Removing Class Skills

[EnnPeeCee]

Just an idea that I had recently, what would be the effect of removing class-skills from the game? In other words, any character can put ranks in any skill 1:1 up to the max cap.

It would allow players to customize their characters more to their liking, but also qualify for some PrCs and feats easier. Also in the existing state of the game, you'd see everyone put points into tumble and balance, but I see that as more a problem with those skills than with this idea.

Trapfinding and the like would still need to remain exclusive to the classes that already have it.

I'm not claiming its a good idea yet, just an idea.
Anyway, thoughts?

[Urpriest]

Well it's a big boost to the Giacomo Monk. Yeah...

[Kaje]

Suddenly factotum's not quite as awesome. Still awesome, but not quite as.

[Kantolin]

The only skill you may want to really consider is use magic device.

Otherwise, eh. I do this in all of my games - the only skills I leave as 'class skills' are UMD and Speak Language, and it would in no way be unfair to allow speak language as well.

It especially helps fighters, who now can spot or listen. Rogues still get to skill monkey better due to 8+int, but it doesn't really hurt much.

Keep an eye open on PrC access, and it'd be fine.

[BlueInc]

If you haven't seen how Pathfinder handles skills, you might want to take a look at it. You may be pleasantly surprised.

[Ravens_cry]

If you haven't seen how Pathfinder handles skills, you might want to take a look at it. You may be pleasantly surprised.
+1 to this. Now a person who decides to put ranks in something not on their class list can still do more then terrible, rewarding the investment, but someone who is will do better. Also, it makes multi-classing less of a headache.

[Hirax]

Rather than removing class skills consider simply cutting the cost of the first 5 ranks in half, and rather than following D&D's fixed set of class skills for each class, consider making it so that players can actually choose some or all of their class skills. IE, rangers get knowledge (nature) and survival automatically, and can then pick 8~ other class skills.

[EnnPeeCee]

All good input. I really should take a look at pathfinder, I've been meaning to for a while.

[Seerow]

If you haven't seen how Pathfinder handles skills, you might want to take a look at it. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Another +1 here. I don't care much for most of pathfinder, but its skills are one aspect I like.

[myancey]

My group has always done that. It allows players more customization and very few classes rely on skills for class abilities...and these class abilities usually come with class skills.

What you'll find is that some of the prestige classes come more easily. Take a Sorcerer/Pale Master for example. Normally PM needs knowledge religion, requiring a much needed feat if a Sorcerer is to do it. This class stacks with the Sorcerer really well since its touch abilities have saves based on Charisma.

So you'll encounter a few issues like that--but I haven't found it too difficult to incorporate. It can be nice to pick the skills you want, especially if your a fighter or something.

[Curmudgeon]

For many classes this might be a good thing. I strongly suggest you keep the existing rules for all full spellcasting classes, though. You're not serving other classes very well if spellcasters have an easier time.

[myancey]

For many classes this might be a good thing. I strongly suggest you keep the existing rules for all full spellcasting classes, though. You're not serving other classes very well if spellcasters have an easier time.

I dunno. Can't imagine most casters suddenly being epically broken just because they don't have to worry about cross-class skills. Most of them will still be focused on the same stuff anyway. The skills normally associated with full casters are a lot more necessary to the these casters than other skill/class combos.

Removing cross class skills should be a boon to all players, not just the ones who choose to have classes outside of casting.

[Curmudgeon]

I dunno. Can't imagine most casters suddenly being epically broken ...
OK, so you've got a failure of imagination right there ... :smallwink:

Removing cross class skills should be a boon to all players, not just the ones who choose to have classes outside of casting.
It will be much less of a boon to classes with a large skill list, like Rogues and Scouts. That means you're making classes with a small skill list relatively more powerful at the expense of the skillful classes. I certainly don't mind that for Fighters, but making full spellcasters even more powerful compared to the skillful classes is just a really bad idea.

If you're going to address a problem, try not to create new problems, or worsen existing problems, while doing so. That's a sound guideline.

[myancey]

It will be much less of a boon to classes with a large skill list, like Rogues and Scouts. That means you're making classes with a small skill list relatively more powerful at the expense of the skillful classes. I certainly don't mind that for Fighters, but making full spellcasters even more powerful compared to the skillful classes is just a really bad idea.

If you're going to address a problem, try not to create new problems, or worsen existing problems, while doing so. That's a sound guideline.

I see the point you're saying. But think about it--the wizard is likely going to be getting the most skill points of full casters (with maybe an exception or two). He's gotta have Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledges, Craft skills, etc. (If he's going to play to his strengths.) I'm failing to see how broken it would be to add swim to his repertoire of skills.

Plus, we're not addressing an actual problem so much as discussing variant possibilities. A good DM can roll with anything 3.5 throws at him...except Beholder Mages :smallbiggrin:. And this DM was hoping to allow for more customization.

I was simply saying that he should let all players try it. He can tell his casters beforehand that if this variant rule breaks them more than normal, he'll get rid of it then. At least then they have a chance to try it out. Knowing this, some casters may opt for an eclectic grouping of skills to avoid them being taken away.

But don't ostracize half the party from the start. DM's do that too much--when all they actually have to do is decide to get rid of it mid-game instead. It's that simple, and players are usually thankful that you tried.