Epic Divine Power

[mootoall]

So, I was reading through spells, I decided to reread Divine Power, yadda yadda yadda, I find something very interesting.

While the spell raises your BAB up to your character level, it doesn't limit it to +20, nor does it have any mention of its uses at Epic levels. So, I was wondering, if a cleric were to use this spell at, say, level 30, would it get +30 BAB on top of its Epic Attack Bonus?

[Yora]

By RAW it does work. But I thik most DMs would agree that the spell is supposed to give you the BAB of a fighter of your level. I think in 3.0 it was even worded that way.

[erikun]

This case has been brought up, along with questions of if Base Attack Bonus and Epic Attack Bonus stack (they are seperate bonuses) and if having absurdly high BAB grants an appropriate number of iterative attacks. Needless to say, Epic rules are already severely borked up and insane bonuses quite common, so there wasn't any official ruling one way or the other in this case.

It's pretty clear that the spell is only intended to give +20 BAB and not extend into epic territory, as your 100th level character shouldn't have +100 BAB, +40 EAB, and 20 iteratives. Then again, this very same character can also have stats in the 200+ range and end up wielding a +300 sword. A lot of epic campaigning tends to boil down to "what can I get away with" anyways.

[mootoall]

I intentionally didn't bring up the extra iteratives, because I was asking strictly RAW and I knew there weren't rules for iteratives for BAB 20+, but it seems that spell does give the heftiest bonus to attacks there is. Especially if you're playing it on, say, a Rainbow Warsnake build.

[Douglas]

Regarding iteratives, the Epic Level Handbook specifically caps iterative attacks at the 4 you get from +16 BAB. If you have +1000000 BAB, you will still only have 4 attacks at +1000000/+999996/+999992/+999988. The circumstance they expected this rule to be used for is monsters with more than 20 racial hit dice, as racial hit dice ignore the epic attack bonus rule (probably just so they didn't have to retcon existing monsters), but it applies just as well to Divine Power.

[erikun]

I intentionally didn't bring up the extra iteratives, because I was asking strictly RAW and I knew there weren't rules for iteratives for BAB 20+
Aww, but that would be the best part! Especially for something like a Thri-Kreen Soulbow with Multiweapon Fighting.

DM: Okay, what are you doing?
Player: I'm going to full attack.
*Pulls out a personal cement mixer, turns in on. Lots of clattering of dice can be heard.*
DM: What the heck is that?
Player: Oh, I figure I'll save time and roll everything together. Let me tell you, finding eighty different colored d20 dice was a lot of work! Not to mentioned matching damage dice for all my flaming frost shocking anarchic axiomatic bane psibane psychokinetic weapons. Clear off the table, I'm ready to roll!

[mootoall]

Even Epic monsters don't get extra iteratives with their extra BAB from RHD. They just end up getting better BAB than any PC because of it.

[MeeposFire]

Actually the last version of the PHB produced the special version (I believe it is the one with the leather cover) has a different text for divine power that limits it to BAB of 20.

[mootoall]

Actually the last version of the PHB produced the special version (I believe it is the one with the leather cover) has a different text for divine power that limits it to BAB of 20.

Huh, how very interesting. And this didn't make it into the SRD?

[MeeposFire]

Huh, how very interesting. And this didn't make it into the SRD?

Well it is kind of rare. I did not know about until somebody started quoting it in a similar discussion on the WotC boards.

EDIT: Here is the quote

Divine Power PHB deluxe edition pg.224 - Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level(max. +20; this effect may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.

Apparently the deluxe edition cost over $100 or something like that when it came out so that may be a big part of why it is not as well known.

[mootoall]

Hmm, how 'bout errata? I know that didn't always make it into the SRD, but does it mention that particular change?

[Cog]

Hmm, how 'bout errata? I know that didn't always make it into the SRD, but does it mention that particular change?
It'snot mentioned in the errata. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)

If it was something changed in a later print version, and not changed in the official OGL material, that'd be a very good reason for that new text to not be on the SRD sites - it'd be a copyright violation for them to make that change.

[ericgrau]

My PHB also caps it at 20, it's dated later than a friend's PHB that doesn't cap at 20, but it doesn't have any fancy leather cover.

It sucked for him in our epic game b/c GMW caps at +5, he didn't know that capped at 20, and pretty much every trick he pulled fell apart without having any backup options. I think I might look up too many things.

I've noticed minor things like that now and then, though it's rare. I think there's another mistake related to tower shields but I forget what it was.

[MeeposFire]

My PHB also caps it at 20, it's dated later than a friend's PHB that doesn't cap at 20, but it doesn't have any fancy leather cover.

It sucked for him in our epic game b/c GMW caps at +5, he didn't know that capped at 20, and pretty much every trick he pulled fell apart without having any backup options. I think I might look up too many things.

I've noticed minor things like that now and then, though it's rare. I think there's another mistake related to tower shields but I forget what it was.

Well being capped at 20 means he is still as good as every full BAB class in terms of attack bonus so he does not have it that bad.

[ericgrau]

Oh I suppose if you still add your epic attack bonus, I didn't think of it that way. Oops, ya I look up too many things, but too briefly. I also screwed up the save type on heal vs. undead.

[MeeposFire]

Oh I suppose if you still add your epic attack bonus, I didn't think of it that way.

Yep the spell just changes your BAB and is completely separate from your epic bonus which is the same for all classes.

[ericgrau]

Well EAB can often be used in place of BAB for all but iteratives. So I think originally we were doing it as BAB + EAB now equals your character level as BAB = CL, BAB + EAB = disgusting would have been nuts. Which then looked like it changed to BAB + EAB = 20 = suck. But adding EAB makes a lot more sense.

[Jarveiyan]

Well it is kind of rare. I did not know about until somebody started quoting it in a similar discussion on the WotC boards.

EDIT: Here is the quote

Divine Power PHB deluxe edition pg.224 - Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level(max. +20; this effect may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.

Apparently the deluxe edition cost over $100 or something like that when it came out so that may be a big part of why it is not as well known.

I'm not sure, however you might be talking about me. I have the PHB special edition, and did at least once bring up this information on the WoTC boards.

[MeeposFire]

I'm not sure, however you might be talking about me. I have the PHB special edition, and did at least once bring up this information on the WoTC boards.

Ah yes looking back at that it was you. Small world.:smallcool: