Physical Attributes of the Human Body

[DemLep]

I've was working a personal project and seem to have stumped myself.

I'm trying to figure out, without getting to in-depth, what physical attributes effect a fight and how do they effect each other.

An example of what I'm looking at would be speed (running speed or slow twitch muscle fiber). Height and strength/lean muscle both help in making a person faster. There is also a weight ratio to muscle needed though, that is to say the more weight you are moving the more strength you need to move it.

So, if I was to use only these factors in speed I would say that Height and Strength increases speed and weight decreases speed.

I'm not to worry about how much one affects the other, more just what attributes I should be looking at and how each one works in the whole. I have more that I have worked out, but it is still very incomplete, so any ideas would help a lot.

[valadil]

You don't mention reach, which is usually considered a big deal.

I asked about size in the Real World Weapons and Armor thread a couple months ago. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10836074#post10836074 I think the size questions went on for a couple pages.

[Liffguard]

Very, very complicated. Way too many interlocking variables. For example:


There is also a weight ratio to muscle needed though, that is to say the more weight you are moving the more strength you need to move it.

So, if I was to use only these factors in speed I would say that Height and Strength increases speed and weight decreases speed

It's not true that weight and speed are inversely proportional. Muscle is quite heavy, and required for speed. Sprinters are faster and generally larger than marathon runners.

In addition, and especially so for fighting, speed can be dependent on a huge number of biomechanical factors such as the leverage provided by the muscles' anchor points on the bones.

[DeadManSleeping]

1. "Affect", not "effect". Using "effect" there gives the sentence an entirely different meaning.

2. Pretty much every attribute imaginable affects your fighting ability, depending on the fight. Skeletal muscle strength. Skeletal muscle power. Heart health. Sensory capabilities. Reflexes. Balance. Limb proportion. Which muscles are stronger. The list goes on. Any attempt to be exhaustive will end up failing. You'll need to tailor your assessments to the project.

[Xuc Xac]

1. "Affect", not "effect". Using "effect" there gives the sentence an entirely different meaning.


Just to clarify this, "affect" basically means "to influence" (what the OP means to say) and "effect" means "to cause".

[Brother Oni]

Physical conditioning also plays a significant part in a fist fight. Unfortunately physical conditioning, despite its name, is mostly mental.

Essentially in an unarmed fight, you can boil down it the following very general terms:


Size - primarily influences reach and also affects weight and strength to a degree.
Strength - self explanatory, tied in to size
Fitness - how cardiovascularly fit you are. You may be substantially bigger and stronger than your opponent, but if you're too tired to keep your hands up after a minute, he's going to win.
Skill - general term for how good you are at fighting, including experience and reaction time.
Speed - how quick you are, both at manoeuvring and at speed of attacks. Affected by both weight and strength.
Weight - self explanatory, tied in to size, strength and fitness.
Endurance - whether you can take a punch, tied in to size, strength, weight and is partially influenced by fitness, but is mostly mental as described above.


As others have said, all these terms are very heavily interlinked - for example, the bigger you are, the more reach you have, the generally more heavy you are, with an associated strength increase.

The more muscle you have, the better your body is able to take impacts - for example part of the reason why big strong guys seem to be able to shrug off blows, is that the blow just bounce off their muscles with minimal damage. As previously stated, muscle also affects your speed, so theoretically, the more muscle you have, the better, right?
This is incorrect as you've identified the difference between slow and fast twitch muscles, but there's also the secondary issue of muscle bulk affecting your flexibility, for example your pectoral muscles being so over developed, you can't swing a punch properly.

Normally reach is a major advantage, but depending on the combat style/situation, it can be nullified or even turned into a disadvantage. Take a grappler or close in fighter against a tall striking art practitioner - if the grappler/fighter stays close, the tall person will be unable to use their reach and will have difficulty putting their full force into their attacks.

The various emphasis on the different attributes change significantly as well depending on the situation - a light contact tournament situation is very different to full contact, which again is different to when weapons are involved.

Skill is also a major issue - I would not be able to defeat my aikido sensei, despite being stronger and bigger.
Conversely, I've free-sparred with a purple belt female taikwondoist and was dominating as she didn't have the skill to counter my strength or weight advantage (I was a white belt at the time).

Basically if you want better advice, give us more details of the situation you'd like to model.

[Crow]

Speed is a byproduct of power. Higher power means moving more weight in less time. When throwing a punch, the weight moved is your arm (/legs/hips/torso of course).

It is easy to find people who are strong but not powerful, but much more difficult to find someone who is powerful but not strong. Strength gained from greater size is only usually only useful in a fight when accompanied by an increase in power, which isn't always the case (esp. with fat guys). Flexibility will only become a problem in more extreme situations.

Also, most fights are over in far less than a minute, so cardio doesn't play into it all that much.

[Brother Oni]

Speed is a byproduct of power. Higher power means moving more weight in less time. When throwing a punch, the weight moved is your arm (/legs/hips/torso of course).

It is easy to find people who are strong but not powerful, but much more difficult to find someone who is powerful but not strong.


Depends really on the punch.

Looking at this clip: Bruce Lee from Enter the Dragon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWiXyX4ixGs).
The final two punches he throws are fast swing punches, which derive their power from their high speed, rather than putting any strength into it - trying to do anything other than throwing your fist as fast as possible actually reduces the speed and hence power.

There's a similar technique in a style I practised (Southern Mantis) - a lot of the younger pupils could throw quite a strong swing punch, but when we got into the physical conditioning (grinding arms), they were considerably weaker.



Also, most fights are over in far less than a minute, so cardio doesn't play into it all that much.

Depends on the situation - a street fight, I agree.

A structured tournament or a 12 round title match, it becomes very important. I've seen people too exhausted to keep their hands because they got overly energetic in the first two rounds and simply got wiped on points in the third and final one.

[Force]

Use of weapons influences a fight as well. Someone will fight much differently with a knife or even just a set of brass knuckles as compared to fighting barehanded.

[Crow]

Depends really on the punch.

Looking at this clip: Bruce Lee from Enter the Dragon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWiXyX4ixGs).
The final two punches he throws are fast swing punches, which derive their power from their high speed, rather than putting any strength into it - trying to do anything other than throwing your fist as fast as possible actually reduces the speed and hence power.

Yes, but that speed does not occur without the power. In fighting, speed is created by rapid acceleration, which is pretty much the definition of power. You are correct that a great deal of the damage inflicted by some punches comes from the force of impact/speed. But that speed does not come without the power to begin with.

[DemLep]

Okay, I was going to quote and reply to everyone, but for the most part the same things where being brought up that I need to address.

It would be for hand to hand combat. For the purpose of this training, conditioning, and such would not be figured into this. Along the same lines sight, hearing, smell and similar senses can be ignored. The examples given by Brother Oni is more to the direction I'm looking.

Here are some examples of the kind of stuff I was thinking of:

Strength - Force behind the attack; affected by size.
Speed(slow twitch) - Endured speed; affected by height and strength.
Reflex(fast twitch) - Quick burst of speed; affected by something. <.<'
Flexibility - Range of motion; ...
Stamina - Ability to take a hit; affected by size and strength.
Height - How tall you are; nothing on this list.
Size - Umm.. girth(?); same as above.
Power - How hard you actually hit; affected by strength and reflex.

Well that's what I was thinking. Like I said, still very incomplete, but hopefully it helps.

[Worira]

But... You do conditioning to improve those attributes.

[Brother Oni]

It would be for hand to hand combat. For the purpose of this training, conditioning, and such would not be figured into this. Along the same lines sight, hearing, smell and similar senses can be ignored. The examples given by Brother Oni is more to the direction I'm looking.

Lethal combat and with or without weapons?

While I can see the reasoning to disregard techniques/styles, ignoring conditioning really skews the results as that affects almost every trait you've listed and mental conditioning is the primary determinator for endurance/ability to withstand pain and injury.

[Phishfood]

Lethal combat and with or without weapons?

While I can see the reasoning to disregard techniques/styles, ignoring conditioning really skews the results as that affects almost every trait you've listed and mental conditioning is the primary determinator for endurance/ability to withstand pain and injury.

Indeed. If the karate kid taught us anything, it taught us that conditioning is everything. Indeed, skill is possibly the most important. I'm quite sure that a slower weaker person who knows how to fight will beat a faster stronger opponent who doesn't. Think blacksmith vs squire. The blacksmith may be stronger and faster, but his skills are aimed at stationary lumps of metal.

Sand the floor!
Paint the fence!

I'll go get my coat.

[DeadManSleeping]

Flexibility - Range of motion; ...

This doesn't affect your fighting ability much. I've taken Aikido (a martial art that is almost all holds, locks, and throws) with someone who had muscle lockup issues. Basically, he was as inflexible as you could get without having difficulty functioning in day-to-day life. It didn't affect him much, except that I had to be careful at the end of techniques so that when I released him, he didn't have to spend a minute recovering. On the flipside, I am a very flexible person. When doing the techniques in class, other students have to go further before I can even feel pressure. However, the teacher, who executes the techniques with a lot of skill, hardly needs to at all. A well-executed joint lock will work on even the most flexible person. Mostly because a well-executed joint lock is severe enough to break things if the victim resists too much.

So, yeah, unless your flexibility is low or high enough to have significant impact on your everyday life, it won't affect your ability to fight.

[DemLep]

Lethal hand to hand fighting with no weapons.

It is not that I am fully ignoring skill, training, conditioning, style and the like. Just ignoring them for this. They will be applied on top of this. This is more of establishing a base.

As for Flexibility my reasoning isn't for Aikido purposes. I have study a few martial arts myself, do to personal reasons, I've been in and out of the arts my whole life. I often read about and watch videos on styles I have taken, wish to take or just catch my interest. That being said the thought in flexibility is more of one that certain moves require greater flexibility to execute properly.

[DeadManSleeping]

If you're talking some of the fancier kicks, sure, but being able to execute flashy moves is not really relevant to fighting ability. The most acrobatically demanding move I've ever seen actually used in a fight is a mule kick.

Granted, if you can't get a kick above your waist, yes, you're down a couple options. However, they're not options that you'll really find yourself missing as long as you don't try to use them. It changes your fighting style, but I wouldn't say it impacts your fighting ability.

[DemLep]

I would agree. Still I think it would affect character enough to influence which styles they use or how they use the style. It also might influence movement and dodge ability.