Help building a pacifist monk

[jaradaj]

Hi all, this is my first post so please be patient with me. This Sunday i will be playing in my very first campaign of D&D 3.5 and i had decided on playing a pacifist monk. From what i understand from the DM we will be in a military regiment protecting a wall of sorts, starting at lvl 1. The DM is very open to feats and what books we can use, all i have to do is ask him and he'll say yes and no, since i don't really understand the world setting since this is my first d&d game.

Anyways, the idea i had was a monk that prefers not to hurt anyone, but won't hesitate to grapple and subdue an enemy, or grapple and allow my compatriots to hit them. I was hoping to continue onto a homebrew revamp on reaping brawler found here;
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11036.0

I also thought i could get some levels in Tattooed Monk for tats that would give me abilities i could use while in combat (ie buffing, healing, etc). I could also see myself taking some swordsage for the stances and maneuvers if they helped me from having to throw a punch in combat.

What i figure is leveling in monk up till i can enter the prestige classes, but what i don't know is what feats i should take to optimize my nonlethal grappling abilities. Any help from here would greatly be appreciated, even if it's just a feat name and what book i could find it in. I know i'm basically gimping myself by not using the monks full combat potential that's why i'm asking for help.

[myancey]

First off, I'd recommend not making your 'pacifist' style the vow of peace (or nonviolence) covered in BoED. I find it very limiting--even if a few of those stacked feats make for a disgustingly high AC. It can be a fun character to play..but not on a first time thing.

I'm not going to worry about optimization, focusing instead on the fluff I enjoy.

Check out Vow of Poverty in BoED. Playgrounders have deemed this feat sub-par, despite the bonuses you receive every level.

Robillar's Gambit for high levels, coupled with a high dex and the 3 Combat Reflexes feats they offer. (Regular, improved, and greater?).

I'd work toward Saint, a template in BoED. It can be difficult to get to, but makes you super good at defense with all the immunities and resistances you get.

The Tattooed Monk is a pretty cool class--ignore some of the tattoos the pre-built one has and actually take the good ones they offer.

Monk's belt makes for a great item to save for (provided you didn't go BoED).

Ignore flurry of blows at low levels--I tend to think they're pretty useless.

Anyway, I don't play many monks. This is mostly random thoughts while away from my books--working with the NPC monk ideas I've had.

[NecroRick]

Here's some grapple related feats:

http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/search.html?keyword=grapple

I also at one point wanted to take a pacifist monk. The problem is that Monk in D&D isn't designed that way.

You should have a look at fighting defensively, subdual damage etc. Maybe dip Cleric (at higher levels) for things like Hold Person. Going down the grapple route is interesting. Being bigger (Enlarge et al) gives big bonuses to grappling, and a high strength is important.

[Psyren]

Vow of Nonviolence is actually fine, and can give your stunning fist DC a much-needed boost. I'm not sure how it would work for a grappler though.

Vow of Peace needs to be taken behind the woodshed. It turns you into the party nanny and invites DM screw like honey invites bears.

[NecroRick]

I find the vows very bad in general. If you want the flavour of taking a vow of non-aggression, just do that. Roleplay it. Taking vows simply to get the massive bonuses is extremely distasteful.

For a defensive Monk I'd prefer to do something like spending attacks from the flurry in order to get moar defense, or blocking, or even just a 20% miss chance. With regard to flavour I'd much rather have a character that can avoid 120 points of damage than one that can dish out 120 points of damage.

[myancey]

I find the vows very bad in general. If you want the flavour of taking a vow of non-aggression, just do that. Roleplay it. Taking vows simply to get the massive bonuses is extremely distasteful.


In regards to vow feats--if you are going to be taking a big penalty, you should receive some measure of reward for your effort. But when I DM, it means you have to strictly adhere to the feat rules. If they took a vow without the feat, I'm usually more lenient.

[mootoall]

Just make sure to pick your maneuvers carefully. I don't know how many of them are compatible with grappling, but if you want to focus on non-lethal damage, lowering their HP first is a good way to make sure their lethal damage is exceeded by their non-lethal. Shadow Hand also has some SoL maneuvers too, I think.

[King Atticus]

Robillar's Gambit for high levels, coupled with a high dex and the 3 Combat Reflexes feats they offer. (Regular, improved, and greater?).


This tree is awesome especially for this type of build because:


Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

So if you have a high dex you can pummel (3 attacks after every swing they take at you up to your dex mod) anyone that takes a swing at you and put them down without doing permanent damage. The only problem is as a Monk you have a lot of ability scores you need to pump up so it can get a little hard to pull off.

[darksolitaire]

One of my friends once played pacifist cleric focused on healing. That seriously annoyed rest of the party as well as their players, and changed the game focus on what the cleric would and would not do. He was also almost worthless in combat.

Clerics are considered tier 1 class and monks are tier 5. If you really are going to play pacifist monk, listen to the good people here and optimise. I also highly suggest that you speak to rest of your gaming group about what kind of game you are playing.

[Psyren]

Since you're grabbing Tattooed Monk, here are some tattoos you will want:

NOTE - there is no reason to get 10 levels of tattooed monk! You get your last tattoo at level 9 (read: clvl 14).

Chameleon - this one justifies the entire PrC, as it gives you supernatural (read: undispellable) Alter Self. Start out as an outsider like a Neraphim (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2) or Aasimar - or a construct/fey (Warforged/Duskling etc) for best results. (Though there are some nice humanoids you can turn into as well, like a Troglodyte.)

Crab - DR 10/magic by level 14; not great but not bad either.

Crane - This gets you the poison immunity and timeless body you're missing out on by not staying in monk.

Falcon - Fear immunity, can be very handy.

Monkey - Passive bonuses to a variety of useful skills (up to +5.) They're competence bonuses though, so you may want to skip this if you have a bard.

Ocean - You never get hungry, thirsty or sleepy. Campaign-dependent. (Obviously a warforged wouldn't need this.)

Phoenix - gives you the Diamond Soul you missed by not staying in monk. from SR 15 - SR 24.

Tortoise - treat a skill you don't know as if trained, and as if you had ranks in it your class level, tattoos/day. UMD is the obvious choice here but there are others you can use it on, like Knowledge. This combos well with Chameleon if your DM requires knowledge-rolls to learn about something exotic you want to shapeshift into.

Wasp - Supernatural Haste, great if dispels are flying everywhere or you don't have time to lower your SR (from Phoenix) for a buff.

[Person_Man]

You could buff your Stunning Fist with Pharaoh's Fist (Sandstorm) or Freezing the Lifeblood (Complete Warrior, though it has a high BAB requirement).

You may wish to consider a pacifist Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) and/or Apostle of Peace instead of the Monk/Tattooed Monk. Knight has higher AC and HD, his Knight Challenge abilities get a big bonus from the feats (they're Cha based), and Test of Mettle makes enemies attack you (breaking their weapons).

[jaradaj]

The more I look at it the more I'm beginning to think that the nonviolent aspect of my character would best be fluff. Although I could still show that fluff decision with the feats I pick, so anything that has to do with non aggressive attacking with grappling. IE throws, trips, choke holds, disarms....

I saw some great stuff in setting sun stuff in tome of battle such as the throws. I'm now wondering if the monk class is the way to go as well, or would it be better as fluff?

My original idea was human, monk, using the homebrew feat for Clever wrestling found in the spoiler in my first post. From there I would work toward swordsage (not sure if this is better than war blade or crusader). I'm not even sure how those classes work. Are they prestige classes, starting classes, or what?

Oh one more question that's bugging me. If I go with weapon finese can I use dex instead of str to calculate grapple stuff?

[dextercorvia]

I played a non-violent wandering cleric, once. Spells were Command, Sanctuary, Calm Emotions, and Suggestion. He had reasonable diplomacy. Healing was covered, as was utility like Shatter, Fly, Dispel Magic, and Teleport.

He was very monk like, except he never rolled on the ground in his pajamas.

[jaradaj]

What's your opinions on Monk X/paladin Y/justicar Z

Add into that Ascetic Knight, to add paladin and monk levels together. I feel the lawful good alignment is really what i'm looking for in my pacifist idea, while justicar has got some really good non-lethal options that can add to grappling.

[Gwendol]

For good grappling, tripping, etc you need to be able to increase in size or play a goliath (effectively large for those particular attacks/actions, however with medium reach).
Knight or cleric can do all that, and be good at it, though getting improved grapple without combat expertise through Monk is not bad.

Go for strength, and just enough dex to give you extra AoO's. (get a dex-boosting item later on?)

Since you start at lvl 1 take monk and improved grapple, then build from there. At least you have the foundation done.

[jaradaj]

So i checked with my dm and he says no to goliath. I'm thinking on just doing Human, monk2 (3 feats i'll need for 2 levels), then going to paladin with justicar.

For feats i'll get improved trip, disarm, stand still, Ascetic Knight. Switching out flurry with decisive strike option for monk, not planning on getting improved grapple since justicar gets it so i just have to last till then. Add 2 levels of crusader or swordsage for stances and the throwing moves.


Can anyone else think of any feats that would help me?
Is there a way to grapple more than one enemy (a feat or racial special)?
What bout armor? Should i be using any at all or?
What bout giving up the mount from paladin in exchange for charging smite? Charge would be beneficial for a grappler, no?

[Lord.Sorasen]

The more I look at it the more I'm beginning to think that the nonviolent aspect of my character would best be fluff. Although I could still show that fluff decision with the feats I pick, so anything that has to do with non aggressive attacking with grappling. IE throws, trips, choke holds, disarms....

I saw some great stuff in setting sun stuff in tome of battle such as the throws. I'm now wondering if the monk class is the way to go as well, or would it be better as fluff?

My original idea was human, monk, using the homebrew feat for Clever wrestling found in the spoiler in my first post. From there I would work toward swordsage (not sure if this is better than war blade or crusader). I'm not even sure how those classes work. Are they prestige classes, starting classes, or what?

Oh one more question that's bugging me. If I go with weapon finese can I use dex instead of str to calculate grapple stuff?

Swordsage is a base class. Funny you should bring it up, actually... I'm not certain if it still works for pacifist monk, and I'm personally not the most fond of tomb of battle, but pretty much everyone else ever really loves it. The swordsage has a noted section in adaptation that gives it unarmed progression and I think AC like a monk as well.

So basically they're base classes, and really good ones at that, that would bump your character from tier 5 to tier 3.