Umd

[hivedragon]

would it really mater if I got rid of the use magic device skill?

[Shadowknight12]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Yes. Yes it would. Don't make the non-casters suffer any more than they already do. Please.

[MeeposFire]

would it really mater if I got rid of the use magic device skill?

It would definitly matter if you use a lot of warlocks, artificers, dragonfire adepts, bards, or rogues for example. You also just make it harder on non-casters. Is there a reason why you want to do this?

[Ravens_cry]

What do you feel taking it away will add to the game? Personally, I wouldn't. Sometimes a magic user will go down, and you need a someone who isn't, or of the wrong kind, to at least get them back on their feet, or remove a status affliction, and so forth.

[hivedragon]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Yes. Yes it would. Don't make the non-casters suffer any more than they already do. Please.

How would letting non casters have acess to magic devices without a skill check make them suffer?

[Shadowknight12]

How would letting non casters have acess to magic devices without a skill check make them suffer?

While I am flattered that you have mistaken me for a clairvoyant, the truth is I have no inborn psychic ability to apprehend information through extraneous means. Your post said "Getting rid of the UMD skill." That, by any reasonable interpretation of the statement, means that non-casters cannot actually use magic items at all. As you can see, I'm not the only one who arrived to that conclusion.

To answer your query, it just means that casters become even more powerful, as they can pick up scrolls and wands from other class lists and break the game just a little more painfully.

If you restrict this to non-casters, it could be a good way to even the tiers, provided that non-casters can afford it.

[Ravens_cry]

How would letting non casters have acess to magic devices without a skill check make them suffer?
See, that's called a detail, we need those. All you said was get rid of the skill, you never said how magic devices work in the absence of the skill.
I still say no, I say if knowing how to lie effectively (Bluff), what waving of the hands in such-and-such a way with words said just-so means what spell, (Spellcraft), requires investment by a character (skill ranks) why shouldn't knowing how to activate arcane devices?

[Godskook]

See, that's called a detail, we need those.

Is that part of the Aunt Amy Uncle Bob code? If so, you deserve an internet, you poor thing.

[Ravens_cry]

Is that part of the Aunt Amy Uncle Bob code? If so, you deserve an internet, you poor thing.
The what? I was merely snarking, though I am pretty sure others have said something similar.

[only1doug]

The what? I was merely snarking, though I am pretty sure others have said something similar.

Oh you poor thing (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2011-06-12)

[Godskook]

The what? I was merely snarking, though I am pretty sure others have said something similar.

Its one of my favorite quotes from an awesome webcomic (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-10-04).

[hivedragon]

See, that's called a detail, we need those. All you said was get rid of the skill, you never said how magic devices work in the absence of the skill.

I thought I was pretty clear. I said I was getting rid of the UMD skill, not getting rid of any magical devices. Why I didn't mention how using magical devices should work without the UMD skill is because I am not exactly sure how it should work myself. I created this thread to find that out.

This is how I think it should work. They find a scroll they automatically know what it's for (similarily I want to get rid of the apraise skill). Anyone can use it unless it requires a specific race which there is no way around that unless you are a mongrelfolk or a changeling with racial emulation. Provided you have the specific item creation feat, caster level, exp and material cost you can create any magic item you like. Artificers and warlocks get a free feat at instead of the ability the ability to emulate known spell prereqs during the item creation prossess. Another way It might work is simply not allowing the players to create magic items.

[Ravens_cry]

I thought I was pretty clear. I said I was getting rid of the UMD skill, not getting rid of any magical devices. Why I didn't mention how using magical devices should work without the UMD skill is because I am not exactly sure how it should work myself. I created this thread to find that out.

Considering that three people replied to your thread and got what you meant wrong, statistically it is looking increasingly unlikely. I mean, you even say you didn't know what you meant yourself. Oh, and we, or at least I, never thought you were getting rid of magical devices, just making them in-usable by those without, or with the wrong, spell casting class. Heck, you even admit you don't know yourself. So even if Shadowknight12 had won one million dollars (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html), they would not be able to.


This is how I think it should work. They find a scroll they automatically know what it's for (similarily I want to get rid of the apraise skill). Anyone can use it unless it requires a specific race which there is no way around that unless you are a mongrelfolk or a changeling with racial emulation. Provided you have the specific item creation feat, caster level, exp and material cost you can create any magic item you like. Artificers and warlocks get a free feat at instead of the ability the ability to emulate known spell prereqs during the item creation prossess. Another way It might work is simply not allowing the players to create magic items.
I really don't like the latter. In general, I dislike barriers between what a PC and what NPC can potentially do, it disrupts immersion for me.
As for the former, I could see it working in a super-high magic society, where everyone can be assumed to have training, or the devices are as simple to use as possible, that everyone automatically passes. We are talking Tippy-Verse levels here though. But in a more usual campaign? I think UMD skill serves a purpose, giving distinction between characters by investment. Why should a man out of the wild, a barbarian by any other name, from a culture that actively despises and abhors arcane magic, be able to pick up a scroll and cast from it as well as an apprentice mage?
Not making with the sense making for me as far as in-universe is concerned.

[hivedragon]

As of now the classes with access to magical devices make no sense. Warlocks and artificers with mediocer magical ability and rogues one of the few classes with no magical ability.

How about full casters (plus artificers) can use any magical device where as everyone else needs to spend a feat to do that.

I believe this also solves one of my original objectives of giving a non-magical party access to spells when they need them.

[Big Fau]

As of now the classes with access to magical devices make no sense. Warlocks and artificers with mediocer magical ability and rogues one of the few classes with no magical ability.

How about full casters (plus artificers) can use any magical device where as everyone else needs to spend a feat to do that.

I believe this also solves one of my original objectives of giving a non-magical party access to spells when they need them.

UMD isn't about innate magical ability, it's about knowing how to use magic devices.

[NNescio]

As of now the classes with access to magical devices make no sense. Warlocks and artificers with mediocer magical ability and rogues one of the few classes with no magical ability.

How about full casters (plus artificers) can use any magical device where as everyone else needs to spend a feat to do that.

I believe this also solves one of my original objectives of giving a non-magical party access to spells when they need them.

Spellcasting classes can activate spell-completion (scrolls) and spell-trigger (wands) items with spells on their respective class list because they have the necessary spellcasting knowledge (even if they can't actually cast the spell yet).

Command-word items require the proper command-word to be spoken in order to be activated.

UMD allows the skill user to bypass all of these restrictions and activate magic items with the sheer force of their personality. In effect, they are using these items in ways they are not designed for, and hence the skill is often found on the class list of 'tinkering' classes.

[hivedragon]

UMD isn't about innate magical ability, it's about knowing how to use magic devices.

If that was the case then UMD would be an Int beased skill.

[Ravens_cry]

If that was the case then UMD would be an Int beased skill.

Maybe yes, maybe no, but why should everyone be equally good at it? What does either this or making it a feat add to the game for you that having it be a skill does not?

[hivedragon]

Maybe yes, maybe no, but why should everyone be equally good at it? What does either this or making it a feat add to the game for you that having it be a skill does not?

As of now very few classes have the UMD as a class skill, and even if UMD was on every class skill list it is still a hefty investment. As a feat it is less of a long term investment. Also I don't like how with use magic device an orc can use a precious elfen enchanted heirloom.

[dextercorvia]

Skill points are almost always worth less than a feat.

[Big Fau]

As of now very few classes have the UMD as a class skill, and even if UMD was on every class skill list it is still a hefty investment. As a feat it is less of a long term investment. Also I don't like how with use magic device an orc can use a precious elfen enchanted heirloom.

Very few classes have any reason to use a wand, scroll, or staff. The ones that do have UMD can make decent use of those items, but the rest don't need those.

[hivedragon]

Skill points are almost always worth less than a feat.

feat is certainly worth more than a few skill points but enough skillpoints will certainly be worth more than a feat.


Very few classes have any reason to use a wand, scroll, or staff. The ones that do have UMD can make decent use of those items, but the rest don't need those.

who are you to determain that?
personally I'd like to try a game with low magic, but with scrolls, wands and staves available when the situation calls for them.

[dextercorvia]

feat is certainly worth more than a few skill points but enough skillpoints will certainly be worth more than a feat.


Not in most builds. Most skill monkey builds are already feat-starved. I always have extra skill points lying around in a caster build (Ur-Priest is an exception), and unless it's for a prereq, the same is true for smashy builds.

[myancey]

As of now very few classes have the UMD as a class skill, and even if UMD was on every class skill list it is still a hefty investment. As a feat it is less of a long term investment. Also I don't like how with use magic device an orc can use a precious elfen enchanted heirloom.

Plus, didn't they write the Magic Item Compendium to have items that almost everyone can use? That book covers most of what a player without the MIC would need. But its a great skill to have.

[Godskook]

UMD isn't about figuring out how a magic item works. Its about *MAKING* it work, through sheer force of determination, the same way I made my old NES work back in the 80s, despite having no idea why it wasn't working. Sheer determination is governed more by Cha/Wis than by Int, and of those two, Wis is defensively based(Sense Motive, Will Saves), while Cha is aggressive(Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Force of Personality feat). Having UMD run off Cha, *AND* having available to skillful non-casters makes *SENSE*.