Thoughts on a Dragon Desciple

[BoutsofInsanity]

I will be running a bard and am curious on how the prestige class dragon desciple works in 3.5. Its always intrigued me. Thoughts?

[Keld Denar]

Bout what?

In a core-only game...its ok. Not great, but not terrible. With other sources available, its a bit lackluster. For a bard, though, its decidely not good. It doesn't progress spellcasting, doesn't progress music, and doesn't improve your BAB or other fighting qualities much beyond a couple points of Str.

[Hirax]

Its spell "progression" is junk, so it doesn't make sense for casters. It doesn't get full BAB and requires 8 ranks of knowledge (arcana), and so it doesn't make much sense for melee based characters. If you're interested in being a dragon character, consider becoming a dragonborn, from Races of the Dragon.

edit: if the character isn't already made, a spellscale, also from Races of the Dragon, might interest you.

[Seharvepernfan]

Ask your DM if you can continue sorcerer spells known progression, but with spells per day starting at 1 at each new level and maxing at 3.

Something along those lines would make more sense than just a few bonus spells at 3rd or 4th level or whatever.

EDIT: derp

[Urpriest]

Bout what?

In a core-only game...its ok. Not great, but not terrible. With other sources available, its a bit lackluster. For a bard, though, its decidely not good. It doesn't progress spellcasting, doesn't progress music, and doesn't improve your BAB or other fighting qualities much beyond a couple points of Str.

I thought that the standard charop use of Dragon Disciple in a core-only game used bard. Isn't Bard 1/Barbarian 4 the standard entry?

[Keld Denar]

Bard or Sorc, generally picking up verbal only spells like True Strike and Benign Transposition. That doesn't make it a Bard PrC though...Bard is just a dip to meet the prereqs.

[big teej]

For the purposes of our campaign, if the dragon disciple is what you're after.

chase it.


our game is far too low op to really worry about it*



*this obviously includes exceptions such as Monk, Truenamers, and Samurai. but I digress.

[Thurbane]

In low-op it doesn't matter so much, but the "best" use of Dragon Disciple is as a dip (usually a max of 4 levels) in a melee based build. It's pretty awful on any full caster build (the Patherfinder version at least has lmited caster progression).

It also has (limited) use for boosting spells/day for a PrC that has maxed out at 10 levels, like, say Assassin or (out of core) Suel Arcanamach.

[Amphetryon]

It's vaguely amusing in a low-to-mid op game that allows Paragon classes. Gish it up with the Human and Half-Dragon Paragons and you can have some fun if you took touch spells and/or Arcane Strike.

[dextercorvia]

It's vaguely amusing in a low-to-mid op game that allows Paragon classes. Gish it up with the Human and Half-Dragon Paragons and you can have some fun if you took touch spells and/or Arcane Strike.

You may only take one Paragon class, unless it is noted in the class description. The breath weapon ability of the Half Dragon Paragon is available as a feat, and +1 NA is meh. The +3 to CL is okay, but you've pretty well decided that doesn't matter by taking DD in the first place.

[Amphetryon]

You may only take one Paragon class, unless it is noted in the class description. The breath weapon ability of the Half Dragon Paragon is available as a feat, and +1 NA is meh. The +3 to CL is okay, but you've pretty well decided that doesn't matter by taking DD in the first place.

Was thinking Half-Elven. Mea Culpa.

[Eldariel]

Bard or Sorc, generally picking up verbal only spells like True Strike and Benign Transposition. That doesn't make it a Bard PrC though...Bard is just a dip to meet the prereqs.

Sorc almost invariably since Bard doesn't get level 1 spells on level 1. And Sorc 2/DD 4 is fairly...alright, it breaks even BAB/Str wise (extra damage & Str-checks at the cost of BAB) and shores up the awful Will-save warriors are plagued by in Core. Of course, that's not saying much but it's still better than what warrior classes offer higher up.

The higher levels (other than level 10) are of interest for various things you'd normally need magic for as free but turning into a Dragon is very inconvenient in games without Polymorph on the table (and if Poly is on the table, you've probably picked the wrong archetype anyways), so at max 9 levels even in Core. The non-magical wings might, or might not, be worth losing 3rd point of BAB.


EDIT: It also has some niché uses with casting PRCs with casting capping on level 10, such as Suel Arcanamach and Assassin. You can get extra slots on the highest level with Dragon Disciple.

[WinWin]

Paladin/Sword of the Arcane order is a decent entry.

Really only worth it if you're using bonus spell trickery on a class with access to all spells on their list though.

It's one of the ways Chameleon can get 8th level spell access, but that has more to do with Chameleon being good than DD. That class feature can be replicated by a feat which should tell you all you need to know.

For concept or fluff reasons I guess it could be fun, otherwise I would avoid it.

[big teej]

For concept or fluff reasons I guess it could be fun, otherwise I would avoid it.

my understanding is that he's after it because he's always wanted to play one.

so I imagine that would fall under "concept" reasons

[Eldariel]

Seriously, something that's not brought up enough: the first 4 levels are good for melee types. You get:

+4 Strength
+2 Natural Armor
Bite-attack (in other words, extra attack at -5)
Good Will-saves (alongside Fort)
3/4 BAB

Or, in more basic form:
+1 To Hit
+3 To Damage
+2 To AC
Bonus Attack at -5
+3 Will-saves

It's only basic stuff but compared to e.g. War Hulk, you end up comparatively in net positives in terms of To Hit, and probably composite damage thanks to the extra attack, and AC. It grants smallish numeric bonuses to all stats, but those are the stats you usually want bonuses in, and as it increases your Strength it goes great with Strength-checks (e.g. Trip, Bull Rush, things Fighters like to do) and company.

The problem is, of course, finding room for pure numeric buffs in your build and qualifying. When you have a level in caster, it'd be oh-so-easy to become a caster instead of staying a warrior and being meh. Duskblade, Suel Arcanamach and company enter it quite well outside Core though and in Core the melee classes offer little enough to make it worth it anyways.

[gorfnab]

Take a look at the Pathfinder Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/dragon-disciple). It's actually more playable than the 3.5. All you would really need to do to adapt back to 3.5 is use the 3.5 version's prereqs, saving throws, and skills. After that just use the class features of the Pathfinder version.

[HunterOfJello]

The pathfinder version of Dragon Disciple is pretty awesome. As far as the 3.5e version goes, it's just plain bad. It was a bad idea when it was written and the style of prestige class was obviously dropped immediately after the DMG came out.

[Thurbane]

There are a handful of other PrCs that require spell casting, but do not advance it, but yes, the two worst offenders can be found in the DMG (Dragon Disciple & Arcane Archer).

I've been toying with a Duskblade/Dragon Disciple/Soul Eater build - DD doesn't really add much, but it does make some aspects of SE easier to qualify for.

[HunterOfJello]

There are a handful of other PrCs that require spell casting, but do not advance it, but yes, the two worst offenders can be found in the DMG (Dragon Disciple & Arcane Archer).


I should have been clearer. I was referring to the mechanic of giving a PC bonus spells as the character levels up but no increase in caster level or actual spell progression. The class would be better off in the long run with a 3/10 spell progression instead of just 7 bonus spells split up across 10 levels.

[dextercorvia]

I should have been clearer. I was referring to the mechanic of giving a PC bonus spells as the character levels up but no increase in caster level or actual spell progression. The class would be better off in the long run with a 3/10 spell progression instead of just 7 bonus spells split up across 10 levels.

It has it's uses. Although, if you can stomach the goody two shoesness, and the feat requirements, Miracle Worker does the mechanic better.