Ideas for Jazzing Up the Monk

[wayfare]

Hey all:

I'm working on a monk for a 10 level game and wanted a few ideas on how to give the monk a leg up. Anything is appreciated.

Right now, I know I am going to give the monk Divine Spell Access. I am not going to use maneuvers (as ToB is not used in this setting).

Thanks in advance for the input.

[TroubleBrewing]

(Like clockwork, I swear...)

Before you do any work yourself, I recommend taking a cursory look around these very forums to see if someone has already done this.

They have.

[blackjack217]

full bab, and the ability to treat unarmed weapons as 2 handed, a larger bonus to ac and some way to combo flurry and fast movement.

[Keld Denar]

Slap on Psychic Warrior power progression. It further emphasises the Wisdom focus of a Monk while allowing greater customization, resource management, and strength. PsyWar manifesting isn't so uber that it breaks the game, unlike divine casting, and is pretty much portable right out of the box. It caps at 6th level manifesting, which is good.

Plus, psychic powers = ki. Done deal.

EDIT: If you think that is too strong, simply knock off all of the monk's normal SLAs. Get rid of Abundant Step, Empty Body, Quivering Palm, etc. If the player wants those abilities, he can buy them back as Psychic Powers (Psionic Dim Door, etc).

[PollyOliver]

How much of a leg up do you want to give it? this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) fix here is pretty good, and bumps it up to around the level of the core ranger, which while not a paragon of awesomeness is pretty decently balanced.

The psywar suggestion is good, and will result in being a little more versatile and powerful than the fix above.

What do you mean by divine spell access? Making it a half-casting class like ranger or paladin? Because that also could help a lot, as long as you gave decent spells.

[wayfare]

How much of a leg up do you want to give it? this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) fix here is pretty good, and bumps it up to around the level of the core ranger, which while not a paragon of awesomeness is pretty decently balanced.

The psywar suggestion is good, and will result in being a little more versatile and powerful than the fix above.

What do you mean by divine spell access? Making it a half-casting class like ranger or paladin? Because that also could help a lot, as long as you gave decent spells.

The monk would actually have a full caster progression, but would have a very small selection of spells. Like 5-10, total (remember, the game only goes up to 10th level).

The spells would be the result of Ki-Based study and reflection, kinda like maneuvers, but with a spiritual bent.

[TroubleBrewing]

The monk would actually have a full caster progression, but would have a very small selection of spells. Like 5-10, total (remember, the game only goes up to 10th level).

The spells would be the result of Ki-Based study and reflection, kinda like maneuvers, but with a spiritual bent.

You've basically just described psionics.

Actually, you've just described the Psychic Warrior specifically. :smallbiggrin:

[Seerow]

You've basically just described psionics.

Actually, you've just described the Psychic Warrior specifically. :smallbiggrin:

I dunno, I'm not aware of many monks who have the ability to turn into a huge tentacle horror... Psionic Warriors have an alarming tendency to do that as they get to higher levels. Though I suppose a Psiwar who avoids Form of Doom and Expansion, and maybe a few other powers I can't think of offhand, could pull it off just fine.

[Keld Denar]

Mostly just Form of Doom. Expansion/Compression actually fits well with what I would imagine from a monk with total control over his body. Other powers I feel fit are Prowass, Inertial Armor, Biofeedback, Body Adjustment, Concealing Amorphia, Dimension Door(Psionic), Mind Blank(Personal), and a few others. Basically, anything on the PsyWar list that doesn't have a saving throw associated with it. That leaves out the acid breath weapon and a few of the other attack powers. Those powers aren't very good on a PsyWar anyway, since they don't generally have the high DCs that a Psion or Ardent would have because they get high level powers late and don't have as much of an emphasis on their manifesting stat compared to Str or Con.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh... it is monkday, isn't it?

What is your problem with ToB? Swordsage solves this issue. Failing that, as others have said, PsiWar progression fixes most of the problems.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Unarmed swordsage or what PollyOliver linked.

[Lord.Sorasen]

It's been done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmhP1RgbrrY

[Lateral]

What is your problem with ToB? Swordsage solves this issue. Failing that, as others have said, PsiWar progression fixes most of the problems.

He established that it isn't used in the setting. As in, doesn't exist, so it's kind of out.

You could give it Psychic Warrior progression, but you really might as well just play a Tashalatora Monk/Psychic Warrior; it's basically the same thing, but without the sucky class features.

[Treblain]

My idea for improving the monk was to give them domain spells. Domains are an existing mechanic, so you don't have to do any work. They give limited spells and an added ability, which works for the monk's flavor if you refluff them as some kind of monk-ish disciplines chosen based on their god or belief system. Start with one domain at first, then adding one or two more over the course of the class. Maybe two or three spells per day per spell level, and a new spell level every other level.

Since they're now divine casters, they can qualify for lots of PrCs and feats. The elemental domains give you turning, for more cool stuff.

Complaining that monks can't bypass DR? There's a domain that gives magic fang. Monks can't fly? Travel domain. Monks are weak fighters? Plenty of domains give Divine Power. Monks don't have much utility? Search through the domains until you find something useful.

[MeeposFire]

He established that it isn't used in the setting. As in, doesn't exist, so it's kind of out.

You could give it Psychic Warrior progression, but you really might as well just play a Tashalatora Monk/Psychic Warrior; it's basically the same thing, but without the sucky class features.

Th class features for a psychic warrior aren't that great outside of the actual manifesting. If a monk had the same exact manifesting I would probably take it over the psychic warrior unless I needed a bunch of bonus feats that the monk can't get or if I wanted to play using a class that uses armor.

[Telonius]

Hey all:

I'm working on a monk for a 10 level game and wanted a few ideas on how to give the monk a leg up. Anything is appreciated.

Right now, I know I am going to give the monk Divine Spell Access. I am not going to use maneuvers (as ToB is not used in this setting).

Thanks in advance for the input.

Monk with divine spell access? Sounds like Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist. Getting not-quite-all Cleric spells is a pretty powerful proposition.

[Mad Gene Vane]

You [I]really[I] want to fix a monk build, make sure the monk has good stats to take care of his MAD problem. :smile:

Just a twist on what others have written, if you want to make a monk more powerful, let him use ki points to purchase psychic warrior powers / divine spells / or arcane spells.

So at level 4 your monk would be able to use a point from his ki pool to either manifest psychic powers as a psiwarrior or cast spells from a clerics or sorcerer/wizard spell lists. Once he chooses what set of spells or psychic powers to use, he won't be able to change his choice.

Have spell progression follow a Palladin or Ranger for spells known and uses per day, so you have a template. You'll also need to decide what stat is the main one for DC's and uses per day for each set of spells / powers.

Maybe play around with the ki pool, so that more points of ki can allow him to jazz up a spell or psychic power.

[Cog]

Jazzing Up the Monk
Seems pretty easy to me. They already get Perform (any) as a class skill.

[Godskook]

There are plenty of good monk builds in splat 3.5, but few(if any) involve more than a light splashing of actual monk levels. I suggest you try builds involving:

Sacred Fist(Prestige class)
Enlightened Fist(Prestige class)
Tashalatora(feat)

Each basically merges monk with a more powerful class to form a far more reasonable power level with the rest of the game, while still giving the monk's 'flavor' and primary mechanical benefits.

[FMArthur]

A couple things you can do to make them at least useful alongside other melee classes instead of making them just spellcasters with unarmed strike tacked on:
Give them full BAB. There is NO reason they should not get full BAB when close quarters combat is all that they can do.
Give them Swift action movement up to their speed, with any Tumble and Jump movement included. Just being able to be simultaneously mobile and useful gives them a huge edge over other awful melee classes, fits their flavor perfectly and gives their class features a quality resembling synergy if you squint really hard.
Massively amplify their Jump checks and make falling only occur at the end of their turn to give them a chance to attack flying creatures. That means a full attack if they've Swift Moved. If you do this the whole Monk class might work out to more than an inferior version of weapon proficiency - it could actually fill combat a role that the others, even ToB, struggle mightily with. I'm not saying you should be able to jump up to a spellcaster attacking from "Long" spell range far up in the sky, but if you could just move vertically at a normal person's land speed, you could attack a flying monster using ranged weaponry or Flyby Attack. It's not like they don't already get some supernatural abilities and other feats of superhuman agility/strength, so this wouldn't be that out of place.

[Hiro Protagonest]

A couple things you can do to make them at least useful alongside other melee classes instead of making them just spellcasters with unarmed strike tacked on:
Give them full BAB. There is NO reason they should not get full BAB when close quarters combat is all that they can do.
Give them Swift action movement up to their speed, with any Tumble and Jump movement included. Just being able to be simultaneously mobile and useful gives them a huge edge over other awful melee classes, fits their flavor perfectly and gives their class features a quality resembling synergy if you squint really hard.
Massively amplify their Jump checks and make falling only occur at the end of their turn to give them a chance to attack flying creatures. That means a full attack if they've Swift Moved. If you do this the whole Monk class might work out to more than an inferior version of weapon proficiency - it could actually fill combat a role that the others, even ToB, struggle mightily with. I'm not saying you should be able to jump up to a spellcaster attacking from "Long" spell range far up in the sky, but if you could just move vertically at a normal person's land speed, you could attack a flying monster using ranged weaponry or Flyby Attack. It's not like they don't already get some supernatural abilities and other feats of superhuman agility/strength, so this wouldn't be that out of place.

The monk fix PollyOliver linked does this, except instead of full BAB, the attack bonus is boosted through class features, and they have standard action FoB instead of swift action movement.

[FMArthur]

No offense to Jiriku, but I stop reading a monk "fix" as soon as I see medium BAB.

[PollyOliver]

The monk fix PollyOliver linked does this, except instead of full BAB, the attack bonus is boosted through class features, and they have standard action FoB instead of swift action movement.

Edit: and also FMarthur

One of the ACFs lets you trade out wis to attack/damage and 2 skill points per level for full BAB instead.

Also, the bonus to tumble means you're tumbling 10 ft steps at way early levels; and flurry is not just a standard action but also an attack action for the purposes of spring attack and shot on the run.

Also edit: Though honestly, I would question why full bab is necessarily required. I think it depends on the role you envision monk fulfilling. He envisions it fulfilling the role of mobile attacker and skill monkey, ala rogue and swordsage. So I think medium BAB makes sense in that capacity. If you're looking for a different "role", it's an ACF.

[wayfare]

No offense to Jiriku, but I stop reading a monk "fix" as soon as I see medium BAB.

Don't look at the one I'm posting tomorrow :smallbiggrin:

I agree, if all that the monk can do is combat, it should have full BaB. But if you are trying to expand its capabilities elsewhere, full BaB might be too much.

Question: Would folding the Ninja Ki abilities into the monk help the class out enough for a tier bump?

[Hiro Protagonest]

No offense to Jiriku, but I stop reading a monk "fix" as soon as I see medium BAB.

Empty hand gives them wisdom to attack (in addition to, not in place of, strength or dex), and ki strike gives them a flat-out attack and damage bonus that scales with level.

Edit: also, Jiriku's fix makes it a strong skillmonkey, with 8+int skill ranks per level, so wayfare has the right idea for the BAB thing.

[Godskook]

No offense to Jiriku, but I stop reading a monk "fix" as soon as I see medium BAB.

Then I suggest you give swordsage another try, cause it really is a good class.

[Leon]

a Saxophone

[wayfare]

a Saxophone

I see what you did there!

Ok, I'm almost done with the class, but I had an idea about the spell list. As i was going through cleric spells, I realized that many of the spells I wanted to benefit the monk were actually druid and wu-jen spells. Does that make any thematic sense? I'm imagining a monk who uses spells with a more elemental flavor, a'la Avatar.

[wayfare]

Here is the class: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11210396#post11210396