case is to use BOTH. Use Unarmed Strikes AND as many natural weapons as you can tack on. The main benefit of natural weapons is that they ALL benefit from Power Attack. Thus, if you have 15 natural weapons, you power attack at a 1:15 rate. The main drawback of natural weapons is that they are oppressively expensive to enchant compared to a simple fighter with a 2handed sword.

[Coidzor]

Both have their natural strengths and weakness. The BEST case is to use BOTH. Use Unarmed Strikes AND as many natural weapons as you can tack on. The main benefit of natural weapons is that they ALL benefit from Power Attack. Thus, if you have 15 natural weapons, you power attack at a 1:15 rate.

Not a true 15:1 rate when you run into DR/Regeneration though.

Mouthpick weapons seem to be a fair alternative to using unarmed strike as the source of one's iteratives so long as it doesn't nix a poison delivery system.

[kardar233]

How is a Psychic Warrior competitive with its claws?

King of Smack. Though, the considerably more effective (by about two orders of magnitude) Tashalatoran God of Smack relies on unarmed strike, so what does that say? :smallconfused:

[MeeposFire]

How is a Psychic Warrior competitive with its claws?



I guess you have not seen the king of smack builds and the variants of that build. It is based around using claws of the beast while using size changes and rapid strike feats along with vampire claws (for healing). The original king of smack has an attack of

13 claws +29/+29/+29/+29/+29/+29/+29/+29/+29/+24/+19/+19/+19 - 12d6+11 (x13), half returned as healing
1 bite +24 - 4d6+4d8+5
4 tentacles +24/+24/+24/+24 - 4d8+5 (x4)

for fullround damage of 156d6+20d8+168 = 804 damage

Without using sadism abuse (which makes this nastier).

There are other smack builds such as president, prime minister, and finally the Tashalatoran God of Smack. Each of those if I recall correctly were better than the original king. So yea psychic warriors rock claws if you want.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Iterative attacks are a weakness, not a strength. Natural weapons give you more attacks at higher bonuses, forever. The higher bonuses let you put more PA into a swing since you know you will hit with all of your attacks instead of just the first one or two. The improved STR bonus: hit ratio does not make up for this "miss gap." Gaining extra attacks is absurdly easy for natural weapons users such as binders, totemists, druids, MoMF, etc. So many attacks, in fact, that the manufactured weapons user literally cries in shame at his double strength bonus to PA that can't actually hit anything more than twice. Double? What is this double? I'm counting at least a 4x or more multiplier on any reasonable damage build. Plus, there's plenty of ways to get additional attacks. And attack modifiers >>>>> AC ramp-up per CR. So yes, you ARE hitting with your measly +1 BAB hit, even at level 20, because of the +53 or so other bonuses you're having.

Also, friends don't let friends PA without Shock Trooper and Pounce. Basic charger builds do WAY more damage than basic natural attack builds.


If you have natural weapons, you likely either already have or can gain yourself reach. This is not a benefit of manufactured weapons at all. Not really. Spiked Chains are my favorite weapon to PA with, since it's a 2h weapon, with reach, that also hits up close. Then tack one of the dozens of ways of getting size increases, and there you go.

In fact, manufactured weapons have so many MORE ways of increasing reach that natural weapons really can't compare here.


Making a weapon of special materials (with the exception of adamantine, but this has nothing to do with combat but rather utility) is silly and a waste of money. You simply put Transmuting on your necklace of natural attacks, just as you would do with your weapon. You also have Greater Magic Fang, and don't care. Or you could put Transmuting on your sword for half the price. And GMW gives more than a +1 on all your attacks. GMF, on the other hand, either gives bonuses on ONE natural attack, or a measly +1 on ALL of them.

Or, yanno, go Shards of Granite and ignore all DR.


Just about the only thing that manufactured two-handers have going for them is being cheap. On that note, let's review take another look at the list of PC classes typically using natural weapons....yep....none of them have to worry about money. everyone has to worry about money. If for no other reason than stat boosts.


Just about the only class that competes remotely is a cleric with a two-hander, however this is more a question of utility and not combat prowess.Or, yanno, ANY full BAB class with PA, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper...


Furthermore, most characters using natural weapons gain extra attacks through other avenues such as rake and rend. These abilities are absurdly easy to use.And weapon users gain extra attacks through other avenues like TWF with armor spikes, two-weapon rend, and do a hell of a lot more base damage to begin with.


There is a reason that manufactured weapons users simply going for damage are not a threat, and that's because using manufactured weapons for doing anything other than a lockdown type build is a waste of time. Uberchargers are cute, but natural weapons users actually do it better since they kick the ubercharger in the face when he can't charge, becoming useless.

Oh hai, lemme introduce you to a cute little trick... it's called jumping 10' UP and charging down on you. It's also called Knockback. It's also called Dungeoncrasher.

[Greenish]

Iterative attacks are a weakness, not a strength. Natural weapons give you more attacks at higher bonuses, forever.That's nothing inherent in natural weapons.


If you have natural weapons, you likely either already have or can gain yourself reach.That hasn't anything to do with natural weapons themselves, either.


You simply put Transmuting on your necklace of natural attacks, just as you would do with your weapon.Are you aware of how necklace of natural weapons is priced?


On that note, let's review take another look at the list of PC classes typically using natural weapons....yep....none of them have to worry about money.Money is power, plain and simple. Having to waste a bunch of it for enchanting your weapons does hurt.

Besides, the utility that some natural weapon users have isn't really due to the natural weapons themselves.


Just about the only class that competes remotely is a cleric with a two-hander, however this is more a question of utility and not combat prowess.Really? I thought your claim was that "A typical PC using natural weapons typically has many more attacks, has higher attack bonuses, hits more often and deals more damage on a regular basis than a typical manufactured weapons user."

Now it's not combat prowess but utility? What utility do natural weapons offer?


There is a reason that manufactured weapons users simply going for damage are not a threat, and that's because using manufactured weapons for doing anything other than a lockdown type build is a waste of time. Uberchargers are cute, but natural weapons users actually do it better since they kick the ubercharger in the face when he can't charge, becoming useless.So in the end, you seem to be comparing select tier 1-3 classes to tier 4-6 classes, instead of natural weapons to manufactured ones.

[Person_Man]

I would say that it depends based on the ECL, sources allowed, and the average damage that you want.

At low levels it's a lot more efficient to get natural/unarmed attacks. A Totemist with the right racial choice and feats can get 5+ attacks per turn at level 1 or 2. Builds using Wildshape or Alter Self can get similar results around level 5.

But by level 6ish when Power Attack combos and other higher level abilities start to set in, the amount of damage you can deal in melee starts to become so high enough that anything else invested into improving your damage becomes "wasted" from a metagame point of view, because your DM just makes everything much more difficult to compensate.

So from my perspective it's a moot point. Invest enough into it so that you're useful in melee 9which either natural or manufactured weapons can do quite well), and then move onto other stuff.

[supermonkeyjoe]

From what I can see the argument is less Natural vs Manufactured weapons and more X build with natural weapons > Y build with manufactured weapons

Natural attacks:
+ Deal piercing+slashing+bludgeoning to overcome DR
+ Multiple attacks are less succeptible to diminishing returns on attack rolls
+ can't be sundered or disarmed
+ Free
- Feat intensive to increase damage and increase attacks
- Hard to get more natural attacks outside of gaining more appendages or feats
- Hard to enchant natural attacks
- Hard to get natural weapon to overcome DR/regeneration

Manufactured weapons
+ Easy to swap out to overcome specific challenges
+ Easy to enchant/enhance and with greater variety of effects
+ automatically gain more attacks with BaB increase
+ greater variety of stats, effects and bonuses to combat manoeuvres
- more attacks at a lower attack bonus
-can be stolen, sundered or disarmed
-cost money

This is speaking in the most general of terms but I would say that they are about equal in terms of pros and cons, manufactured weapons have the versatility whereas natural attacks have the reliability.

[Darth Stabber]

At low levels it's a lot more efficient to get natural/unarmed attacks. A Totemist with the right racial choice and feats can get 5+ attacks per turn at level 1 or 2.

Skarn Totemist 2
Str 18
Dex13
Con18
Int-blah
Wis-blah
Cha-blah
Feat-unarmed strike
Meld - Girallon Arms (totem bound), blah, blah
Attack Routine - +5unarmed strike (1d4+4) 4*+0 claw (1d4+4), +0spine(1d4+4), not a bad routine for a second level dude, however: natural weapons is totemists primary combat stic, where as druids are juust broken, and psywar lives to do weird crap.

[candycorn]

Iteratives are as powerful as your accuracy.

At low levels, let's compare:

level 1 totemist. 18 str, dragonblooded, claws of the wyrm and dragon tail.
Attack: +5 (1d6+5), +5 (1d6+5) and -1 (1d8+2).

level 1 fighter. 18 Str. Greatsword. Fighter bonus feat: weapon focus.
Attack: +6 (2d6+6)

The totemist is clearly ahead.

level 5?
The fighter has +12 or so to hit (+1 greatsword), power attack
Total attack, +7 for 2d6+17.

Totemist is still likely ahead.

But what about when the manu weapon guy is using multiweapon fighting, has 4 arms with longswords, 2 boot blades, 2 knee blades, 4 elbow blades, and armor spikes?

Suddenly the Attacks seem to be a bit more even. Now we're getting into 14 manufactured attacks before iteratives.

And that's where it breaks down. Natural weapons can only claim superiority as long as there are many more natural weapons than there are manufactured. If you take a L20 guy with a single bite attack vs a L20 guy with a single greatsword, the greatsword will win, and iteratives will seem not so bad.

Iteratives are not a bad thing. Even if they're low accuracy, they have a chance of hitting, and it's an option that natural weapons do not have. If you want more natural weapon attacks, you need more natural weapons. Each only attacks once on a full attack.

[Keld Denar]

Attack Routine - +5unarmed strike (1d4+4) 4*+0 claw (1d4+4), +0spine(1d4+4)

This is not right. Secondary natural attacks only benefit from 1/2 of your +str modifier. So the 4 claws would be 1d4+2 and the spin would as well. Only the UASs, being primary (due to following the manufactured weapon rules), would benefit from full +Str.

At third level, taking Multiattack increases damage significantly, with the attack routine jumping to:
Attack Routine - +6unarmed strike (1d4+4) 4*+4 claw (1d4+2), +4spine(1d4+2)

Increased accuracy means more damage. Shape Totem Avatar for a form of PA that works with all of your natural weapons, which is fun.

[Amphetryon]

Iteratives are as powerful as your accuracy.

At low levels, let's compare:

level 1 totemist. 18 str, dragonblooded, claws of the wyrm and dragon tail.
Attack: +5 (1d6+5), +5 (1d6+5) and -1 (1d8+2).

level 1 fighter. 18 Str. Greatsword. Fighter bonus feat: weapon focus.
Attack: +6 (2d6+6)

The totemist is clearly ahead.

level 5?
The fighter has +12 or so to hit (+1 greatsword), power attack
Total attack, +7 for 2d6+17.

Totemist is still likely ahead.

But what about when the manu weapon guy is using multiweapon fighting, has 4 arms with longswords, 2 boot blades, 2 knee blades, 4 elbow blades, and armor spikes?

Suddenly the Attacks seem to be a bit more even. Now we're getting into 14 manufactured attacks before iteratives.

And that's where it breaks down. Natural weapons can only claim superiority as long as there are many more natural weapons than there are manufactured. If you take a L20 guy with a single bite attack vs a L20 guy with a single greatsword, the greatsword will win, and iteratives will seem not so bad.

Iteratives are not a bad thing. Even if they're low accuracy, they have a chance of hitting, and it's an option that natural weapons do not have. If you want more natural weapon attacks, you need more natural weapons. Each only attacks once on a full attack.

It would appear your numbers for Manu-Weapon Dude don't include Power Attack; is that deliberate? Power Attack escalates weapon damage more efficiently than most other feat-based methods, after all.

[Person_Man]

Skarn Totemist 2
Str 18
Dex13
Con18
Int-blah
Wis-blah
Cha-blah
Feat-unarmed strike
Meld - Girallon Arms (totem bound), blah, blah
Attack Routine - +5unarmed strike (1d4+4) 4*+0 claw (1d4+4), +0spine(1d4+4), not a bad routine for a second level dude, however: natural weapons is totemists primary combat stic, where as druids are juust broken, and psywar lives to do weird crap.

Yup. It's also fairly simple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595) for anyone to get bonus natural attacks with Feats, spells, and magic items quite efficiently. Dozens of different spells. Shape Soulmeld (Dragonic Claws or Tail, unbound). Aberration Blood + Deepspawn to get 2 tentacles. Willing Deformity + Deformity Claws or Bite. Horned Helm for a Gore (Magic Item Compendium). And so on.

Even without using the Totem chakra bind, a variant Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) gets Claw/Claw/Bite as a racial ability, and can pick up a Tail attack with just one feat (Races of the Dragon). That's four attacks at first level without taking into consideration class levels.

[Keld Denar]

Its not written, but multiweapon fighting is intrinsically related to how many arms you have, not how many weapons you can wield. Just look at the stat block of any monster with the feat. Just like a 2-armed character can only make attacks with 2 "sets" of weapons, regardless of how many weapons he actually wields, a 3 armed character would likewise get 3 sets of attacks, and a 4 armed character would get 4. It doesn't matter if you have a weapon in both hands, armor spikes, boot blades, a weighted cloak, etc, you are still restricted. Again, MWF doesn't come out and state this in the text for the feat, its just implied and the examples of monsters that use it conform to that implication.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Increased accuracy means more damage. Shape Totem Avatar for a form of PA that works with all of your natural weapons, which is fun.

Which shape is that? Normal gives bonus hp. Arms get you Improved Grapple. Feet get you Improved Bull Rush. Heart gets you DR/magic. Shoulders nets you Improved Natural Attack. Totem nets you a morale bonus on natural attacks equal to essentia invested. I don't see anything that works like power attack.

[dextercorvia]

Which shape is that? Normal gives bonus hp. Arms get you Improved Grapple. Feet get you Improved Bull Rush. Heart gets you DR/magic. Shoulders nets you Improved Natural Attack. Totem nets you a morale bonus on natural attacks equal to essentia invested. I don't see anything that works like power attack.

I think he was actually referring to Dread Carapace. It caps out at essentia invested +1, and only gives a 2:1 ratio on a bite attack. Hydras should definitely check it out.

[Big Fau]

level 1 totemist. 18 str, dragonblooded, claws of the wyrm and dragon tail.
Attack: +5 (1d6+5), +5 (1d6+5) and -1 (1d8+2).

Sorry to say this, but those Soulmelds can't be used together. Both require a Standard action to take attacks with their respective natural weapons, not the attack action.

[Keld Denar]

Blah, yea. I sometimes mix up Dread Carapace and Totem Avatar. Both have SOOO many different bind slots, unlike most melds that bind to Totem slot + one other slot.

My bad.

[Veyr]

Both apparently reference the Tarrasque.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think he was actually referring to Dread Carapace. It caps out at essentia invested +1, and only gives a 2:1 ratio on a bite attack. Hydras should definitely check it out.

Yea, it's nice, don't get me wrong, but still kind of... meh. Then again, it stacks with everything else, so it's not like it's BAD or anything... and Arm bind is pretty spiffy for natural attacks.

Gorrilion arms, however, are a much better choice for the arm slot, even if you are binding it to Totem it's still taking up the arm chakra slot, which kind of sucks.

Also, Totemist does a damn good job at range too, thanks to Manticore Belt bound to Totem. They're listed as Natural Attacks, after all, which means all the ways Totemists have of boosting natural attacks work on them. It gets pretty silly really fast.

So, Dread Carapace bound to Arm, Manticore Belt on your waist but bound to Totem, Totem Avatar bound to Shoulders. It's a shame they don't get a good hat for the Crown chakra. Crystal Helmet would be good to blow a feat on if you are going melee, but not ranged...

[Keld Denar]

Gorrilion arms, however, are a much better choice for the arm slot, even if you are binding it to Totem it's still taking up the arm chakra slot, which kind of sucks.

I've never heard this...do you have a citation/page number? What says that Totem isn't a valid slot to shape a soulmeld to, or that a soulmeld bound to the Totem chakra sill occupies another meld space?

[Big Fau]

I've never heard this...do you have a citation/page number? What says that Totem isn't a valid slot to shape a soulmeld to, or that a soulmeld bound to the Totem chakra sill occupies another meld space?

They have to be shaped on another slot, but binding them to the Totem does not also close that slot off.


You can't shape more than one soulmeld per slot though, at least not without a feat.


References are on Page 50 and 51 (the Totemist is explicitly called out on page 51).

[Veyr]

I've never heard this...do you have a citation/page number? What says that Totem isn't a valid slot to shape a soulmeld to, or that a soulmeld bound to the Totem chakra sill occupies another meld space?
Magic of Incarnum, pg. 51:

When a totemist wishes to bind a soulmeld to her totem chakra, she must choose a different chakra for that soulmeld to occupy. Regardless of the chakra occupied by the soulmeld, however, the totemist can bind it to her totem chakra. This is an exception to the normal rule that a soulmeld can only be bound to the chakra it occupies.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I've never heard this...do you have a citation/page number? What says that Totem isn't a valid slot to shape a soulmeld to, or that a soulmeld bound to the Totem chakra sill occupies another meld space?

Page 50 under Meld Selection, it states you normally can't have more than one meldshape shaped to a given chakra.

Page 51 under Chakra Binds, the final paragraph talks about the Totem Chakra and how it is different in that you have to shape it to another chakra, but bind it to the Totem Chakra.

So, having shaped Gorrilion Arms to the Arms chakra (the only one it can be shaped to), then binding it to the Totem chakra still takes up the arm chakra slot as far as a meldshape.

[Keld Denar]

Oh, snap...I never noticed that clause before. Interesting...and bummer.

[Veyr]

But not for magic items, as the Totem Chakra class feature on page 30 indicates.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, I got that. I just thought that a totemist should have a Totem slot that you can shape a chakra to. Turns out that you shape the melds to another slot, then bind them to your Totem chakra. Wierd...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But not for magic items, as the Totem Chakra class feature on page 30 indicates.

Well of course not. As long as it is merely shaped, and not bound to that particular chakra, it doesn't interfere with magic items at all. It's only when you bind it to a chakra that it blocks that magic item slot. Since the Totem chakra does not have an associated magic item slot, binding a meldshape there won't affect your magic items at all, but it also means you can't shape one there either.

[Big Fau]

Well of course not. As long as it is merely shaped, and not bound to that particular chakra, it doesn't interfere with magic items at all. It's only when you bind it to a chakra that it blocks that magic item slot. Since the Totem chakra does not have an associated magic item slot, binding a meldshape there won't affect your magic items at all, but it also means you can't shape one there either.

And since you can't bind a soulmeld to more than one chakra until Totemist 9, it really doesn't interfere much.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And since you can't bind a soulmeld to more than one chakra until Totemist 9, it really doesn't interfere much.

Of course, once you do hit Totemist 9, there's really no reason to NOT bind it to it's original chakra as well, since nothing else will be able to go there.

[Big Fau]

Of course, once you do hit Totemist 9, there's really no reason to NOT bind it to it's original chakra as well, since nothing else will be able to go there.

True enough. Or use the chakra bind on another soulmeld if that soulmeld's original slot isn't to your fancy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

True enough. Or use the chakra bind on another soulmeld if that soulmeld's original slot isn't to your fancy.

The Soulmeld in the Totem chakra is blocking any other Soulmelds from binding to that slot. It's either use the one in the Totem slot, or let it go begging.

[Big Fau]

The Soulmeld in the Totem chakra is blocking any other Soulmelds from binding to that slot. It's either use the one in the Totem slot, or let it go begging.

At 9th level? You have other chakras to bind soulmelds to, some of which may be more useful than the Girallon Arms' Rend damage (which really doesn't add much to your damage output).


What I mean to say is if you have something like Girallon Arms bound to your Totem, you may not want to bind them to your Arms as well (since you have the Crown and Feet chakras still open, and those may prove more useful).

[Glimbur]

You only get so many binds, though, and by my reading it takes two binds to bind the same soulmeld to two chakras.

As an aside, by my reading of Double Chakra one can take Double Chakra: Totem at 9th and therefore be able to bind two soulmelds to that chakra. We could argue about that if you'd like.

[Big Fau]

As an aside, by my reading of Double Chakra one can take Double Chakra: Totem at 9th and therefore be able to bind two soulmelds to that chakra. We could argue about that if you'd like.

What's there to argue about with Double Chakra? It seems very straightforward.

[Keld Denar]

If I'm a Totemist and I have...say 4 chakra binds, and I bind both Girallon Arms and Sphinx Claws to my ONE Totem slot, does it count as 1 of my 4 chakra binds? OR 2 of my 4 chakra binds? Its two melds, but they only occupy one chakra slot.

I've puzzled that one before.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If I'm a Totemist and I have...say 4 chakra binds, and I bind both Girallon Arms and Sphinx Claws to my ONE Totem slot, does it count as 1 of my 4 chakra binds? OR 2 of my 4 chakra binds? Its two melds, but they only occupy one chakra slot.

I've puzzled that one before.

It's two binds, you're just letting them overlap on the same chakra point. Count number of soulmelds bound, that's your number.